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Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation

The 44 year old wily vet with his offspeed stuff that clocks in higher than his fast ball.  Jamie had a "disappointing" season for the Phillies posting the following line:

33G 199.3IP 14W 12L 1.445WHIP 133K 66BB 5.01ERA 92ERA+

Not good, but still good enough to pick up 14 wins with this high powered offense.  

Star-divide

Looking at Jamie's ERA using DIPS (Defense Independent Pitching Stat) they have him as a little bit unlucky with a DIPS% of 94.  This means that, if all things being equal with defense, pitchers should have a DIPS% of 100.  This would move his DIPS ERA to 4.73.  Not a big move, but still a positive sign.

The real question is, what IS a 5.01 ERA?  ERA is, after just an average.  For most players, that average is a pretty good example of how they actually played.  For others (and usually the minority), it masks other factors at work.  There are two types of extreme pitchers.  The ones who average close to the same output every game and the others who tend to have extreme outliers.  It would seem, at first, that the consistent pitcher is the best bet, but I don't think that is the case.

Jamie averaged 6.039 innings per game and gave up, on average 3.36 runs per those 6.039 innings.  That appears better than it is since ERA is a 9 inning stat and 3.36 runs per 6.039 innings equates to a 5.01 ERA.  Would you be happy if a pitcher gave you 6 innings every game while allowing 3 runs for 2/3rds of them and 4 runs for the other 1/3rd?  Maybe, but you'd probably not be too successful since you still had 1/3rd of the game left to go.

The converse is having a pitcher throw like 5 or 6 stinkers with the rest being 2-3 run games.  You'd probably end up winning more games in that situation over the guy who was much closer to his average each start.  Where am I going with this?  Well, I tend to think of Jamie Moyer as a knuckleball type pitcher (like Tim Wakefield) where, when he is on, he is on, and when he is off, he is off.

Jamie was pretty close to that example.  

Of the 33 games Jamie started (fairly good feat for a 44 year old guy), he gave up 6 or more runs in 6 of them.  In those 6 games, he pitched a total of 26.3 innings giving up 42 runs for a 14.4 ERA.  

In the remaining 27 games he pitched in, Jamie pitched 173 innings, giving up 69 runs to a 3.59 ERA.  In 19 of his 33 games, he gave up 3 runs or fewer.  (Btw, when I say runs, I mean earned runs, although, he only allowed 7 unearned runs).  

This may seem like cherry picking, and to a certain extent, it is.  You remove most pitchers', not named Adam Eaton, worst start(s), and sure, their numbers will look much better.  It appears that Jamie may have had more "bad" starts than other pitchers in his ERA range.  Just getting rid of the one 10 run and two 7 runs games drop his innings down to 186.7 and his ERA down to 4.19.  

Looking at his peripherals doesn't really tell me what he is capable of doing.  It is hard to project a 44 year old guy.  He doesn't strike out a ton, but he appears to get outs by fooling the hitters into "just missing" the pitch.  When he doesn't fool them, they crush him.  When he does fool them, he pitches well.  The fooling them looks like it occurs a lot more often than the getting crushed, despite the high ERA.  I think Jamie will likely have a decent year next year and maybe a league average ERA around 4.60.  If it follows suit to how he performed this year, that may be good enough for 16-17 wins.

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Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
With the market for starting pitching being what it is, I think that looks pretty decent for $6M.

by Seth on Oct 23, 2007 5:47 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
I like your point about consistency.  Managers and players always talk about "knowing what you are going to get" from a pitcher.  I don't think that is necessarily a good thing.  If you are going to give up 100 Earned Runs in a season, wouldn't you rather have as many of those runs concentrated into "bad" games and have a much better chance of winning the rest?

