Throwaway: Dodgers 2, Phillies 1
by dajafi on Oct 16, 2009 7:41 PM EDT
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Every postseason series, even the ones you win, seems to have at least one game that turns out to be a three-plus hour kick in the taint. That was today for the Phillies: after Pedro Martinez put on an absolute pitching clinic for seven innings and left with a 1-0 lead, the eighth inning turned into a nightmare of errors and misplays, pitching changes, and a crushing bases-loaded walk that forced in the decisive run as the Dodgers evened the series with a 2-1 win.
Early on, it was all about the pitchers. Former Phillie Vicente Padilla continued his unlikely renaissance--and, with free agency on the horizon, probably made himself a few extra million dollars--with an utterly superb performance: 7.1 innings, four hits, one run, one walk, six strikeouts. Utilizing both the vicious mid-90s fastball with movement that was his trademark with Philadelphia and a nasty curveball that mostly flummoxed Phils hitters, Padilla cruised all day. He made one mistake, on the curve, to Ryan Howard in the fourth; the Phils slugger crushed it for an opposite-field home run and a 1-0 advantage.
Martinez did the rest. Pitching for just the second time in a month, the future Hall of Famer kept the Dodgers hitters off balance all afternoon: their only two hits were a soft single to center by Russell Martin in the third and a Matt Kemp infield single off Martinez's glove in the fourth. In the seventh, his last inning, Martinez induced a weak Andre Ethier groundout and struck out longtime Red Sox teammate Manny Ramirez before James Loney flied out to deep center field. At 87 pitches, Martinez was done.
That didn't work out well. Chan Ho Park, who turned in maybe the best of a few great relief performances in Game One, began an eighth inning a lot of us will see in our nightmares if the Phils go on the lose this series. With the late-afternoon shadows crossing home plate and creeping past the foul line on the left side, Casey Blake ripped a single off the glove of Pedro Feliz, who had been guarding the line. Rafael Belliard followed with a bunt, which Park--shades of Scott Eyre in Game Three of the Rockies series--fell down trying to field: LA had men on first and second with none out. With Martin squaring to bunt, Park fell behind 3-0; he got the count back full, then induced what looked like an absolute dead double play ball to Feliz. He fired to Chase Utley at second for the force on Belliard, but with the catcher running, Utley threw the ball well wide of Howard at first. Pinch-runner Juan Pierre came around to score, and the game was tied with a man on first.
The horror show was just beginning. Jim Thome came on to pinch-hit for pitcher Hong-Chih Kuo; Charlie Manuel called on Scott Eyre to face the lefty slugger. But Thome dumped a pitch into right field for a single to put men at first and third with one out. Exit Eyre; enter Ryan Madson. Madson walked Rafael Furcal, loading the bases, but got ahead of Kemp with fastballs and struck him out with a changeup. With lefty Andre Ethier due, Manuel again took the walk to the mound, and waved in rookie lefty J.A. Happ. Happ got ahead of Ethier 1-2, but couldn't put him away--and on a full-count pitch, threw a fastball just low to walk in the run. Chad Durbin, the fifth pitcher of the inning, came on to pop up Ramirez, but the damage was done as the Phils could not rally against Jonathan Broxton in the ninth.
So the good news: the big win in Game One gave the Phils home-field advantage as the series shifts to Philadelphia for three games starting Sunday. The bad news: they were five outs from winning this game and putting a stranglehold on the series before Utley's error and the poor control from Madson and Happ squandered the edge. The worse news might be that they face Hiroki Kuroda in Game Three, whose career numbers against the Phillies should chill the blood: in 19 regular season innings facing the Phils, he's allowed six hits, five walks, and two runs, and he beat them in Game Three of last year's NLCS. On the plus side, ace Cliff Lee takes the ball for the Phils; he's won his lone career start against the Dodgers, and certainly doesn't seem fazed by the October spotlight.
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One Thing
Dodgers only hit two balls really well in this game, so it’s not like they are some indomnitable force. Split is what I imagined for this stop in LA, even if this was a gut-wrenching loss.
That’s what you call snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
ugh
I’m actually really worried about Utley’s apparently Knoblauchitis. Does anyone know if the problem extended over multiple seasons for Chuck?
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Didn’t it end his career?
last night you can excuse the exchange from rollins – that whole DP seemed off from the get go I think – ANY explanation for today?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 16, 2009 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
wikipedia (yeah, yeah) says
Once considered one of the game’s best fielders (in fact, ESPN personalities nicknamed him “Fundamentally Sound” Chuck Knoblauch), Knoblauch’s play deteriorated shortly into his Yankee career. In 1999 he began to have difficulty making accurate throws to first base, a condition sometimes referred to in baseball as “the yips” or “Steve Blass Disease”. By 2000, the problem had grown serious enough that he began seeing more playing time as a designated hitter.
Knoblauch tried various solutions to his problem, but his throwing would not improve. He made an unprecedented number of throwing errors, routinely making abnormal throws out of the reach of the first baseman. (During one game, an errant throw sailed into the crowd and hit sportscaster Keith Olbermann’s mother in the face.) Stumping commentators, fans, and himself, Knoblauch never fully recovered his throwing accuracy. He was reassigned to left field by manager Joe Torre, never to return to his old position.
His fielding stats are here. Here’s how it looks:
1991-1997: Averages about 10 E per season with Minnesota
1998: 13 E in 149 G
1999: 26 E in 150 G
2000: 15 E in 82 G
2001: Moved to OF
2002: Stays in OF
Retired.
Oh God. I don’t even want to think about this.
Because now what happens is the media harps on these mistakes and thus they are always at the front of mind, so then when he goes to throw over, he is thinking about it and he makes a bad throw. It’s a vicious cycle.
He needs to come out and turn a clean on on Sunday and just forget about it all.
by FuquaManuel on Oct 17, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
This line of reasoning assumes that Chase Utley is going to listen to what Ron Darling and Craig Sager have to say. Come on folks – Chuck Knoblauch was a total outlier of a case and hardly a golden rule by which second basemen will be measured for the rest of time.
Chase has made two bad plays in the 80 gazillion he has ever taken. He will take about 1,000 flips from some assistant coach in practice today and won’t make a throwing error for the rest of the playoffs.
Inhale…. Exhale….
Steve Sax disease
I watched both Sax and Knoblauch. With Sax it came on overnight, lasted a couple of seasons, but he eventually made it back to second. Knoblauch came out of spring training with it, it kept getting worse, they tried him in the outfield (same problem), then DH, then out of baseball. His last year was in the independent leagues…
I see the same symptoms with Utley – watching the ball leave his hand (instead of the target), hesitating and double-pumping on short throws, dart-throwing motion instead of a real baseball throw. EXACTLY what Sax and Knoblauch looked like…
It’s not the footwork, it’s in the head. I say Jen should get him in bed and loosen him up but good!
by SJDinAudubon on Oct 17, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
another good thought
It’s going to be cold and maybe rainy in Phila on Sunday night. Who knows, but it makes sense that in those conditions, the guy who pitched in Cleveland would have an advantage over the guy who pitched in Japan and SoCal.
That game blew, but just because a loss is painful doesn’t mean it has to be more significant than what it is – 1 loss. Just gotta roll with that punch.
Utley
I’d be dollars to donuts that his hip is bothering him again and it’s affecting his throws. Dude is going to try to grit it out as long as he can though.
"Want a donut go to dunkin donuts, want a linebacker go to Penn State."
- Cris Carter, NFL Draft, 4/25/09
OMG
Yahoo sports headline to the right: “Kobe Bryant lends L.A. magic to Dodgers win.”
Really? You gotta be kidding me…
Oh Charlie
I’m sorry, gotta put this one 100% on Charlie’s head. I suppose we should be used to it by now. You could hear crickets in Dodger stadium as long as Pedro was out there. Since the “bullpen woes” have been (over)hyped by the national media, just going to the bullpen at any time was the only thing to give these guys hope.
