Phils Free Agent Outlook
I noticed that there are some who think the Abreu trade is good because it will allow the Phillies to address the pitching problem in the off-season. That made me look into the 2006/2007 free agent class of pitchers. The results of the study may surprise you.
Unless you're a Phillies fan, in which case you'll know this class is horrible.
First, I took off the following pitchers because their option will likely be picked up:
Mark Buehrle, Tom Glavine, Mike Mussina, John Smoltz, Tim Wakefield, Kerry Wood.
I'm not including Roger Clemens because there is no way he'd ever want to pitch here. Brad Radke was left off because he's already said he'll retire. And a few pitchers, the Joe Mays type, I left off because no one cares. Greg Maddux is gone because if he does pitches, it won't be on the East Coast. Vicente Padilla probably won't come back, and after his recent comments, I think Cory Lidle's Phillies career is over.
That left us with 18 pitchers. For each one I included their 2007 Season Age, their 2006 VORP (not the best way to calculate value, but good enough for this exercise), their 2006 IP, and their 2006 base salary. I grouped them by VORP, broke them down with some comments, and included your Pat Gillick Threat Level to let you know how scared you should be of our idiotic GM this off-season.
Let's start off with the bottom 4:
Bruce Chen (30) -12.5 82.7 3.8 million
Mark Mulder (29) -3.4 88.7 7.75 million
John Thomson (33) -1.6 79.3 4.75 million
Jason Marquis (28) 0.5 147.3 5.15 million
Nothing to see here. Jason Marquis had one big year but has been trending downward since. John Thomson, other than a couple small stretches, is not a very good pitcher. Mark Mulder is the scary one. He's had some great years, and despite the injury risk and horrible season will still carry a BIG price tag on him. May be worth a gamble but not at the price he'll get (which, based off the other pitchers available, could be a high level). Bruce Chen had one good year. Hopefully we won't bring him back.
Pat Gillick Threat Level: Orange. Mulder is very tempting, and all of these guys have had enough success recently that they may be tempting and should get big contracts.
Next up are the fourth/fifth starter candidates.
Mark Redman (33) 7.9 110.3 4.5 mill
Tony Armas (29) 7.1 97.7 2.1 mill
Jeff Suppan (32) 5.1 120.1 4 mill
Some decent back end options. Mark Redman has steadily gotten worse and may not have much left in the tank. If you look up innings eater in the dictionary, you'll see Jeff Suppan's picture (much like if you look up cliché, you'll see that line). He has also steadily gotten worse, and probably will give you nothing more than replacement level performance. Tony Armas is the interesting one. Ever tantalizing, going back to the Pedro deal, he's also highly brittle. The problem is he also hasn't been that good lately. Plus he screwed up my fantasy team, so I really hate him.
Pat Gillick Threat Level: Yellow. It'd be a waste to give any of these guys much money, but at worst, they're just a mediocre starter.
I left Adam Eaton out of this (although he would've fit in with the last group) because of his injuries. I think Adam Eaton is the real deal, and I would've preferred to have him the last six years to Andy Ashby, but he's missed significant portions of the last two seasons.
The next group are those who have been pretty good this year, but nothing special.
Woody Williams (40) 14.2 77.3 5 mill
Aaron Sele (37) 13.7 82.0 $500,000
Miguel Batista (36) 12.8 143.3 4.75 mill
Tomo Ohka (31) 11.8 58 4.53 mill
Steve Trachsel (36) 10.5 116.0 2.5 mill
Andy Pettitte (35) 9.8 145.0 17.5 mill
Two things about this group jump out. Other than Ohka, they're all old. Most of them also haven't thrown many pitches. Woody Williams hasn't pitched much, is old, expensive, and has superficially good stats. That's scary. Aaron Sele is still pretty much useless. Miguel Batista (who knew he was so old?) is probably a solid mid-rotation option. He's also the kind of solid groundball pitcher we need here. Tomo Ohka, the kid of the bunch, is actually a very decent option for a fourth starter. He also probably won't be that expensive. Steve Trachsel has moved from solid, if unspectacular, to innings eater. Of course, if the Mets win the World Series, he'll cash in (and could the Phils be the ones to pay him for Carlos Beltran's exploits? Yes). Finally, Andy Pettitte. Its amazing to think it was just about seven years ago we were waiting to see if the Phils could land him. How different would those years have been? He's always been slightly overrated, and last year's insanely great performance doesn't help with that perception. He'd probably be an excellent option, except look at that last column. Even if he wanted to pitch in Philly (which he probably wouldn't) do we think he'd be less than eight figures a year?