Obviously you want a pitcher who is consistently good.  But if you have a below average pitcher, 2 great games and a horrible one seem like a better option than 3 below (league) average ones.

by PhoenixPhilly on Oct 23, 2007 10:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
The knuckleballer comparison is an interesting one. As with Niekro, Hough and I guess Wakefield (though he's a good bit younger than those guys were by the end of their careers), it's possible that Moyer's age is "just a number," in that his advancing years don't really mean his stuff is eroding. He works hard and keeps himself in shape, he knows the hitters, and he's the master of mound psychology--I start to laugh every time he has a couple guys on and keeps throwing over to first, not to pick off the runner but to get the guy at the plate so impatient that he'll swing at anything.

His last couple years have been pretty similar. It doesn't seem so unreasonable to expect next year to be so as well.

by dajafi on Oct 23, 2007 12:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
I agree.  In my opinion, Jamie Moyer is more fun to watch (when he's on) than any other pitcher on the team.

by taco pal on Oct 23, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
I'll third that sentiment. his last two starts this year were maybe my favorite games pitched by a Phillie all season; a shame we didn't pick him up in the last one.

by perfectdepth on Oct 23, 2007 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
Eh, I rarely have fun watching Jamie pitch. Even when he's on. Sooooo slow and deliberate. Don't get me wrong, he is a brilliant tactician (he has to be at this point), but I just have difficulty staying focused on the game when he is throwing. Does anyone know if he led the league in throws over to first base?

In my opinion, the games that Cole pitches when he is on (which is almost always) are practically out of body experiences. The 15 K performance in Cincy, the 2 hitter against Milwaukee, and the 13K, 8 inning shutout against Washington in game 160 are a few that come to mind. I am a sucker for the swing and miss.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 23, 2007 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
He can be slow between pitches with runners on base, but when he's on, that's okay because he throws very few pitches. I love watching pitchers who are crafty and super efficient.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching Hamels pitch too. But I think dominating your opponent is less fun than outsmarting him. (Of course, I don't advocate that this should be taken into account in personnel matters.)

Would you believe that one of my alltime favorite Phillies pitchers to watch was Mark Portugal? He was at the end of his career and he wasn't around for very long, but even then, when he was on his game he could throw a complete game at you in 90 pitches with stuff that might have been even less intimidating than Moyer's.

by taco pal on Oct 23, 2007 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
I have to disagree on this to a certain extent.  Hamels certainly is all about outsmarting his opponents.  He doesn't have anything that blows them away.  I think I read on BP somewhere about Cole throwing more changeups than anyone in the league and getting the most strikes with them (will have to find the article).  If that isn't outsmarting your opponent, I don't know what is.

by jonk on Oct 23, 2007 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
I think that's very true - Hamels isn't Nolan Ryan. he may not be Greg Maddux either, but strategy does seem to be pretty important to his game.

but, speaking for myself, I still find Moyer's starts more interesting just because he doesn't have the benefit of Hamels' raw physical talent. he's making the most of very, very little.

by perfectdepth on Oct 23, 2007 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
Obviously we've entered the realm of aesthetics here and there really isn't any right or wrong here, but, well...I think this is wrong. "Outsmart" doesn't mean the same thing as "relies on off-speed pitches." A pitcher can dominate a batter with hard stuff or off-speed stuff. A pitcher can outsmart a batter with hard stuff or off-speed stuff.

It's true that Hamels' best pitch is a changeup, but that pitch works for him not because of when or where he spots it, but because it's just so difficult to hit as such. I don't ever get the sense that he needs to be particularly crafty or strategic with it. He just throws it more-or-less whenever and wherever, and batters still can't hit it even when they're expecting it. That's domination in my book - whether it's 100 mph or 75 mph, the fact remains that Hamels' stuff gets people out, as opposed to getting people to get themselves out.

by taco pal on Oct 24, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Moyer "outsmarting" opponents
There's definitely something to this. Generally speaking, the less experienced and more aggressive the opponent's lineup, the better Moyer tended to do against them in 2007. His work against the Marlins is probably best remembered: he went 4-0, 2.84 in four starts against them, and literally most of that damage came in the final one-third of an inning he saw them. Washington couldn't handle him either (2-0, 2.33 in 3 starts).

