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Trading Ryan Howard

The Ryan Howard story is well known at this point: prodigious power, not getting any younger at age 25, clearly too good for the minor leagues, and blocked by franchise centerpiece Jim Thome and his mega-contract.  Howard's future is now, but probably not here: The near-universal opinion is that the Phillies will trade him, either for a piece GM Ed Wade believes could help the team contend in 2005--pitchers Ted Lilly of Toronto and Pittsburgh's Kip Wells have been among the rumored names--or, if the team falls from contention, a package of prospects.

Star-divide

Much as some Phils phans might instead wish for a miracle trade of Thome, it's not going to happen. Even without considering that he remains the team's signature player--something the PR-conscious Phillies surely will take into account--it doesn't make much sense from a baseball standpoint. Thome's value right now is as low as it could possibly be; in all likelihood, with his balky back and that albatross of a contract, the Phillies couldn't give him away without paying a big chunk of his salary. Keep in mind also that with a winter of rest and rehab, he's still a good bet to put up solid numbers in 2006, and a Thome trade just makes no sense.

Fifty years ago, the Phils might well have let Howard rot in the minors until the incumbent moved on; today, with so much more media attention on the minor leagues and a restive fan base looking for possible saviors, they can't. And just from a roster management standpoint, they shouldn't: any reasonable trade will yield more value for the team than would keeping Howard on the bench or in Triple-A. So it's almost inconceivable that he'll start 2006 with the organization.

The problem is that regardless of whether the Phils are buyers or sellers this July, Howard isn't the easiest commodity to move. First of all, it's questionable whether a contending team would risk entrusting ample playing time to a rookie who strikes out once in every four plate appearances. And given the relative ease of finding cheap first-base options worth a flyer --Chris Shelton?--it's uncertain that a rebuilding club would want to part with the prospects the Phillies might demand in return for a player with Howard's potential.

Howard's an odd duck, as he could be both a short-term asset for a contender looking to win now and a potential cornerstone for a club thinking about 2007 or beyond. In limited time last September and this year, he's shown that he's not overmatched at the big league level--an .808 OPS with 9 doubles and 5 home runs in 103 at-bats-- and that his tremendous minor-league power numbers will translate to the big leagues. Baseball Prospectus' PECOTA projection system forecast Howard to put up a .259/.341/.508 line in 2005; this was before he rained unholy death on International League pitchers for the first three months this season, slugging 16 home runs in 210 at-bats with an OPS of nearly 1.200. Given that, and his solid major-league numbers for this season even after a 1-for-18 start following his May callup, he's ready to play, and contribute, right now.

But as Howard gets further into his big-league career, will he grow into anything more than a strikeout-prone bomber?  If he masters the strike zone at the highest level, maybe he grows up to be David Ortiz; if not, perhaps one day he'll be trading stories of boring glory days with J.R. Phillips about the baseballs they sent flying into the rural Pennsylvania night, once upon a time.

Given these circumstances, what team might match up best in a deal for Howard? Let's start with the contenders. If the Phillies are really set on trading Howard now for maximum value, this is probably the group to target: the only other trade candidate at first base with potentially equal impact is Kansas City's Mike Sweeney. But Sweeney is six-and-a-half years older, carries a 2005 price tag about 30 times that of Howard (and upwards of $20 million beyond this season), is a chronic injury risk, and--by dint of having spent his career with the hapless Royals--has about as much pennant race experience as Howard, for GMs who are into that sort of thing.

Contenders with some need at first base might include Boston (current starters: Kevin Millar and John Olerud), Anaheim (Darin Erstad), Atlanta (Adam LaRoche, Julio Franco), the Mets (Brian Daubach), and San Diego (Mark Sweeney). It's dubious that the Phils would trade with division rivals, so that limits the market immediately by omitting Atlanta and the Mets. Anaheim is fine using Erstad at first base; he doesn't slug enough for the position, but the team management loves him and they have other in-house options (Casey Kotchman) anyway.

Both the Red Sox and Padres have young players who should be of interest to the Phillies. Boston catcher Kelly Shoppach could be the centerpiece of a trade package, and the Sox have decent depth on the mound and, in the lower levels of their system, in the outfield. San Diego's patience is at an end with third baseman Sean Burroughs, who has yet to develop but is still just 24, and the Padres' organization is deep in power-hitting infielders and fireballing young pitchers. Putting aside for now the question of whether we really want Ed Wade swimming with sharks like Theo Epstein or Kevin Towers, there might be a "there" there.