Pat Gillick Threat Level: Red. We have proven winners, guys that know how to pitch, and people who could bring the right attitude to the club. Although there's some good options, with the way the market will play out, this could be disastrous.
Next are the pitchers who have done pretty well this year, but not amazing.
Ted Lilly (31) 23.6 126.3 4 mill
Jamie Moyer (44) 22.9 143.0 5.5 mill
Gil Meche (28) 22.7 131.7 3.7 mill
Ted Lilly is probably the best option on the market. He shouldn't be that expensive, there's no reason he wouldn't pitch here, and he's always been a pretty good hurler. Would be a good Jon Lieber type. Also, his full name is Theodore Roosevelt Lilly. That's cool. Jamie Moyer would be a nice story, a Hawk coming home to finish his career. He's also a pretty good pitcher still. The only problem is he relies on his defense and is a flyball pitcher. Probably not a good marriage for the 2007 Phillies. Gil Meche could be the troublesome one of this year's market. Not that good a pitcher, and not the healthiest either. But he's still the fireballing kid that the Mariners have been developing seemingly forever.
Pat Gillick Threat Level: Orange. These guys are close enough to the top of the market they'll probably be too expensive. However, Lilly is a pretty good pitcher and Meche may not be a bad risk. One of these could work out for the Phils, but likely not.
Jason Schmidt (34) 45.5 150.3 10.5 mill
Barry Zito (29) 43.2 156.7 7.9 mill
The cream of the crop. Either of these guys could be our ace. And Barry Zito happens to be my favorite player. Also, notice that Jason Schmidt really isn't that old, despite being around a long time. The problem is we're not getting them. Barry Zito is, unfortunately, going to be a Met. They can pay him the big bucks, and Rick Peterson is his favoritest pitching coach in the whole wide world.
The problem is Schmidt. He's the second best pitcher in the NL. The only pitchers in baseball better than him this year are Brandon Webb, Francisco Liriano, Johan Santana, Roy Halladay and Justin Verlander. None of them will ever see the free market. Every team that could use an ace will be after him. Oakland, Minnesota, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Colorado, Florida & Tampa Bay would probably not give him the money he wants. That still leaves 22 teams. Will the Phillies a) give him more money than teams like NYY/BOS/LAA and b) be as attractive an option as the real contenders?
Pat Gillick Threat Level: Blue. We have no shot at these guys.
This market is actually quite bad. There are two studs, a couple of interesting options, and then a lot of mediocrity. The problem with that typically means the mediocrity gets a lot of money. So if the Abreu trade was made to allow the team to make a splash in the free agency period, its an even worse trade. Shockingly, the situation leaks even more bleak than normal.
0 recs |
23 comments
Comments
Zito no way, Schimdt would be loved
by Philsin06 on Aug 7, 2006 6:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good diary
I'm also the most worried about Mark Mulder. The guy's K/9 and ERA have gotten worse every season, and he's been hurt. His reputation, spot on numerous playoff teams, and good win/loss numbers are going to inflate his salary, and I'm afraid the Phillies Braintrust is going to go after him for credibility purposes because to the bulk of the fanbase he resembles the ACE we've needed for so long. The Phillies want no parts of Mark Mulder.
by WholeCamels on Aug 7, 2006 9:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great story
by David S. Cohen on Aug 7, 2006 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Meche
by WholeCamels on Aug 7, 2006 2:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Alternative Resource Distribution
by MPN on Aug 7, 2006 2:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re
by pacino on Aug 7, 2006 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
hey, that's a-no good
by gr on Aug 7, 2006 5:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tony Armas jr is my man
by jonk on Aug 7, 2006 11:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Shore up
by MPN on Aug 8, 2006 2:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How BAD does Lieber have to be ...
