Phillies Breakfast Links, October 14, 2009: Old Friends, Old Foes, Chan Hos.
Five questions about Philadelphia Phillies-Los Angeles Dodgers NLCS
Tim Kurkjian likes us! In seven games!
Sam Donnellon: Lidge shows he can make the save
Yes, because two games upends an entire season's worth of performance.
Lidge again saves when it matters
This is dangerous thinking, and it leads to disappointment.
Money can’t measure chemistry when it comes to Phillies
I do wonder how different all these "grit and hustle" puff pieces would have been had Jim Tracy had the brains to replace Huston Street with Joe Beimel when Ryan Howard came to the plate the other night. Would they be talking about a "super talented club that is underachieving"?
Phillies fans have embraced Ibanez' blue-collar style
I love Raul Ibanez's attitude and work ethic, but does anything about him really scream "blue collar"?
Dodgers’ third-base coach Larry Bowa knows Phillies, and their fans
I wonder how he felt about the guy leading the parade, on the wagon with his dog...
Phils-Yanks World Series in the works?
Some pretty interesting... um sorry, what?
Matthews: ALCS will have feel of World Series
Ah, I love the pre-emptive ex post facto reasoning.
Baseball Needs a Series That Will Truly Be a Fall Classic - NYTimes.com
Still, what Major League Baseball needs is a great World Series, a Series for the ages. And with all due respect to those two other potential matchups, it’s a Yankees-Dodgers World Series that could take the game back to its roots at a time when baseball desperately needs to recover a portion of the trust, if not the innocence, that it has lost in the steroid era.
So, in order to get past the "Steroid Era," baseball needs a World Series featuring Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez. Gotcha, New York Times. This is why no one buys your miserable rag anymore.
Philly, NYC May Go Head to Head—Twice
The Sports Complex parking lots would look like someone set off a suitcase nuke down there. And someone might just do that.
Park making progress
I say "Chan," you say "Ho!"
For Phillies, it's bullpen a la Manuel
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Report: Billy Wagner might retire, stop at 385 saves
Bye, Rat...
Torre keeping quiet on his rotation plans
WHAT WILL THE GENIUS DO TO DESTROY US?
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121 comments
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Comments
I think Matthews is on par with that putz Celizic for rational thinking. AL-philes seem to be overlooking the fact that most of the Phillies’ current roster has the ring from last year (Lee, Pedro, Happ, and Rauuuuuuul are the only non-ring guys that we’re likely to see, IMO).
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
by The Dark on Oct 14, 2009 8:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“I love Raul Ibanez’s attitude and work ethic, but does anything about him really scream “blue collar”?"
He’s not the prima-donna Burrell/Abreu?
For Who? My teammates.
For What? To Win.
How Much? Where do I sign?
by jonk on Oct 14, 2009 8:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
lousy, spoiled Venezuelan!
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Oct 14, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burrell was never really seen as a prima donna. He received a lot of criticism, but for different stated reasons. Also, although he had it rough at times, he was treated MUCH better than Abreu was despite there being no good reason for that distinction. Their experiences can’t be equated whatsoever.
I think it’s actually kind of gratifying in a way that Ibanez is getting more love than Burrell, irrationality notwithstanding. It at least goes to show that the irrationality of Philadelphia fans isn’t purely race-based. Raul is culturally kind of white, but most casual fans don’t know that.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Abreu’s aloofness did not sit well with me, and I imagine a large portion of the Philly Phaithful.
I’ll be the first to admit that he was an OBP machine while he was here, and a damned good hitter. He was comically over-rated in the field, and I don’t think he was a hustler.
The offensive category I conside a ‘hustle’ stat for guys with speed is triples, since average joes aren’t going to get a decent number of them. Guys who are burners AND hustle get triples. It’s easy to dog it into second and take the stand up double.
Abreu’s Yearly totals while a Phillie in those two cats:
1998: 2
1999: 11
2000: 10
2001: 4
2002: 6
2003: 1
2004: 1 (switch from vet to CBP)
2005: 1
2006: 2
After 2002, he quit trying for the extra base, and granted….the field dimensions became less triple friendly.
Rollins in 2002 = 10, 2003 = 6, but 2004 = 14. Granted he’s faster, and he has the stigma of not running out a ground ball once in a while, but when he is on the bases, he is moving from the minute he hits the bat.