How about non-contenders?  Rebuilding clubs without a long-term contractual obligation or obvious heir apparent at first base include: Detroit, Kansas City, Houston, and San Francisco. Perhaps there is the potential for a deal with each of these clubs, but then the question becomes: Why would the Phillies do this now as opposed to November, when the market might look more favorable?

If the Phils are going to move Howard now, the best deal out there might be to package him with one of the Phils' short relievers in a trade with the Red Sox. Boston closer Keith Foulke has struggled with injuries and ineffectiveness this year, and I'm very skeptical that Curt Schilling, a perfectionist who greatly relies upon preparation and visualization, is well suited physically or psychologically for the short relief role he's evidently about to take. Howard plus Billy Wagner or Ugueth Urbina could give Boston a tremendous short-term boost, lifting them above Chicago and Anaheim as the AL pennant favorite, and Howard's relative youth and low expense would make a fine addition to Boston's powerful but aging lineup in 2006 and beyond.  Shoppach is regarded as a strong defender with solid power and on-base skills, not unlike Boston incumbent Jason Varitek--and, like Howard, he has nowhere to go with Varitek inked through 2008. Getting him and a nearly-ready starting pitcher like lefty Abe Alvarez or hard-throwing Anibal Sanchez, plus perhaps a third prospect, would represent decent value for Howard and Urbina.

But there's another option that the team is evidently considering: they could keep Howard around after Thome returns from the Disabled List. He'd immediately become the most dangerous bat on the Phillies bench, and could spell the veteran by starting once or twice a week. Limited playing time might not be the best thing for Howard, who could struggle without regular work--and in doing so, possibly depress his trade value--but at least would provide the Phillies with a hedge against Thome making a third trip to the DL this season.

And in the long term, this might work out. If Howard is playing a role of some significance with the big team, he's a lot less likely to be traded this summer. If he helps lead the team into postseason play, he'll probably never have to pay for a drink in Philadelphia again. And if the Phillies don't make the playoffs, there's a decent chance that someone other than Ed Wade will be sitting in the GM's office next winter, trying to figure out how to solve the Ryan Howard problem.

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We've been over this and you disagree but...
hear me out.

What about a Phils-Mets trade.

Mets get:
Burrell
Da. Bell
Howard

Phils get:
Wright
Cameron
H. Bell

Why the Phils do this:
Get salary flexibility
Get awesome 3B.

Why the Mets do this:
Improve outfield
Get slugging 1B they need
Get Met Killer Burrell who NY fans/media love.

Now, I have a hard time seeing how the Mets pull the trigger on trading Wright, but I really do think they value Burrell alot and if Howard could be spun just right, it could ease the blow of trading Wright.

Or we could omit the Howard Wright part of the deal, keep David Bell, and make them throw in another prospect in addition to or in place of Heath Bell.

by J. Gambino on Jul 12, 2005 1:29 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

disagree?
I'd probably empty out the Phils system to get David Wright... I just don't think the Mets would move him under any circumstances.

The Burrell part of the trade is interesting too, but not as clear-cut. Great as Pat has been in Shea, he's put up most of his '04-'05 value in CBP. I'm not sure that any smart team (and the Mets are close enough, Kazmir deal notwithstanding) would give up serious talent for Pat.

And while I like Cameron and I think the Mets would move him, they wouldn't want an OF back since they're looking to clear a position for Victor Diaz.

The Mets do need a masher at 1b, though. With Piazza coming off the books after this year and their TV network about to get rolling, it's not inconceivable to me that they could have some interest in Thome for 2006, if he comes back and plays well this season.

by dajafi on Jul 12, 2005 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trade Wright?
I don't see the Mets doing it, not unless they were to get an All Star calibre player in return.  Wright is super-hyped up there to such a degree that his perceived value to the Mets exceeds his (considerable) actual value.  Never gonna happy, though I'd do the trade you propose.

by Laaaaazzz on Jul 12, 2005 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok...
This is the sort of cold water I need thrown on me (though it's interesting to point out that had I proposed a Kazmir for Zambrano trade you woulda laughed me out of the building...)

I disagree with one part of the equation though: the Mets are not dead set on clearing out room for Diaz. I think they're more intent on moving Cameron and if they found someone who made sense to them, they'd do it, and I think Burrell makes sense to them. I also think they're not going to hold the ballpark against him especially since he's had mojo in Shea before.

by J. Gambino on Jul 12, 2005 6:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wade's MO
Refresh my memory on two things:

1) Does Wade eat money often in trades?