How STUPID do you think Gillick is to want to keep Lieber? How stupid do you think other GM's are that one of them would want to acquire Lieber (The 8-ball in Cincinnati and the retard in Pittsburgh don't count).
Bell, Cormier, Lidle and Franklin are gone. Now it's time to dump Lieber, Lieberthal, Rhodes and the rest of the geriatric bottom-feeders.
by robbybonfire on Aug 16, 2006 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you
by Philsin06 on Aug 17, 2006 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re LIEBER'S EXCUSES FOR FAILURE
Who took him at the trading deadline? No one. What is his record? Well, 1-0 as of last night. for which you gloat (did the season begin on August 16th for you?), 5-9 on the season, for everyone else. Turn that 5-9 around to 9-5 and the Phillies are right there in the post season party. The Phillies should drop this meatball from the rotation, one sharp outing per MONTH doesn't cut it - April, May, June, July, August = 5 wins total.
by robbybonfire on Aug 17, 2006 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good lord
He's been an average to good pitcher most of his career. In fact, he's been phenomenally consistent year-to-year. Why would you ignore all of that and assume that he's cooked? Maybe he really did have mechanical and injury problems.
Also, may I point out that he's been pretty sharp in his last three starts: 8.0 IP/1 ER (of course, this was the game where the defense collapsed, including Lieber himself), 7.0 IP/2 ER, and 9.0 IP/0 ER.
by phatj on Aug 17, 2006 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LIEBER: SHARP AS A MARSHMALLOW
Let's take a look at this getting off the hook factor. Lieber was considered, (by a lazy-ass in-default media) the Phillies "Ace" pitcher, coming into this season. If anyone had done his homework, he would have discovered that in 2005 the Phillies got Lieber off the hook FIVE TIMES, with no give back, meaning that not once did the bullpen blow a game in which Lieber was leading. Had the team not gotten him off the hook in any of those games, his record would have been 17-18, not 17-13.
Now, in 2006, he is sporting a record of 5-9, much more indicative of his age, physical condition, and milksop "ability" at this stage of his career, and we are suddenly supposed to be enamored with this old "warhorse" because he pitched well - for a change - last night.
I'm not buying what you're selling, unless you include Pamela Anderson in the Lieber package you're peddling.
by robbybonfire on Aug 17, 2006 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leave his "record" out of it
Lieber wasn't great overall last year; however, he was pretty good (3.51 ERA, 1.05 WHIP) in August and excellent in September (1.76 & 0.88). The year before, he was average in August (4.50 & 1.35) but very good in September (3.12 & 1.29), and good in the playoffs as well (3.43 & 1.00). Sense a pattern forming here?
This year, Lieber was really bad for much of the year, consistent with the notion that he was laboring under physical or mechanical problems. His struggles were not consistent with age-related decline. Exceptionally consistent players like Lieber cannot be expected to simply fall off a cliff one year. And, we see the pattern described above begin to take shape once again: in August so far, he has a 1.13 ERA and 0.75 WHIP.
I wouldn't be sorry to see Lieber depart in the offseason; he is getting old and may be overpaid. But I wouldn't be too sorry if he were retained, either. The Phillies will probably need at least one veteran starter, unless they seriously don't think they have a shot and want the youngsters to learn on the job, so to speak. Lieber is more or less a known quantity and can be dominant when he's at his best.
by phatj on Aug 17, 2006 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BRAVO FOR THE PHILLIES DEADBEAT PURGE
You also don't want to acknowledge that Lieber is a whiner and an excuse maker, and definitely not a clubhouse leader. You also don't seem to appreciate that the Phillies having just axed Franklin, Bell, Cormier, and Lidle, are now aggressively purging the old guard and the job will be done as soon as Lieber, Lieberthal, Rhodes, White, Gordon and company are shown the gate. This is the biggest positive for the Phillies in years as the club FINALLY moves on from the scourge of the Ed Wade years.
