Would You Pay $2 to Have Lee AND Halladay Pitching for the 2010 Phillies?

by David S. Cohen on Dec 15, 2009 11:17 PM EST Comment 50 comments

If the reports are correct (and I'm still in the camp that says that we really can't trust anything until the deals are finally announced), the Phillies are selling off Cliff Lee for 2010 because, with Roy Halladay in the fold, they're going to be over their $140M budget.

So, the Phillies would rather a) avoid paying Lee in 2010 and get three of the Mariners prospects than b) pay Lee in 2010 and let him go in free agency while getting two compensation draft picks. The Mariners prospects are slightly more valuable than two compensation picks, but only slightly. But, for this exercise, let's say it's a wash.

This part of the deal then is really just about money. Cliff Lee is under contract for 2010 for $9 million. The Phillies last year had a total home attendance of just over 3,600,000. Add in the 8 home playoff games, and we're just under 4,000,000 fans watching baseball games at Citizens Bank Park.

The math here is very easy. If the Phillies charged $2 extra per ticket in 2010, they'd make up almost all of Cliff Lee's contract. And that's without figuring in an attendance bump (albeit slight considering the number of sell-outs last year) or other ways the Phillies could capitalize on a rotation of Halladay/Lee/Hamels/Happ/Blanton (makes you salivate, doesn't it?).

So, here's my question to you: would you, as a paying customer of the Philadelphia Phillies, be willing to fork over $2 extra per ticket next year to keep Lee on the team along with newly acquired Halladay?

The poll is below, but I'm betting I know the answer to this one. And if the math here is this simple and obvious, then why the hell is Ruben Amaro so hell-bent on getting rid of Cliff Lee?

[Edited Wednesday morning with Cliff Lee's correct 2010 contract value. His base is $8M but he has a $1M bump this year. My point still stands.]

Poll

Would you pay $2 extra per ticket in 2010 to see Cliff Lee in the rotation along with newly-acquired Roy Halladay?

Hell yeah

1338 votes

No way - not worth it

171 votes

1509 votes | Poll has closed

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Comments

hmmm, fans pay $2 more per ticket or ownership (who is already filthy freaking rich) ponies up the extra dough to put out the best possible product. THAT seems easy to me.

by FuquaManuel on Dec 15, 2009 11:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed, but I’m looking at it from their perspective. They’ve set their budget at $140M and want to stick to it. They could have reasons for it, and I’ll give that to them. Here’s a simple way to make this move budget neutral for them, one I’m sure fans would be more than willing to support.

But, like I said, I agree with you in principle.

by David S. Cohen on Dec 15, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I dig it.

Still, they already got us to pay for their stadium and their parade (when the city was in the process of going bankrupt)…and a million other things. I wouldn’t give them the comfort of knowing they can just keep dumping the costs of their business on us. Not to mention that they would be the ones getting rich off of the revenues that having that rotation and likely making another deep playoff run would generate. So unless they are willing to contribute whatever share of the team’s revenues that Lee generates to the city’s tax base, let him walk if they are gonna make us pay for him.

by FuquaManuel on Dec 15, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

They’re actually a relatively fan-friendly ownership group though, all things considered. Our ticket prices are lower than they are in a lot of comparable cities.

by taco pal on Dec 15, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It’s true, their ticket prices have the second smallest margin between most expensive and cheapest ($44). Their cheapest seat, however, at $16 is tied for the most expensive “cheapest available” ticket in all of baseball. If that makes sense.

Also, I wasn’t trying to suggest that the ownership isn’t fan-friendly, but rather that they already dump a bunch of the costs of the franchise on us…specifically the stadium.

by FuquaManuel on Dec 15, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Again, agreed on principle. But this isn’t an ordinary business they’re running. This is a business that the fans not only enjoy watching, but rely on for entertainment and identity. We are invested in seeing this team win. When it wins, and especially when it wins to get to or succeed in the playoffs, we have memories that last a lifetime. That’s different than most businesses.