The problem is that if you take out those seven starts against the sub-.500 division foes (both of whom will be better next year), Moyer's full season line is 8-12, 5.71. This is one big reason that, much as I enjoy seeing him pitch too (and notwithstanding what I wrote a few hours ago...) he does make me nervous for 2008.

by dajafi on Oct 23, 2007 11:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
JONK (or DAJAFI),

    When doing your breakdowns, did you notice anything that would either support or refute a theory that Moyer is a cool weather pitcher, or perhaps more accurately, a poor hot weather pitcher?

by Dalton Bouchee on Oct 24, 2007 12:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
Game 162 was a pretty damn good hot-weather outing, all things considered, no?

by das411 on Oct 24, 2007 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
I must have too much time on my hands, because I broke down Moyer's starts by temperature. the records listed are actual W-L, not pitcher W-L.

40°-59°: 1-2; 3.42 ERA; averaged 7.00 IP, 2.67 ER, game score 57.33
60°-69°: 3-1; 6.40 ERA; averaged 5.63 IP, 4.00 ER, game score 43.00
70°-79°: 7-4; 5.80 ERA; averaged 5.78 IP, 3.73 ER, game score 44.18
80°-89°: 7-6; 4.50 ERA; averaged 5.84 IP, 2.92 ER, game score 47.38
90°-99°: 0-2; 6.43 ERA; averaged 5.60 IP, 4.00 ER, game score 45.50

Moyer actually put up nearly identical lines in his hottest and coldest starts of the year (6 IP/3 ER vs CIN, 6/27, 92°; 6 IP/3 ER vs NYM, 4/12, 44°).

by perfectdepth on Oct 24, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
I guess this indicates that he pitches well in cool weather, but I don't think we can draw any conclusions from this because he was better between 80 and 89 than he was between 60 and 79.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 24, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
FWIW, I think it indicates that temperature has little to no effect on his performance.

anecdotally, we all know how well he does vs Florida, and nobody goes to Miami for the skiing.

by perfectdepth on Oct 24, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
Perfectdepth,

   Hey, thanks for the info. If the fellow who made the observation ever brings it up again, I'll have to tell him that it doesn't look like the evidence supports him. Or he'll have to study it by Misery Index or something. <g>

by Dalton Bouchee on Oct 25, 2007 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
Are you ever going to complete the All time Phillies Tournament?

by HankA on Oct 25, 2007 10:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
Yeah, I just had to build up some more anticipation from the crowd.

by jonk on Oct 25, 2007 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jamie Moyer: 2007 Evaluation
Article on Moyer:
[Moyer's] longevity is a remarkable tribute to preparation, to understanding the science of pitching and to the ability to listen to all the mentors who have steered him through the inevitable perils of his profession.

A significant part of him wonders just how much longer he can play this game, how much longer he can fool hitters half his age, how far he can push his sports' athletic envelope.

"I am curious," Moyer said last week, sitting in a conference room at the Moyer Foundation in Magnolia. "As of today, I have my health. I got through a healthy season. I still feel I can compete. I know I can still play the game. ...

"At some point, maybe it's next year, maybe it's two years down the road, I'll go out on the field and I just can't do it. But if I can and right now I know that I can, why not? Just because somebody says you're too old? Or your birth certificate says you're a certain age?"

On a staff that suffered an epidemic of arm problems, Moyer took the ball every fifth day. Pitching in his hometown, he threw 199-1/3 innings and won 14 games for the National League East-winning Phillies.

"I don't do it any differently now than I did five years ago, 10 years ago," said Moyer, who has 230 big-league wins. "I don't think I throw any slower. It's all about location for me. And if I have my health and I believe I can still compete, why can't I keep pitching?"

I have serious concerns about a rotation that's 60 percent comprised of a 45 year-old, a guy who might have pitched way above his head (Kendrick), and Adam Eaton. But if I had to predict who'd have the best year in 2008, it probably would be Moyer.

by dajafi on Oct 28, 2007 2:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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