So sever your umbilical/emotional tie with the Lieber's of the world. Better days are directly ahead as their YOUNGER replacements arrive, one piece at a time, and assuredly make a positive impact far beyond what the club is now getting from the old washouts who are just playing out the string and kidding the rest of us along, in the process.
by robbybonfire on Aug 17, 2006 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pay attention, now
As to Lieber's record last year, I didn't know what it was, because I don't care. It's not meaningful. I certainly don't look at it as a positive.
What do Franklin, Rhodes, White and Gordon have to do with Wade?
Look, maybe you should send him a letter and ask him to apologize for cutting you off in traffic or whatever he did. I'm not even a particular fan of Lieber's, but you're being ridiculous.
by phatj on Aug 17, 2006 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LIEBER IS A JOKE!
Gillick seems indecisive as he is both trying to contend this year, and put the pieces together for contention down the road. The club, as a result, represents a curious roster mix of past, present, and future players thrown together.
Lieber was never 36 before this year, has already done time on the DL this year, and with a 5-9 record and 5+ ERA represents a great deal of risk if you are going to pin your hopes for this year on his having a late resurgence. I would stick him in the pen, acquire another infielder and let White and Rhodes walk - right now.
by robbybonfire on Aug 17, 2006 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Late season resurgence
Who would you replace him with, anyway? Madson? Mazone? Brito?
by phatj on Aug 18, 2006 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PHILLIES STARTING ROTATION
Even the Marlins, generally laughed at and scorned prior to this season, now have many highly impressive pieces in place and are a serious threat to top the division in the next three years, whatever their venue. The Marlins dump the Mike Lowell's of the world BEFORE THE FACT ,and press the talented young replacements into service, while the Phillies hold on to the David Bell's, Rheal Cormier's, Jon Lieber's and Mike Lieberthal's of the world, until long after their market value has crashed like the stock markets of 1929, 1987, and 2000.
The Phillies and the Mets, bless their little hearts, are the quick-fix/instant gratification members of the division. The Mets, riding high at the moment, are headed for a collapse of epic proportions in the next two years, given the top-heavy old-time mercenary quality of their present roster - unless I am wrong and the Pedro Martinez's, the Tom Glavine's, and the Carlos Delgado's of the world are the spitting image of Julio Franco and capable of great things until social security kicks in. The Mets have put themselves in the unenviable (and extremely expensive) position of absolutely having to win it all THIS YEAR, as the disintegration begins in earnest next year in tandem with the resurgence of the Braves and Marlins.
So, in answer to your question as to whom I would go with to replace Jon Lieber in the rotation, the answer - right out of the Braves playbook - is Ryan Madson, who is 10 years younger than Lieber and may have a future, which Lieber decidedly does not have. What I would stop doing is jacking Madson around between the rotation and the pen. He has taken his lumps in both roles, also enjoyed some sparkling moments, as his 10-8 W-L record attests. I just would not be AFRAID to make the change and stay with it for a full year of trial and error and progress through the learning curve for him. And he does turn 26 in a few days, so what's the big deal? Commit to young players and give them a chance to grow under pressure and with experience. So elementary it should not have to be defended here as a long-term strategy for success.
So you can keep the Mets "One shot" formula for success. I stand with the Braves and the Marlins, philosophically, and the Phillies should too.
by robbybonfire on Aug 18, 2006 6:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Schmidt isnt coming to Philly
Jason Schmidts agent has already said that Schmidt wants no part of pitching at CBP.
by HowardForeskin on Aug 8, 2006 5:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah i heard that
by Philsin06 on Aug 8, 2006 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
Myers
Hamels
Lieber
Mathieson
Floyd
and believing that he will bring in another vet like Meche, Ohka et al. and keep Wolf...so e end up with something like:
Myers
Hamels
Lieber
Wolf
Ohka/Meche
I agree it is highly doubtful they sign or trade for a really top notch pitcher.
If they dump Burrell, then we are really in trouble IMO offensively too especially if Gillick continues to bring in the likes of AGon, Nunez, Fasano to fill out the bench and the likes of Rhodes, White, Santana to inhabit the pen...
by Vote for Kalas on Aug 11, 2006 12:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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