And for that, I’d happily pay $2 extra per ticket, even if in theory I think the mega-millionaires who own the franchise should be the ones paying the extra money.

by David S. Cohen on Dec 15, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wish this question was asked well before the trade.

by Phils 2036 World CH on Dec 16, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would, but honestly, the part of the transaction that upsets me more is the Halladay part, not the Lee part. We’re giving up too much for Halladay and getting back too little for Lee, but I think “too much” is by a greater margin than the “too little.”

by taco pal on Dec 15, 2009 11:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yeesh, what a garbled sentence. That should have ended with “…but I think the ‘too much’ is greater than the ‘too little.’”

by taco pal on Dec 15, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The delta between the too much is greater than the delta between the too little?

I like science terms haha

by Clyde Simmons on Dec 16, 2009 7:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok

First off if it is Really only 2 million then, that is nothing, we would have the best rotation in MLB if Hamels returns to 2008 form. Money should not be a worry, it is a chance to make history.

If somehow the money is so tight that this 2 million will benefit the resignings of Werth and Howard then, in the near future of 2010 we will look back on this, and thank Ruben for having saved the money

Although the money he spent on more useless guys like Troy Glaus, we could have saved and let minor league contract guys step in.

If its only over 2 million dollars, then the boost in ticket sales should be gladly embraced for a Very strong chance to make this a dynasty and have the best rotation in baseball.

by MalibuLSV23 on Dec 15, 2009 11:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

It’s $8M, or $2 (not $2,000,000) per ticket.

by David S. Cohen on Dec 15, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Change 2 with 8 million

by MalibuLSV23 on Dec 16, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I feel like this is over-simplifying on some aspect, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. In that cost for a baseball team deals with stadium staff, team staff, ticket takers, etc, etc, does this make the increase not so simplistic? That is to say, because we can’t isolate the cost of doing baseball business to the simple, released team salary, is the 8 million dollar bump a naive measurement of what’s keeping Lee away for the year?

I’m not sure, either way…just a thought.

by Trev223 on Dec 16, 2009 12:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I swore Cliff Lee got $9 mil this year

due to the Cy Young escalator clause in his contract. Is this not the case?

And if it is the case, how does that change the math (that I don’t feel like doing since it’s late and I’m sick)?

by Aphilfan on Dec 16, 2009 12:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

N/M on the math bit

Under your terms, it’s an extra quarter.

by Aphilfan on Dec 16, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

“I talked to a buddy of Cliff’s today,” said one baseball man. “And he said, ‘This is just going to tick him off even more. He really liked it in Philly. He’ll be on a crusade now.’”

Just saw that on ESPN.com. Makes me sad about losing the guy. He really fit well here.
I like Rube and I think he’s a savvy guy…I just hope he knows what he’s doing.

by joetimek on Dec 16, 2009 2:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Well I find that quote nonsensical from a ‘motivational’ point of view, I find it interesting that if he ‘really liked it in Philly’, maybe he should have changed his negotiating stance on his extension, cause that’s why he’s leaving.

by jemagee on Dec 16, 2009 9:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

well, FWIW, Lee’s agent denied that negotiations took place or that the team was ever told that he was insistent on testing free agency:

Braunecker said he had talks with the Phillies last week at the Winter Meetings about a contract extension.

“It’s been very preliminary dialogue,” Braunecker said. “I wouldn’t characterize our discussions at this point as negotiations. But I think it’s inaccurate to say whatever dialogue we’ve had to this point as being anything other than positive and constructive.”

“We had taken a position at the end of Spring Training with the Indians that Cliff was going to play out the remainder of his contract and enter the free-agent market,” Braunecker said. “We’ve never had any of those conversations with the Phillies of any sort. That was exclusive to the situation with Cleveland.”

