BLOCKBUSTER: Roy Halladay to Phillies, Cliff Lee to Mariners Three-Team Deal Very, Very, Very Close
by WholeCamels on Dec 14, 2009 4:59 PM EST
480 comments
The Phillies look to be awfully close to finally landing Blue Jays right-hander Roy Halladay. But the cost appears to be steep.
Nothing is final yet, but the Phillies will apparently be sending postseason hero Cliff Lee plus possibly prospects to the Seattle Mariners, for additional prospects to be flipped to Toronto. All very confusing, tons of moving parts, so I’m reluctant to post that this is a done deal.
Details notwithstanding, it appears that Roy Halladay will be a Phillie in 2010, and probably beyond… and Cliff Lee won’t be.
The good and bad of this trade will rest in how much money changes hands, and which prospects go where. The devil is absolutely in the details. Check back for analysis as this story progresses.
[9:15 PM UPDATE from Jayson Stark on ESPNews]:
His understanding of the deal:
Phillies send Lee, Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor and Travis D'Arnaud; get Roy Halladay and Phillippe Aumont. Yuck.
[5:45 UPDATE from Jayson Stark, who says the deal is close, but not final]:
As part of the deal, Halladay would agree to a three-year extension through 2013, with a vesting option that could lengthen the deal by another year or two, one source said. The extension is expected to guarantee Halladay in the neighborhood of $60 million, plus the $15.75 million he would make in 2010, the final year of his current contract.
According to a source who spoke with two teams involved in the trade, Toronto would get highly regarded Mariners pitching prospect Phillippe Aumont, Phillies catching prospect Travis d'Arnaud and another Phillies prospect in exchange for Halladay. Indications are that the Phillies have balked at Toronto's repeated requests for outfielder Domonic Brown, and the Phillies are offering highly touted outfielder Michael Taylor instead.
Seattle would also send two prospects to Philadelphia in exchange for Lee, who is a year away from free agency.
As of late Monday afternoon, the extension had not been agreed upon. And the Blue Jays and Phillies were still haggling over the final prospect. In addition, Phillies doctors would have to sign off on Halladay's physical.
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I am going to be crushed if Michael Taylor is in the deal. Isn’t sending Lee to the Mariners enough? Taylor is crucial to replace Jason Werth next year
apparently Taylor is involved and Brown isn’t now…
i dont trust anything anymore…it all feels like speculation at this point.
If the phillies game up ANYTHING for a swap of aces in this deal, I will be upset.
by Clyde Simmons on Dec 14, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
long-term
The difference is that they keep Halladay for years to come after the extension, at a considerably lower price than what Lee is looking for.
Not too thrilled with loosing Lee. I mean if this is our plan, I would have rather just held onto lee this year and then taken a shot at signing EITHER Lee or Halladay long term at the end of the year… I guess it’s a wait and see thing before we evaluate this
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
Why get nothing for Lee (two draft picks) when we can get Halladay for multiple years? This is a good move by Ruben, I’m just going to be upset if Michael Taylor has to go to get it done
Two picks is not "nothing".
Just saying.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Dec 14, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not nothing, but I think the Phillies seem to be fully entrenched in the win now mode. It would be a shame to deplete the farm now that it’s respectable. It hasn’t worked for the Mets, so why do we think it will work for us?
I agree that completely depleting the farm system would be a bad move, but this core offensive juggernaut is not going to be together for more than 2 more years…after that Howard is likely to be gone, Rollins will be in full decline and even Chase Utley will be on the wrong side of 32 (probably still awesome, but just saying). I think you have to try and win it all in 2010 and 2011 and hope that you still have enough pieces to remain competitive when this current core is not as good as they are (or no longer here)…
World Ph*cking Champs! That was fun - let's do it again...
by Jordan Ellel on Dec 14, 2009 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
Be nice if the front office folk were run by rationality instead of what the WIP crowd wants, no?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
I never said I wanted them to deplete the whole farm system here…that being said, I don’t think sitting pat on one more year of Cliff Lee is necessarily better than giving up a prospect and getting 5 years of Halladay. But there are going to be a lot of questions regarding the offensive side of the ball in 3 years as well…
World Ph*cking Champs! That was fun - let's do it again...
by Jordan Ellel on Dec 14, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
I agree.
I would’ve kept Lee also. Yeah, at least don’t trade away Taylor too…
"The punt to DeSean Jackson. The punt. Short, Jackson takes it at the 32. Looks for running room, reverses the field. He's at the 40. 50, 45, 40, 35, 30, He's gonna go!
"McNabb in the shotgun again. McNabb takes the snap, fakes, he's back, he's looking, he is going deep for DeSean Jackson, who races, has it! TOUCHDOWN!!! DeSean Jackson!!
by xADx GoGreen4Ever on Dec 14, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
It came down to money I've read.
Lee wants market value, Halladay would take less. Apparently?
"They say that nobody is perfect. Then they tell you practice makes perfect. I wish they'd make up their minds." - Wilt Chamberlain
Taylor/ Brown
While I think we should be able to get Halladay while only giving up Lee, if we do give up any prospects i’d rather it be Taylor then Brown. One more year in the minors is enough for Brown to replace Werth next year. Brown is the more highly touted and would be ready right around next year, while Taylor is ready to contribute now, but there is a logjam in the OF. All this is just a footnote though, because as I said, Lee alone should be enought to get it done.
I've heard
We’re trading Donovan McNabb in the deal. True?
“there’s no place like in bounds” click click
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
sorry… Just saw it and posted. I can’t keep up with the tweets, retractions and retweets. Head…is…ready…to…explode
by Boundforbeach on Dec 14, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
I'd guess
That based on conflicting reports, it’s one of Taylor/Brown. What bothers me about giving up either is the timing for them to be MLB-ready is perfect:
Taylor ready after this year —> replaces Werth in RF
Brown ready after 2011 —> replaces Ibanez in lineup and goes to RF, Taylor to LF
you now have a completely cost-controlled, young and talented outfield for the next 5-6 years (at least).
getting rid of one or the other messes with this perfect scenario. paying market value for corner outfield production is painful
Yankees beat reporter (blech) on Twitter says that Lee’s agent hasn’t heard anything yet: http://twitter.com/TylerKepner
Braunecker: “It’s premature to comment, but I would certainly think it would be disappointing for him. He’s obv enjoyed his time there.”
*sigh*
Ms beat writer
on ESPNews just now said that she’s hearing Lee is in the deal, and that Aumont and Gillies are possibly departing as well as one of Kelly and Morrow.
Nobody knows anything…
Thanks, WL, I was just going to say: if Rosenthal and Morosi are to be believed, then Taylor is definitely part of this deal. And if they’re right, then kudos to Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos for getting something of value when he essentially had no leverage.
Think of it this way: the Phillies were putting on the market 1 year of an ace pitcher with a salary of $9 million. No strings attached, no permission required, just an incredibly value commodity for 1 year. The Blue Jays, on the other hand, were putting on the market 1 year of an ace pitcher with a salary of $15.75 million and a no-trade clause that severely hampered their ability to deal him.
Clearly, the first pitcher is a more valuable commodity, and you shouldn’t need to include a Top 25 prospect on top of that pitcher in order to get a “lesser” commodity. And it doesn’t matter if the Mariners send us a prospect to make up for it — neither Saunders nor Gillies is as good as Taylor, simple as.
There is the fact
that Halladay is a better pitcher with a longer track record.
But still, Toronto is getting payroll relief and prospects. We shouldn’t need to put Taylor into this thing to make it fly
Still, where fans can also come down is that we lose a guy who got us our two World Series wins vs. the Yankees with a guy who could also give us two World Series wins vs. the Yankees.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
All is well, as long as we have Charlie Manuel.
I hope the Phils hold on to Brown, Drabek & Taylor. If its prospects the Jays want, give them Mayberry Jr., Kendrick, Carpenter, Bastardo, or Anthony Hewitt.
so....
Give them nothing?
Please, none of those guys have any value in a trade.
they’re not the Indians?
World Ph*cking Champs! That was fun - let's do it again...
by Jordan Ellel on Dec 14, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
The guys we gave to the Indians are actually good. That was a fair deal for both sides. Giving up anything more than that would have been us getting ripped off.
I think that’s debatable…they could be decent ball players, but all-in-all we made a GREAT trade there…gave up very little high value for an ace pitcher…
World Ph*cking Champs! That was fun - let's do it again...
by Jordan Ellel on Dec 14, 2009 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
right… so we’re running a three man rotation for the season then yes?
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Pedro, and….Kendrick? Drabek? Bastardo? That dude that pitched in May? (Lopez, perhaps?)
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Dec 14, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
exactly… a three man rotation… why is everyone including pedro… did i miss us resigning him?
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
Nope
But he would if asked. I think an incentive-based deal would be interesting to him, and he’s fun to watch.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Dec 14, 2009 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
Signing pedro requires a six man rotation since he needs 10 days between starts to be productive
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
I'd prefer sending Happ and someone lower down (Gose/D'Arnaud)
to letting Taylor or Brown go. I think Kendrick can step in to be a fifth starter in 2010, at least until Drabek is ready.
From Will Carroll - Dominic Brown involved
UPDATE: Jim Bowden (yes, that one) is reporting that Phillipe Aumont (SEA) and Dominic Brown (PHI) are two of the prospects involved. It’s still unclear if both will end up in Toronto, though that’s the clear implication.
The Bowden tweet
Was taken down, and it seems to have been discounted by most people already
No credibility
If you can’t spell the dude’s name right: It’s Domonic Brown
what do you think he is, a morin?
We will see a lot of “Dominics” the rest of this week. No sports copy editor will believe that spelling is accurate.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
true story
but they’ll look like IDIOTS, like that one dude who forgot to take his little remark out of his article, did
If we look at the net loss of prospects and net gain if we do in fact give up Brown or Taylor, I wouldn’t be too upset by this situation. Lose Knapp, Carassco, Marson, Donald, Taylor/Brown and gain Halladay for 5 years. I would assume if that had been the entirety of the exchange, we would’ve kept a position player. Regardless, I think this is a fair price to pay for Roy Halladay with a contract extension.
That’s just not the situation we find ourselves in. As far as I understand the relationship, we are in the strongest bargaining position, by far. We have an ace already – we will likely sign one or the other after this coming season. Not to mention Halladay really WANTS to pitch here. There’s absolutely no reason to give up a blue-chip prospect for a lateral move.
If we move a top prospect essentially solely for salary mitigation purposes I’m going to have nightmares…
We could have made the exact same deal with the Jays in mid season last year. Knapp, Marson, Donald, Taylor/Brown for Halladay. We would have had Roy for 1-1/2 years and possible extension.
I’m on the fence about this one.
And if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt
So what.
Lee pitched great, so no loss there. It’s not as if Halladay has magical powers that would have defeated the Yankees in games when he didn’t pitch.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Dec 14, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I agree with you
I’m just trying to rationalize this trade in some fashion, because so far I can’t see why we’d throw in someone like Brown or Taylor.
This is my point. I don’t think that’s a terrible hypothetical trade. But that’s not the way to look at it – there is absolutely no reason to give up a prospect of Brown or Taylor’s caliber in this deal. If Toronto demanded that, we should’ve had the same response we did to the Jays front office in July – we’ll see Roy in a few months, and you guys won’t be present at these meetings.
the same people that speculated we are giving up Taylor/Brown said we are KEEPING a prospect of the mariners.
by Clyde Simmons on Dec 14, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
John, how about we break out those gloves and give it a shot?
"They say that nobody is perfect. Then they tell you practice makes perfect. I wish they'd make up their minds." - Wilt Chamberlain
Lefties aren’t allowed to play on that side of the infield or i’d give it a shot
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
I dunno how is Michael Saunders, that is the rumor…
by Clyde Simmons on Dec 14, 2009 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
simply
doesn’t make any sense. why we would we give up a superior prospect for an inferior one. here’s to hoping the dust clears and its just lee to mariners and Ms prospects to the jays.
I'm so confused.
"They say that nobody is perfect. Then they tell you practice makes perfect. I wish they'd make up their minds." - Wilt Chamberlain
exactly how I feel
I just want to know the details so I can figure out if I like this or not
Oh the Boy’s in December are frightful
But to me it’s just delightful
Jerry will tell the coach to go
How they blow, how they blow, how they blow.
I don’t know much about Morrow but his numbers from this past season indicate he was used mostly in relief?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
I think the man behind the green curtain here is Pat Gillick. I think he is calling all the decision makers in this deal and saying stuff to each one of them “on background” just to mess with their minds.
I mean, if I were Gillick, this would be so…much…fun.
well, if it involved the Orioles and a shooter from the grassy knoll…
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
Jayson Stark will be on with that misanelli clown according to a text i just received
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 5:48 PM EST reply actions
From ESPN:
According to a source who spoke with two teams involved in the trade, Toronto would get highly regarded Mariners pitching prospect Phillippe Aumont, Phillies catching prospect Travis d’Arnaud and another Phillies prospect in exchange for Halladay. Indications are that the Phillies have balked at Toronto’s repeated requests for outfielder Domonic Brown, and the Phillies are offering highly touted outfielder Michael Taylor instead.
and...
Seattle would also send two prospects to Philadelphia in exchange for Lee, who is a year away from free agency.
Translated: “Take my right nut instead of my left one.”
by FuquaManuel on Dec 14, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yea isn’t he our only good catching prospect left…
Oh the Boy’s in December are frightful
But to me it’s just delightful
Jerry will tell the coach to go
How they blow, how they blow, how they blow.
ESPN does say this
Seattle became an attractive match because of Aumont, the Mariners’ No. 1 pick in 2007 and a native of Quebec.
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
Ruiz looks pretty solid for at least a few more years doesn’t he?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but it would be nice to have someone coming up through the ranks that wasn’t some 50 yr old has been stashed away at Lehigh Valley.
Paul Bako-types on Rube’s speed dial. Partz is partz/
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Well that officially makes absolutely zero sense.
by Clyde Simmons on Dec 14, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
I’d be able to hold back my rage (with difficulty) if D’Arnaud were the only prospect leaving with Lee. D’Arnaud AND Taylor is an outrage.
D’Arnaud AND Taylor is an outrage.
A complete fucking outrage. It would be malfeasance of the highest order from Ruben Amaro and the front office.
Agreed
We get: Halladay (signed to an extension)
We give up: Lee (free agent in a year), D’Arnaud, Taylor
Doesn’t seem right.
by Screen Name 20 on Dec 14, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
You’d think if the Phils are giving up Lee (a lefty who proved his value in the playoffs) they wouldn’t have to send any top prospects to Toronto. Seattle would cover that part of the deal.
Agreed
Possibly only just a couple lower prospects since we’re signing Halladay to an extension and they’re taking a chance with Lee walking after next year.
by Screen Name 20 on Dec 14, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
From Stark:
As part of the deal, Halladay would agree to a three-year extension through 2013, with a vesting option that could lengthen the deal by another year or two, one source said. The extension is expected to guarantee Halladay in the neighborhood of $60 million, plus the $15.75 million he would make in 2010, the final year of his current contract.
According to a source who spoke with two teams involved in the trade, Toronto would get highly regarded Mariners pitching prospect Phillippe Aumont, Phillies catching prospect Travis d’Arnaud and another Phillies prospect in exchange for Halladay. Indications are that the Phillies have balked at Toronto’s repeated requests for outfielder Domonic Brown, and the Phillies are offering highly touted outfielder Michael Taylor instead.
Seattle would also send two prospects to Philadelphia in exchange for Lee, who is a year away from free agency.
As of late Monday afternoon, the extension had not been agreed upon. And the Blue Jays and Phillies were still haggling over the final prospect. In addition, Phillies doctors would have to sign off on Halladay’s physical.
The prospects coming to the phillies seem to be the most mysterious part of the deal? I wonder if it’s affected by who the phillies have to give up?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
is domonic brown a lot better than taylor or something?
or is it a potential thing
Oh the Boy’s in December are frightful
But to me it’s just delightful
Jerry will tell the coach to go
How they blow, how they blow, how they blow.
Some say Brown has a higher ceiling—comparable to Strawberry. Taylor is more of a sure thing—that’s what I’ve seen anyway.
If we’re giving up Lee, d’Arnaud & Taylor, we better be getting something decent in return from Seattle.
it all seems so circular
why give up prospects one way if they come back the other way? doesn’t seem to fit
Since the prospects from the Mariners to the phillies are unknown, organizational need?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Or if the SEA prospects cover our 3B need
by David S. Cohen on Dec 14, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Is there any ‘value’ to the fact that the pitching staff is now ‘less’ left handed?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 5:58 PM EST reply actions
Now there's a report floating out there
That Happ and Blanton are the principal pieces in the deal, not Lee.
Um.. yeah. I’m just going to go ahead and not look at this stuff until it becomes official tomorrow. Way too many conflicting reports.
If it’s happ alone i’m kind of happy cause that’s a ‘sell high’ kind of moment?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
Also I see Lee signing with Mariners, isn’t King Felix a free agent next year too, he will get way more then Lee on the market.
How much ‘more’ can he get and wouldn’t it make more sense to committ more money to the younger more dominant Hernandez than Cliff Lee?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
throw in a $50 mfg rebate and I’ll call you back.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
no, silly, Gillick is the puppetmaster.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
and we signed both Lee and Halladay long term
Even if both on the same roster, what kind of odds do you lay on the phillies paying TWO starting pitchers at least 20 million a year for 3-5 years?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
we are
at least that is what tom verducci says. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/tom_verducci/12/10/winter.meetings.phillies/index.html
If Lee is only going to get 10-15 million per year the phils would be quite silly not to sign him right now and not run into this prospect stripping race
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
Lee wants a Sabathia type contract.
I don’t think he’s getting seven years, but unless he craters in ’10 he absolutely will get $20m/year.
i’d be happy with .5% of that contract at this point
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
ESPN trying to bridge to the beginning of the college bowls that’s all
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
its sounds too good but its even on the front page of espn, sports illustrated.com and the local philly news have the halladay news on
eff you we winning anyway
Actually it sounds like the phillies may be violated by a broom stick according to many
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
He was very nice this year and Hannukah Harry promised him a surprise
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
boys, boys… the penis imagery and related literature…. enough already.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
This is a ploy from comcast to distract from how badly they’ve run the two ‘winter’ franchises into the ground
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:12 PM EST reply actions
Well I think the FCC would object.
But if Comcast wants to divest of its sporting franchises, I would approve
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4742072
Tim Kurkjin talking about the deal… basically knows nothing
Oh the Boy’s in December are frightful
But to me it’s just delightful
Jerry will tell the coach to go
How they blow, how they blow, how they blow.
he does say he doesn’t think lee is a definite which is a nice thought
Oh the Boy’s in December are frightful
But to me it’s just delightful
Jerry will tell the coach to go
How they blow, how they blow, how they blow.
From the Mariners point of view they should be giving up more than they reportedly are. This deal doesn’t make sense…I refuse to believe we are getting raped this hard
Where is that morrow report – was it a report of just someone mentioning morrows name and then morphing into a ‘report’ – cause most reports being reposed here are mysteriously ‘silent’ on the prospects that the mariners are giving the phillies that aren’t going to Toronto
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
Rosenthal and Moresi reported it at 3:56 pm
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/12/roy-halladay-rumors-monday-1.html
According to that page, starks 5 PM up date (I’m assuming eastern times) indicate that the phillies will only get one prospect from the mariners…
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
Is it just me or does it seem a little unorthodox that Halladay just rolls into Philly, and they are still working on the deal of prospects…. What if they do not agree on the prospect side of the deal, just seems way too random and weird IMO
Halladays extension is a part of the deal, if it doesn’t get agreed upon it falls apart just as much as if the prospects can’t get worked out. No reason they can’t work on both simultaneously (unless against MLB rules)
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
The whole point of the deal is that can(supposedly) get Halladay inked to an extension and they can’t get Lee.
Bluebird Banter seems to think so
they keep referring to Halladay + 6m over there, but I can’t say I’ve seen that anywhere else. Anyone?
ESPN has this to say for those hoping Lee isn’t in the deal, sort of reads like he has to be?
The Phillies also had to clear payroll space to accommodate the addition of Halladay. They attempted to do that by trading away Joe Blanton, but found they couldn’t get enough back to enable them to make a Halladay deal.
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:24 PM EST reply actions
Couldn't get enough back?
Who cares, get a bag of balls back, as long as we can clear salary for Lee and Halladay for a year.
by Screen Name 20 on Dec 14, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe they couldn’t get enough space back…i.e. no one would take on Blantons salary or required the phils to take salary back?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
You might be right
Surprising though. Team’s are always looking for a decent 3rd-4th starter, surprised we wouldn’t be able to find anybody willing to take on his salary. What’s it next year, $6M range?
by Screen Name 20 on Dec 14, 2009 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
5:29pm: Scott Lauber of the News Journal speculates that the Phillies “preliminary” talks with Lee last week regarding an extension beyond 2010 may have left the club with the impression that they were not going to receive any sort of discount from the ace.
5:20pm: Jon Heyman (via Twitter) hears that Morrow may not be leaving Seattle after all. He also hears that Aumont is likely involved the trade and “perhaps” Saunders as well.
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:49 PM EST reply actions
Why does a blank line turn off the italics tags?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
Short Sighted is short sighed and common sense is common sense
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
Uh...?
ESPN’s Jayson Stark heard this deal is close but not done. He says Halladay’s extension would be just three years and $60MM (starting in 2011), with possible vesting options for another year or two. Aside from Aumont, the M’s would also give up two others in the deal. The Jays would get Phils catching prospect Travis D’Arnaud and Domonic Brown or Michael Taylor plus one other player. The Blue Jays prefer Brown.
Jesus. If this is true, Ruben is seriously fucking up. I can’t possibly imagine what is going through his head…but he will have used up all of the goodwill 2009 generated if this happens.
No to Halladay.
This can’t be right. I’m trying to suppress my rage and see it from the other side, but it ain’t easy.
by Boundforbeach on Dec 14, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
I just don’t understand why the Phils have to send a top prospect to Toronto. Seattle is said to not have any Major league ready players in this deal. They should have to send at least SP Phillippe Aumont among others to Toronto. I don’t think the Phils should have to involve Drabek, Brown, or Taylor. I can see maybe throwing in a mid-level prospect like Trevor May, Matt Way, Anthony Gose, or John Mayberry Jr.
funny
Worth reading: Mets blog about an hour ago reported the rumor that we’re getting Halladay in exchange for Happ, Blanton and Brown….keeping Lee in Philly. They were jumping out of windows over there.
Just like to remind everyone, prospects are prospects, and CY Young Winners are Cy Young Winners. Just sayin
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 14, 2009 7:10 PM EST reply actions
And short sighted is short sighted and common sense is common sense…
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
We have a Cy Young winner…we can have him AND the prospects for one more year. Or we can have another (aging) Cy Young winner for 3-5 years (@15-20 million per) and lose said prospects.
Doesn’t make sense. If we are giving up a Cy Young winner, that should be enough…we shouldn’t have to give up the future of our aging team also.
This deal does make sense, you’re trading players for a guaranteed contract. We are in the same situation with Toronto, with both of the pitchers walking after their contracts. We get a horse for 3 more years versus losing Lee after this year. We lose some prospects, and get some back. Not exactly the end scenario that yall seem to be predicting
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 14, 2009 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
Stripping the minors only makes sense if you have an unlimited budget.
Last I checked, both the teams like that in MLB play in the AL east, not the NL East, north of Philadelphia
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
We’re not stripping the minors, we’re adding prospects back into the minors.
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 14, 2009 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
Much lesser prospects – and don’t forget all the prospects given up in the Lee deal – it’s cumulative…if you give up 2 prospects and only net one, that’s a loss on top of what you gave away to get Lee.
Again, if you have unlimited funding to bust slow and sign draft picks that’s great, but this is the phillies…you have a budget, and you are committing and awful lot to Halladay to guarantee nothing while depleting a top heavy minor league system (as I see it) of some of the best prospects
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
prospects that we necessarily couldnt play within the next 2 years. With Victorino and Werth clogging the outfield, only Raul I could see getting replaced. If we were losing a prospect 3rd baseman id be pissed, but we have outfield prospects, and outfield stars.
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 14, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
Or you could trade victorino when he’s as over valued as he’s going to get, get some good prospects back to fill those holes at SS and 3rd and not lose a step in the outfield.
Werth isn’t signed for that long and has been unusually healthy (for him) while in philadelphia, hmmm…now that I think about it
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
So, it’s either we get Roy Halladay which would solidify the top of our rotation, or we take solace in the solid outfield and wonder about our rotation. I think I’d rather have the solid rotation that’s proven versus the outfield which might be good in the future
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 14, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
well yeah. And with a NetFlix subscription, you can watch porn on it too.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
see, with a prospect, it would have MAYBE been porn, and MAYBE good porn.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
For me, anyway, it’s not a doomsday thing, but rather that I want to trust the front office to not get star struck and deal poorly because there’s a great pitcher available. It’s not reassuring, ever, to be a fan of a team making a bad deal, especially after you see the team finally becoming a perennial contender.
We get back prospects who aren’t as good as the prospects we’re giving up.
Prospects are the lifeblood of a franchise. Sometimes you need to trade them, but if you approach trades with a flip attitude like yours, you do so at your peril. You might as well liquidate your kids’ investment fund and buy a Plasma TV. The investments might never pan out! That must mean they’re worthless!
In other words, with a prospect, you have a chance to receive much more value than you invested, and you probably won’t receive significantly less. When you acquire an established Cy Young winner, you have roughly zero chance of receiving more value than you invested. You will probably receive a lot, but you might not, and either way you’re damn well going to invest a lot.
Is Cliff Lee not willing to take 60 million dollars with ‘somewhat’ makable vesting options?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:12 PM EST reply actions
Not sure, but for many players, the years are the main thing they care about, much more so than the per-year amounts.
Well he’s what i’m thinking – i know it’s silly but
6 years at 15 million is ‘cheaper’ than 5 years at 20 (assuming that halladay negotiates vesting options he’s confident he will make without major injury)
If the phils just talked to lee last week there’s no way they ‘exhausted’ negotiating optoins are there?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
still, I can’t imagine he’d have any reason, with his WS awesomeness in tow, to move much off of this statement that Stark quoted:
Lee told The Cleveland Plain-Dealer in August that when the Indians decided not to talk about an extension in Spring Training last year that it made little sense for him to talk about one after the 2009 season when he was so close to free agency.
“It doesn’t make sense to do it one year out when I just watched what CC [Sabathia] did,” said Lee, referring to Sabathia’s seven-year, $161 million contract.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
Well Will the yankees or red sox be in the market to over pay a pitcher next off season? That’s the gamble he takes
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
I thought the same thing. I wonder how blinded he is by the CC situation, which may not be replicated, given the economy. This offseason is interesting to me w/r/t the economy, as it seems the second-tier/big moneyed clubs (Dodgers, Cubs, Mariners, Giants, Cardinals, Angels Phillies) are making some profoundly questionable moves or non-moves. Below that tier are no potential suitors whatsoever for talent like his.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
oh yeah, and the Mets and Mariners too.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
The Dodgers have problems with ownership that I believe mean they’re going to end up being sold, and stripped for parts beforehand.
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
Jeez, way to put the lie to my market optimism, WL. Haha, I stand overly optimistic for the chances of poor spending.
People need jobs to go to MLB games regularly. I’ve posted before that this season Phillies fans have been myopic on this score—lots of franchises simply will not be FA players this season or next as long as prevailing conditions remain.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
The Clifford is taking a huge risk…i think maybe the phillies need to explain what a recession is to him.
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Why is this playing out like the phillies are the ones who have to make this trade when it’s the blue jays who have the sword of damocles ready to fall come spring training?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:14 PM EST reply actions
Yes, that’s how I feel. The Phillies should be the ones in the driver’s seat here. Instead it feels like Amaro is at the Blue Jays’ mercy. I wish J.P. was still there to f this up some how.
Keith Law claimed in a twitter that the blue jays were going to draft d’arnaud at 38 when the phils took him at 37…
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
This is the key point. The Blue Jays haven’t had leverage at any point in this Halladay situation, but while Ruben realized that in July, he’s somehow completely forgetting it in December.
I think some of you are overestimating our prospects and underestimating the awesomeness of Roy Halladay, at a below-market deal.
Lee plus top prospects is a lot to part with, but we don’t yet know which prospects are going or coming.
but our prospects are the best prospects in the world. Always have been.
ALWAYS.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
We should get Roy Halladay based on nickname badassness alone
Doc Halladay, the gunslinger of the west
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 14, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
we did have nickname issues with Cliff Lee, I’ll grant you that. But damn, I’ll miss him.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
My issue isn’t with dealing for Halladay — it’s Amaro not realizing that the Blue Jays have no leverage here. They have to deal Halladay before spring training, Doc has specified a handful of teams to whom he’d accept a trade, and the other suitors are falling by the wayside. I keep repeating it: as the situation is currently constituted, Cliff Lee is a more valuable asset than Roy Halladay, and there should be no need to include a Top 30 prospect, along with your catcher of the future, in a swap of the former for the latter.
Just last week our farm was named number 4 in all of baseball. That means that we can give away a propect or two who might be awesome, for the guaranteed awesomeness of Roy Haladay, and still have a GREAT farm system.
I mean it wasn’t too long ago that many people wanted to attach an untouchable label to Carlos Carrasco. Just sayin…
Wrong. The strength of your farm system has NOTHING to do with whether a particular trade is wise or not. All that matters is whether you’re giving up more than your receiving, and whether you’re giving up more than you could have given up to make the same deal. Having a strong farm system is NOT an excuse to make a bad trade.
Well except for the fact that you don’t know if it’s a bad trade yet.
You don’t know what we are getting back from the Mariners. You don’t know what we are giving up. You don’t know what we are signing Halladay for. You are just in hysterics about the rumor that we MIGHT give up some players that MIGHT be good.
You can scream all you want that it’s a bad trade, but nobody knows that. Especially if we were unable to resign Cliff Lee.
I would appreciate it if you would actually read my comments in their totality before taking half-assed guesses about what I think. All of our comments are obviously responses to specific proposed deals. I stated pretty clearly that in the final analysis, it depends on the details. That doesn’t mean that we can’t say that a particular proposal is bad, if it’s bad.
Your point applies a lot more to yourself than to me, because unlike me, you said that a trade for Halladay would be a good trade because of the strength of our farm system – i.e. a variable that has nothing to do with the identities of the people who are exchanged in the deal. In other words, it was you, you hypocrite, who thought you could evaluate the deal without knowing or caring who was involved in it – not me.
You are not making sense now.
I said Roy Halladay is awesome. This is pretty much universally agreed upon.
I said we could concievably give up 1-2 prospects and still have a great farm system, which is pretty rational thinking if the farm system was just rated fourth best in baseball.
Your first reply to those two items was, “Wrong.” Okay. So either Halladay isn’t awesome, or you have a much more bleak view of our farm system than most people. That’s cool. I see depth in the farm system and a great pitcher in Halladay locked up, you evidently don’t.
Perhaps you haven’t heard of the concept of subtext. It’s true that all you literally said is that Halladay is awesome and the farm system is strong. However, you would not have made those points unless you were suggesting that some conclusion should be drawn from them – namely, the conclusion that because our farm system is strong, this makes it a good idea to trade prospects for Halladay. That suggestion was wrong. If all you were saying was that Halladay is awesome and that our farm system is strong, with no logical relationship between those two points, then yes, your comment was accurate, if totally pointless.
You don’t know what we are getting back from the Mariners. You don’t know what we are giving up.
No, we don’t, not exactly anyway. What we do know is that the rumors have us giving up one of our top three prospects, and the Mariners literally have NO ONE in their system that would adequately replace them. Even d’Arnaud for Gillies is a wash at best.
We Win the Ace-for-Ace Part of the Deal. The Devil will be in the Prospect Details.
Halladay is, arguably, the best pitcher in baseball; inarguably, he is a top five. Lee is a cut below Halladay. We only have one year of Lee; we will have four years of Halladay. In Year 4, Halladay will be 36. This part of the deal is easy. We should be willing to pay something for this exchange of aces. The question now is how much do we have to pay.
It’s a little more complicated than that. Let’s say we don’t make the trade, then fail to re-sign Lee. We won’t be left with nothing. Rather, we’ll have an extra $20 million that we can use for other needs in the 2010 offseason (plus two extra draft picks). Whatever we’re able to get for that $20 million will probably be less valuable than a 33/34-year-old Roy Halladay, but it will make up for a chunk of that gap.
What you say is true, but does not alter the conclusion that four years of Halladay is much better than one year of Lee, money and draft choices notwithstanding.
Let’s find out who the prospects are in the deal.
by Derekcarstairs on Dec 14, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
So, most people have officially given up on Cole Hamels being great again?
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:41 PM EST reply actions
aw, jeebus no. Bad BABIP happens to everyone, but dreaminess, that’s forever. Cliff Lee was just a a summer-luvin’ fling. But Cole, he’s my man-crush of choice.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
Just saying it seems like people are forgetting there’s a pretty good pitcher here after next season even if Lee or Halladay are gone…
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
has Moyer been discharged from the hospital yet?
