And it's official... Roy Halladay joins the Phillies.
by WholeCamels on Dec 16, 2009 6:10 PM EST
104 comments
The deal is done, the press conference complete, and superstar right-handed pitcher Roy Halladay is officially a member of the Philadelphia Phillies.
The price, as has been discussed and will likely be debated for generations, was substantial -- Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, and Travis D'Arnaud plus, let's be honest here, the prerequisite dumping of Cliff Lee -- but Ruben Amaro, Jr. got his man.
Excised from all the baggage associated with the seemingly endless courtship and acquisition, the Phillies did manage to get one of the best, most durable pitchers in baseball, with a pronounced ability to induce groundballs, who wants to be in Philadelphia and, perhaps most importantly, the willingness to negotiate a below-market contract extension. Think they could have gotten Halladay for 3 years/$60MM with the Yankees and Red Sox in a bidding war?
So, congratulations Phillies and Roy Halladay. I sincerely hope that any lingering bitterness about some of the more peculiar aspects of this particular series of transactions don't translate into disdain from the fanbase for Mr. Halladay himself. He's one of the best.
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Halladay is a great pitcher
But I’ll miss Lee for sure. I guess I’m too loyal for pro sports.
"I'm colonel cool! And I'm the captain on this rocket to the stars!"
I’m loyal to the team, not the players, players come and go, the team remains constant.
Besides, as I’m told, Lee was only here for a couple months so who cares about being loyal to him?
by jemagee on Dec 16, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
so that's the catch
The picture makes it clear – we’ve been duped: the Phils have just signed SNL star Jason Sudeikis to a three-year extension.
"I am the Walrus?..... I am the Walrus." - Donny Kerabatsos
In all seriousness
It’s got to be Halladay or Lincecum as odds on favorites to win the NL Cy Young next year right?
Philly phans should be pumped up right now
You just got yourself the best pitcher in baseball.
This guy averaged 20 wins on a crappy blue jays team in the AL EAST.
Now this guy is going to the NL and is going to make Lincecum and any other NL pitcher look like chumps.
If Philly can do something about that bullpen, 25 wins and CY Young. You heard it here first.
I don’t get why everybody is freakin’ out. Cliff Lee ain’t got squat to Halladay! Cliff had one good year 2 years ago and 10 great games last year. Halladay’s been doing this at that level for the last decade.
You guys should be pumped in my opinion. I am cause he’s gonna make me a lot of $$$ this year with the Phils.
We don't need to do that.
There’s no need to denigrate Lee to build up Halladay. Halladay’s record speaks for itself and we don’t need to belittle Cliff Lee after what he did here.
by JasonB on Dec 16, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Roy will find out we will love him more than any pickup we’ve had in the last 10 years, not only because he’s a great pitcher, but because HE CHOSE US. Lee was great last year, but was aquired without his approval. Roy wants to be here and he wants to win another championship for our city. Happy Halladays!
Chase Utley is so good that on one pitch he stole second, third and the shortstop's hat.
I’m all about being positive, but really, there are limits in addition to a $140MM payroll.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 16, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just saying
I read around this blog and it sounds like if everybody’s talking like if this move was a step down?
You just got yourself the best pitcher in all of baseball and it feels like you just lost a pitcher to the yankees around here
well, at this blog, we like to evaluate how moves impact our future, not just the present. is gaining maybe one or two wins more next season worth the erosion of talent that occured in the farm system? alot of us don’t think so
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
1 or 2 more wins next season?
I’m not much of a “WAR OPS ROPSTST wOBSRT” stats guy but,
But to me, this is more like 10 more wins for not just next season, but the next 4 years (at least)
Plus, you guys still have your best farm player in Brown right?
I don’t get it. You gotta pay to win in this game, you can’t always get “steals” like you did last year in getting Lee.
Rejoice all!!! You got the best player at the most important posititon in baseball.
Now go get that bullpen, get Roy to rub off on Hamels like he did with Burnett, and it’s a cakewalk to the WS for the Phillies
But to me, this is more like 10 more wins for not just next season, but the next 4 years (at least)
I’d like to see you explain this…
You got the best player at the most important posititon in baseball.
I would hardly say that a player that can only take part in around 32 games a year carries that bearing.
Plus, you guys still have your best farm player in Brown right?
Too bad we lost our 2, 3, and 4, guys. And if you want to take into account the Lee trade from last year, 7 of our top 10. So woo hoo, we still have Brown, but other than that, we got hurt pretty badily with this one.
I don’t get it. You gotta pay to win in this game, you can’t always get "steals" like you did last year in getting Lee.
See, the trick is to have cost controlled talent that you develop and have ready to step in when players a) become too expensive b) retire or c) aren’t productive. This trade severly hampered our next series of players that fit that role.
I’m going to stop now because this is pointless…
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
I’m not much of a "WAR OPS ROPSTST wOBSRT" stats guy but,
Haha, I know I’m just piling on, but was this actually said? I feel like I’m in an FJM post.
I’ll pretend this dovetails nicely, because it’s regarding Richard Griffin, one of the Blue Jays beat writers. From a good ol’ fashioned, FJM’ing…
Major League Baseball is not Fantasy Baseball where every ERA, WHIP, VORP or DORK stands on its own.
Dork is a slang term that means “dick,” which is a slang term that means “penis.”
Major League Baseball: Where no penis stands alone.®
(Slogan courtesy of Richard Griffin.)
by PhillyFriar on Dec 17, 2009 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
you really should photo shop a Jays hat on the whale and ruben in an inflatable boat throwing a spear at it
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
FROM HELL’S HEART I STAB AT THEEEEEEEE
glub glub
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 16, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
There are a lot of ways to look at this thing, and I’m sure we’ll get to them all (or have already). But I’m honestly thrilled to have this guy as my teams ace for the next 4-6 years.
by dajafi on Dec 16, 2009 7:25 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Not that Hamels isn't great already
I’m hopeful that this motivates him to become even greater. A Halladay-Hamels (ca. 2008) 1-2 punch could be the best in baseball, and lethal in the playoffs.
Did Mariners finally get a hold of Lee?
Radio on my ride home was stating the Mariners cannot get a hold of Lee to work a press conference to announce his arrival.
Roy is a TALL man, can’t wait to get that jersey.
Having him I feel will allow for about 5 more wins, not victories for him per se, but the team.
so this gives Halladay 12 wins for the Phillies?
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 16, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
Well, to be fair I’m kidding here. Lee was only with us for a few months. It is tantalizing to have a 20-game winner in the fold. Whether it was Lee or Halladay, assuming a return to form with Hamels by rights we should be taking a fair amount of pressure off of the bullpen. But let’s please remember that one fifth of our starts are still a huge question mark. As of two weeks ago, our $8MM, 47-year old 5th starter was getting out of the hospital after a post-surgical infection resulted in a second hospitalization. Even I’m considering resigning Myers. (shudder) Like right now.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 16, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
You must have missed last year's playoff
and regular season then
We did not really give up anyone to get Lee, now we trade him for no-one
Kinda evens
If you're gonna compare stats, you should probably factor "pitching in the AL East" stat
2.79 ERA and nine complete games in the AL East!
What would that equal in the NL East with the “statistical truths?”
You guys are set for the next 4 years. Enjoy the ride instead of worrying about having given up “potential” stars.
The future is now. Enjoy.
Is the roy rogers chain still functional on the east coast – he could be their spokesperson
by jemagee on Dec 16, 2009 8:02 PM EST reply actions
I’m pretty sure there are still a few rest-stops along the Jersey Turnpike that feature Roy Rogers. Their curly fries are excellent.
When i was a kid i loved their roast beef sandwich
by jemagee on Dec 16, 2009 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
Man what I wouldn’t give for a roy rogers sandwich with tose awsome chicken nuggets way better than Mcd’s
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Dec 16, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
I think they didn’t want all those leftys again. It did hurt against the Yanks they knew it was Lee, Hamels, than Pedro and Blanton that just wasn’t enough. Hope Hammels gets it back or we will still be where we are. Besides it looks like the phils want to win next year then just buy players from now on like the Yanks and Sox. I never thought I would say this "we are the yankees of the NL’’ can’t believe we took that from the muts. If this blows in our faces heads will roll.
But having Halladay from the jump seems like a good feeling. Maybe we will get him to start 3 or 4 of those nasty AL games and he just mops them up so we don’t fall into that slump this year.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
oops ment next year still 2 weeks away
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Dec 16, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
The Phillies are better today than they were yesterday.
Every move that Ruben has made this off-season has resulted in an improvement of the big league roster. The 2010 opening day roster will be much better than the 2009 opening day roster.
We will love Halladay. At the end of his four-year deal, we will be calling him a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer.
Ruben still has work to do with the back-end of our rotation and the bullpen. If he does a decent job eliminating these weaknesses, the Phils will be on their way to a third straight NL pennant.
I remain a big fan of Cole Hamels. Had he pitched to his usual form in the World Series in 2009 and had Lidge been a solid (not perfect) closer, JRoll’s prediction of a 5-game win would have been accurate. Hamels was not a one-year wonder in 2008. He has been great, when healthy, every year since Little League. 2009 was an aberration.
I expect Hamels to revert to form in 2010. If this happens, we have an excellent shot at becoming the World Bleeping Champions once again. I like our chances with Halladay matching up against Sabathia (or Beckett, King Felix, etc.) in Games 1, 4 and 7.
I am happy with Ruben’s work at the major-league level. With the Halladay trade, though, he has some work to do to re-build the minor-league system at the higher levels.
sorry, more careful reading -you said every move this off-season. 2010—you could make a case. Ross Gload ca. 2011 says hi.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 16, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
I have just GOT to stop using double dashes posting on this board.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 16, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
espn
everyone should just read jayson stark’s article on ESPN. it sums everything up perfectly and explains all of the rationale and why the decision makes sense.
btw, stark is the best phillies writer(/fan) in our lifetimes. also, if you haven’t read his book “worth the wait” yet, then i wouldn’t even consider you a fan.
I looked at “Worth the Wait” in a bookstore once. It seemed to be made up of all the columns he wrote during the ‘08 postseason. If that’s the case I suppose I’ve already read it. Stark’s not bad, but I wouldn’t say he’s my favorite sportswriter either. He gets a little too melodramatic and florid with his prose sometimes.
"You grip it like this, and then throw the s**t out of it."
-Steve Carlton, on his slider
by ThinMountainAir on Dec 16, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
I actually think this is a pretty good trade, mostly because I think the guys we got from the M’s are somewhat underrated and the guys we gave up are a bit overrated. Maybe not even overrated, but for Taylor for instance, he didnt have a spot next year but was basically ready to go.
Also, I heard there is an automatic option if Halladay pitches enough innings for a 4th year and then a team option for a 5th year. Is this true? Those two years add a pretty decent amount of value to the Halladay contract.
If nothing else, some of the early rumors for the trade made it seem like basically an unmitigated disaster, which it is not. So that is something.
Saw this on backshegoes.com
I don’t know what the original source is, but supposedly the contract is as follows:
3 years/$60M (2011-13), plus 2014 option
- signed extension with Philadelphia 12/16/09
- 11:$20M, 12:$20M, 13:$20M, 14:$20M option
- 2014 option guaranteed with all of the following:
o 225 IP in 2013,
o 415 IP in 2012-13, and
o Halladay is not on disabled list at end of 2013 season
I would imagine that the option could be picked up by the team if they so desire even if Roy doesn’t meet those criteria, which are pretty steep.
So I guess I need to get a Halladay jersey, really wish we didn’t have to give up so much young talent. We do get one of the top three pitchers in baseball for the next three years though. Really wish Ruben would have waited it out a little to see if he could have shopped somebody else other than Lee.
But alas Lee is in with the M’s, shit happens and we move on. Doc wanted to be in Philly and he got his wish, I for one am glad to have him.
