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Around SBN: An Explanation For Some Of The Perplexing HOF Snubs

For BA subscribers, full scouting reports are here, and John Manuel will host a chat here beginning at 3:00 p.m. The list itself is as follows:

1. Domonic Brown
2. Kyle Drabek
3. Michael Taylor
4. Travis d'Arnaud
5. Trevor May
6. Anthony Gose
7. Sebastian Valle
8. Jarred Cosart
9. Antonio Bastardo
10. Domingo Santana

about 2 years ago Phillyfriar__new2__tiny PhillyFriar 31 comments 0 recs  | 

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So Taylor is the one everyone wants to see next year but Brown currently higher than Taylor, is that purely an ‘upside’ kind of thing and Brown is farther away.

Would the ‘informed’ phillies minors followers agree with this listing and should I be concerned that bastardo is at 9?

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Nov 9, 2009 1:20 PM EST reply actions  

Yes, yes, yes (not sure I’m “informed,” but their top 7 was exactly what mine would have been), and no. Bastardo will be a decent major leaguer, either as a back of the rotation starter or a good lefty specialist. He’s an okay #9.

In addition to these ten guys, they have a lot of “lottery ticket” type athletic outfielders (Hewitt, Collier, James, Dugan, Hudson, Castro) one or two of whom could amount to something, and a ton of “inventory” arms in the high minors (Savery, Carpenter, Stutes, Worley, Flande, Cisco, Naylor, Monasterios) who could serve as decent MLB fill-ins or depth for trades. It’s a good system.

by dajafi on Nov 9, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

So Taylor is the one everyone wants to see next year but Brown currently higher than Taylor, is that purely an ‘upside’ kind of thing and Brown is farther away.

Yes.

should I be concerned that bastardo is at 9?

No.

by taco pal on Nov 9, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Brown has a higher ceiling, but is a year behind Taylor (theoretically). Bastardo at 9 is much higher than I would have expected.

by Cormican on Nov 9, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re right, Brown over Taylor is an upside thing. Brown has better physical tools — though that’s hardly a knock on Taylor — and despite being nearly 2 years younger, he’s only 1 level behind. Plus, Brown’s defensive upside is as a Gold Glove caliber right fielder, while Taylor’s is as an above average left fielder.

As for BA’s listing… though still tinkering, I’ve currently got the same top six, and in that order. Bastardo’s in my top ten as well, but I wouldn’t take that as an indictment of the system — you want to balance ceiling and floor in assessing prospects, and I think Bastardo is an odds on bet to be a solid bullpen lefty for a while. No shame in ranking him ahead of some of the higher upside but bigger risk guys, including Singleton, Colvin, Shreve, etc.

by PhillyFriar on Nov 9, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Would those be your top three other than BA’s ten?

by taco pal on Nov 9, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I haven’t really sat down to figure it out yet, but the difficult thing is what dajafi alluded to above: after the top prospects, there’s a slew of mid-level guys who could realistically slot in anywhere from 11 to 25 depending on what you emphasize in looking for prospects.

If I had to take an early crack at it, I’d say the top three aside from BA’s ten are: Brody Colvin, Scott Mathieson, and Jonathan Singleton. But as I said, there’s a lot of guys you could slot around there and I wouldn’t quibble with you.

by PhillyFriar on Nov 9, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

No infielders crack the top ten. But BA projects that Sebastian Valle (currently a catcher) will be our starting third baseman in a few years. Is that largely speculation on the part of BA based on his skills and the team’s needs, or is that where the team is actually working to develop him?

by Boundforbeach on Nov 9, 2009 1:42 PM EST reply actions  

I’d love to know the answer to this one myself.

My guess is that they realize that we have a gaping organizational hole at third base (let’s call it “The Rolen Curse”) and figure either that Valle will get moved there, or be dealt for someone who could provide an answer…

by dajafi on Nov 9, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Before of after they realizing that they have a gaping organizational hole at short stop?

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Nov 9, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that projected lineup has to be taken with a grain of salt. I think they just mess around when they do those.

I have no idea if the Phillies actually have any thoughts about moving Valle to 3B, but my hunch is that since there’s no one else to slot in at that position, and since there are two catchers on the top ten list, BA just thought they might as well pencil the second catcher in there.

by taco pal on Nov 9, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Valle’s scouting report mentioned that he and d’Arnaud were both fielding grounders at third “as the Phillies look ahead.” I wouldn’t read too much into that; I mean, it’s asinine to move a guy off catcher unless he proves that he can’t cut it there defensively. The organization is just keeping its options open in the event that both d’Arnaud and Valle turn out to be stud hitters, and they can’t plug the gaping hole at the hot corner.

But it’s important to remember that the BA people stress that the future lineups are just rampant speculation on their part.

by PhillyFriar on Nov 9, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Besides 8 or 9 years ago I thought the Phillies would have the best starting 5 in all of baseball with Bret Myers, Gavin Floyd and Ryan Madson anchoring the top 3 spots. We all see how that panned out. Considering the future is both fun and completely futile.

by Cormican on Nov 9, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, Freddy Garcia was a great pick-up for Floyd, and will be anchoring our rotation for at least the next three seasons, so you at least have that. . .

by layout ultimate on Nov 10, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for throwing water on my grease fire.

by Cormican on Nov 11, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Personally I think having a ‘back of the rotation bull pen guy’ who already has major league innings in your top 10 is an indictment of a system lacking serious depth – especially outside of pitching.

