Did You See What Joe Nathan Just Did?

by jemagee on Oct 9, 2009 9:35 PM EDT Comment 17 comments

So as if it was needed, but did anyone just see what 'uber closer' Joe Nathan just choked against the Yankees?

3-1 bottom of the 9th, Tex, A-Rod, Matsui the first 3. Tex leads off with a bullet t right field for a single and A-Rod slams a bomb to right center to tie it up (inning still going). Nathan ran the count 3-0 to A-Rod before the obligatory 3-0 called strike.

Here's the thing, they showed the numbers before hand, sure it's small sample size, but both Tex and A-Rod are 6-10 against Nathan. Maybe bringing in a guy who matches up better with each guy would have been a smarter move? And yet - no one will question it because Nathan is the 'closer' - I wonder who else in the pen has better numbers against those two - do you suppose gardenhire even checked?

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Look at those Yankee frauds cheering ARod.

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Oct 9, 2009 9:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Does this make A-Rod a “True Yankee”? In other words, would Yankees fans now rather have A-Rod at third base ahead of Scott Brosius?

by PhillyFriar on Oct 9, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Many many twits about how the monkey is off his back after one hit

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 9, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

…and now Tex is probably a “true Yankee.” The 3rd base umpire should be considered a true Yankee, too, after robbing Mauer of a double in the top of the 11th.

by PhillyFriar on Oct 9, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep, with the ensuing hits it would have scored at least one run.

by doubleh on Oct 9, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed. Stupid move. It’s one thing to gamble and lose, but if the hitters have a lot of recent success off of your closer, perhaps it’s not the best course of action to use him in that situation.

by doubleh on Oct 9, 2009 9:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Its because he was the “closer”.

by Ben16 on Oct 9, 2009 10:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That was kind of my point…if it’s the 8th inning and those 3 guys are due up – does Gardenhire put in a pitcher against which both Tex and A-Rod are 6 for the last 10 – or does he look for the best match ups to try and get them out?

It was still 3-1 – it was still a high leverage situation – but it’s the 8th inning – so he’d probably bring in the pitcher(s) he think would do the best to get these guys out (still has some righties left in the pen) – why does bullpen logic go out the window in the 9th inning.

The end was just the inevitable result of bad logic…logic that pervades a game no matter how ‘smart’ or ‘dumb’ a manager is.

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 9, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

why does bullpen logic go out the window in the 9th inning.

Because thats the way its done. Once you get to the ninth inning the closer comes in. It doesn’t matter if he is 6 for the last 10 against those guys. I agree with you, it makes no sense.

by Ben16 on Oct 9, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Isn’t Gardenhire seen as one of them ‘smart’ managers?

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 9, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, but hes also seen as a manager, so manager masks smart in the closer regard.

by philiafan14364 on Oct 10, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hear what you’re saying, but I don’t necessarily think going to Nathan is the wrong move there. Nathan’s not only their closer, he’s their best reliever as well, and while both Teixeira and A-Rod have had success against him, even you admit that the sample size isn’t tremendously large. With a switch-hitter, a right-hander, and a left-hander due up in the 9th, you have to go to your best guy against both sides of the plate — and that guy is Nathan.

Not trying to be contrarian, honestly. I mean, if you’re Gardenhire, you’ve already gone deep into your bullpen (using both Rauch and Guerrier), so who else do you go to?

by PhillyFriar on Oct 9, 2009 10:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He had some strong righties left…if you don’t have faith in guys on your roster in the playoffs they shouldn’t be on your roster.

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Oct 9, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What strong righties? Bobby Keppel? Jesse Crain? I hear what you’re saying about Nathan’s career numbers against Tex and A-Rod, but I’m sorry — that’s no justification for you to send out a vastly inferior pitcher to close out a playoff game.

by PhillyFriar on Oct 9, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I should add...

…that generally I’m in agreement with you over the asinine way in which bullpens are managed these days. That’s why I applaud what Joe Torre has done in the other NLDS — he’s gone to Broxton twice in the 8th inning (once with a lead, and once trailing) because Pujols was coming to the plate in a high leverage situation.

Incidentally, my frustration with Manuel yesterday stems almost entirely from what he did managing from a series standpoint, if you will, rather than an in-game tactical standpoint. He was using his best guys in what he saw as high leverage situations — that’s why he went to Happ with 1st and 3rd, nobody out, and some lefties due up. It may have submarined our starting situation for Game 3, but as far as in-game tactics go, it was substantially less asinine than the way Tracy used his bullpen (Belisle for key outs in the 7th, Betancourt against Utley/Howard in the 8th, etc.).

by PhillyFriar on Oct 9, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nice point, I am actually pretty sure the league will adapt eventually, and this type of thing will be considered a bad move. I am guessing that happens in about 30-40 years though, haha.

by Whack8888 on Oct 10, 2009 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It takes accountability away from the managers — “Well, he’s our closer, we stuck with him no matter what, he’s the one who got us here!” If you force managers to actually make ninth inning decisions there’s more room for “tactical errors” (not that sticking blindly with one pitcher, matchups/performance be damned, isn’t a tactical error, but it’s not perceived as such in the post-Eckersley, Mariano Rivera Era).

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Oct 11, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs