World Series Game 5: Pre-game chat Part II: The Final Three Innings

by jonk on Oct 29, 2008 9:54 AM EDT

Ok people, here we are. Instead of bitching and moaning, we should be appreciative that we actually get to celebrate game 5 over three full days! I, for one, am greatful, just because I actually got some sleep and didn't miss any baseball. So, what should we do? Not often do you have such time like this to discuss mid-game decisions. Cole is obviously out, which means a pinch hitter is going to lead off the bottom of the 6th. It better not be So Taguchi.

I am guessing he comes out with Dobbs, prompting the Rays to put in Price. I consider that a decent tradeoff since we then have Rollins and Werth up to hit against him. Do you let dobbs hit, or put in Coste?

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Has Selig or any other MLB official directly commented on the fact that the two teams will be playing their respective halves of the 6th in wildly different conditions?

I know this sounds like the biased rantings of a frustrated Phillies Phan, but I really think the right thing to do would be to wipe out the top of the 6th and pick it up at 2-1 Phillies. Unfortunately for us, that would mean an extra inning pitched by someone other than Madson, Romero and Lidge, but I’d take that trade-off, given the (presumably) better conditions for playing defense.

by phatj on Oct 29, 2008 8:25 AM EDT 0 recs

I’ve heard this from numerous sources, but we all know it’s not going to happen, not just ‘phillies fans’, many people are saying if selig already made the ‘all games go 9 innings’ decision then it should have been stopped after 5 since they were going to continue no matter what.

by jemagee on Oct 29, 2008 10:00 AM EDT up 0 recs

in that case...

Let’s just start the whole game over.
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Oct 29, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up 0 recs

In Selig’s defense, he isn’t looking at how many equal innings we have played, but how many we WILL play. By my count, the Phillies and the Rays have 3 innings each to play in the dry weather. Seems about right.

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Oct 29, 2008 8:32 AM EDT 0 recs

They will never wipe away a run. Hamels said that both runs scored were on plays Rollins normally makes. Also, when Upton scored Burrell came up with the ball with Upton rounding third. Without a wet ball I think he had a good shot at throwing him out at home. I hope that Stairs leads off so we dont waste Dobbs bat without letting him bat. If the Phils lead after 6 the bullpen should be brought in as normal Romero, Madson, Lidge. In the event that there is a tie after 6, I think Madson should come out for the 7th and pitch 2 innings. I personally do not want to see Romero walk a leadoff batter in the 7th even if it is the bottom of the Rays order. I think the Phils obviously hold and advantage by controlling 12 outs to the Rays 9. We get to use the meat of our order twice and they may only get to theirs once.
It may sound funny and it would never happen but, everyone knows Cole is not pitching tonight. If I am Charlie, I am bringing him to the plate to start the 6th. Have him take a few practice swings out of the box and then pull him for a pinch hitter. Let the game start with Cole getting a standing ovation for pitching 6 innings of 2 run ball with only being able to use one pitch! That would really fire up the fans in the stadium and put the Rays out of sorts.

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 8:34 AM EDT 0 recs

In all fairness Upton would have been faster rounding the bases without the mud so you can’t say without the wet ball Burrell had a good shot throwing him out.

by BrandonB on Oct 29, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up 0 recs

True too

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up 0 recs

I really like that idea.

by taco pal on Oct 29, 2008 11:18 AM EDT up 0 recs

BRILLIANT!

by FuquaManuel on Oct 29, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up 0 recs

Dude that’s awesome… i doubt it’ll happen but it’s fantastic

"When you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys - there's no better feeling than to have that done." - Matt Stairs 10/13/08

Gold... Pure Gold...

by foos05 on Oct 29, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up 0 recs

How thrown off with the rays players be to see that?!

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up 0 recs

i’d be more interested in how awesome it would be for the crowd

"When you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys - there's no better feeling than to have that done." - Matt Stairs 10/13/08

Gold... Pure Gold...

by foos05 on Oct 29, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up 0 recs

Nothing could fire them up more to start the rest of the game.

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up 0 recs

unless Jenkins comes up as the PH and drills the first pitch fastball he’ll see from Balfour into the seats…

"When you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys - there's no better feeling than to have that done." - Matt Stairs 10/13/08

Gold... Pure Gold...

by foos05 on Oct 29, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up 0 recs

Love this idea & would be a great way for Cholly to continue his “no commenting” after game 5 and rev the fans to level 11. (one more than 10)

by Wet Luzinski on Oct 29, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up 0 recs

I still dont see why Cole cant pitch

We only threw 75 pitches and had 2 days rest, even if its only for an inning or 2 put your best guy out there

Why Can't Us

by XxBleedGreen5xX on Oct 29, 2008 8:43 AM EDT 0 recs

The reason they won’t is because this is not game 7. If Cole pitched today, he would certainly be ruled out if this series somehow makes it to a game 7. He has already said that he WILL pitch game 7 short rest or not.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-seriesfyi28-2008oct28,0,3530874.story
That said, our bullpen was the best in the NL for the season and has been even better since the start of September. As long as Chad Durbin does not see the field tonight the Phillies should win this one.

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 8:51 AM EDT up 0 recs

good point

i assumed we’d win game 5 and be champs, didnt think ahead :-)

Why Can't Us

by XxBleedGreen5xX on Oct 29, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up 0 recs

I think we will win today too. But, Charlie needs to set them up best in all scenarios. Hamels also said that he trusts our relivers and would not be available for any relief appearances in the series.

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 10:30 AM EDT up 0 recs

I bet Durbin is one of the first relievers used if we don’t get the lead in the bottom of the sixth.

by David S. Cohen on Oct 29, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up 0 recs

I pray he doesn’t come into this game

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 10:25 AM EDT up 0 recs

unfortunately I echo your opinioin…

"When you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys - there's no better feeling than to have that done." - Matt Stairs 10/13/08

Gold... Pure Gold...

by foos05 on Oct 29, 2008 10:39 AM EDT up 0 recs

Durbin gave us a great season but unfortunely gassed out the last month (in his defense he pitched a ton of innings) and doesnt have much left in the tank. He’s doing more harm then good now, but Charlie is from the “use the guys who got us here” school of thought so he will undoubtly use him for the 7th in all cases against a righties. With a switch and 2 righties due up for the Rays in the 7th its a lock Durbin comes in.

by BrandonB on Oct 29, 2008 11:01 AM EDT up 0 recs

I stand second to none in my fear and loathing of Durbin. And I’m also wishing hard that he doesn’t get into the game.

But the main difference between Durbin in August and Durbin in late October is that Manuel no longer lets him ruin things by himself. Game Four in LA was the last straw as far as that went. In his two Series appearances, he faced two batters each—one out, one guy who reached. As soon as anyone reached against him, he was gone. Even I’m sort of okay using him for 1-2 batters.

by dajafi on Oct 29, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up 0 recs

Durbin was brilliant for 4 months. Now he cannot get anyone out. No one hates Clay Condrey in this entire world more than I do. That said, I would rather see Condrey with the bases loaded no outs in the 9th than Durbin with the bases empty in the 7th. Maybe I am exagerrating but, I think you get the idea.

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up 0 recs

I certainly hope you’re exaggerating. Because that’s pretty silly.

by dajafi on Oct 29, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up 0 recs

The problem arises is if Durbin comes in and walks or lets up a hit to Navarro/Baldelli.
With 0/1 out and still 1/2 righties to come up there is a big problem. If you hook Durbin who do you bring in?

by BrandonB on Oct 29, 2008 12:57 PM EDT up 0 recs

say hello to Clay Condrey

"When you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys - there's no better feeling than to have that done." - Matt Stairs 10/13/08

Gold... Pure Gold...

by foos05 on Oct 29, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up 0 recs

Pitching is a strain

Throwing a baseball overhand is one of the most stressful activities a human can place on the arm. Typically the arm is very sore 2 or 3 days after a start. “Only 72” pitches unfortunately is still enough to put the arm into that red zone, so I don’t think Cole would be likely to be very effective, and if he pitched tonight, he would have no shot at pitching if, God forbid, the series went to 6 or 7 games. Hopefully we’ll jump on the Rays in the bottom of the sixth and turn it over to the bullpen. Madson should be available for more than an inning and so should Lidge. Romero looked great in his last outing, and Eyre’s around if we need another situational lefthander. I’m very comfortable with our bullpen versus theirs . Plus it’s almost like a new game, except we get first ups and last ups.

by MJW on Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up 0 recs

No way Price comes in in the sixth

The pitcher’s spot bats 4th, so Maddon would be committing Price to only one inning (although possibly two). I think he waits on Price until after the pitcher hits (or, after the 7 or 8 hitter hit, so that he can double switch without taking out any guys in the top of the lineup).