Just like the night before, Ruiz getting on would have allowed the pitcher’s spot to come up with less than two outs, allowing a bunt, saving 2 bench spots, and (apparently) the 49 relievers Charlie thinks he needs to get through an inning. Should have kept Park in last night after Chooch came through. Should have kept Pedro in tonight after Chooch came through. Just like when Martin got hit – Torre was going to pinch hit for Padilla, but the 8 hole hitter getting on allowed him to bunt and stay in the game.
I know Charlie won it all for us last year. I do appreciate that. I know he’s great with the players. I appreciate that, as well. (Perhaps he could inspire J-Roll a little more this series). AND I am used to the fact that his tactical moves lose us 12-15 games a year. But in a game like this, with such an obvious choice to make (leave Pedro in), he tried to play to his weakness – tactical managerial decisions.
Yes, Chase’s throw was horrible. Yes, J A needs to show us something, sometime. But without the inital bonehead pitching change, it’s all a moot point.
The Dodgers were dead in the water. Charlie fished ‘em out. Now they have life. It’s just a little spooky for my tastes.
Listen to what he says before you blame him
This loss was just as Pedro said – a lack of execution (coming from one of the only people who executed on our team). No one who knew anything about the game questioned Charlie’s decision to remove Pedro (plenty of people who knew nothing about the game did – see the national media’s questions after the game). The guy was gassed and said so after the game. As did Charlie. Can you fault a manager for saying “This guy is tired, old and hurt – we’re going to use him for X amount of time and then take him out” and then using him for X amount of time?
And his bullpen decisions, while seemingly frenetic, if you listened to the postgame press conference, were actually incredibly well thought out. While I might have done things differently, theres absolutely no way I can condemn him for making a dumb decision. He went to the matchups that, statistically, were most likely to work. Bravo. We played a good game and lost. Welcome to baseball.
yeah, “12-15 games” is just flatout idiotic.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Oct 17, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Also pretty disproven that any manager no matter how bad costs a team that many games.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 17, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess you could arrive at that number and sort of defend it by counting every time a manager makes a move that doesn’t work—which is not to say that it was a bad move, based on game situation and available info.
Like yesterday, the top of the 8th: man on first, pitcher’s spot coming up, Dobbs in the on-deck-circle: Torre takes out Padilla and puts in Kuo. Manuel counters by pulling Dobbs and sending up Francisco, an aggressive righty with power. He hits into a double play, and the Phils go on to lose. Right move (putting aside the whole “shoulda left Pedro in” argument which I don’t agree with), bad result.
I thought the analysis for managerial impact was already done a couple years ago – and even in the extremes they make at most 4 game difference in either direction?
Was it a ny times articles that summarized it?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 17, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, so Chase F*ed up a throw. The real loss has to be put on the bullpen. Charlie did what he could given what he has to play with. He changed pitchers at least 5 times in one inning. He should have put Happ start the inning instead of Park but oh well. It’s not like we got outplayed and it’s only one game. Rollins needs to start hitting more or he should be moved out of the leadoff position. Move everybody up one spot and make him the #6. It might take some pressure off him and he might explode. And it’s not like our #7 and #8 are bad so they can move him along if he manages to get on base. An away game split is a pretty good to open with and now we’re playing in OUR park the next three. I’d love it if Lee went into at least the 8th on Sunday too. Hopefully the bullpen pitchers will learn to hit the strike zone by then and we can wrap this up at home. Let’s go Phillies!!!
Yahoo must not have watched the game
Andre Ethier’s late walk helped the Dodgers overcome Pedro Martinez and tie the NLCS. * Recap * Blog: Should Manuel have pulled Martinez?