Welcome aboard #34
Scar tissue is stronger than muscle tissue. Realize the strength, move on.
#34
Obviously, he couldnt keep his #32 as a Phillie, but it seems weird that he’s wearing Cliff Lee’s number.
by PhilliesPhan610 on Dec 17, 2009 12:19 AM EST reply actions
Well
Can’t see this as a positive for the Phils. Thinking about all those prospects you lost in both deals, its tough to justify without going after the “Big Two” and a WS title this year. The prospects you got for Lee fail to make up for the two draft picks you would have received next year, in addition to the prospects already given for Lee. I am also shocked that Cliff Lee for a discount year plus two high draft picks couldn’t have netted a better package from another team.
As an A’s fan, I’m very happy with getting Taylor for Wallace. We had a logjam of probable first base prospects, and Taylor is an elite hitter who also has the tools to be a plus OF and good on the basepaths.
Most here agree with you. I think the general lack of consternation is this thread is due to the fact that we’ve gotten nothing but ulcers over the past few days as this thing has gone down, and this afternoon and evening has been about enjoying the fact that Halladay is a Phillie on a below-market deal.
But seriously, enjoy having Taylor. We’ll miss him terribly, especially when Werth leaves as a free agent at the end of the year. What’s scary is that he still seems like he’s just scratching the surface of what he can do. And he seems like a level-headed kid to boot. We all wish him the best of luck.
by PhillyFriar on Dec 17, 2009 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
I was really impressed with his interview with Sarge and Wheels, of all things, after he won the Paul Owens Award. He’s a super-polished guy.
The A’s are building a whole team of ex-Phillie studs, with Cardenas and Outman too. It’s nice to not have to feel bad about rooting for them since they’re in the AL.
It’s rare to see an athlete who strikes you not just as “smart for an athlete” but smart by regular person standards too. That’s what Taylor seemed like to me.
I like the A’s. They are my favorite AL team for two reasons: the Philly connection and Beane. Now that they have a bunch of our former prospects, it makes it that much easier to like them.
Yup, those are the two reasons why I like ’em so much.
They’re headed the right direction, too. Anderson fronting the rotation with Cahill, Gio Gonzalez (another former Phillies prospect), Outman, Braden and Mazzaro chipping in is a good start, as is a lineup core that includes Taylor, Carter, Barton, Weeks and Cardenas.
by PhillyFriar on Dec 17, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
Backed by Nintendo money, I see this off-season as the Mariners reinventing themselves as Yankees west, so the A’s have a doubly tough row to hoe in their division now. From an economic standpoint, I think they are the ones who are really taking best advantage of the Great Recession.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 17, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Or maybe this is a one year shot before they have to give up on Felix cause they won’t be able to keep him long term due to his value?
If you were the Mariners, wouldn’t you begin negotiations with Cliff Lee now about an extension?
by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Well I think how they handle Lee going forward indicates whether they’re seriously in it for the long haul or just taking a shot this year…
by jemagee on Dec 18, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Taylor
As you see, a lot of us really liked him and were looking forward to rooting for him—though with Brown (who also seems like a really good guy as well as a great talent) and Werth (an all-time Phillies fan/TGP favorite, the only player whose jersey I’ve bought ever) hopefully around for the long haul, it wasn’t ever sure that we’d get to do that. I hope he’s great for the A’s, along with our other former farmhands over there (Cardenas, Gio, Outman).
I see what you’re saying about the prospects, but nobody knows for sure. Other than arguably Hamels, none of the Phils’ current homegrown superstars were projected to be superior pros. Either we’re the luckiest organization in the game, or our coaches and instructors really know what they’re doing. Hopefully that continues and the three guys we got from Seattle pan out. A lot is riding on that, obviously.
Feeling empty
But I am on a wait and see posture with this. Moyers contract really kept us from keeping Lee this year.
We don't play stats, we play baseball.
Lee? Stupid
I have no qualms about the Halladay deal – worth the risk. But the Cliff Lee Salary Dump? “Baseball Decision”??? That is SO much BS I can barely breathe… This was strictly about the Buck family needing to take CASH out of the team every year to support their ever-grander lifestyle. They are NOT about Winning, they are about being “competitive” enough so they can continue to keep taking cash out every year – it’s what they live off.