I think Jenkins will be our first pinch hitter (so as not to waste Coste or Stairs), the Rays will counter with a different lefty from the pen, and then Manuel will bring up Coste. He won’t bring in Taguchi because he sucks and he’ll want to save Bruntlett for later to replace Burrell. There’s no other righty on the bench, right?

by David S. Cohen on Oct 29, 2008 9:15 AM EDT 0 recs

I hope so. I was going to post that they should bat Jenkins first. If we’re going to “waste” a LH bat, better it be Jenkins than Stairs or Dobbs.

by Alex Falzone on Oct 29, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up 0 recs

I think it’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that Geoff Jenkins is the first announced hitter tonight. But then Chris Coste or (please no Charlie) So Taguchi will actually be the first hitter to face pitching tonight.

by David S. Cohen on Oct 29, 2008 11:00 AM EDT up 0 recs

Stairs is the only one on our bench that actually hits both righty and lefty pitching. By using him we wouldn’t have to “waste” anyone.

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up 0 recs

If it’s Jenkins, I think Maddon may just keep Balfour in the game. And I think Balfour probably handles him. McCarverian exaggerations aside, Jenkins really is a low-ball hitter and Balfour’s bread and butter is the high fastball.

by taco pal on Oct 29, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up 0 recs

Agreed, schrifty: Stairs should be the guy.

Let’s assume Cholly decides to go with Stairs, and let’s look at the possibilities here…

Possibility #1: Maddon leaves Balfour in. This is the best case scenario: a dead fastball hitter in Stairs against a guy who throws 85% fastballs. Maddon would do this to save Balfour to pitch to Rollins and Werth.

Possibility #2: Maddon goes to a lefty. This isn’t all bad. Stairs carries a lifetime .239/.330/.419 line against LHP, as compared to a .250/.291/.288 line for Dobbs and a .240/.310/.402 line for Jenkins (and we all know that the current version of Jenkins is even more useless against LHP). So you stick with Stairs, and Maddon has another choice to make: (1) leave Howell/Miller/Price in to face Rollins and Werth; (2) use Wheeler to face Rollins and Werth; (3) use Bradford for Werth only. Option 1 leaves Rollins and Werth hitting against a LHP; and options 2 and 3 burn at least one of Maddon’s three LHP (and possibly more if the Phils extend the inning and force Maddon into bringing in a second LHP to deal with Utley and/or Howard).

A bit long-winded, so my apologies, but Stairs is the best option here, and I wanted to flesh out the reasoning.

by PhillyFriar on Oct 29, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up 0 recs

I would rather “waste” Stairs. Jenkins can at least fill in in the field should Werth or Victorino get hurt. Though, i guess the same could be said for Taguchi. Stairs is also a .250 batter against left handed pitching over the last 3 years. Jenkins is a .165 batter against lefties the last 3 years.

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 11:00 AM EDT up 0 recs

I agree completely

Dobbs should be the pinch hitter. I bet the Rays leave Balfour in or maybe they bring in Trever Miller (in which case I let Dobbs hit against him). Coste hasn’t looked good the whole post season (although admittedly Dobbs looked bewildered in Tampa as the DH) and then you don’t have a back up catcher. Let Dobbs face Miller and then the Rays either have to let miller pitch to Rollins and Werth or he has to burn another righty (with Utley and Howard waiting in the wings). That puts a lot of stress on the Rays’ bullpen. They can’t afford to put Price in in the sixth. At most he’s going to go three innings — assuming we don’t get to him. I could see him coming in in the sseventh. That’s why the bottom of the sixth is a big spot for us.

by MJW on Oct 29, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up 0 recs

Price is really still an unproven commodity. Especially in the bullpen. He has only pitched a few major league games. Granted in those games he has been very good but, is still unproven. Considering he is a starter, I would assume they will warm him up prior to the game the same they would if he was making a start.

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 9:45 AM EDT 0 recs

Notto mention our only two runs in Game Two came against him. Eric Bruntlett?

by Walcott on Oct 29, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up 0 recs

I think the first batter should be Stairs. I don’t think Maddon wastes any of his lefty relievers for Jenkins and he will at least bring in Trevor Miller to pitch to Stairs. Doesn’t matter when Stairs hits, he’s going to see a lefty since they have three in the pen so send out there, force Balfour out of the game and leave him in there and have him swing for the fences. We just have to hope Maddon doesn’t go right to JP Howell because Rollins may hit him, but Werth won’t stand a chance on that slider from Howell (he’s just as effective against righties and lefties: both hit under .200 against him this year).

Why can’t us? Keep the Phaith.

by chrismchaines on Oct 29, 2008 11:18 AM EDT 0 recs

Not looking for a homer here

I wouldn’t use Stairs to lead off the bottom of the sixth. The top priority is just to get on base. Stairs swings for a home run every time. Dobbs is just as patient most of the time, and is a more well rounded hitter (plus he’s got plenty of pop too)

by MJW on Oct 29, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up 0 recs

Stairs may swing for a home run everytime, but that doesn’t change the fact that his OBP is higher than Dobbs’ OBP, both for this year and for their careers.

by taco pal on Oct 29, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up 0 recs

Stairs

Gotta be Stairs leading off for me because of his better plate discipline. Let them go to Price for the lefty/lefty matchup, but Price will be hesitant to throw Stairs a fastball (see Stairs v. Broxton), and I think with Stairs patience there’s a good chance he can draw a walk. Then you pinch-run with Taguchi and turn it over to J-Roll.

Oh, and no Durbin. Madson and Lidge need to get nine outs, with Romero possibly used for a one-out stint against a lefty. Three shutout innings and I believe we’re champs, no need to screw around.

by irons21 on Oct 29, 2008 11:18 AM EDT 0 recs

MY sentiments exactly. No really….I said this exactly :) All good points Irons!

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up 0 recs

cheers Schrifty, let’s get it done.

by irons21 on Oct 29, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up 0 recs

We’re all on the same page here re: Stairs. I posted above before scrolling down, but we all agree that Stairs is the logical choice.

Let’s just hope Manuel realizes this too!

by PhillyFriar on Oct 29, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up 0 recs

Coverage on ESPN Baseball Tonight last night was appallingly bad, even by their standards. First of all, they showed footage of rain at CBP from yesterday afternoon (it was still light out when the footage was taken) as Karl Ravech intoned “As you can see the Commissioner’s decision to postpone the game again was clearly justified!” Second, it was like a Rays pregame show. They spent about 90% of the show discussing TB, and it was all like “Sure the Phillies may have three more outs left and they may have a better bullpen… but it’s clear that the Rays have the advantage here because Pena and Longoria have broken out!” And then Fernando Vina claimed that the Rays had it tougher on Monday and what an achievement it was for them to tie the game because it’s harder to hit in the rain than field in the rain. Maybe for guys who hit like you did, Nando, but not otherwise.

by taco pal on Oct 29, 2008 11:47 AM EDT 0 recs

The whole playoff coverage by the media has been anti-philly. They wanted Sabathia and brewers to win. They were certain dodgers would win. Now, even when this series is over they may find a way to praise Tampa more than the World Champs.

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up 0 recs

They will change their tune to something like this:
Tampa had all of the momentum on their side when Game 5 was suspended. They certainly would have won and swept in Tampa had the original game finished.
What a load of garbage

by schrifty on Oct 29, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up 0 recs

Delaware Valley weather report?

Sun is out here in northern NJ, but cold and windy.

http://www.thegoodphight.com
WHY CAN'T US?

by WholeCamels on Oct 29, 2008 12:22 PM EDT 0 recs

Philadelphia weather report for tonight:

Cloudy and Cold with a 99% Chance of “Fuck You Selig, MSM, and Tampa Bay”

Ever get hit with a fastball in 35 degree weather? It blows… (lookin at you Mr. Madson).

"When you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys - there's no better feeling than to have that done." - Matt Stairs 10/13/08

Gold... Pure Gold...

by foos05 on Oct 29, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up 0 recs

Doesn't matter who comes to bat for the Phils

my money says that Balfour stays in there. He’s been the Rays best RP all season, and if the Rays pull him out because of a pinch hitter, he’s done for the game. I think he’ll pitch no matter who comes up, with Maddon hoping he gets through enough guys so that he can be pinch hit for – and thus setting up Price after that.

by TallMatt on Oct 29, 2008 2:20 PM EDT 0 recs

The more I think about it, the more I think you’re right. I had previously thought Balfour would leave, but I now think you’re right that he’ll stay in. If that’s the case, I want Stairs at bat.

by David S. Cohen on Oct 29, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up 0 recs

Yep

Pinch hit for if the Rays send four men to the plate, or double switched out if they don’t.
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Oct 29, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up 0 recs

Send Matt Stairs out there to lead off

He’ll hit a HR, and the Philly bullpen takes care of the rest.

All Games and Comments are Subject to Blackout

by Hit4TheCycle on Oct 29, 2008 2:38 PM EDT 0 recs

Jenkins PHes for Hamels

after you let Cole get some applause. If Tampa brings in a lefty, Charlie counters with the best right-handed bat on his bench…BRETT MYERS!

(no, seriously. either he lucks his way into a hit off of the lefty and they can then PR Taguchi for him , or he looks so bad at the plate that it loosens the team up and gets them to forget about the layoff/cold/how pissed they are at Selig, and then you’d still have Bruntlett available for defense later and Coste if you need him to PH the next time that lineup spot comes up)

by das411 on Oct 29, 2008 2:50 PM EDT 0 recs

I like jokes. I hope this is a joke. Brett Myers should not and will not touch a baseball bat for the rest of this series.

Plus, I WANT them to remember how pissed off they are at Selig if it motivates them to play well.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 29, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up 0 recs

Gosh, thanks for clearing that up.

by taco pal on Oct 29, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up 0 recs

Am I the only one worried about Lidge pitching after such a long time since his last appearance? Not to mention that there is no telling how well he will be able to control his slider in the bitter cold.

I pray to the baseball Gods (who, along with the used car salesman, have SCREWED us already) that we come out and score between 4 and 6 runs in the bottom of the 6th, and this becomes significantly less relevant.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 29, 2008 3:00 PM EDT 0 recs

No, I’m definitely at least a little concerned there. It’s been a full week since he pitched. Those guys get rusty with long layoffs.

Lidge could have gone two innings Saturday or Sunday, if the situation had dictated. I was actually a little surprised that Manuel didn’t use him in the 9th in Game Three… though Romero was really excellent that night, and well deserved his win. Tonight, he’ll be strong enough, but I fear one of those 30-pitch Maalox innings.

by dajafi on Oct 29, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up 0 recs

I share your guys’ concern about Lidge. As perverse as it sounds, I was almost a little disappointed when the runs piled on late in Game 4 because I thought a 6-2 score or so would be a good situation for Lidge to get some work in (whereas a 10-2 game was mop up time). You can never complain about a win, particularly a World Series win, but maybe it’s how I’ve been conditioned as a Phillies fan…picking apart even the most positive situations (i.e., a blowout win) to find something negative.

Steve Jeltz
.210/.308/.268
"If you condensed everything I ever did in my career into one game, it looks decent"

by Steve Jeltz on Oct 29, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up 0 recs

Not worried at all. Would you be worried if it was someone else’s stud closer? Only if you had to face him. WE GONNA WIN! WE GONNA WIN!!! WE GONNA WIN!!!! Imagine me singing that.

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Oct 29, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up 0 recs

Pitchers

As much as I would like to say the Phils got ripped when they started the 6th inning, it really will have little to no effect tonight. The phils will call out Jenkins to hit for Hammels…… the Rays will bring in a lefty (who cares really) and then the Phils will put Coaste in for Jenkins…. noww the Rays need to decide if they want to keep in the lefty or make another change…. the Phils have the hitters to play this swap game, but the Rays could get themselves into trouble if they make another pitcher change (at least 3 innings needed) On another note, the Fish song? People need to have a sense of humor!!! Its funny!!!

by IamWhoIam on Oct 29, 2008 4:33 PM EDT 0 recs

The Phillies will get any lost momentum back from having 45,000 Philadelphia fans behind them! And with Madson and Lidge pitching to the bottom of the line up we definitely have an advantage!

You see, you spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball, and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. ~Jim Bouton, Ball Four, 1970

by S. Raven on Oct 29, 2008 5:39 PM EDT 0 recs

Madson is our “starter” tonight according to Cholly. No Durbin. Thank goodness. First major victory of the night!

Keep the good news coming Phillies. Put up a 20-spot on these aquatic pieces of shit. Remember Steve Irwin!

by FuquaManuel on Oct 29, 2008 7:02 PM EDT 0 recs

What a fracking night mare – i just got home to see the bottom of the 8th – was on the phone with the gf who told me the rays are winning 4-3 and then some guy on KNBR (in SF) talks about how he’s a phillie fan about to pop champagne?

What the hell?

by jemagee on Oct 29, 2008 9:54 PM EDT 0 recs