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091214&content_id=7808166&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

by Boundforbeach on Dec 16, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

For my money, the trade is disappointing enough without wondering about the various communication failures that may or may not have happened. I would guess that what Cliff’s agent is saying is probably close to the truth, but navigating the mess of potential intonations is depressing. I’m doing my best (and failing) to take the human element out of this as much as possible.

by Trev223 on Dec 16, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agents lie all the time when they mess up. I trust Lee really liked it here, but we have no way of knowing whether or not what the agent is saying is true. When Lee told the Indians he wouldn’t sign an extension, he said it was all business. He needs to understand that’s all that this was, too.

by doubleh on Dec 16, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNEj2cMPTvQ

by FuquaManuel on Dec 16, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I"m sure lee ‘liked’ it here but I doubt it would have as much impact if a team offered Lee a 6 year deal in FA versus the ‘3 years’ that seems to be the Philadelphia Philosophy (and not for nothing, if the phillies don’t like long term deals to pitchers, what does it mean about the future of Cole Hamels?)

by jemagee on Dec 16, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Poll is not accurate

Your poll can’t really be considered relaiable. For instance, I did say “Hell yes” to the extra $2. But in reality, I live in China and have not lived near Philly for some years, and I am NOT willing to pay for a plane ticket, hotel room, etc. plus the ticket price to watch a game. You should have FIRST asked if we had purchased tikets in the last year, and how many. Even then, what about the 299+ million who didn’t answer your poll?

by Fillyfaninforeignland on Dec 16, 2009 6:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

dude, chill. This is satirical, not scientific. We’re all pissed about what happened. Don’t take it out on these guys.

by Boundforbeach on Dec 16, 2009 7:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think the Fillyfan’s comment was also satirical. Deadpan can be difficult to detect on the internets.

by taco pal on Dec 16, 2009 9:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Right. Wouldn’t be the first time I’ve had to recalibrate the sarcasm meter.

by Boundforbeach on Dec 16, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hi, Fillyfaninforeignland! I also have lived in China for several years. It's good to see there are least two Phillies fans in the Middle Kingdom.

by Derekcarstairs on Dec 16, 2009 7:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Is it really Ruben that’s obsessed with getting rid of Lee, or was it ownership obsessed with getting rid of 9 million.

I mean we heard Blanton rumors and all of this before. It wasn’t until end of last week that Rosenthal reported Lee might be included in a deal. That makes it sound like we couldn’t unload Blanton. Nobody wants Moyer’s 8 mil salary.

It doesn’t sound like RAJ is obsessed with getting rid of Lee. It’s business. If rumors are to be believed he tried other options to no success.

by hangthadj on Dec 16, 2009 7:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I should have said hell-bent, not obsessed since that is the language in the original post.

by hangthadj on Dec 16, 2009 7:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Could be that Benny Looper just really loves those prospects and has convinced Ruben it’s a fair deal.

by taco pal on Dec 16, 2009 9:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What’s done is done. No going back. Ownership held firm to their budget, and Ruben just had to have his man. This is, I guess, the consequence of that. I should be excited about the team being the favorite for the 2010 pennant and having Halladay in red and white. But I’m not. Maybe I’m too attached to Lee (who by all accounts is upset and distraught). Maybe it’s the feeling that we may have jeopardized our future, or simply that Ruben got fleeced and maybe is in over his head. Just not sure. Hopefully this will pass.

by Boundforbeach on Dec 16, 2009 7:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I'm pretty sure they did (or are going to) raise prices for most sections this year

Either way, your point still stands. Even with the $2 ticket price increase Phils would probably do just as well in attendance (if not better), meaning more concession $‘s. Also, nothing is guaranteed obviously, most likely be a shoe-in for the WS meaning more merchandise $’s.

by Screen Name 20 on Dec 16, 2009 8:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I would pay it!

But in the 2011 season they had better lower the price of beer, seriously. I prefer to get loaded during the game, there’s no way I can make the walk to the park from tail gating trashed. I would fall down and my friends would leave me behind.

Scar tissue is stronger than muscle tissue. Realize the strength, move on.

by JCB79 on Dec 16, 2009 8:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

what you aren’t considering is the ‘future’ of Cliff Lee’s contract. If they keep him for one year, they do get his services at a reasonable price but at the end of the year, he’s gone, and the Phils have nothing to show for his signing. As it is now, they’ll get a few prospects back for the future, to help re-invigorate the farm system.