Abreu never demonstrated that level of effort (which translates to caring) and that rubbed me the wrong way. Sorry. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, he was a real shirker playing 150-plus games every year, with close/late stats better than his overall numbers.
by dajafi on Oct 14, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on – perception matters more than reality – facts don’t change opinions – watching the game and seeing them ‘try’ is what matters.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’ve known me long enough to get that I’ll never pass up an opportunity to defend St. Bobby ;)
by dajafi on Oct 14, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you’ve known me long enough I’ll never pass up a chance to mock anyone who says ‘he didn’t try hard enough’ or ‘care enough’ cause I ‘saw it’ with my own eyes :)
Seriously though – angels/phillies – do you boo abreu?
I think the man deserves a standing O his first time back at CBP – I don’t care if it’s regular season, exhbition, or the world series…
I mean – aside from his big head, laziness and obvious steroid abuse :)
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course you boo. The point of going to a game is to root for your team to win and root for the other team to lose, particularly in the postseason. You apparently seem to think the point of going to a game is to bask in your own (rather groundless) sense of intellectual superiority over your peers, but you are wrong. Anything that can be done to negatively affect the other team’s performance is not only allowed, but obligatory. Bobby himself would likely understand that it isn’t personal, it’s just business. He’s the enemy (oh wait, I mean opponent, I forgot about the vast gulf between the meanings of those two words).
The only thing that would bother me about it in this case is that for a lot of Phillie fans, it would be personal too, and unjustifiably so. But that can’t be helped.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blizo is right – this place does need an ignore function.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the point of going to the game is to maximize my
personal enjoyment. It’s an epicurean approach, although ataraxia certainly resulted from my attendance of game 2 of the NLDS.
I think your premise that rooting is the primary reason to go may be true for some, but for others, it is a false premise. I suspect that it is unlikely that you will agree with JEM (and the Holograms), especially by stuffing straw men in his mouth: “You apparently seem to think the point of going to a game is to bask in your own (rather groundless) sense of intellectual superiority over your peers, but you are wrong.”
How about this:
Kumbaya, thy blog….Kumbaya….
Or perhaps consider this (http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/dhammapada-17.html):
Let go of anger.
Let go of pride.
When you are bound by nothing
You go beyond sorrow.
Anger is like a chariot careering wildly.
He who curbs his anger is the true charioteer.
Others merely hold the reins.
With gentleness overcome anger.
With generosity overcome meanness.
With truth overcome deceit.
Speak the truth.
Give whenever you can,
Never be angry.
These three steps will lead you
Into the presence of the gods.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Oct 14, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah, and this:

Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Oct 14, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I can’t stay mad after I see Mr. Positive.
That said, I deny putting words in anyone’s mouth. What i was doing was reading his motives, which I think is perfectly fair game. Also, I think it was accurate.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mr. Positive is actually Buddha
Plus, I bet he gets tons of chicks — he’s so disarming.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Oct 14, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Buddha wasn’t supposed to come back as anything, having reached Nirvana. But then, perhaps living the life of Mr. Positive is Nirvana.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mr. Positive is a Professional Encourager
it says so here
by Wet Luzinski on Oct 14, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am truly outrageous
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
playing 150 games means he didn’t get hurt.
Why didn’t he get hurt? Because he didn’t leg it out to 3rd and the wall was a giant monster that was going to kill him, so he refused to go near it.
I’m pretty sure ‘being clutch’ has been statistically unproven over and over.
I gave a stat to support my take on his ‘going through the motions’. You’re welcome to feel it’s not applicable. I don’t feel that way.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His triples numbers….you think his triples numbers are an indicator of anything>
Oh wait, that’s right, he was PADDING HIS DOUBLES STATS
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a few Abreu stats to ponder
baseball reference
Wikipedia Bobby Abreu
I’ll break it down for you. His accomplishments in 12 seasons as an everyday player, 1988-2009.
12 straight years of 150+ games with not less than 497 AB or 589 PA, which were in year 1 of 12.
30-30 club- 1 of 33 players and 1 of 11 with multiple years
400 2B- 65th of 159 with 483
2000+ hits- 203 of 259 with 2111
1000+ runs- 132 of 300 with 1270
1000+ rbi- 139 of 263 with 1187
top 500 HR- 178 with 256
top 500 SB- 108 with 348
As you can see, they are all quality numbers and if he plays 2 or 3 more years, he could be in the top 100 of each category (except maybe HR’s).
by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Oct 15, 2009 4:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s a hint for you – maybe Bobby Abreu knows better when he can safely make it to third to stretch a double into a triple as opposed to making and out as opposed to you.
Maybe he’s a smarter baseball player than you
Maybe he knows his limitation better than you ‘perceive’ you do.
Maybe you should try philaphans – they’ll like you – a lot
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It appears that avoiding the wall is actually a good thing
How many games did Rowand miss because he was too stupid to avoid the wall? Sure, people loved him for it. Sure, people thought he was gritty. But he was unable to help produce runs for the Phillies or take them away from the opponents because he hurt himself by acting foolishly. Better to let the ball hit the wall and give up a couple of runs than screw the line up for a month and take away an above-replacement level player.
