BUMP: Phillies hate Philly
Editor's note: This was originally posted in June 2008. Updating the comments section with more current information.
It's true, we suck. Yesterday, I was listening to Chase talk about his first AB after he had his grand slam homerun as his first hit. The Phils were up big, he struck out and people booed him. Now, I have no idea if that is what happened or if he just remembered that as happening, but does it matter? It just matters what he thinks.
Taking this sa step further, BaseballProspectus.com tallied up the home winning percentages of all teams in MLB since 2004. Here is the chart:
| Team HomeW% RoadW% Diff | |||
| TBA .516 .340 .177 | |||
| MIL .569 .394 .175 | |||
| BOS .655 .508 .147 | |||
| COL .530 .385 .146 | |||
| TOR .558 .419 .139 | |||
| PIT .500 .371 .129 | |||
| SLN .572 .450 .122 | |||
| HOU .572 .455 .117 | |||
| SEA .507 .391 .116 | |||
| TEX .556 .443 .113 | |||
| NYA .645 .537 .107 | |||
| ATL .585 .481 .104 | |||
| MIN .586 .494 .092 | |||
| CIN .508 .418 .090 | |||
| LAN .554 .466 .088 | |||
| KCA .428 .346 .082 | |||
| OAK .575 .501 .073 | |||
| CHN .549 .479 .070 | |||
| CHA .568 .499 .070 | |||
| CLE .558 .496 .062 | |||
| ARI .490 .429 .062 | |||
| NYN .548 .492 .057 | |||
| FLO .515 .463 .052 | |||
| SDN .541 .496 .045 | |||
| DET .523 .479 .044 | |||
| SFN .496 .460 .036 | |||
| LAA .591 .559 .031 | |||
| BAL .478 .448 .029 | |||
| PHI .544 .530 .014 |
That's right, the Phillies have the WORST homefield advantage in all of baseball. In fact they are practically playing with no homefield advantage. How is this possible, especially with our new park? Are we that bad at home, or are we just that good on the road? BP suggests that it may be due to our fans.
" It’s also funny to see the Phillies at the bottom of the list when half the time their fans seem to be rooting against them."
I don't even know how to even argue that point. It could possibly be true, but hardly any evidence points to it (well, other than testimonies like Chase Utley's). I actually think it has more to do with management than anything. I'll give credit where credit is due and while they are bumbling oafs up there, we did get to the playoffs last year and have been a consistently above average team for most of the decade. Enough with the faint praise, the biggest problem with the management is not taking advantage of the talent that is here. Slight upgrades get us nothing and bone headed moves keep us running in place.
I need to find other reasons why this has occurred. Maybe it is the fans, but maybe we are missing something.
Here is my #1 reason:
Moving back the left field wall. Might be one of the stupidest decisions in the history of this team. Our left fielder is a right handed power hitter and slow. So, what do we do, we make it HARDER for him to hit homeruns and give him MORE ground to cover as well. Are you kidding me? This move has prompted Burrell to be replaced in the late innings and has likely hurt this team more than his defense would have. What could possess this franchise to move the wall back when it clearly benefits their player more than any other.
What else?
0 recs |
25 comments
Comments
The Phillies have also tended to acquire fly ball-prone pitchers since they moved into Citizens Bank Park. Cory Lidle is one exception I can think of.
http://crashburnalley.com/
by Crashburn Alley on Jun 30, 2008 11:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
flawed logic
You’re simply trying to draw what you want to out of that stat. Home field advantage isn’t reflected in the percentage differential of your home and away wins. If that were the case, a team that plays .500 ball at home and is TERRIBLE on the road would have a great home field advantage. I don’t know about you, but a coin flip doesn’t sound like much advantage to me. What I read from these numbers is that the Phils are simply consistently slightly above average, whether its home or away. The fact that the Yankees, Sox, Angels and A’s are the only teams (along with us) that have winning percentages above .500 both home and away is a much more telling trend than this differential that you’re trying to harp on.
by phillywriter21 on Jun 30, 2008 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WOW, you make no sense. This wasn’t even jonk’s way of measuring homefield advantage; it’s from Baseball Prospectus. And that is precisely what the definition of homefield advantage should be—how much better do you play at home than on the road. The fictional team you mention who plays .500 ball at home and terribly on the road clearly has a homefield advantage—otherwise they would be playing terribly. There is something about the effect of being at home that makes a bad team able to be 50/50 in that case.
by Matt Swartz on Jun 30, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cmon
Think about it. I mean, a terrible team that plays much better at home definitely has a homefield advantage. The advantage might not mean that they will win most of their home games, but just playing at home results in a better winning percentage than playing on the road. Could be due to a lot of things.
However, the Phils have the worst homefield advanatge and I WANT TO KNOW WHY!!! Maybe it is the fans.
For Who? My teammates.
For What? To Win.