Keep Lee? Trade becomes Knapp, Donald, Carrasco, Marson for 1.3 years of Lee and 4 yrs of Ben Francisco.
Trade Lee? Trade becomes Knapp, Donald, Carrasco, Marson, for 0.3 yrs of Lee, 4 years of BF and 3 prospects (whose names escape me right now).

Neither option includes an extended period of control of Cliff Lee, and the later you wait, the less return you’d get on him, if things started to fall apart (which is possible).

by Bilzo on Dec 16, 2009 8:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Except losing him means we get two compensation picks, which are very valuable.

by David S. Cohen on Dec 16, 2009 9:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Stupid

Or we could have just not extended Jamie Moyer. Why did we do that again?

by ajay on Dec 16, 2009 9:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

becuase Ruben wanted him back and was scared Moyer would score big if they tendered arbitration…

by Boundforbeach on Dec 16, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Is there a new ‘seniors tour’ for MLB that we don’t know about?

by jemagee on Dec 16, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

score big, probably only would have gotten the 8 mil if that.. too me age factors into that

by Ant on Dec 16, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously

What are his comparable contracts at that age? We were probably the only real contender for his services and blew it big time on that contract.

by Screen Name 20 on Dec 16, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Let the rich pay for it...

Make the more expesive seats pay 3 while the cheaper seats pay 1. Socialize our ticket cost increases.

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Dec 16, 2009 9:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

[spin doctor economist] It’s not really socializing. It’s simple recognition that the Phillies have the narrowest gap between the cheap seats and the expensive seats. There’s insufficient cachet for the hoi polloi, and such an increase will add to the conspicuous consumption factor, actually increasing the value of the seats as the price rises. [/spin doctor]

"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"

by The Dark on Dec 16, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We could also put coin jars by the cash registers at all the local Wawas, with big pictures of Lee and/or Halladay on them. With a little publicity, we could easily get at least a couple million by the end of the season.

by taco pal on Dec 16, 2009 9:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

This has success written all over it! Screw kids who need clothes and food, we want our Phillies to win dammit!

Scar tissue is stronger than muscle tissue. Realize the strength, move on.

by JCB79 on Dec 16, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I know this comparison doesn’t really correlate because of the NBA salary cap, but It would be nice to have a Celtics-like team. Go for broke & keep Lee. What are Aumont, Gillies & Ramirez going to do for this franchise in the next year or two? probably bounce back n forth between minor league teams in the system. So Keep Lee for 1 year & pay him his $9mil & get 2 first round picks if you loose him to free agency after the season is over. Just imagine the rotation:
Roy Halladay
Cliff Lee
Joe Blanton
Cole Hamels
J. Happ

by DannyO on Dec 16, 2009 10:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

http://backporch.fanhouse.com/2009/12/15/the-dugout-baseball-stars/

I know this isn’t quite on topic, but this seems to be the new active thread for the discussion/irritation. Today’s dugout, at least the last four or five lines, really nicely expresses the whole situation Cliff Lee saying “The Phillies have no idea what to do with me” was just about the truest and most depressing read of the trade I’ve seen yet.

by Trev223 on Dec 16, 2009 10:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

yeah i'd pay it!

we’re talking about a world series ace here! he was a stud against the yankees and that was without his team hitting! need to keep this guy in the rotation!

www.WorldF-ingChampions.com

by sixrfan on Dec 16, 2009 11:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Those M's prospects are solid, high-upside prospects.

They’re not elite prospects, but each of them is worth considerably more than a draft pick (excepting top 3 picks).

I’m going to miss Aumont.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Dec 16, 2009 2:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

There have been many differing opinons, i’ve seen nothing on the third guy (martinez?) he seems to be a new name as of today…but a few things seem certain

A. They aren’t close to the quality of what the phils gave up to get Halladay
B. They are less ‘sure’ than what the phils gave up to get Halladay
C. The phillies probably should have held open bidding for Lee because a team like the angels might have offered more

by jemagee on Dec 16, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs