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In his column about the remaining playoff teams' closers (which I believe is behind the subscription wall), BP author John Perrotto offers this: "Manuel is admittedly not a numbers' guy and the Phillies have the only front office that does not employ a statistical analysis." (emphasis mine)

It's not entirely clear what this means, as they obviously use some statistics and some analysis of those statistics. I'm guessing he's saying they don't use advanced statistical analysis. But what exactly does that mean? Do they not even look at OBP? Are pitchers judged solely on wins?

Beyond the ambiguity though, at some point, you can't argue with success, especially if the Phils go even deeper into the playoffs this year (or win the World Series). But, you can wonder whether the success is more attributed to the luck of having an incredible core ripen (and stay healthy) at the same time as opposed to a well-thought-out design.

Regardless, interesting nugget here.

about 1 month ago Dsc04697_tiny David S. Cohen 52 comments 0 recs  | 

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Could be luck.

Also, maybe if everyone else is using stats, then the one team that doesn’t use stats gets a competitive advantage. Even if its method is inferior overall, the team will be able to get the very best players ranked under that method since everyone else will be competing for a different pool of players.

Or, maybe the Phillies are using non-statistical heuristics that correlate with the results a statistical analysis would give them – so they’re doing the same thing, just unconsciously. (Is that the right word, “heuristic”? Maybe I mean “proxy”?)

by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 1:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Typo?

It doesn’t really make sense as written. I wonder if they meanto to say that the Phillies do not technically employ a “statistical analyst”?

by irons21 on Oct 14, 2009 1:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I emailed the author and asked if it was a typo…

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And I just posted the same question in the comments section.

by David S. Cohen on Oct 14, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I actually only subscribed to BP for one month so i could get access to ONE article (seriously, if they charged 99 cents per article i would have just bought the article) that Eric Sediburns wrote because it’s pretty helpful in understanding SOME of the pitchFX data, but i forgot it was auto renewal (speaking of which, in terms of ‘shady’ business practices i think auto renewal on monthly subscriptions should be a choice not a default…)

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe this is a reply to your comment, for convenience, I will copy it here:

From 3n2sports
“That’s rather nit-picky. I can watch both players in your example take 10 swings in BP and pick the better starter and I’m no scout. What he means is rather clear, they do nothing to leverage analytics.”

Unfortunately, for me, that doesnt clarify the matter at all!

Any kind heart want to briefly explain what “leverage analytics” means?

by Whack8888 on Oct 15, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I figured out what he meant, he means analysis of leverage in game. That actually isnt all that disconcerting at all, as in my opinion that is sort of like hiring someone to do the manager’s job. Manual, this year, at least after dropping Lidge from the closer spot, seems to be using leverage pretty decently. Main ancedote is using Madson in high leverage spots in Games 3 or 4.

It would be nice if the Phillies did have somebody analyzing leverage and informing the manager on the various conclusions such that the manager’s abilities are increased, but the manager can probably do that on his own, along with other coaches and stuff like that

Also, if most teams have hired guys to analyze leverage situations, it certainly doesnt show up in bull pen use. Most teams still use something roughly based on the 7th inning guys, set up man, closer.

A leverage dependent bull pen would actually be awesome though, and I hope regardless of who is employed, the Phillies move towards that kind of flexible bull pen instead of the “roles” style pen.

by Whack8888 on Oct 15, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’d be curios to know how Perrotto comes to that information or is it just his observation in the way the phillies do things (like continuing to use Lidge when all available evidence says you shouldn’t)

It’s kind of an interesting statement that should require some support.

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 1:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I was just coming over here to post the same thing. Thanks David.

I’m wondering if they meant that the Phillies don’t have someone who’s sole job is to scout based on sabermetrics.

Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 14, 2009 1:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not as disturbing as the other thought – but still kind of disturbing (and has the stink of the dallas green influence) – you got 29 teams that have someone dedicated to determining if there’s some ‘hidden advantage’ out there that others are missing and only one team not…and that’s the team i root for.

Awesome.

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh, they’re doing okay using the chicken entrails.

(Seriously, while I’d prefer that they had someone looking at advanced metrics, they seem pretty well grounded in the core principles of how you build a great team: power and patience on offense, durable starters and strikeout relievers on the pitching side. You go high-upside plus “want-to” in the draft and invest in instructional resources to maximize the return.

That said, at some point, their success surely will harden into self-defeating arrogance and a belief that they’ve got this thing figured, at which point it’ll blow up in their faces and we’ll wander around in the desert again for awhile until new blood comes in.

All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.)

by dajafi on Oct 14, 2009 1:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Obviously they don’t use statistical analysis. They signed Pedro Feliz, didn’t they?

by FuquaManuel on Oct 14, 2009 2:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Im guessing you also attribute global warming to Pedro going 3-14 in the NLDS too, right? God, he hasnt been that bad.

by philiafan14364 on Oct 14, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He sucks. Period. I won’t stop saying it until people stop saying he isn’t THAT bad. He is THAT bad. We have two season’s worth of data to prove it.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 14, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tried that with carlos ruiz last year but that good 5 game series against the rays screwed me

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention the fact that he had an average season in 2007 and an above-average season in 2009, and posted solid high-level minor league stats in 2005 and 2006.

Feliz and Ruiz simply are not similar in any way. The difference is that FM’s attacks on Feliz, while perhaps a bit harsh, are fact-based. Your attacks on Ruiz are not.

by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Harsh, smarsh. ; ) If there weren’t such pervasive illusions among Phillies fans (not necessarily on this site) that he is a decent third baseman, I wouldn’t feel the need to be so harsh. I’m just “bending the stick” as Lenin would have said.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 14, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought Lenin spoke in russian – not English

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whatever you say sherrif

Mostly I gave up because the ‘future’ turned out to be not so good (Marson) so there really was no better option coming up any time soon.

Didn’t hear much about d’arnaud (sp?) this year – is he still viable?

Ruiz is a mediocre catcher over valued for his ‘game calling’ skills which have yet to be proven to exist

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ruiz had a very good offensive season for a catcher this year. Granted, his ’08 season was miserable until October, but he put up quite respectable numbers in ’07 and ’09.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 14, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A .780 OPS is nothing to sneeze at for a catcher. Plus, he brings pretty good on-base skills with a .355 OBP.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 14, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was frustrating to hear the TBS dudes in the last series call Ruiz, on multiple occasions, an aggressive hitter who doesn’t draw a lot of walks. He actually walks quite a bit.

by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that irked me as well. Ruiz is pretty good at turning the lineup over.

by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whether or not he’s “over valued” is purely subjective on your part. I’m sure some people overvalue him while other people undervalue him and still others value him just right. Maybe you only notice the people who overvalue him. Or maybe you only pay attention to positive comments people make about his defense, while paying no attention to the lack of credit people give him for his offense. The question that you ought to be trying to answer and the only question that really matters is “how good is Ruiz”? The answer is: he’s a perfectly competent major league catcher, not spectacular but almost certainly better than “mediocre.” And even if he were “mediocre,” that would be perfectly acceptable since we’re paying him in peanuts.

by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s the second time in two days you’ve felt the need to tell me ‘how to think’

Kindly shove it

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In other words, you can’t come up with a rebuttal to my argument. In that case, it would be more honorable for you to just admit it instead of throwing a fit.

by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You two are like the two preschoolers who, no matter what, can’t play nice.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 14, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Come on, like you can talk!

by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but there is no one person who I am always mixing it up with. You too seem to spar on a daily basis now.

My reputation around here has to do with being an extreme pessimist who sometimes curses profusely and says very hyperbolic things.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 14, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

From my admittedly biased perspective, I don’t feel like I treat this guy any different than anyone else. It’s just that he’s the only person who I then get an insulting attitude from in response. I generally get along with everyone else just fine. I don’t think he can say the same, so that probably means something.

by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

taco

I’ve just gone to ignoring anything he comments on. In today’s morning coffee, he spewed vitriol to everything I posted. I scrolled through it at the end and everytime there was a picture of me holding my dolphin, there was a black hat guy right under it.

just don’t respond to him. That’s his gig. If you don’t play back, it’ll cease to be fun. You can’t have a discussion with somebody who just insults you everytime you say anything, so just stop trying.