Again, Abreu was a baseball genius. Unfortunately, he was not appreciated by people who want to see baseball played badly.
The game isn’t about machismo or “trying hard.” It is about scoring more runs that the opponent.
At this point, I suspect this thread is resulting from intentional trolling about Abreu. It is only to the extent that the example may be of utility to others that I made this post. I’ve come a long way in my appreciation of baseball and how it works over the last three years. Threads such as this one have helped.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Oct 14, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t rowand breaking his nose allow for a quicker realization that Shane Victorio was good enough to play center field? I forget.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And cheaper, to boot
Plus, I think letting Rowand go away in FA allowed an offset bonus pick, too. Jeez — this was eons ago. I can’t remember what I did yesterday.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Oct 14, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did like Rowand. I think the nose to the wall was a freak injury, and the bar got padding afterwards to decrease the likelihood of it happening again.
Unsafe field
Leads to injury
leads to fixing unsafe item.
that’s good process.
(IIRC Rowands catch caused the Phils to win a rain-shortened game and gave Gavin Floyd his first SO of his career. Phils beat the Mets that game). In hindsight it did turn out to be a tradeoff of one game for 3? months absence of CFer, but I’ll take that risk over letting every iffy ball that’s going to hit the wall anywhere become a double instead of an out.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Philly Fans really hate Ryan Howard too..
mostly because he’s black as well.
:)
(don’t live in Philly anymore, but I really didn’t think the phils fan base was racist when I did live there)
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that’s something you should joke about.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I won't joke, but will observe:
When I went to NLDS game 2 with my kid, I remembered something the professor said when he went to a game at CBP (paraphrasing): there are no black people there. To that, I would add: “other than minimum wage workers and players.”
It was appalling. It was a sea of white maleness. I have no problem with white males (I like myself rather a lot) but I saw, out of the hundreds in my section, not one person who was not obviously white. On the way in, I saw a couple of asian fans, but I did not see a single black person.
That has bugged me ever since. I do not know why or how this is or whether it is anyone’s “fault”. I’m not sure if it is objectively bad or good. It’s just that it seemed really strange.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Oct 14, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But is that a uniquely philadlephia thing or a problem with baseball in general.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea
As I mentioned in the OP:
“I do not know why or how this is or whether it is anyone’s "fault". I’m not sure if it is objectively bad or good. It’s just that it seemed really strange.”
I was at a Nats game in Sept., and it was pretty heavily white, but it was also almost entirely Phillies fans, so that really doesn’t help. When I’ve been to see the O’s, it’s been pretty white, too, but I wasn’t consciously looking at the crowd (other than for hot chicks).
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Oct 14, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure there are a lot of stories about how baseball is losing the ‘inner city’ youth (which is just media code right?) – for a long time…i might be mistaken though
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s the norm throughout the country. You see some more minorities in NY and LA, but mostly minorities other than African-Americans. I’ve gotten the impression that baseball is unusually popular among African-Americans in St. Louis for some reason, but I don’t know if that means they go to the games.
I think we just have to face the fact that in the U.S., baseball is a white sport. It’s played primarily by rich kids in the suburbs. American minorities who succeed in becoming MLB players largely do so not because they like the game that much but because they’re just that good at it. Baseball is the athletic version of alternative music.
Then again, even in basketball and football, which have more diverse fan bases, the actual crowds who go to the stadiums are still extremely white. And at least baseball isn’t as white as hockey.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a different issue. This issue is
“are all races philly (baseball) fans”
vs.
“are phillies fans more racist "
I was jesting in response to the phrase “It at least goes to show that the irrationality of Philadelphia fans isn’t purely race-based. Raul is culturally kind of white, but most casual fans don’t know that.”
The racial makeup of the fan base and the prejudice/racism of the fan base are two completely different entities, unless you’re asserting that only whites/blacks/hispanics/asians/etc….are racist, and I don’t think that’s what was being asserted.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a different issue because that time I was responding to a different person.
I do think the Phillies’ fans are somewhat racist. I doubt that they’re any more racist than the average baseball team’s fans. I’m also not saying they’re pure evil or anything like that. Almost everyone is at least a tiny bit racist deep down, that doesn’t necessarily make you a bad person. The Phillies’ fan base is probably a little more racist than I think should be tolerated, but it’s not like they’ll automatically like white players and dislike non-white players. There are a lot of factors that go into how the fans will treat a particular guy.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9CSnlb-ymA
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to see that tomorrow
Priceless.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Oct 14, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh my god, YOU’RE GARY COLEMAN
Why, Yes I am
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What were you expecting, the million man march?