They make it sound like they beat pedro, not the bullpen, & yes, pedro should have went another innnng after the last 2 games where we used so many pitchers. but what ultimatly killed us, was once again utley throwing no where near howard,
let’s win the next 3 @ home & see who we play in the series, Go Phills
"Leave Michael Alone!" - said like that Brittany Spears fan on youtube
Pedro
Just playing a little devil’s advocate here by someone who worked today and didn’t see any of this game: either it was so obvious that it doesn’t need saying or Philly fans are too shocked to say much about what went well, but was anybody amazed at what Pedro Martinez did today. Could anyone have asked for more? Some seem to be saying Charlie Manuel messed up by lifting Pedro after seven shutout innings. To me it sounds like that was perfect timing – you don’t overuse a guy who hasn’t pitched in what, 16 days, and you leave the Dodgers aware that they didn’t do squat against Pedro if he’s needed again to start game six. Last time Pedro went through eight shutout innings, against the Mets, he may have overextended himself. His next two outings he gave up six runs in seven innings. Sure, it’s great to think you’ve got a guy who can keep getting the Dodgers out for another inning, maybe two, but what happens if he doesn’t? Your bullpen is ready with Park, who dominated the night before, and you have everyone at your disposal for six outs. I find it hard to criticize the manager for replacing Pedro when he did.
by phillyinportland on Oct 17, 2009 2:30 AM EDT reply actions
I’ve already said this on other boards tonight but I do think Charlie made the right choice to pull Pedro in the 8th. He was due to bat and putting in a pinch hitter- hoping for some insurance runs- was the way to go instead of letting Pedro hit and possibly overworking him for only 3 more outs because he certainly wasn’t going to overwork him to go the distance. He obviously has faith in the bullpen and had no idea one of those WTF innings was about to unfold. Unfortunately we came out short in the end but the bottom line at this point is it is only one game. The bullpen needs to find the strike zone before the next game or this series ends in Philly and we’re done. I’m not being pessimistic, I’m being a realist. Our starters can’t pitch 9 innings every game and our hitters aren’t going to put almost 10 runs up every game so we need to rely on our bullpen. I’ve been a Phillies fan nearly all of my 40 years and I’ve seen our good offensive teams fall short when pitching doesn’t come through. Last year we had it all-offense, defense, and pitching- and this year we’ve still got a strong hold but that bullpen has got to come through when we need them.
One change I would make though is move Rollins out of the leadoff spot because he’s not hitting well right now. Move everyone else up one position and put Rollins in the #6 and I bet with the pressure off him to constantly get on base he’ll explode offensively. Our #7 and #8 ain’t too shabby either and certainly have the ability to move him along if he gets on base, but right now it almost seems every time he comes up to bat he gets out, minus one time in game one.
Bottom line is although the Dodgers won they didn’t beat us. We beat ourselves. If we can correct this we’ll move on to the WS. If not it’s a L.O.N.G. time until spring break. Let’s Go Phillies!!! Duck the Fodgers!!! Beat L.A.!!!
Thanks - Can we hear a little more from the reasonable contingent?
I’m actually very pleased with how Charlie managed this game. Sure, I may have done things differently, but when he says things like “Thome was 0 for 7 career against Scott Eyre” and “Ethier is batting .194 against left handed pitching”…. how can we friggin fault the guy?
3 weeks ago: “Hey Charlie, cut the loyalty and baseball-wisdom crap and go with a more statistically sound approach for managing your pitchers!”
Today: “Charlie, you buffoon, trust your pitchers absolutely, statistics be damned!”
Someone had the gall to say that Charlie pulled a Grady Little by leaving Cole in in THE FIFTH on Thursday. Now people will take it one step further and say he should’ve left Pedro of the original “Grady Little” in because it was working?
Wow. What does this guy have to do to win our respect and merit a little bit of trust? Win a world series? Go to the NLCS 2 years in a row? He must be the worst manager in baseball.
well put
Almost every one of the decisions was eminently reasonable. The one you could take issue with was lifting Madson, who’d just struck out a very good hitter in Kemp, for Happ, an inexperienced pitcher (particularly as a reliever) coming into a game with utterly no margin for error. But Ethier’s numbers against lefties are what they are, and he compiled them in a much bigger sample than his three ABs against lefties in Game One. So even there it’s probably the right call.
