Roy Halladay in Philadelphia . . .
Well, let's be precise: Roy Halladay's image is in the Philadelphia Inquirer today, front page of the sports section. Which, in a way, means that Roy Halladay is in Philadelphia in that thousands of people in Philadelphia received this image at their home this morning.
Anyway, the speculation continues....
(Sorry about the headline here, but I couldn't resist.)
7 months ago
David S. Cohen
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Damn.
You had me excited!
"Red, it took me sixteen years to get here. You play me, and I'll give ya the best I got."
Meanwhile...
over on Bluebird Banter… the hoardes are grousing that they do not want J.A. Happ under any circumstances and Drabek.
http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2009/12/10/1194537/thursday-banterings-end-of-the
I understand wanting as much as you can get for a departing star. But don’t the folks over there realize that they aren’t in a position to demand our 3 best prospects? Shouldn’t they be looking at whatever deals they are offered through “how much better is this than what we will get when he leaves to FA”-colored lenses?
That was my initial reaction too. I wonder if they just don’t want to admit to themselves how badly Ricciardi botched the whole thing. Looking at the “haul” the Twins got for Santana, under similar circumstances, should provide a reality check.
If I’m the Phillies, I’m setting my ceiling at Taylor, Gose, and May. Happ simply can’t be a part of any deal, because the Phils simply don’t have enough starters to get by without him. If someone else beats that offer, then fine.
by PhillyFriar on Dec 11, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
They should
And I (politely, I believe) posted something over there to that effect.
I can’t really blame them, since I remember going through the whole Schilling thing ten years ago and thought that trading him should help rebuild a moribund franchise (though obviously Toronto’s in a better position now than the Phils were at that point). Roy is the Blue Jays right now. Rationality when it comes to the fans sometimes goes out the window in these types of situations.
But rationally speaking, their GM doesn’t have much of a leg to stand on given the NTC and Riccardi’s handling of the situation in July. It sucks for them, but I’m sure they know it’s true on some level.
understood. I followed that link only to see that Jays fans want Taylor, Drabek, AND Brown. I wanted to say something on how ridiculous that was, but held back.
They also cited what we traded for Lee to show how much we should be willing to give up…um guys…we made that offer for Halladay and you guys declined it.
But I was also very sad to see Schilling go…he was a local hero. We got Vincente Padilla…thats it.
by Clyde Simmons on Dec 11, 2009 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
What ever happened to Omar Daal? He wasn’t anything special, but he wasn’t terrible either. But then he just disappeared.
his shoulder went out on him, he had to have it surgically repaired and it was never the same
by Clyde Simmons on Dec 11, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with them.
I’d rather send them Drabek, Taylor and someone else low level.
Plus one guy compares what we paid for Lee, without noting that we would have Lee for 1+ seasons and Halladay for only one (per current contract). He also didn’t note that Happ and Taylor would be a better deal that what the Tribe got for Lee, as Carrasco and Marson’s stock had fallen and Donald’s stock dropped off a cliff. Knaap was the only player in that trade whose stock was, arguably, on the rise and he is a pitcher with a whole lot of projection and hope going on there.
If the Jays keep Halladay for the entire season and he leaves as a type A free Agent, they get 2 draft picks. What is the likliehood they get two players as good or better than Happ and Taylor?
Uggh. So we basically would piss away 7+ prospects to get one of these guys signed long term? I hate this. We already paid for Lee. I wish we would just sign him.
by Boundforbeach on Dec 11, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Doesn't sound like
Lee wants to re-sign, at least without first checking out the FA market.
I’ve read that several places and that Halladay is the one who is open to negotiating the long term contract when he is traded because he doesn’t like pitching as a lame duck.
+1 to both above
It sounds like Lee wants to hit free agency (could just be a negotiating ploy) and Halladay wants a long term contract. In other words you may have given up 4 prospects already and have nothing to show for it in 2011.
Could also be that Philly is allowing the Halladay rumors to continue as a negotiating ploy to get Lee to sign an extention? Just asking out loud.
I’ve said I thought this was true before.