The Phillies have damn near priced out most of the working people in the city, of whom blacks and latinos are an overwhelming majority.
I would venture to guess that at any given game, more than half the spectators on hand are middle to upper middle class whites from the Philadelphia suburbs and South Jersey.
So, in that sense, it is less of a racial thing than it is a class thing.
by FuquaManuel on Oct 14, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention that baseball just isn’t very popular among blacks.
by FuquaManuel on Oct 14, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The phillies have two very prominent players both who actually happent o be black, you’d think they’d be a draw to that community but are not.
And you’re right, baseball isn’t popular among blacks any more – but it used to be – which is why i asked if the phillies fan base was more the norm or out of the norm for make up – also factor in the racial make up of the city.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Class could well be the issue
Good point. I guess we need to figure out if baseball fans use “Facebook” or “MySpace”. If the divide is similar, then clearly it is class instead of race.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Oct 14, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously – there are class distinctions on BOTH those wastes of web space?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cut and paste
Sports writers must have a cut and paste function. Like a team? Use terms like “chemistry” and “destiny.” Like a player? Use terms like “grit,” “hustle,” and “blue collar.” Don’t like a team? Use terms like “doesn’t hit with runners in scoring position” or “too reliant on the long ball.” Don’t like a player? Use terms like “aloof” or “strikes out too much.”
by David S. Cohen on Oct 14, 2009 8:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So, in order to get past the “Steroid Era,” baseball needs a World Series featuring Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez. Gotcha, New York Times. This is why no one buys your miserable rag anymore.
This made me laugh… priceless
by Tron79 on Oct 14, 2009 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
NYT and NEWSDAY articles made me want to hurl.
Both of those writers should be flogged publicly and often. Phillies were dismissed as not having enough appeal or in mr matthews case as just not good enough. I think both these writers forgot two things. One, with a win in only 1/3 of the blown saves, we would have the second best record in baseball. And two, we are still the WORLD PHUCKING CHAMPIONS.
by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Oct 15, 2009 5:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everybody knows NYers think the world just ends once you cross the border.
by doubleh on Oct 15, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it’s the border to New Jersey they are kind of right…
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 15, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kurkijan article
I read that yesterday and the whole way he’s talking about how every advantage goes to the dodgers, and then he picks the Phils in 7?
what What WHAT?
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 9:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Does he talk about experience, being there before, grit, heart…etc…
You know – the reason the angels will beat the yankees is nick adenahrt right?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s a question I have for the writers who are know on the ‘lidge is healed’ kick.
In todays major league baseball – the closer comes into a save situation to start the 9th and is counted on to get all 3 outs. That’s how it works, that’s how joe nathan blew that game against the yankees and houston street blew game 4 against the phillies…cause they were the ‘closer’ so they pitch the 9th.
In game 4 brad lidge faced one batter to get his ‘save – he didn’t pitch the 9th – he didn’t fan 3 – he came in for a match up appearance, which shows maybe manuel thinking better, but I’m not sure how that one out combined with the shaky pitching on Sunday qualifies Lidge as anything as not sucking as much as he had at some points but he’s not exactly ‘right’…the death of journalism is not the internet – it’s the journalists itself.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 9:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bowa
Just read the Bowa piece. Always liked Bowa. Appreciate the effort he gave while here. I think his failure was that he just cared TOO much about the Phillies.
Larry Bowa coaching the Phillies is the reason that none of us could ever be the Phillies manager. Everything ate him up too quick. It took all of us a while to warm to Chollie from Mayberry, but he stays calm and erupts when needed.
Can you imagine how Bowa would’ve handled Lidge this year? (and in some fashions THAT might have actually been better….guarandamntee you Lidge wouldn’t have blown 11 saves with Bowa as manager!)
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 10:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
His failure was that he was a lousy manager – he failed in San Diego too – did he care too much about the padres?
If he hadn’t played for the phillies 1980 team he probably doesn’t even get the job.
Hires influenced by a guys playing days are stupid hires – they have no impact on his ability to do the job (See Cheeks, Maurice)
If we’re going to ‘remotely’ analyze Larry Bowa as you seem to enjoy doing – his temper is why he’s a lousy manager, and he’s allways had that temper…he isn’t thoughtful…and he’s quick to anger which makes one overly emotional which makes one not think as clearly…that doesn’t have to do with him being a phillie, it has to do with him being a hot head…period.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’ll see how many people think your idea that bowa ‘cared too much’ is the reason he failed versus – he is just a bad manager in more than one city
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't care less how much he cared
Results mattered, and he couldn’t figure out how to get better results.
by David S. Cohen on Oct 14, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in all fairness, he took a perpetually bad team and got them competitive. He couldn’t get over the hump and I agree he needed to go.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He gets credit for guys like utley and howard maturing and getting through the minors?
Again, this feels like a premise colored by your personal feelings for the person
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In fairness, I think the last thing Bilzo said was fair: Bowa took a team that consistently underachieved under Terry Francona, lit a fire under their ass, and they outplayed their pythag and very nearly won the division his first year. Obviously his style begins to grate on players very shortly, almost in a Bill Parcells (but without the history of success) kind of way, and the organization eventually needed to make a change.
by PhillyFriar on Oct 14, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cared too much? Wasn’t that O.J.’s explanation?
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More seriously: Bowa was simply a terrible manager. I use that word in its generic sense, not just in the sense of “baseball manager.” Can you imagine working for a supervisor like that in your workplace? Constantly loses his temper, publicly badmouths his subordinates, punishes you for every failure regardless of effort, doesn’t communicate with you one-on-one, and so on and so forth? Do you really think your workplace would be productive under a guy like that? Regardless of how much he might “care”? You might work hard out of fear at first, but after a certain point, you’re going to value your dignity too much to jump when he says jump.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a hard time believing that any manager in the history of the Philadelphia Phillies would’ve wanted to win a WS more than Bowa, and I can appreciate that.
That sentence does not read that Larry Bowa had the best chance of making the Phillies win a World Series, nor is it meant to.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what you’re saying is that his own selfish desire to be the manager to win the world series made him a terrible manager?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn’t exactly quick to take Jose Mesa out of the closing role in 2003, maybe the most painful of the “just missed ’em” years. This despite Rheal Cormier being almost unhittable that season.
I hear you on the “Bowa cared too much” point—I remember in his first year especially feeling gratified that someone who cared as much or more than I did was in charge. But a professional must have perspective—sometimes you have to accept the possibility of losing the battle in order to boost your chance to win the war. Do you remember the day/night doubleheader in ’04 when he used Wagner in both games? Wagner got hurt soon afterward, Worrell blew a bunch of saves while he was out, and the team went from first place at the break to buried by early September.
That was Bowa. He cared, yes, but he had no perspective, and he was a terrible “people manager”—the two things at which Manuel excels.
by dajafi on Oct 14, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My primary issue was that he didn’t JUST fail in Philadelphia, it’s not like he was a good manager other places, so I can’t give him points for ‘caring’ so much because it didn’t make a positive bit of difference…Bowa is just a bad baseball manager…he had more than one opportunity and ‘nostalgia’ probably kept him in the job at least one season too long.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear what you’re saying, but there was more than a decade between his flameout in San Diego and his tenure with the Phils. Torre wasn’t considered a good manager in his first four stops, before landing with the Yankees. Manuel I’m sure is better with the Phils than he was in Cleveland (though I get the sense he was okay with the Tribe). For the most part, like the rest of us, these guys get better with practice.
So I actually suspect Bowa was better in Philadelphia—remember he spent the interim working under Fregosi and Piniella, who were both decent managers—but still not close to good.
by dajafi on Oct 14, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, three stops for Torre, I think—Mets, Braves, Cardinals.
by dajafi on Oct 14, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My head is very fuzzy cause this flu lingers like herpes – but didn’t he work for the cubs at one point too? or was that just as a player?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
None of the above. Torre was with:
As player:
Braves (60-68)
Cardinals (69-74)
Yankees (75-77)
As manager:
Mets (77-81)
Braves (82-84)
Cardinals (90-95)
Yankees (96-07)
Dodgers (08-present)
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
by The Dark on Oct 14, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn replied to the wrong post – meant Bowa – didn’t bowa manage the cubs or bench coach or something?
Isnt Torre the poster child for the over rated impact of the manager?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it wasnt for Bowa, we might still have Scott Rolen (and not Feliz).
Having said that, Bowa did crack me up. Not saying I thought he was a good manager, but he was pretty funny when he was going ape shit on an ump.
by philiafan14364 on Oct 14, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NYT
Is there a word for the tendency of the media to indulge in fanboy crushes on athletes and teams with celebrity status instead of just reporting the news and letting the drama of sports play out on its own? Can we call it Favreism?
Usually it stays under the radar and when people engage in it they do it furtively, almost shamefully. This NYT article is one of those rare occasions where someone actually trumpets it and acts proud of it.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 10:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Giants’ Bochy, Sabean Rewarded With Extensions Despite Inept Offense
That made me laugh -
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 10:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
When does the NLCS roster have to be set?