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
Mets fans are counting on this—on Metsblog they were saying (hoping) last season would end up being the norm for him.
Those guys are idiots. The SBN Mets blog commenters can be annoying but they seem to have a decent baseline level of intelligence. Metsblog seems to be targeted toward attracting the dregs of Mets fandom.
AA
The main crew at Amazin Avenue is pretty hip, MetsBlog though is just horrendous.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
with Oliver Perez on the roster, worrying what Cole Hamels is or isn’t going to do ought to be way down there on their list of pitching-related worries.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
I love that they think that signing Halladay to a 4 year deal cripples the Phillies, but what they did with Perez is no big deal.
Financially it does sort of ‘cripple’ the phillies in that they are a budget team – they have one – and paying a pitcher 20 mil combined with other salary committments makes dealing with other needs (see 3rd base) more problematic – or an injury that much harder to deal with
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
6:46pm: “People” tell Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun that Aumont is not a part of the deal (via Twitter).
MLB Trade Rumors
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 7:51 PM EST reply actions
I think we are all waiting here for the film at 11 (EST). The 6p cycle is played out.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
He said that earlier today when I saw him interviewed by CSN. I think everyone’s grasping at straws and no one knows exactly whom is included at this point.
I don't believe this
and by that I mean I dont’ think this is true. Reuben could have had Halladay without the extra trappings if he wanted to give Drabek. This would be done already otherwise.
I think the Phils winning the deal is all going to depend on the prospects we get (if any) from Seattle.
If we get some infield prospects, this could be a pretty awesome deal.
Otherwise…
Hopefully Taylor goes as the main prospect since there are so many other outfielders.
Yeah I read some disgruntled comments above about that and that is somewhat disheartening.
Pitching prospect are always nice, but I just hope Ruben realizes Lee is a very valuable commodity, and even getting Halladay for Lee straight up is not all that great.
I may be mistaken, but say 2011 rolls around and the Phils offer Lee arbitration (he declines obviously) and sign Type A free agent Halladay. Dont the Phils gain a draft pick?
Of course, with sandwiches as with prospects, a lot depends on the details of the particular sandwich.
I like a nice MLT—a mutton, lettuce and tomato sandwich, where the mutton is nice and lean and the tomato is ripe. They’re so perky, I love that.
I don’t think you mean what you think that word means.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
Since nobody has any clue who is goign where, I am going to throw out that I want Felix and Halladay for Lee, Blanton and Happ!
you got your head basketball coach fired, you have had enough good news for the day.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
Jim Salisbury says “Drabek and other top prospects” will be involved…I think it’s pretty safe ignore almost everything we’ve heard beyond the basic premise. The idea of the Phillies suddenly deciding to trade everything for Halladay now when they weren’t willing to in the summer doesn’t pass the D-U-H test.
I sure hope so. Sometimes it almost seems as if some of these scribes and talking heads and fans actively want the Phillies to overpay in prospects, solely because that will somehow serve as a demonstration of their commitment to winning or some b.s.
My sourced have confirmed that we traded Universal Health Care to Seattle, but Toronto has sent us World Peace.
Everybody wins.
I don’t want my government meddling in my World Peace.
oh wait.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
i think this is just an extremely clever ploy by Ruben and Co. At 11PM tonight, Lee will realize that he doesn’t want to go somewhere else and calls to say he’ll sign a 4 year extension @ 14.5M per. We extend an ace at a good price and keep our farm system! I love this plan!
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
Big moves, Big names, Big money, Big expectations, Big implications… Madness. Simply madness.
by andyreidswaistline on Dec 14, 2009 8:32 PM EST reply actions
This is crazy.
I’m getting real nervous. Tomorrow will be another wasted day at work as mlb trade rumors gets refreshed 1000 times an hour.
by Sorry About Dresden on Dec 14, 2009 8:34 PM EST reply actions
Please let this not be true.
Once the extension is complete, the Phillies are expected send three prospects to Toronto. A source identified those prospects as Drabek, outfielder Michael Taylor and catcher Travis D’Arnaud. The Blue Jays would also get a prospect from Seattle, possibly Canadian pitcher Phillippe Aumont. The Phillies could also end up with a prospect from Seattle. The Mariners are a key to the deal as they are expected to get Cliff Lee and his $9 million salary from the Phillies. The Phillies have a strict $140 million payroll so moving Lee appears to be a necessity.
Halladay will make $15.75 million in 2010. The Phillies are expected to cover the bulk of that salary with the $9 million they are freeing up by trading Lee, as well as a $6 million payout from the Blue Jays
Seattle would most likely be making out like bandits if this were the case.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Of course it's not, that's just ridiculous
I heard it’s Drabek, Hamels, Taylor, D’Arnaud and Lee.
by Screen Name 20 on Dec 14, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
that makes no sense at all… ruben would instantly be enemy #1 in Philly
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
The Phillies have a strict $140 million payroll so moving Lee appears to be a necessity.
What’s that stat about one player and a certain percentage of your payroll and not winning the world series?
at 20 mil with a strict 140, 1/7 of your payroll is a starting pitcher…who pitches every 5 days
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
so we get lee for next to nothing, and pay the world for doc..
fml.
by Sorry About Dresden on Dec 14, 2009 8:40 PM EST reply actions
Pure Speculation
I think the deal is not going to involve Lee, and instead it is going to be be Blanton and Happ to the M’s, who then send a prospect or two to the Jays and one or two to the Phils.
The Phils send one of Taylor, Brown, Drabek to the Jays and get Halladay.
Reasoning:
Phils are going to extend Halladay and (depending on attendance, merchandise and other revenue) are going to try and sign Lee. Taylor or Brown are somewhat unnecessary to the Phils because of the outfielder log jam.
Mariners are close to playoffs etc. and Happ is cheap and Blanton is somewhat cheap and not all that bad of a pitcher. Giving up 2-3 prospects for these two does not seem like a terrible trade to me.
Jays are going to probably get 3 prospects for Halladay, which is about all they can expect from him at this point. With one of the big Phils three, and some ?? decent M’s prospects, this deal is about as good as it gets for them.
I am trying to be objective here, but obviously I have some bias because I want the Phils to get a good trade. At the same time, this scenario seems to make pretty good sense for all teams involved and no one is really getting screwed or making out like a bandit etc. which is basically what you want when you speculate about trades.
Wish it was 24 hours from now so we could know what the hell the final deal is. Ruben has done it right so far. I hope he doesn’t follow the white whale down the tubes…
by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Dec 14, 2009 8:49 PM EST reply actions
I find this impossible, quite frankly. Stark says the Phils refused to part with Drabek in one-on-one talks with Toronto, so why in God’s name would they now include him when they’re already dealing away the most valuable piece in the trade? It just doesn’t pass the smell test.
yeah how’d that go?
last summer
Toronto: We really want Drabek…
Ruben: No way no how… click
early today
Toronto: We really want Drabek…
Ruben: Nope sorry…
an hour ago
Toronto: Come on… we really want Drabek….
Ruben: Not happening…
20 min ago
Toronto: Drabek… Come on… Please…
Ruben: Well… Since you asked nicely!
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
depending on the “prospects” i’m good with this…
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
once again, the devil’s in the details… specifically, who “1 other Phillies prospect” is. Vance Worley, OK. Domonic Brown, eat shit and die.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Vance Worley, OK. Domonic Brown, eat shit and die.
Is that Chaucer?
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
by foos05 on Dec 14, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I’d be fine dealing a Worley, Stutes, Cisco, J. Sanchez kind of prospect along with D’Arnaud, but that’s only if our development guys are super pumped about Valle. Because Travis can flat out ball, and he shouldn’t be thought of as a throw in with Taylor or Brown.
by Michael Levin on Dec 14, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
According to the Associated press on TSN (Canadas ESPN) Blanton and Happ took physicals today too…dont know who for but i like that better
lol to this
RHP Phillippe Aumont is in the Halladay deal — but not coming to the Jays. He’s going to the Phillies
so we send Drabek to the Jays for Aumont…
surely you kid?
Every rumor gets worse and worse for the phillies…like PhillyFriar said above, this isn’t passing the smell test.
In the summer, Rube wouldn’t bite on Drabek, Happ, and Brown for Halladay.
But now Lee, Drabek, D’Arnaud and Taylor for Halladay and some ex-1st rounder that can’t hit the strike zone? Doesn’t seem right, or logical.
If that’s what it takes for Halladay, I’d rather have a year of Lee @ 9 million and two 2011 draft picks
Aumont only has 0.3 more career BB/9 than Drabek. He also has more K/9 than Drabek. The only thing I see in the numbers that favor Drabek over Aumont is that he is one year older and was more successful in AA. You can’t disregard Aumont and praise Drabek at the same time. The only difference is Drabek is a step closer to the majors.
Also, you’re jumping to conclusions. There has been no evidence that Taylor (or Brown) are part of the deal. There’s also reportedly one more Mariner prospect coming to Philly. How about you save your anger until the deal is finalized and we have the complete picture?
from jayson stark on TGP front
[9:15 PM UPDATE from Jayson Stark on ESPNews]:
His understanding of the deal:
Phillies send Lee, Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor and Travis D’Arnaud; get Roy Halladay and Phillippe Aumont. Yuck.
Time to repost “Is it time to trust the Phillies?” I’m going to be sick.
by Boundforbeach on Dec 14, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
I bet a lot of guys are just getting physicals etc. so they can be on the table. That kind of makes sense, if the M’s, Jays and Phils are all interested in like 20 or so guys, just have them all get physicals etc. so that a deal can get hammered out with whichever 5-8 guys and there is no delay etc.
also
people are pointing at the Phillies #4 farm system as proof we can do this deal.
That ranking includes Drabek, Brown, and Taylor. They are all three top 25 prospects in all of baseball, and all three are close to major-league ready. Beyond those three guys, all of whom are pretty much guarantees to make it to the show, you have two high-ceiling guys in D’Arnaud and May who could be all-stars and may never get past AA.
Beyond those two, you have a whole lot of question marks. Make no mistake, if the Phillies put two of the top three in the deal PLUS D’Arnaud they have absolutely gutted their farm system and their chances to win past 2011 or 2012.
by Governator on Dec 14, 2009 9:42 PM EST reply actions 11 recs
Rec’d, and I encourage others to do the same.
by PhillyFriar on Dec 14, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
Theres no way we give up 2 of the big 3. We wouldnt give up 2 of them this past summer when it would have been 1.5 years of Halladay, and now wed be giving up Lee too. This doesnt add up, theres no way thats the trade.
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, they probably made the whole thing up. Halladay probably signed an extension with Toranto for all these people know.
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
somehow, by midnight, we will hear an offer involving Ken Griffey Jr, Kevin Kolb, Thaddeus Young, and relocation of the Philadelphia Union to Toronto
count on it
by alcatraz0109 on Dec 14, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
Rosenthal
This from Rosenthal (updated 9:24pm)
An agreement is now in place to send Roy Halladay to the Phillies, Cliff Lee to the Mariners, and prospects to the Blue Jays, major-league sources confirmed to FOXSports.com.
The sources said Phillipe Aumont — a Canadian right-hander — is among the players headed from Seattle to Toronto in the deal; the source added the Philadelphia is expected to send one of its outfield prospects, possibly Michael Taylor, to the Blue Jays.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/10523430/Sources:-Phillies-get-Halladay,-send-Lee-to-Seattle
Zolecki twitter (3 minutes ago)
Sources say only Phillies would receive Seattle prospects for Lee. None would be shipped to Toronto. Kyle Drabek is involved.
As has been stated before, the Phillies arent just going to do a 180 on Drabek
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Unless they originally thought Lee would resign and now that they think there’s no shot of that ever happening, they felt they had to go for Halladay. If the Jays are stuck in Drabek, that might be what’s holding this all up.
Yeah, but now were also giving up Lee. Lee + Drabek = Halladay, when Drabek + whoever else the Jays wanted didnt equal Halladay in the summer? That makes no sense, even with Lee not resigning.
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
I realize this, but you can’t get players in trade for free. The Phillies/Amaro seem to be operating under a finite budget; hence, they cannot afford to keep Lee and/or Blanton and acquire Halladay. I’d rather move Blanton, but he’s not going to net you much in trade. The Phils still need bullpen pieces even after this trade if it occurs.
I don’t want the Phils to get raped here, either, but I also understand that baseball is a business.
Drabek is cost controlled and somewhat close to the majors, no?
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but it’s that whole “he’s a prospect” thing. He’s an awesome prospect, yes, but no sure thing. TINSTAPP and all that. With the Phillies record of drafting and developing pitchers, how much faith do you have that he’ll be awesome?
Also, with all the conflicting reports that have come out today, I’m not sure what we can believe anymore. I will say this: if we give up Drabek and Lee, there had better be no other prospects given up by Philadelphia. None.
Do they have a nemoic for 33 year old pitchers that log over 220 innings every single year?
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
If this amounts to the Phils getting the M’s farm to exchange Lee for Halladay, that is not so bad.
Of course, it depends on the quality of prospects the M’s give to Phils, and the Phils then give to Blue Jays.
If the Phils give Taylor, Drabek and D’arnaud to Jays, recievce halladay
Give Lee to M’s, and recieve _ __ ____ (1,2,3 prospects from M’s)
Then it really should be seen as 2 separate deals, and it is not all that bad.
