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A Tale of Two Lefties: Clifton Phifer Lee v. Carsten Charles Sabathia

Tomorrow night, Cliff Lee will face CC Sabathia in Game 1 of the 2009 World Series.  It's possible that the two lefties will face each other two more times over the course of the possible seven game series, as each manager has indicated that his ace lefty could pitch Games 1, 4, and 7 (if necessary).

The two aces share a lot in common besides both being lefties.  Both were initially drafted in the 1998 amateur draft, Sabathia by the Indians and Lee by the Orioles.  Sabathia was a first round pick who quickly signed.  Lee, a twentieth round pick, did not sign, re-entering the draft in 2000 when he was drafted by the Expos.  In 2002, before he had reached the majors, he was traded to the Indians as part of a package in the Bartolo Colon deadline deal.

Until 2008, both Lee and Sabathia spent their major league careers as Indians, with Sabathia being the better pitcher, although not by much.  From 2001 through mid-2008, Sabathia was 106-71 with a 3.83 ERA, 1.27 WHIP, and 116 ERA+  over 1528 innings.  From 2002 through mid-2009, Lee was 83-48 for the Indians with a 4.01 ERA, 1.31 WHIP, and 110 ERA+ over 1117 innings.

Even though Sabathia had the better career as an Indian, Lee's peak was better.  The two won back-to-back Cy Young Awards as Indians, but Lee had the better Cy Young season.  In 2007, Sabathia went 19-7 with a 3.21 ERA over 241 innings.  His ERA+ was 143 and his WARP3 was 7.2.  In Lee's 2008 Cy Young season, he went 22-3 with a 2.54 ERA over 223.1 innings.  His ERA+ was 175 with a WARP3 of 8.6.

Star-divide

Both Sabathia and Lee were traded in blockbuster mid-season trades that netted the Indians a good portion of a future lineup and rotation.  The Indians got Matt LaPorta, Rob Bryson, and Zach Jackson from the Brewers for Sabathia in July 2008.  A year later, they got Carlos Carrasco, Jason Knapp, Lou Marson, and Jason Donald from the Phillies for Lee.  Both players were then key cogs in getting their new team to the post-season, with Sabathia coming in fifth place in the NL Cy Young voting for his half-year of work for the Brewers and Cliff Lee anchoring an until-then shaky Phillies rotation in the second half of their third-in-a-row NL East championship season.

Both players have been excellent so far this post-season.  They've both pitched 3 games, allowed 4 runs, and have a 20:3 strikeout to walk ratio.  The big difference, if you can call it big, is that Lee has pitched more innings (24.1 to Sabathia's 22.2), and has allowed fewer earned runs (2 to Sabathia's 3).  Thus, Lee has an eye-popping 0.74 ERA compared to Sabathia's merely gaudy 1.19 ERA.

So what can we expect from these two in this series?  Both have faltered in their career against the opposing team.  In 9 career starts, Lee has a 4-4 record against the Yankees, posting a 5.02 ERA, 1.54 WHIP, and 39:18 strikeout to walk ratio.  In 4 career starts against the Phillies (including the post-season), Sabathia has a 1-2 record with a 5.55 ERA, 1.48 WHIP, and 17:8 strikeout to walk ratio.

Looking to splits, both pitchers have been better against right-handed hitters over their entire careers, although not drastically so.  For Sabathia, he has given up a .694 OPS to righties and .647 OPS to lefties.  For Lee, he has given up a .733 OPS to righties and .714 to lefties.  This year, however, it has been much more drastic for both pitchers.  For Sabathia, .681 for righties and .560 for lefties.  For Lee, .734 for righties and .583 for lefties.  Both teams' lefties should struggle against these pitchers.