There’s a couple of decisions that need to be made. If Park’s in, who’s out? Will we (wrongly, IMO) stick with a 5-man bench? Does Bastardo stick on the roster to pitch to Ethier in a big spot? What is Kyle Kendrick here for?
by PhillyFriar on Oct 14, 2009 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If you put Park in and an extra bench player…
1) Which bench player do you add?
2) Which one or two pitchers do you bounce?
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kendrick is the safety net.
He is on the roster in case we get shelled early and a game gets out of hand. You put him in, let him throw his 100 pitches and save the rest of the staff. You have to hope there’s not a need for him, but I understand the purpose. The fallacy to that approach is…
You have Pedro Martinez whom they’ve shown no interest in starting (let alone pitching at all), so he could just as well serve mop-up duty if necessary.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just hate the idea of a designated long man in a playoff series.
I mean, even if you go with a 7-man bullpen, you should still be able to cobble together 6 innings if your starter gets chased early. And no one will ever be asked to pitch 3 days in a row.
Especially if we do what dajafi suggested below (i.e. shift Happ to the bullpen), Happ’s capable of pitching 3 innings to save the rest of the bullpen. Keeping Kendrick around only to pitch in blowouts hamstrings what you can do with your bench in most games.
by PhillyFriar on Oct 14, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While Happ is capable of going 3 innings, I don’t think you want to have to burn him up to the point of unavailability the next game.
Then it becomes catch-22…use him now/save for later.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
isn’t that the point of hving a long man – so he can go 3-4 innings in case of an emergency – you have to hope you don’t have that emergency 2 days in a row.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happ is too good a pitcher to have his role wasted in that fashion when he’s arguably been the second best starter on the team since he was given a position in that role.
Mop-up guy is usually the last guy in the bullpen and his job is to just wade through innings and save other peoples arms. He’s the sacrificial lamb.
I don’t want Happ eating up meaningless innings so that we have Chad Durbin available to pitch the next day.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think anyone’s saying you should aim to use Happ as the long man. You aim to use him as a lefty middle reliever. But if you need a long man, he’s capable of doing it.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose you could aruge that he’s been the third best starter since the arrival of cliff lee shuffled the order…2nd…i don’t think you’d win that argument (wins and ERA don’t count)
Though your concern about wasting a lefty over three innings so a righty is available the next day is a bit odd…but hey…maybe lefty/righty match ups don’t matter so much to you.
I’d rather have a guy in the bullpen who can go long innings if needed (for instance pedro tweaks something or blanton takes a liner off his knee) as opposed to having to burn through the entire pen one inning at a time and shredding it for the rest of the series.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i tried to be civil because you posted a reasonable statement...
but you had to try and paint me like an idiot when I compared Happ and Durbin who would both be arugable long men and not OOGs.
back to /ignore on you, this time for good.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I misunderstood
So you’re argument is that the long men should be the guy with less experience going more than one inning in the year than the guy who started many games and knows how to deal with multi inning outings?
Still doesn’t make any sense to me.
There’s no guarantee you HAVE to use a long reliever – but my preference is the guy who consistently KNOWS how to pitch more than one inning than the guy who doesn’t usually do it.
You seem to think that because Happ is there he’ll only be used in long relief whereas it might not even be possible, it’s just nice to have the option of someone who has gone 2+ innings most of the year…i don’t even know how many multiple inning outings durbin has this year but i’m betting it’s less than Happ.
Put your head back in the sand though – continue in your ignorance -
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and don’t hide in the ‘civil’ nonsense when you spout barely veiled racist comments about Bobby Abreu and couch them as you being a ‘fan’…it’s tiresome from eskin and it’s tiresome from you
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
…as opposed to having to burn through the entire pen one inning at a time and shredding it for the rest of the series.
That’s the thing though — in the playoffs, I don’t terribly mind having to use the whole bullpen if that’s what it takes to stay in a game. No one’s going to have to pitch more than back-to-back days, so if piecing together innings from a couple of different guys is the best way to stay in a game, then I’m okay with it. As you said, it’s probably not going to happen in back-to-back games anyway.
That’s my argument against keeping a designated long man (like Kendrick), anyway. As I think we all agree, it can be very helpful to have someone like Happ who can go 3 innings if need be, but isn’t really the long man per se.
by PhillyFriar on Oct 14, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because someone is a designated long man doesn’t mean they can’t be useful or used in other areas (though i thought the argument ws happ as the long man not kendrick) – having a guy in the bullpen who CAN give you multiple innings if needed gives you more flexibility. Having Happ available gives Manuel flexibility to use him one inning at a time or if Pedro / Blanton suck up in the first two innings he can run Happ (or kendrick) out there for multiple innings and still keep the phillies in the game.