I dunno though, if I was Lee I would want to hit the open market, its only a year away….he is bound to get a CC kind of deal.
by Clyde Simmons on Dec 11, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
I would rather have Doc than Lee (if Lee wants to test FA instead of inking a new deal). Because that would mean Doc would rather want to be here with a winner, whereas wanting to test FA means its all about the money for Lee. Just MHO. But as stated above, it could just be a negotiating ploy.
by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Dec 12, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
Wouldnt we get 2 picks for Lee (if)/when he leaves though?
by philiafan14364 on Dec 12, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t see why long-term Halladay would be worth giving up any of our big three prospects. Presumably he isn’t going to agree to a sub-market extension, so it’s not like it would give us any benefit beyond 2010 other than the benefit we could just as easily get anyway by using the same money to sign whichever free agents are available during the 2010 offseason.
I’ve read several pieces—of course, I always take them with a grain of salt—that indicate that Halladay really isn’t in it for the money—and isn’t just saying that for once. He has gotten big paychecks already, unlike Lee. He wants to be able to be close to his home, train in FL and play for a contender. That leaves only a few teams.
I’m not saying this means the Phils get him, because I don’t think they will, but I don’t think it’s impossible to do it without giving up the entire farm. The BJ’s don’t really have that much leverage because Ricciardi screwed things up, and Halladay is totally in the drivers’ seat.
This is the big difference in the BJB thread posted earlier between the Phillies fans and Blue Jays fans. Jays fans are assuming the extension for much of the same reasons you posted in your first paragraph, so they think there’s more value than Happ and Brown/Taylor. Unless the deal is specifically contingent on an extension, though, the trade should be made as if we’re only getting Doc for a year.
If you’re the type who believes that you strike while the iron is hot and go for three straight WS appearances (and 2 of 3 championships), it’s worth it to have a year of Lee/Halladay/Hamels (in some order) when none of the three prospects are likely to help much towards that end.
You’d miss the assumed production in the long term, and if you’re the type that values that instead then I agree there’s no reason to trade any of them.
I’d agree in any case there’s no reason to trade all of them and perhaps no reason to trade two of them.
I said this yesterday.
That I can’t figure out why Toronto seems to have this fascination with Happ. Ricky Romero, Brett Cecil, and Marc Rzepczynski are three young lefties who likely to project to be as good as — and in the case of Romero and possibly Cecil, better than — J.A. Adding another #4 starter to a rotation that’s already chock full of mid-rotation guys doesn’t seem like the best plan to me.
That being said, I wouldn’t surrender Drabek in any deal for Halladay at this point. So if they want a “major league ready starter,” they’ll have to make do with Cupcakes (unlikely) or a swingman type like Kendrick or Carpenter (also unlikely).
by PhillyFriar on Dec 11, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
If we trade cupcakes I am going to miss his nicknames.
by Clyde Simmons on Dec 11, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Joe Blanton, also referred to as Joey Bag o’ Donuts, Kentucky Joe, Cakes and various other references to his origins and girth.
Dude, saw the headline and nearly spit out my coffee. I’m crying foul, that was uncalled for.
Scar tissue is stronger than muscle tissue. Realize the strength, move on.
Does anyone know
what the range it’s going to take to sign either Lee or Doc long term? most likely we can’t have both, which would we keep if we could get him?
Wasn’t there talk of an extension for Lee earlier this week, then recent reports were he wanted to test free agency?
Chase Utley is so good that on one pitch he stole second, third and the shortstop's hat.
Via MLBTradeRumors
If this is true, I can’t see anything happening,
- Olney heard the Blue Jays’ asking price of the Phillies for Roy Halladay “is about the same” as it was in July. That doesn’t seem logical, but we are talking about two different GMs here. Olney was able to confirm the reported Halladay demands the Jays made of the Yankees: Jesus Montero, Joba Chamberlain or Phil Hughes, and more.
I wonder if we could get Halladay by throwing a bunch of prospects at the Jays.
Something like John Mayberry jr, Anthony Hewitt, Kyle Kendrick, Drew Carpenter, Anthony Gose & Jeremy Hamilton for Roy Halladay. That would be nice.
Those kind of deals never work. Gose could be on the key cogs in a deal for Halladay, but Carpenter, Kendrick and Mayberry are nothing but throw ins, and Hewitt quite frankly isn’t worth anything at this point.*
It’s quality, not quantity, the Jays will be after.