At the new Yankee Stadium, both pitchers have done well this year, although with Cliff Lee having a very small sample size, of course.  Sabathia pitched 15 games during the regular season and had a 3.17 ERA and 1.13 WHIP.  Lee won the 1 game he pitched there this year, letting up 1 earned run in 6 innings, for a 1.50 ERA but a 1.67 WHIP.  At CBP, Lee was 3-2 with a 2.52 ERA and 1.01 WHIP.  Sabathia hasn't pitched in Philadelphia yet in his career. [EDIT: Sabathia has pitched one post-season game at CBP and no regular season games.  In that one game, he took the loss and had a 12.27 ERA, 3+ WHIP, and a 5:4 strikeout to walk ratio.  Clearly not good at all, the "small sample size" bell should be ringing loud and clear.]

Finally, how have the two done against the individual hitters in the opposing lineups?  Having been in the AL, Lee has a much longer track record against the Yankees' hitters and many have fared very well against him.  Only Raul Ibanez has seen Sabathia a significant number of times, although in limited at-bats the top of the Phillies lineup has dominated Sabathia.  (The numbers here include post-season plate appearances.)

PA BA OBP SLG OPS
Victorino 10 0.556 0.600 1.000 1.600
Rollins 14 0.385 0.429 0.769 1.198
Ibanez 43 0.275 0.326 0.525 0.851
Ruiz 5 0.400 0.400 0.400 0.800
Howard 9 0.333 0.333 0.444 0.777
Werth 8 0.250 0.250 0.500 0.750
Francisco 6 0.200 0.333 0.400 0.733
Feliz 8 0.125 0.125 0.250 0.375
Utley 6 0.000 0.167 0.000 0.167

PA BA OBP SLG OPS
Rodriguez 20 0.333 0.450 0.733 1.183
Teixeira 26 0.391 0.462 0.696 1.158
Jeter 30 0.407 0.467 0.519 0.986
Posada 22 0.286 0.273 0.667 0.940
Swisher 24 0.333 0.458 0.444 0.902
Cabrera 12 0.273 0.333 0.545 0.878
Matsui 19 0.294 0.368 0.412 0.780
Cano 19 0.222 0.263 0.222 0.485
Damon 23 0.091 0.130 0.091 0.221

 

With the track record for these two aces being so close, the best prediction is that the games they pitch should be close battles, at least as long as the starters stay in the game.

The only clear loser here is the Cleveland Indians.

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Phifer?

Really? His middle name is Phifer?

by Cormican on Oct 27, 2009 4:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

To Indians fans, this has to be like our 2001 (watching Schilling) and 2003 (watching Daulton) rolled into one.

by Wet Luzinski on Oct 27, 2009 4:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As an Indians and Phillies fan (raised in Cleveland, live in Philly now), it’s definitely bittersweet. The Sabathia trade was a much better one haul-wise than the Lee one, and I think everyone knew he was destined to be a Yankee anyway so it didn’t hurt as much seeing him leave.

As far as stats go, I’d really say to throw out anything Lee did 2007 and before, since he really has been an entirely different pitcher since the start of 2008. I mean, in ‘07 he spent some time in AAA and didn’t even make the postseason roster for the Tribe, whereas since the start of ‘08 he’s 36-16 with a 2.89 ERA in 65 starts (!) I’m really curious to see how Sabathia reacts under pressure — Lee has always seemed like a very cool character, whereas it is very clear in my memory still how Sabathia completely folded for the Indians vs. the Red Sox in 2007 (12 ER in 10.1 IP over two starts, ugh).

*sigh*

by zempf on Oct 27, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In 2 alcs games CC went 12 ip with 2 er

thats pretty cool and collected.

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Oct 27, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

*This year at least.

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Oct 27, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I know. Kinda makes me hate him folding in 2007 that much more, frankly. But the World Series is a different game, so we shall see.

*sigh*

by zempf on Oct 27, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I feel like his changeup is alot better

than when he was younger. Lately he’s been killin righties with it, did you see that in Cleveland back in the day or was he mostly FB/Slider?

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Oct 27, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The haul Shapiro extracted from the Brewers was better, especially when you consider: (1) that Michael Brantley was the PTBNL in the deal; and (2) that Shapiro was only auctioning off a half-season of Sabathia as opposed to one-and-a-half seasons of Lee.