Seriously, it’s like the modern bully, except he can’t actually beat you up, so you don’t have to stand up to him. Ignore it, and it will go away. If you don’t acknowledge it, it won’t be any fun and it will eventually stop.

by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep

I think Ruiz is slightly above league average, and when you factor in his salary, he’s a big asset.
He makes contact, fields adequately, can hit for power, and is an above average runner for his speed.
He’s not Mike Piazza nor will he ever be, but he’s still better than a lot of the people being run out there at the #2 position.

by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ruiz

Another important thing about Ruiz is that there seems to be good interaction between him and the pitchers. I know I feel confident watching the games that he’s going to make the stops and the throws when needed, and I love the way he gets down so low with his targets. The catcher position is almost always important on the championship teams. I bet you can name almost every catcher on the championship teams back to the Blue Jays (Pat Borders!). The only ones that did not come quickly to my mind were Charles Johnson for the ’97 Marlins and Damian Miller (backed up by Rod Barajas) for the ’01 Diamondbacks. They are not all All-Stars, but they are solid, dependable performers for the most part. Ruiz is part of that tradition, better than a lot of other catchers from what I see.

by phillyinportland on Oct 15, 2009 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

loved liebs too, but used to drive me nuts how often a throw from the outfield would pop out of his glove when it came time to tag the runner. Chooch doesn’t have that problem.

by Bilzo on Oct 15, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He had 82 RBIs this year from the 7 hole, thats not bad.

by philiafan14364 on Oct 14, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And if he was even a marginally decent hitter he probably would have had 100. Counting stats don’t impress me.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 14, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he is a marginally decent hitter, especially for a catcher. If he were playing 1B or corner outfield, you could apply different expectations to him, but he’s a catcher, and that’ s really all its fair to judge him against.

by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait, you’re getting mixed up. FM’s 3:38 comment is about Feliz, not Ruiz.

by taco pal on Oct 14, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

whoops. thanks for the heads up. never mind. I’m with you FM. Feliz bad.

by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

pedro’s was worse than a pitcher at the plate this last series, but I guess it’s not his fault that he came up in at least 2 situations of bases loaded <2 outs and get a non run scoring GIDP once and a foul out the other time. If he does that when the bases aren’t loaded, we don’t get as angry I guess.

If they other guys could just play down to his level (ie…not get on base), we wouldn’t get as annoyed by his recent lack of his production.

by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw that as well, and it’s certainly disconcerting. As often as I rip on Dayton Moore, Ruben really isn’t any more statistically inclined — but it’s somehow worked out for him so far.

by PhillyFriar on Oct 14, 2009 3:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I found the following two paragraphs more disconcerting in regards to Manuels quotes about Lidge and how he thinks the past 3 outings show that he’s ‘all better’ as it were

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the rest of the article continues to indicate how charlie publicly seems to think that lidge is ‘all better’ and most likely will be his closer in the NLCS – and how lidge i

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 3:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This actually makes a great deal of sense to me. I am not against advanced stats by any means, or statistical analysis in general. Also, I am not very familiar with it. But from what I read on blogs and such that like advanced stats, it appears that they are not really all that helpful in making relatively major personal decisions. As a brief (and probably terrible, I dont usually come up with good ones) analogy, imagine you are an investor with 100 million dollars to invest. Would you a) look at the past ups and downs of a stock and then invest money based on statistical probabilities of those re occurring or b) research into the companies, figure out what products they are releasing, who is in charge and there history and all the other stuff like that.

Method a) would be analogous to stats whereas method b) would be analogous to a scouting department, also including coaches and other stuff like that. Method a) is much cheaper, but if you are investing so much money it probably makes sense to spend some money on the better information. Probably it makes sense to do both though, haha.

Also, again not to dismiss stat studies, but something like WAR I imagine would be almost completely worthless to a Front Office. WAR basically collects a bunch of data, and then mashes it into one number. Why not, if you have the resources, just analyze all the raw data?

All that said, I imagine things like OBP, HR and other similar stuff that are essentially counting stats are used. Those would basically just be raw data. It wouldnt make much sense not to ask how many HRs a guy hit last season! Even then, though, you would probably want to look at the guys home runs and determine 1) if he was lucky/unlucky, because of the Park, an excess of meatballs etc. 2) if he has “power” in his swing, such that his HR total from the previous year makes sense with what informed people generally know about hitting mechanics. There is probably more qualifiers on the HR stat, but that is all I can think of right now.

Interestingly, though they are the least reliable, I imagine defensive stats are actually the most helpful to a Front Office, as comparing Defense among players is very difficult, even if you pay a ton of scouts to watch a ton of film/games etc. It is probably an element of the game that is most susceptible to bias of human perception, though I could easily be wrong in this.

by Whack8888 on Oct 14, 2009 6:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

interesting take, but I’m not sure who easily you can compare stocks to people.

There are stats that take park factor, league average, etc into account.

The Phils seem to be have drafted pretty well: Utley, Rollins, Burrell, Hamels, Happ, Myers, Howard, Ruiz (?) all draftees. Pedro Martinez not a bad signee. Vic = Rule 5.
Ibanez = better than expected. Werth blossomed well too. Mid-season pitching pickups (Lee, Pedro, Blanton, Lohse) have been awesome.

Now there’ve been some mistake too, but even the stathead orgs make them. On the surface, it honestly hasn’t been a detriment yet.

by Bilzo on Oct 14, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And for people who just dismiss advanced metrics out of hand – i ask this question often – never really get an answer though.

Would you a) look at the past ups and downs of a stock and then invest money based on statistical probabilities of those re occurring or b) research into the companies, figure out what products they are releasing, who is in charge and there history and all the other stuff like that.

Hey – here’s an idea – Why can’t you do both a and b?

Why is it always an either or proposition for people…it just baffles me that those who dismiss advanced analysis out of hand (without any real knowledge of it) see it as an either or proposition.

Let me ask you something – would you rather be the red sox organization or the phillies organization – ownership – front office – whole ball of wax – who would you rather have in charge of your franchise?

Of course, keep in mind that the red sox are one of the major ‘advanced’ analytics franchises and even went so far as to hire some guy named bill james

SMART run business (or sports franchises) use ALL AVAILABLE data – not just some of it – they don’t ignore new things without testing them out to see their viability….these new metrics you seem to dismiss have a proven track record of working more often than not – how do you suppose the low payroll A’s stayed competitive for so long? Dumb luck or methodology that no one else was trying?

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

“Probably it makes sense to do both though, haha.”

I completely agree, haha

by Whack8888 on Oct 14, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The phillies dismissal of the idea ‘out of hand’ (seemingly since they are the only team with out ‘one’ on staff) is more telling as the kind of organization they are…a sort of behind the curve kind of club that gets there after everyone else and then goes ‘oh, you can do this too – would you look at that’.

That’s what is troubling to me – not that they are the only team ‘without’ but that this sort of represents a trend in ‘behindness’ that the phillies function in. At least that’s how i see it

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, one major flaw in my defense/explanation of why the Phillies dont have someone hired to do this stuff is that even if you want to use better data, it doesnt make much sense to ignore other data that is relatively cheap.

It doesnt make sense to say, ‘we are going to invest a lot of money into scouting and therefore dont even need to invest a minimal amount in statistical analysis.’

Going along with my guess that defense stats might be useful to a Front Office, I think that Pitch f/x data would be really helpful as well as run expectancy studies, ie, with this line up how many runs do we score, as well as if you bunt with 1 out what is the run expectancy as opposed to letting everyone swing etc.

The run expectancy stuff may be better used by the Manager, but the Front Office may benefit from it as well by putting different potential Phillies in various line up spots.

by Whack8888 on Oct 14, 2009 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m still waiting for the first manager with the balls to sit in the dugout with his laptop (or netbook) and run a few quick queries to test his thinking and see what he thinks :)

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 14, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha, that would be awesome

by Whack8888 on Oct 14, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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