The eighth inning yesterday was a series of horrific and implausible bad-luck moments. Sometimes you just have to shrug it off and give the fickle gods their due.
I personally would not have used Park because it was back-to-back games after his long layoff. But at the same time, I recognize that reasonable minds could disagree about that. Certainly if Charlie had started the inning with Madson and Madson had blown it, the airwaves would have been full of people screaming “Why didn’t you use Park after the way he pitched on Thursday?!?” And in any event, it’s not like Park even pitched all that bad. Two grounders (albeit hard grounders) and a bunt single. Nobody really pitched all that bad, to be honest. It was death by a thousand cuts.
Utley
It’s been two throws, that’s it, right? Or are there others that people are worried about? Last night’s was a normal play, but the one on Thursday was a rushed broken double play ball. Are people really worried about Knoblauch-itis over two throws, one of which wasn’t even a regular throw?
by David S. Cohen on Oct 17, 2009 12:40 PM EDT reply actions
In Park’s inning on Thursday, he had this weird rainbow-ish throw on a routine grounder.
I’m not freaking out, but the thought crossed my mind.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Oct 17, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I've seen more than a few of those rainbow throws to Howard all season long.
And that same thought has started to cross my mind as well.
by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Oct 17, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Pitching Pitching Pitching Utley Utley Utley PItching Pitching Pitching
The offense put up one run against Vicente Padilla – if any franchise is going to break this guys unexpected streak -it’s the franchise that knows him and his weaknesses better than any other.
Yes that 8th inning was a disaster, but the bad pitching still only gave up 2 runs.
The offense however, flat out disappointed repatedly, against a guy they should hve known how to own…too many guys are being too impatient and giving mediocre pitching an advanatage.
Can’t win if you don’t score runs no matter what else happens.
I think ‘sight’ has been lost of how bad the offense was yesterday because there are other things to point at that are more ‘dramatic’ – but I think the offense really needs to take some blame
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 17, 2009 4:55 PM EDT reply actions
You’re right, but at the same time it’s not like they reverted to ineptitude with RISP or anything. Padilla just flat out dominated them. There weren’t many opportunities to blow; twice in the late innings they got a guy to first and someone GIDP’d, and that was about it.
lack of patience at the plate makes it easier for a pitcher to ‘dominate’ a team.
Rollins and Vic and even Utley need better approaches…NOW
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Oct 17, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. To point the finger at Manual is crazy and at the bull pen is silly.
They Phils gave up 2 runs and lost, and the ‘blame’ pretty much has to go to the offense. I actually dont think blame is really appropriate in this game, anyway, because both teams played relatively well and the Dodgers just played better. These types of games happen, sort of like Game 1 where both teams had a lot going for them and the Phillies were able to win.
Have to put the brooms away, but the Phillies are in a fine place. It is always a funny mental game to play, how would people react if Games 1 and 2 had happened in opposite order? Probably everyone would be happy, even though the end result is the same ;)
At the same time, though, it is pretty damn frustrating to lose games in the bottom of the 8th on a bases loaded walk.
okay, listen for a sec
I completely agree with Jemagee. The reason they lost was not Utley’s error or Manuel’s pitching decisions. The reason they lost was they got beat by Vincente Padilla. I know you guys know this team and have watched them all year. How much did you really expect to win a one-run game going to the bullpen in the eighth? This was a textbook 2009 Phillies loss. The offense didn’t get it done all game. We needed to score some insurance because it would have been surprising to be able to hold that lead, even though we were only 6 outs away from doing just that. We have a man on base with one out in the 7th. Pedro is tired and chances are he’s not going get through even the 8th unscathed. (You know how competitive Pedro is; if he thought he should have been left in, he would have said so. Even if he didn’t say it directly to the media, we would know if he said it to Manuel in the dugout. He never said ‘leave me in.’) For Manuel to not try to capitalise offensively with a man on first and one out when he knows his pitcher is gassed would have been idiotic. You really think he should sit in the dugout thinking ’we’ve got a one run lead and our pitching has been bulletproof in the 8th and 9th innings all year, we don’t need this potential scoring opportunity, let’s just throw this inning away and get those six outs and call it a game’ ??? The Phils needed to score, they have been giving away leads in the 8th and 9th all season long. Manuel was nervous about the lead and went to Francisco to try and turn the order over and get some insurance. He wanted to Lidgeproof the game. It was a sound decision and it didn’t work out. You guys know this team, you know how they win games. They don’t win games 1-0. They rarely shutout teams. Also, we’ve barely seen Pedro pitch 7+ innings since acquiring him, so there are significant doubts about leaving him in; he hasn’t proven to Charlie or anyone that he’s capable of doing that.