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Nov 9, 2009 1:47 PM EST reply actions  

They always put people with major league experience on these lists. They use ROY eligibility as their own eligibility cutoff.

by taco pal on Nov 9, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand that, but I"m not sure how it’s relevant to my point that a ‘back of the rotation/ bullpen guy’ is one of your 10 best pitching prospects….I find that disheartening…it indicates to me that while the phillies may have a nice ‘foamy top’ but once you get beyond the sprinkles and toppings there’s not a whole lot underneath.

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Nov 9, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Have you actually compared Bastardo to the #9 prospects in other organizations? I think you’d be surprised if you did.

by taco pal on Nov 9, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

A lot of it’s a personal preference thing, as I said above. You’d be perfectly justified in putting together a list that pushes Bastardo way down, and elevates guys like Collier, Hewitt, Hudson, Colvin, Pettibone, and Shreve. You’re just saying, “I value high upside guys more than low floor guys,” and that’s a perfectly acceptable position. But that’s not how BA does it, and that’s not how most prospect lists do it, and that’s what you have to understand when approaching these lists.

by PhillyFriar on Nov 9, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Last year’s BA rankings had a back of the rotation type guy as the Phillies #9 too. Some guy by the name of Happ. He was ranked ahead of players such as Jason Knapp (who would easily be top 10 if he wasn’t the key piece of the Lee trade), Valle, Gose, and others who have much more upside than Happ. Just because Bastardo is listed in the top 10 does not mean that there aren’t people behind him that won’t be better. BA has to balance the lottery/high ceiling guys with the guys who are going to be sure major leaguers.

by yosoysean on Nov 9, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Let’s not get too excited about Happ and his performance as Kendrick did unexpectedly well his rookie year as well…happ may still well be a back of the rotation pitcher

by jemagee on Nov 10, 2009 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Is Scott Mathieson no longer considered a prospect? Seems likely he would be under consideration for a job in the bullpen since the crapshow Lidge put us through last season and the upcoming surgery.

by Phils 2036 World CH on Nov 9, 2009 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

He’s technically still a prospect since he hasn’t thrown 50 major league innings, but he isn’t considered a classic “prospect” by some because of all of his injuries. He’ll definitely make my top 15, and I think he’s a good bet to end 2010 in the Phillies bullpen.

by PhillyFriar on Nov 9, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Barring another injury, I think Mathieson will wind up to be the more effective and way cheaper replacement of Brett Myers, relief pitcher. The end of his 2009 season was promising.

by Wet Luzinski on Nov 10, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Lost in Translation

Guys, I think what’s really lost in translation here is that our top 3 are all in the top 20 of baseball. Am I someone who is a prospect maven? No not really, but I do read enough to be dangerous and this is what I know. A really good friend of mine who works in the minor league systems, helped me write a really interesting article about how the minor league system works. It’s like a 1000 foot view and breaks down each league at a base level. I felt like I knew a lot about the minors until I wrote the article.

Anyhow, here is what I know about the top three. All three of these guys have exceeded expectations as they have progressed through their various levels with flying colors. All three of them are really great players and their orders are interchangeable depending on where we are in the season.

Another note. We somehow always bring promising catchers through our system. Valle is currently ripping Mexico up the last time I checked and d’Arnaud was 50/50 last year which is good enough for a catcher. If nothing else, we are not the Texas Rangers and we have been known to move our catchers. Great trading chips if nothing else.

On Brown and Taylor with their projections. The baseball world loves the 5 tool player, and if there was a prototypical 5 tool player, it’s Brown right now. He has the body, the swing, the speed, and the work ethic at this point. There are questions on his power at this point, but that is going to happen when someone has speed like him. Without a doubt he will put some mass on his body that’s already rather large. So basically, the dude has a limitless ceiling in the baseball world. I had the chance to see him about 3 or 4 times when he got called up to Reading and I left in shock after each game. He is just freakishly fast and can really hit.

Taylor is also an animal. He has legitimate power that is undeniable. He can also flat out rake and is definitely not a one trick pony. I have personally seen him about 9 or 10 times (over AA and AAA) and he can hit all over the zone, in any inning or situation. He has an insanely quick bat for how large he is and he is just a freak of nature. I hate to say it, for a lack of originality, but he sort of looks like a little Ryan Howard. I guess that can’t be a horrible thing when you were a ROY, MVP, and NLCS MVP. But because he is like Howard, I think his body type is what differentiates him and Brown. You never know if someone like that plumps up and fades away.

Drabek is someone who I have only seen one time. I had continual scheduling conflicts on getting to see him, or his starts were on the road. Even if I had seen him more, pitchers are so tough to gauge. Obviously he has dominant stuff at the AA level, but that needs to translate, along with him staying healthy both physically and mentally. What no one can deny is that he has multiple plus pitches and we have the luxury of bringing him along slowly. I just hope he doesn’t get bored along the way.

So to summarize, I think maybe two other organizations could match our top three. The Giants and Rangers. They both missed the playoffs and we got Cliff Lee from our system without sacrificing one of our top three. We are in excellent shape right now. Rueben literally walked into the Federal Reserve Chairman’s position. The only issue is that the Yanks are Goldman Sachs.

by hessshaun on Nov 9, 2009 3:41 PM EST reply actions  

im really happy about the future cant wait

eff you we winning anyway

by eagleswin on Nov 9, 2009 3:45 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks for update

So who is likely to contribute the most in Philly next year?

by phillynyc on Nov 9, 2009 10:22 PM EST reply actions  

Bastardo
Maybe Taylor

by Cormican on Nov 9, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Plus Drabek as a longshot candidate. Probably would need injuries or to put up Cole Hamels-like minor league numbers next season for it to happen.

by yosoysean on Nov 10, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks PF, for the post!

by Wet Luzinski on Nov 10, 2009 10:16 PM EST reply actions  

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