And zempf is right regarding pre-2008 Lee. It may seem like manipulation and handpicking a specific sample, but it’s not: Lee has quite simply been a different pitcher since the beginning of last year. BP’s player profile on Lee from last year drives this point home, and it’s certainly worth a read for any subscribers.

by PhillyFriar on Oct 27, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, Lee was hurt for part of 2007, and arguably should have been shut down much sooner than he was. So, a lot of the bad stats he accumulated would not have been accumulated if a decision outside of his control had been made differently.

If you just throw out 2007 and use his cumulative stats from the periods both before and after that season, that might be the most accurate measurement.

by taco pal on Oct 27, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Based on the “who got the best player” theory, the Sabathia haul was better. Having said that, they really only got two significant prospects in that deal. The package the Phillies sent lacked the big-name headline grabber, but all four guys are legit prospects. It’s not that clear that the Sabathia haul will be better in the long-term.

by Jay on Oct 27, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2003 didn't bother me

Dutch wasn’t Dutch anymore.

by Cormican on Oct 27, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

speaking of pitching

Here’s Ken Rosenthal douching it up on the subject. Surprise!

Now, I really have no problem with people picking the Yankees to win this series, as long as it’s not in an insultingly small number of games. They did have a better regular-season record than us, after all, so it’s perfectly reasonable. But Rosenthal’s logic is all wrong, and his column is chock full of the worst kinds of bald, unsupported statements like "Start with Lee vs. Sabathia in Game 1 at Yankee Stadium. Until proven otherwise, every time Sabathia starts, it will be Advantage CC. " Why? He doesn’t even attempt to explain it.

by taco pal on Oct 27, 2009 8:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Scouts say the Phillies’ offense can be throttled if opponents pitch to weakness


Isn’t that true for every team in the history of baseball. I’m looking forward to the article in which he explains that every hit ball eventually lands thanks to the efforts of gravity. Insightful shit there Kenny.

by Cormican on Oct 27, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn

I quoted myself.

by Cormican on Oct 27, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And amazingly every team with more runs is the winner

Let’s go Phillies!!!

"The sea was angry that day, my friends." G. Costanza

by NJ lion on Oct 28, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's clear isn't it?

After reading my detailed analysis, Rosenthal is trusting his gut that CC has the advantage. After all, what good are stats really?

by David S. Cohen on Oct 27, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rosenthal’s great on the information front — there probably isn’t a guy more dialed-in on trade deadline day — but the analytical portion of what he writes is sorely lacking. I try to ignore the half-assed analysis and read him for what he knows (i.e. trade rumors).

by PhillyFriar on Oct 28, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sort of like a baseball version of Chris Mortensen I guess. But Mort doesn’t try to venture into analysis as much, plus he doesn’t have Rosenthal’s annoying smirk.

by taco pal on Oct 28, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, I missed it

Yeah, I knew something was wrong with that but went with the info on BR.com’s split page anyway. Since he has no regular season starts at CBP, they don’t list the stadium in his career splits. But, of course, he started here in the playoffs last year. I should have trusted my gut on that one.

So, that means he has one career start at CBP, going 0-1 with a 12.27 ERA and a 5:4 strikeout to walk ratio, with a 3+ WHIP. That’s not good. (Small sample size alert!)

by David S. Cohen on Oct 27, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sabathia

Sabathia definitely had quite the start to his career with the Indians. It seems like somewhere at the end of 2007, when he had reached 100 wins, it was mentioned that he was the youngest active pitcher with 100 wins and might be one of the few pitchers in the post-Glavine/Maddux/Clemens/Johnson generation to have a shot at 300 wins. He’s only 29 now, two years younger than Lee. He added 36 more wins to his total in the last two years; now that he’s on the Yankees he might continue winning 15-20 games a year for the next ten years. That aside, he could be like Clemens, who was not a great pitcher in the postseason until he joined the Yankees late in his career.

by phillyinportland on Oct 28, 2009 3:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs


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