*Unless you’re trading with Pat Gillick (see Henry, C.J.).
Crazy
This whole affair is a buyers market type trade, they have to realize they are not really in a position to make too exorbitant of a demand. No matter who the player you do not sell your future. We will need Taylor or Brown when we replace Ibanez in left. Drabek is a no go, they have players who are as good as Happ. Why are they still hot on him? We can’t win with just Halladay, Hamels, and Lee we need a 4th and 5th starter.
We don't play stats, we play baseball.
Rosenthal with a doozy.
He speculates that the Phillies could include Lee as part of a multi-team Halladay deal, in order to: (1) not entirely deplete the farm system; and (2) get an ace who wants to stay long-term.
Hey, it’s silly season, after all.
At least he admits it’s wild speculation, unlike those who would write the same column and cite “anonymous baseball sources.” His theory is nuckin futz though.
by Boundforbeach on Dec 13, 2009 8:05 AM EST up reply actions
Also, two observations from peeking in at Bluebird Banter
1.) A number of Blue Jays fans seem to really, honestly believe that trading for Lee instead of Halladay is the reason the Phillies failed to win the World Series. Not even logic will sway them, it seems.
2.) As part of that, there’s a weird dynamic where they’re almost dismissive of Drabek, making snarky comments like, “Without Drabek in their system, the Phillies would have never won the World Series. Oh, wait….” At the same time, they’re insisting upon him being part of a Halladay deal.
For the most part it's one guy
and if that’s what he wants to believe, then let him at this point. None of the others do, at least on the first point. I mean, seriously, was Halladay going to win those games to such a degree they’d count twice? If so, then Cliff Lee got robbed of a second win against the Dodgers.
As for the second point, there’s no reason to pay attention to it. If Drabek isn’t a big deal, they don’t need him, right? So naturally a Halladay offer that didn’t include Drabek would be just fine for them(/him), right? Somehow, I don’t think so.
Mentality?
He complains about our mentality while belittling Lee? We won every game he started, the other pitchers after him especially Lidge blew it. Just what would Super Doc have done to change any thing? After Lee we had Martinez, Hamels, and Blanton. Martinez was over used, Hamels mentally imploded" special thanks to Fox camera crew" and Blanton did well enough to keep us in but Lidge lost it in the 9th. Still wondering why we pulled such a defensive shift against Texiera with Damon on base.
We don't play stats, we play baseball.
His point makes a certain sense
But you have to assume that Halladay would have started on short rest (which isn’t unreasonable since he’s previously done so with success) where Lee did not. Of course, dexfarkin didn’t suggest this.
No
But what he did suggest is this:
The organization ultimately failed in their decisions as their team was overmatched and beaten like a Salvation Army drum in the World Series.
Makes me sort of glad his team SUCKS
by Boundforbeach on Dec 13, 2009 8:18 AM EST up reply actions
That kind of revisionist history bugs me to no end. Yes, the Phillies lost pretty soundly, but it certainly wasn’t a blowout. This seems like either sour grapes or a general AL-centric superiority deal. Either (or neither) way, it’s just uncalled for and irritating.
hindsight
On the one hand, he seems to be arguing that the ends don’t justify the means — that the Phillies left the clearly superior pitcher on the table (his assertion), and the fact that things worked out doesn’t mean the Phillies made the right decision. Sort of like Tomas Perez starting at first base and hitting a walkoff home run doesn’t justify having him in your lineup. It’s a valid argument.
On the other hand, the seeming basic premise of his argument — personnel moves must be made for immediate benefit only — is pretty loopy, and undermines pretty much everything else he’s saying.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Yeah, I think you’re right, and said it better than I did.
Certainly, assuming that Halladay is far and away the better pitcher, the argument that the Phillies made the wrong move seems reasonable. But I’d expect the argument to be a systemic thing, i.e. that the signing is something that will bite the Phils eventually. Believing the immediate results of your signing to be eternally sustainable is a bit crazy, and I wouldn’t be horribly shocked to find that, in the long run, Halladay might have been the better get.
That he seems to be arguing the opposite — i.e. screw long-term planning, go for the gusto NOW — is what confounds me about the comment, I guess.
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