How Much? Where do I sign?
by jonk on Jun 30, 2008 8:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, last year it was my fault…
I went to 10 home games and they lost every one of them so I must have screwed up the mojo.
by FuquaManuel on Jun 30, 2008 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We still win at home more than we do on the road.
So the fact that we play above .500 both home and away means that the Phillies fans make them play worse at home? While obviously if you play better at home than on the road its advantageous to you, my point is that a home field advantage should give you something more than .500, which is your odds stepping on the diamond anytime. The fact that we’re consistent doesn’t mean that the fans make the team play worse at home. We still win more games at home than we do on the road according to those numbers. The flaw is in ignoring that we’ve got the 3rd best road percentage over that time, too.
by phillywriter21 on Jun 30, 2008 8:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You are missing the ENTIRE concept. It isn’t that the Phillies aren’t good. There is a base home field advantage that EVERY team has. On average, home teams win 54% of the time. This year it is 58% of the time. Considering that, the Phils should be winning even more at home than they are already.
Let me also add that the odds of winning a game is not .500. Some teams are better than others. The Phils versus the Nats, I’d givethe Phillies a 65% chance of winning, maybe even more. You really have to start learning how statistics work.
For Who? My teammates.
For What? To Win.
How Much? Where do I sign?
by jonk on Jul 1, 2008 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like somebody else misread this piece.
http://www.ballssticksstuff.com/
Let me break this down a bit…
“The writer takes a look at the difference between home and road winning percentages and because the Phillies have the smallest in baseball, concludes that Phillies management is greedy, incompetent… well, you’ve heard it all before.”
I did not conclude that “the management is greedy, incompetent…” because the Phillies have the smallest differential winning percentage at home in all of baseball. I said it was one of the reasons for it and I was looking for others. In fact, I gave an excellent reason to show how incompetent our mamagement has been.
“Look, if that is your agenda, that’s fine, but there are other ways to make your argument. But pointing out that the Phillies have a .544 winning percentage at home and a .530 winning percentage on the road doesn’t make your case. It just shows that the Phillies, over the course of the season, have been consistently good at home and on the road [last two weeks notwithstanding].”
I didn’t make an argument that the Phillies have the lowest winning yadd yadda yadda. I supplied data that shows it is proof. There is no denying it. Phillies are the worst. And it isn’t even close. Is it a statistical anomoly? Could be, but when you are at the bottom and by quite a bit, then even a statistician doesn’t need to start looking at standard deviations and know that it is much more than an anomoly.
The Phillies have been a good team over the last 4 years. That actually DOES have an effect. How much of an effect, not much. As the team’s winning percentage approaches 1.000 the effect of homefield advantage will diminish to 0. Laws of physics and shit there. The average team wins about 8% more of it’s game at home. That ranges from Milwaukee who wins 17.7% more of it’s games at home to the Phils who win 1.4% more of it’s games at home. Is that within the expected range of error even when factoring that the Phils are a slightly above average team? Um, not even freakin close.
So, the Phils are an underperforming home team and it is likely due to reasons other than luck. The BP guys pointed at the possibility of the fans (which obviosuly was ignored by B,S&S), and I moved on the the possibility of management. Then I asked for more. Please, take time to read and use reason when analyzing the stuff here. Most of it isn’t hard if you take the time.
For Who? My teammates.
For What? To Win.
How Much? Where do I sign?
by jonk on Jul 1, 2008 6:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think this statistic is a bit out of whack because we play exceptionally well on the road. We are the third best road team in the league, therefore, our differential is going to be skewed. However, I still tend to agree that we aren’t very good at home. I think this is because when we play on the road in more neutral ballparks (hitter/pitcher neutral), our offense can still shine while our pitchers are slightly benefited. Meanwhile, at home, scoring runs is a complete crap shot where any offense at any time can put up big numbers, especially against our pitching. I generally do not like to think that players are affected by fans whatsoever. In every sport I have ever played, neither my teammates or I gave a rat’s ass about the fan base.
by Neduol Caz on Jul 1, 2008 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Best NL Road Team
Only the Angels and Yankees are better, but we play the AL so infrequently they don’t really matter. We are, by a wide margin, the best NL road team. But, if we’re that good on the road, you’d expect we’d be even that much better at home. Even getting us to within one standard deviation of the average for home/road difference would have put us in they playoffs another year or two over this time period.
by David S. Cohen on Jul 1, 2008 4:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That is one way of looking at it. Or, you could say that our record at home is who we truly are, and our road record is the mirage.
by Neduol Caz on Jul 1, 2008 11:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, phillywriter21 is correct.