I’d rather have an ‘extra’ starter in the pen for the long relief if needed than worry about scheduled starters pitching multiple innings in the 2nd game of the series and then hope for a snow out so an extra day of rest makes someone ready for a game :)
Seriously, just because someone can pitch long relief doesn’t mean they will – I just think the option of a guy who has been a starter all year in the pen coming out for multiple innings in a game is a good thing to have…though I was referring to happ not kendrick.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it’s semantics — I consider Kendrick a designated long man because that’s all he can do, while Happ can pitch in a variety of roles out of the pen.
Carrying the former is stupid, IMO, because it’s using up a roster spot on a guy who only has one role — a spot that could better be used on a 6th bench guy. Pitchers of the latter ilk, like Happ, are invaluable for their versatility.
by PhillyFriar on Oct 14, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why can’t Kendrick be used in one inning situations? I’m not being snarky – I’m just curios why you think he can’t – since his recall he hasn’t been that bad has he?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose he could, but it’s not a role he’s ever really pitched in before, and his pitching style doesn’t exactly lend itself to late-game situations (high contact rates, historical struggles against left-handed hitters). I’d be loathe to use the NLCS to experiment with a guy who doesn’t have swing-and-miss stuff pitching in a high leverage situation, or coming in with runners on base.
by PhillyFriar on Oct 14, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Kyle is better than he was, in his brief exhibitions. I’d still prefer to have him as the sacrifical lamb to pitch count over the other folks in the pen, because he has the ability to throw 75 pitches in an outing, whereas the other folks in the bullpen do not (or have not been used in that manner and are unaccustomed to it)
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just hate the idea of a designated long man in a playoff series.
+1
Makes no sence. Besides, if Kendricks the long man, whats Pedro?
by philiafan14364 on Oct 14, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d switch to 14/11 for this round. Add Mayberry and Park, subtract Kendrick and Bastardo. You can do that because Happ goes to the bullpen, meaning that you have both a long man and a second lefty (though not in the same game, obviously).
by dajafi on Oct 14, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed completely.
My worst fear: Kendrick stay at the expense of a 6th bench player, Happ stays in the rotation (leaving us with one bullpen lefty when Park replaces Bastardo), Pedro has absolutely no role.
by PhillyFriar on Oct 14, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wonder if pedro’s contract had some stipulation that he had to be carried on the post-season roster if possible and capable of pitching.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt it. But given the (to me obvious, to others evidently not, and I’m not certain I’m right about this…) preference to throw righties at the LA lineup, and Pedro’s seeming tendency to step it up in the spotlight (not to mention his pwnage of Manny), why in the world wouldn’t you want him starting a game against the Dodgers? I’d throw him in Game Two.
by dajafi on Oct 14, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would too, but it should be noted that Pedro’s probably barely faced Manny since 2000. That Pedro no longer exists.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s faced him once since then, on June 28, 2006. Manny went 1 for 3 with a double and a walk.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair point. And unfortunately it’s probably a bridge too far to assume that Manny has aged and declined as much as Pedro has…
by dajafi on Oct 14, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
since Manny’s off the HCG, does that “manny” still exist either?
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do realize that hCG isn’t a PED, right? It’s an adjunct? So when you keep saying “Manny’s off the hCG”, you’re not referring to his drug use for his strength and conditioning, but his drug use to keep his balls from shrinking. Are you that concerned about Manny’s ability to impregnate a woman?
by Steve J on Oct 14, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just his big head
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes steve....
but they didn’t catch manny with steroids, they caught him with the hcg, which is the circumstantial steroids evidence.
If I’d have said he was off steroids, some clown would’ve jumped all over me for saying that they never proved he was on them, just that he tested positive for HCG. And I didn’t keep saying it…said it once.
Chill.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does Martinez really play no role…a second right handed starter against the dodgers as an option wouldn’t be a horrible thing would it?
I mean have the phils even announced their rotation yet.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My fear is they see this same reasoning and think of Bruntlett’s “versatility” then give him the call instead of Mayberry despite not being as fast or as good in the OF, or clearly as good of a hitter.
Not that Mayberry was tearing the cover off the ball, but the threat of the long ball is there if they go to a lefty in the pen to negate Stairs. And Bruntlett looks much better with his ass cemented on the bench.
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Oct 14, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest, at this point I wouldn’t scream bloody murder if Bruntlett was the 6th guy on the bench, as long as Charlie was smart enough to use him the right way: as a pinch runner, utilityman, and the absolute last option to pinch hit.