2) Does Wade ever trade for guys without major league experience?

by David S. Cohen on Jul 12, 2005 10:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

To answer the questions
At least, from what I recall.

1. I don't think Wade has ever eaten money in trades.  He seems to instead just take back sufficient salary to balance things out (e.g. adding Timlin to the Rolen trade; adding Martinez to the Polanco trade).

Similarly, he rarely has gotten salary relief when taking on big contracts.  We took on the full extent of Wagner and Milton's contracts (both of which I thought was crazy to do) and Millwood's and Wendell's contracts as well.  Lofton this past winter is the only time I think that he got some money from the other team.

2. Rarely and generally only when he trades someone with limited major league experience.  He traded Wendell Magee Jr for a minor league pitcher (Sismondo or somesuch).  I think he picked up a minor league pitcher when we traded Ducey to Toronto, but we eventually released the guy (and traded Morandini to get Ducey back).

He did get minor leaguer Doug Nickle for Greg Jefferies, but that was more of a salary dump that actively acquiring Nickle -- in fact, he was pretty much just a live body and it was a suprise he developed.

by Laaaaazzz on Jul 12, 2005 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What ESPN says
On their webcasts this morning on Phillies Topics:

"Jeff (Tampa)
Do the Phillies have a chance at this point, or should they be selling their vets?  Any chance of holding Ryan Howard and selling Jim THome?

HOWIE SCHWAB
I think Thome is staying put, though Howard has shown some impressive flashes when up. Realize that the wild card race is still in play, though not as close as the AL is. I think the Phillies have to get out of the gate well in the second half or maybe Ed Wade and company will dump off some players. Still within 7 1/2 in the NL East, and I wonder if Washington can hang on. Atlanta gets back Hudson and Hampton so the Braves could win the division."

"Ben (Phila): Tim, please tell me that Ed Wade is not going to trade the Phillies prospect Ryan Howard just to "prove" this year's team (with Thome, his signature signing) can actually succeed...

 Tim Kurkjian: (11:25 AM ET ) I think they will be hesitant to trade Ryan Howard, especially now that he's gotten a few hits in the big league in the last week. But, the Phillies expectations were also so high that they really need to win this year, which means they might make a deal to try to salvage this season. My guess is, they're not going to the playoffs and they shouldn't trade Ryan Howard for a quick fix this year. "

BTW, I like how the standard rules of english are ignored in the poll question. On that note, I most have to hope they keep Ryan Howard.

by fjg123 on Jul 12, 2005 12:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Trade Thome
I'm moving into the trade Thome camp.  I don't think it's as impossible as you'd think, that is, if the Phils were willing to eat a significant portion of his contract.

Right now, they're on the hook for another $43.5 million over the next three years (by one article I just looked at, $12.5M in 2006, $14M in 2007, and $14M in 2008, with a $3M buyout in 2009).  Ryan Howard, over the next three years, will cost about $1M total until 2008 when he'll be eligible for arbitration.  Say he's done well and gets $5M.  That's $6M over the next three years.

If the Phils were to eat say $10M/year over the length of Thome's remaining contract, they'd still be saving themselves almost $9M total over the next three years.

And, at a cost of $2.5M, $4M, $4M, and a $3M buyout (or $9M option) don't you think there'd be some takers for Thome, even with his bad back and age?  A possible 40HR guy for that price?  Especially on an AL team that can use him at DH?  I can't believe there wouldn't be several teams jumping at that opportunity.

by David S. Cohen on Jul 12, 2005 12:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

instead of Howard
Trade Wagner to the Red Sox -- who need him -- for Shoppach, Youklis and an arm.

by ricky otero on Jul 12, 2005 3:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i wonder...
if they'd do Urbina for Shoppach, provided the Phils threw in some money. Probably not, but I'd start with that and then maybe move up to Wagner and the package you describe--or Wagner plus Howard for some real swag.

by dajafi on Jul 12, 2005 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Logical inconsistency
I don't understand the resistance to trading Thome (because his value is low) while not wanting to trade to trade Howard (while he's doing well).  Actually I do; it's human nature--you hate to get cheated in a trade either way.  In the first case b/c Thome recovers; in the second case b/c Howard turns into the next David Ortiz.

Well, you have to make a move one way or the other.  And no, you don't build the club along the lines of Abreu in CF, Howard in LF, Burrell in RF or 3B or Thome at 3B, etc. b/c that's asking for Yankeesque defensive mediocrity.

Either:

  1.  Bet on a Thome hot streak for a month AND hooking a trade to a team like the Yankees (anyone else?) to get rid of his contract  OR
  2.  Bite the bullet and trade Howard realizing the best one can get is a pitcher.
Ryan Howard reminds me of trap for monkeys made from coconuts where there's a slit just big enought for a hand to reach in for the sweet fruit, but is too small for the clenched fist to pull out, thus the monkey's greed causes it to get trapped.  There is room enough to have either Howard or Thome, but trying to have both just won't work.

I'm very sympathetic b/c as a D'backs fan I was an Erubiel Durazo supporter and didn't want Mark Grace around.  I like you 3 true outcome sluggers.  But I'd rather be on the searching side than on the holding end.

-Steve

by unc84steve on Jul 13, 2005 3:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why do you have to trade one?
At this point, I think trading either is a bad idea.  Unless Thome shows he's healthy and is back, I simply do not want to give up Howard.  I think his relatively undervalued by other clubs and he's worth more to us on our team than whatever he'd bring in return.

Personally, I'm leaning more and more towards the idea that our goal should be to rid ourselves of Thome's contract rather than trade Howard.  I think if Thome were to go on waivers after Aug 1 and was taken, I'd just let the other team take him for nothing if it meant getting rid of the contract.  That's simply a lot of money that would get taken off the table and I feel Howard has more future value (esp relative to cost) than Thome at this point.

by Laaaaazzz on Jul 13, 2005 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really don't see why Thome can't be traded
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that a team would absolutely love to take Thome if the Phils picked up enough money. And, it makes total financial sense to pick up that money if the team leaves itself a bit of an advantage over the course of the next 3 years (with Howard's salary factored in). Lots of teams would want Thome at $3M to $5M per year for the next 3 years. The Phils can do that.

by David S. Cohen on Jul 13, 2005 9:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Tell ya what
For Wagner and Howard I'll give you Shoppach, Abe Alvarez, and either Alejando Machado (23 year old solid defensive middle infielder playing in AAA) or Kenny Perez (24 year old Easter League All-Star who makes good contact with the ball).

by brian38 on Jul 13, 2005 10:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wagner for Shoppach, Youkiles, and Alvarez
Another message board for Phils' phans posted something recently about talks heating up (source is a New England sports reporter) on this trade. I'd be very happy to do that.

by David S. Cohen on Jul 13, 2005 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For both Wagner and Howard?
I'd say no.  I like both Shoppach and Alvarez, but neither IMHO has large upside.  If we are trading both Wagner and Howard, we better get someone with star potential.  

That said, I'd gladly do the other mentioned deal of Wagner alone for Youkilis, Shoppach and Alvarez right now.

by Laaaaazzz on Jul 13, 2005 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I figured that'd be a tough sell
But I had to try to at least -try- to get something for nothing.

I think that'd be too much to give up for Wagner. Shoppach alone could probably get a decent middle reliever who doesn't have his price hiked up by the "closer" label. Whatever middle reliever they got wouldn't be as good as Wanger, of course, but I don't think the Sox should give up that much just to get a pitcher for half a season. Youkilis, in my mind, is untouchable. The Sox have absolutely zero depth at third behind Mueller and Youk and Mueller is an injury risk. Even if Youkilis isn't given the starting job next year (something I'd like to happen) he's still too valuable to the team thsi year.

The Sox obviously need a reliever more than a first baseman, but first base is still an issue so I'm not sure who I'd go after in the Phillies organization. Howard and Wagner together would very likely cost too much.

by brian38 on Jul 13, 2005 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Urbina?
Thanks for joining the conversation, brian38.

I'd consider Urbina--who's probably better than your average middle reliever--straight-up for Shoppach. One thing I heard about both Urbina and Wagner, though, was that Epstein might value the possibility of comp picks if/when they left through f/a, so the short tenure in Boston (or wherever) is potentially a plus as well as a minus.

Of course, the Phils could apply the same thinking, but after getting burned on Polanco this past winter I doubt they'd be quick to go down that road again.

by dajafi on Jul 13, 2005 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Urbina
No problem...The thing I like best about SB Nation is the ability to go to any team's site and start a conversation about something. I've mostly been using the diaries feature to learn more about a team's minor league talent, but to me, the best way to learn about a team is to talk to some fans from that team about it.

Urbina for Shoppach I'd probably do. I was thinking Danys Baez or Eddie Guardardo in a deal centering around Shoppach, but I think Urbina would do nicely.

by brian38 on Jul 13, 2005 1:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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