But it IS that bad, because no one the M’s could give us would be anywhere near as good a prospect as Drabek, Brown, and Taylor are.
by PhillyFriar on Dec 14, 2009 10:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That is perhaps true (seriously, I dont know anything about M’s farm system) but it would also be Phils selling high on their prospects.
I dont really like that deal either, but if it is say Taylor, D’arnaud and AA pitcher (not Drabek obviously) to Jays, receive Halladay
then Lee to M’s, receive 3 good prospects, that is not so bad at all.
It is a little awkward though. My prefered deal is to keep Lee, and trade maybe Happ and Taylor to the Jays, and then you can always get draft picks from either Halladay or Lee if they dont sign or try and sign them.
Maybe I am selling Happ a bit short in this scenario, though.
I wonder if it is really worth anything to be able to sign Halladay to a 3 year 45 million extension (which is what I think I saw in the rumors).
the bottom line is
that if we want to continue our winning ways, we will have to put out some more money for the team to spend so we can keep some of our players. We need to show that we are willing to put a team out there that will win the world series after we one it once, and came back again this year.
But I also do not want to trade any of our top prospects. That means no Taylor, Drabek, Brown, or even Happ. Lee should be enough for the M’s to trade their prospects to Toronto. I hope this deal does not go through at this point. What a mess!
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How good is this Phillippe Aumont? Top 25 prospect material? Or is he just a project?
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:22 PM EST reply actions
So Drabeks a lot better than he is. The way I see it right now, any deal involving Drabek is a bad deal, regardless of who the Ms give us.
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
So, since its looking like this is 2 seporate deals, is Aumont better than the Knapp, Donald, Marson, and Corrasco package we gave for Lee originally?
(Do I really want to know the answer?)
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
Coulda just answered my second question…
Seems to me that Knapp >= Aumont by himself
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yup, I’d say even that’s fair. Knapp’s further away than Aumont, but he’s still got a good shot to stick as a starter, whereas Aumont doesn’t. And even as a reliever, Knapp is probably a tick better once he’s done developing.
by PhillyFriar on Dec 14, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
*pulling down my pants to get raped in the ass*
I almost want Ed Wade
"A picture may be worth a thousand words, but a word from Harry Kalas painted a thousand pictures."
-Doug Glanville
That seems like way too much to lose
for Holiday as many of you state! Anyway, I am not thrilled. But, time will tell.
Holy testicle tuesday, I was so close to buying a Lee Jersey this weekend. Thank god I didn’t.
I seriously don’t want this to go through unless Halladay is willing to extend at a reasonable price.
Scar tissue is stronger than muscle tissue. Realize the strength, move on.
That’s the point of this whole deal, no?
Otherwise we’re just paying 6 million more for one walk year of a cy young winner.
I just don’t see how Halladay can cost more than Lee and a medium (Anthony Gose) prospect
July 2009: Ruben Amaro >>> J.P. Ricciardi
December 2009: Alex Anthopoulos >>> Ruben Amaro
by PhillyFriar on Dec 14, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
This is true and I do agree with you, I doubt Ruben would throw Lee away for a slightly better one year rental.
Also in retrospect I feel that Halladay is superior to Lee, not to mention we need more righties in the rotation.
Scar tissue is stronger than muscle tissue. Realize the strength, move on.
this is turning disastrous quickly
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
Quick, someone call in a bomb threat to CBP so we can delay this thing a little while.
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:46 PM EST reply actions
Per Fox Sports, hopefully correct!!
Updated: December 14, 2009, 9:24 PM EST 423 comments
An agreement is now in place to send Roy Halladay to the Phillies, Cliff Lee to the Mariners, and prospects to the Blue Jays, major-league sources confirmed to FOXSports.com.
Sound familiar?If Monday’s Roy Halladay/Cliff Lee deal sounds familiar, that’s because it should. Ken Rosenthal laid it all out for you on Saturday … two days before the deal!
The sources said Phillipe Aumont — a Canadian right-hander — is among the players headed from Seattle to Toronto in the deal; the source added the Philadelphia is expected to send one of its outfield prospects, possibly Michael Taylor, to the Blue Jays
that better be it
If its not then this trade is pointless. Jays don’t hold the cards in this trade we do, deal with it, the old GM f’ed you all over on his value.
From MLBTR
9:46pm: One Mariner prospect headed to Philly would be 21-year-old outfielder Tyson Gilles, writes Stark in his latest update..
9:25pm: As the deal stands now, M’s prospects would only be going to Philadelphia, not Toronto, sources tell Todd Zolecki of MLB.com (via Twitter).
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
someone tell me about Tyson Gilles please
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
He’s toolsy — hey, taco pal! — and turned heads in the California League this year with him game breaking speed. A slap hitter with little power, but plays a decent center field and could profile as a leadoff type if everything falls right. But if he has to move to a corner, or if he can’t continue to make a ton of contact, then he’s a 4th outfielder.
Bottom line: he’s a more advanced version of Anthony Gose, but without quite the physical ability.
by PhillyFriar on Dec 14, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
Huh, coulda sworn we have a guy like that playing center field already…
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
yeahhhhhh.
lol I’m lost. So wait, this trade was economical and it worked the short and long term. And now we decided to not only screw us over short term, but also long term. RAJr, what are you thinking?
"They say that nobody is perfect. Then they tell you practice makes perfect. I wish they'd make up their minds." - Wilt Chamberlain
As of 9:15, Jayson Stark says (if still relevant?):
9:15pm: After going through several incarnations over the last 48 hours, the latest version of the deal has outfielder Michael Taylor, catching prospect Travis D’Arnaud, and a pitcher – either J.A. Happ or Kyle Drabek – going to Toronto, writes Stark in his latest update.
So – if the phillies ‘25 man roster’ ostensibly swaps Hallady for Lee – I’m not sure how they’re that much better next year Mr Stark, include Happ in the deal and you got to find another starter.
by jemagee on Dec 14, 2009 11:06 PM EST reply actions
It seems that the rumors are all over the place
so I guess we will have to wait till tommorrow. I agree, believe it or not, with jemagee that are we really any better than last year if we do this trade. Maybe the 2 following years, maybe? I agree with most of you I think I would pass (for now atleast).
10:12pm: Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun (via Twitter) has Toronto getting Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, and Travis D’Arnaud; Philly getting Roy Halladay and Philippe Aumont; and the Mariners getting Cliff Lee, plus another piece (or, pieces).
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
sniff*sniff I smell a load
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2009 11:20 PM EST reply actions
how the hell do the phillies end up getting raped in this deal?
it just cant be true. ruben’s supposed to be a genius
by IndianEagle on Dec 15, 2009 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
This makes absolutely no sense
This makes absolutely no sense to be giving up more to get Halladay now, when he wants to come here and has given his team a deadline, vs. 5 months ago.
by Screen Name 20 on Dec 15, 2009 8:03 AM EST up reply actions
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