I’d obviously prefer Mayberry, but if either bench player made the NLCS roster over Kendrick, I’d be happy.
by PhillyFriar on Oct 14, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. It just doesn’t make much sense having both Kendrick and Pedro in the pen to be long men. I wouldn’t be surprised if Walker or Condrey got a spot, although Durbin’s 8th inning in game 4 probably cemented a spot for him. Plenty of options, but carrying a 6th bench guy is most important, even if it’s solely for pinch running duties.
That’s why I wanted Berry called up before September so he could get on the roster. It’s not like he’s a future starter for us, so using him as a game changing pinch runner would’ve been a great luxury instead of a guy with ehh speed in Bruntlett or Mayberry.
by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsMichaelBourn on Oct 14, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I appreciate the caption and all – very funny – but Torre’s evil grin looking back at me when i open up the site is kind of scary
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 10:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Heh
I love the NYTimes burn!
Also, just to play Devil’s Advocate here:
Yes, because two games upends an entire season’s worth of performance.
Sometimes it does…just ask Huston Street.
by ajay on Oct 14, 2009 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It works in that direction, but not the other way
Street could fail in a small sample size, which does not result in a conclusion that he is a “bad” closer. Lidge’s body of work this year suggests that he is a bad closer…this year. The sample is bigger and less likely to give a false positive.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Oct 14, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it could result in the conclusion that maybe you go with Biemel who has better luck against lefties and you win the game :)
There are multiple ‘small sample size’ instances in this post season already that the ’’closer in the 9th" thing just needs to be looked at – Street in game 4 is the msot recent
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt
The Rockies sacrificed their season at the altar of the Cult of the Closer. Biemel was the matchup to go to. Conventionally, I think it may be useful to avoid burning your bullpen’s arms by maximizing matchups every game during the season by having someone who can usually get 3 outs in a particular spot.
When the season is on the line (uh…“high leverage”, perhaps — it doesn’t get any higher leverage than the 9th inning with a lead in the playoffs with the winning run hitting), I think the responsible decision is to go to the best available matchup rather than sticking with the best generalist you have, which is what Street essentially was.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Oct 14, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well put
And by contrast, Manuel had Eyre out there against the Colorado lefties to start the 9th. Absolutely the right call, and I devoutly hope Lidge’s small sample size success doesn’t change his thinking on this.
by dajafi on Oct 14, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually heard someone on ESPN call Tracy out for not using Biemel in the 9th because of the matchups – i almost fainted
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would imagine Tracy was worried about what would happen if Beimel failed. He wouldn’t have been able to keep Beimel in vs. Werth, so he would have been stuck trying to get through the rest of the inning with Matt Belisle and Jose Contreras.
Still, with two outs, he should have rolled the dice. You have more than a 70% chance of getting Howard out with a lefty.
by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s most interesting (i find) is that Charlie Manuel did do it the ‘right way’ – much to my surprise – he had Eyre in and then brought lidge in when the match up called for it and not just ’it’s the 9th inning – it’s closer time’ – maybe managers CAN change their spots?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s my thought too. You accept that Howard might tie it up or even hit a dinger for the lead, but it Beimel walks him, then he gets Werth with bases loaded, which personally…..I’d still take over Howard against a RHP as the go ahead run.
by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
9th inning final matchups
The points about which pitcher would have been better in the 9th inning Monday brought to mind a thought I had after the game – during the excitement I wasn’t thinking strategies the Rockies might employ. Tracy gets some credit, at least for not being a wimp, for having Street challenge both Utley and Howard rather than pitching around them. And for that we Phillies fans should be grateful. After there were two outs and one man on first, what if the strategy had been to look at the lineup ahead and the two-run lead and say, okay, fire strikes at Utley, don’t walk him, if he hits it out okay, but there’s an excellent chance he doesn’t. If he gets on and there’s still a lead you could have pitched around Howard, not give him anything to hit and probably walk him – or he strikes out going for bad pitches. So, if the bases are loaded and the lead is still two runs, why would you give Werth anything good to hit, the same as with Howard, when the guy on deck is either Cairo or Stairs or Bako (batting for Madson). Wouldn’t it have made more sense then to semi-intentionally walk Werth, even if it brought in the third run, if it got to a final matchup between Street and Stairs – and then they could bring in Beimel and you probably end the inning with the game on the line between Beimel and Cairo. Instead, the game was on the line to varying degrees with Utley, Howard and Werth. I realize any time you fill the bases you’re running a risk but the one weak spot offensively for the Phillies is their bench: the four bench players (Bako didn’t get up) went 0-8 with one walk in the series. The team as a whole hit .296. Sometimes the best way to beat a good team is to figure out how to avoid getting beat by their best hitters. Tracy didn’t do that.
by phillyinportland on Oct 15, 2009 2:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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