It is a well known idiom that statistics are only as good as the way they are used. Instead of declaring phillywriter21 wrong, think about the logic behind your own argument. “The way to tell how good a team is at home compared to other teams is the difference in winning percentage between home and away.” The Phillies are above .500 in both categories (one of the few teams that is), and therefore the difference is small. THIS IS GOOD! To state the obvious, winning is hard to do, and it is great that the Phillies do well on the road and do even better at home. It would be silly to say “Well, if they did worse on the road, they would be better at home” but that is exactly the argument you’ll are making. Hell, consider the #1 team on this list, the Devil Rays, until this year the worst team in majors for a decade. Do you think playing in front of an empty stadium and having the best differential between home and away shows a team that has a great fanbase that the team adores? Or does it show a franchise that sucks and has players who’d rather not try as hard on the road as at home?
And frankly, the incredibly flawed logic that is being employed en-masse here is evidence of how blogs written by poorly qualified individuals (here’s looking at you, jonk) fulfill Buzz Bizzinger’s prophecies of blogs propagating ignorance.
by dlhunter on Jul 2, 2008 8:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Faulty logic
You make a few unsupported assumptions here.
First is that simply because the Phillies have played above .500 both at home and away, their percentage differential is necessarily small. This doesn’t follow. There is obviously a theoretical limit to what the differential can be, but I doubt that except in the case of extremely good or bad teams whether this limit has any practical effect.
Second is that a poor team with a bad fan base would somehow try harder at home. For that matter, you implicitly assume that the fanbase is responsible for the home field advantage. This again isn’t necessarily the case. Home field advantage could result from park effects, better rest due to not traveling, or other factors not considered.
But what’s weirdest to me is the way you twist jonk’s thesis. Home field advantage means you get a boost from playing at home. He was simply asking why the Phillies have gotten so little advantage from their home field. If they had lost more at home, it wouldn’t make them better at home, but it would make their home field advantage better. I don’t see what’s hard to grasp here.
by phatj on Jul 2, 2008 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It isn’t so much faulty logic as the fact that dlhunter doesn’t know what the word “advantage” means.
by taco pal on Jul 3, 2008 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A year ago...
I made this post and decided to bump it because of the ridiculously extreme HOME/ROAD split this year.
HOME: 12-14
ROAD: 19-6
That may be the most ridiculoust split ever after the first 51 games of the year. I don’t have the…well, desire…to look that up, but someone who gets paid to do so should (I am looking at you Jayson Stark, if you are still alive).
I’d love to say we have faced weak competition on the road, but we haven’t.
Colorado
Washington X2
Florida
St. Louis
NY Mets
NY Yankees
Cincinnati
San Diego
For Who? My teammates.
For What? To Win.
How Much? Where do I sign?
by jonk on Jun 4, 2009 11:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But we have faced weak competition
Overall, the weighted winning percentage of our road teams is .453.
by David S. Cohen on Jun 4, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was gonna say 9 away series and 5 of them again what are probably considered ‘weak’ teams (Florida, Washington, San Diego (yeah yeah, I know, they aren’t weak at home except, you know, they are), Colorado)
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 4, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you say weighted is it ‘record of teams we played on the road at home’ or overall records?
And can you do similarly for the home series?
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 4, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weighted
Overall records of the teams (as of right now, not as of the time they played the Phils) weighted by games played against the Phillies (so more weight for the Nationals’ horrible record since we played them 6 times in Washington already).
by David S. Cohen on Jun 4, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Home weighted opponents winning percentage
.470
So, a tougher home schedule so far, but nothing overwhelmingly tough. Basically, the Phils have had a very easy first 51 games.
by David S. Cohen on Jun 4, 2009 12:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rpi?sortColumn=sos
29th SOS in the league
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 4, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find that methodology is flawed with the small sample size. Let’s say you play 6 games against a .200 team and 6 games against two .550 teams. That averages out toa .375 opponents winning percentage, but you’d likely have a lesser win outcome than expected.
For Who? My teammates.
For What? To Win.
How Much? Where do I sign?
by jonk on Jun 4, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you check out the ESPN link, the phils are sort of inline (i think one game over) the ‘expected’ category.
The Dodgers are on the ‘exact’ pace – but then again – they get to play the NL West and are 25-9 against the west. (and 8-3 against the east)
"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."
Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.
by jemagee on Jun 4, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just got to your article tonight (post-Lidge BS) and found the discussion intriguing – because the original premise seems to state by definition that the Phillies have the worst home field advantage because they have the smallest positive difference between their home and away records. The numbers speak for themselves, so there really is no argument , just a question of why. Where I think some dispute the premise is the fact that “homefield advantage” can also mean other general things at different times, such as who plays better at home, or who gets an extra game at home in a playoff series. The fact that 11 of those 29 teams with a better homefield advantage actually have a poorer winning percentage at home than the Phillies also seems to take some of the steam out of saying that the Phillies “are practically playing with no homefield advantage.” The numbers may say one thing overall, but I also remember last October when the team won all its home games. As to why the team might not fare better at home over the regular season, I would offer the possibility that the players do try to do too much, put too much pressure on themselves, in order to please the home crowd. Nothing I could point to with numbers, just a feeling from following this team for nearly 50 years.
by phillyinportland on Jun 6, 2009 3:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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