As for Utley’s error, it happens. I find the comments here suggesting he has a chronic problem insulting and I think those of you that said such things should be embarrassed. If the errors continue, there may be cause for concern, but come on. This guy hasn’t earned your respect? After two errors he goes from being the best 2nd baseman in Phillies franchise history to a goat, with some even suggesting he might be deliberately throwing the game? Dajafi, whoever said that should be blacklisted from this blog. We know Utley is the hardest working guy on this team. We don’t expect this from him and it seems impossible that he could make two mistakes in 2 games, but give the guy some slack. He’s human and playoff pressure is incredibly intense, that’s what makes playoff baseball so riveting. If the media slags the guy, ok it’s the media, but reading that kind of stuff on here makes my stomach turn. Get a grip people.
As I know you know, the Phillies lost a game they shouldn’t have expected to win if they only mustered 4 hits. It was heartbreaking, only because the Dodgers beat us without getting the big hit. The Dodgers have nothing to feel good about the way they are playing. They are a beatable team and we could be up 2-0 them if we hadn’t made a couple mistakes or had hit a few more balls. But for the 2009 Phillies to win a game by getting only 4 hits would have been a miracle and that miracle didn’t happen. This team is not built that way. We earned a split and we should be going home confident not pointing fingers at everyone who did their jobs pretty much exactly (with the exception of Utley) the way they’ve have been doing them throughout the course of a very successful season.
Series tied 1-1
That’s nothing to be ashamed of and certainly nothing to indicate that it means the series has turned in the Dodgers’ favor. Under divisional play with a League Championship Series the Phillies have only been in seven of these before this year: five best of five and twice best of seven. The four times they won they were 1-1 three times; only last year did they win the first two. They have no previous LCS experience of coming home tied 1-1 in a best of seven series, but in both 1977 and 1983 they were 1-1 in LA, having lost game two. In best of seven series, the closest thing to what we have now are the 1993 World Series and the 2008 World Series. In 1993 they won game two and came home for three games, only to lose the next two. But last year, the situation against the Rays was exactly the same: won game one, lost game two, home for the next three. I’d say that in a seven game series you don’t have to worry much about momentum. You just have to figure out a way to win four games.
by phillyinportland on Oct 17, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Utley
Did somebody really say that here? If so, I’d be shocked if they weren’t making a (not all that funny) joke.
Though it gets to something that occurred to me today: maybe part of the reason people are so worked up about this loss is that the single biggest culprit was Utley, the guy we’ve imbued with almost mythic status. He’s our Derek Jeter, and we’re probably as slobbery and obnoxious about him as Yankees fans are about “the Captain.” A universe in which Chase Utley commits the error that (in part) costs the Phillies a playoff game is a universe that doesn’t make sense.
That aside, I agree with the substance of your post. And FWIW, I have to believe the players themselves are similarly even-keeled about it. They might not win the series, but if not it won’t be because “Game Two stayed with them” or any of that crap.
True, although that’s what the media will say the cause was if it happens.
Just heard Hugh Douglas attempting to rabble-rouse a bit on the Eagles pregame radio show about how Utley is getting unfairly special treatment. He has a point, but I think what’s unfair is how other players might get treated not how Utley is being treated now.
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