Montie has been kissing their rear ends so long I think he believes it, and Amaro just wants to keep his job. They are like the Eagles: Make a profit, make the playoffs, and that’s good enough. Any team that had a will to win would have kept Cliff for the ridiculously low $9 Mill next year – for the chance to be the BEST team in Baseball. The Buck Family wouldn’t let that happen. Well, Buck You, boys! Cheap Ba$tards…
Cheap is the wrong word, but I do disagree with the salary dump of one season of Cliff Lee…in relation to their over all payroll it’s less than 10% of their budget…and I personally think the ancillary financial impacts of one season of halladay/lee/hamels would offset that 9 million dollars nicely in terms of additional interest, more wins and possible that ‘world series win’ glow.
My problem is that come playoff time, the 2009 phillies aren’t that better than the 2010 phillies, halladay really can’t do better than lee did in the playoffs.
by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
My problem is that come playoff time, the 2009 phillies aren’t that better than the 2010 phillies, halladay really can’t do better than lee did in the playoffs.
my thoughts exactly. it wasn’t our ace that kept us from winning the WS. in fact, he was amazing. it would be hard for halladay to have a lower ERA ( 2.81) and win more games (2) in the WS this year. we’ll def be able to get to the playoffs with lee or with halladay, but now it’s about winning the WS again.
that being said, i still LOVE having halladay, don’t get me wrong. but i dont really see this as being as big a help to win the world series NEXT year considering how awesome lee pitched in novemeber and december and if anything, it depleted our resources for when the end of 2010 and 2001 roll around and we need to make some big decisions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t want to sound like an apologist, but this is ri-goddamn-diculous. Apparently the will to win involves operating without a budget. I suppose that makes the Yankees the only team with a will to win.
I fail to understand the hand-wringing over these deals. The Phillies traded away an ace (who apparently they weren’t going to be able to afford to keep past next year anyway) and three good-to-very good prospects, and got back a better ace (who signed an extension at a very reasonable cost) and three somewhat lesser prospects. In so doing they’ve improved their team for 2010 vs. 2009 and lock up an ace for at least three years beyond, ensuring that they’ll be among the elite teams in the NL while their other core players are still with the team. And those three prospects we got back may be ready to help the team as soon as 2012 when the Phils are going to have some hard decisions about player personnel.
The alternative you suggest was busting the budget (or doing an even more blatant salary dump by trading players like Blanton or Victorino for peanuts) for a one-year shot. That hypothetical team would have been incredible, but incredible teams have failed to win the World Series before, and there’s no guarantee that that one would have done so. And whether they did win in 2010 or not, then what? You lose Lee (presumably for two draft picks), maybe Werth. Those two draft picks help the team no sooner than 2014 or ’15, and in the meantime all the core players will either depart or will be very, very expensive.
In so doing they’ve improved their team for 2010 vs. 2009
By how much, and ‘when it counts’ in the playoffs – how much better can halladay pitch than lee pitched for the phillies this year?
I don’t see the phillies as much better now as they were last week for next season only if they had kept Lee versus making this move…past 2011, there’s too much unknown to say that he’s going to make up for losing werth, the decline of ibanez and rollins…
But all things being exactly the same in 2010 (which I don’t believe is a foregone conclusion either, as players age, some may have had career years) – a full season of halladay versus a full season of lee probably doesn’t add more than 2 wins in the regular season and no offense to doc (who has never pitched in the playoffs) but unless he pitches ever 3 days for the entirety of the playoffs he’s going to have to perform excellently just to match the 2009 playoff performance of cliff lee
by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t say they were much better. But better, yes, at least at the #1 spot in the rotation. Somebody else can perhaps jump in with statistical projections for each, but Halladay over all of 2009 was basically the equal of Lee while he was with the Phillies, even including the playoffs (Roy was considerably better if you exclude Cliff’s playoff numbers). And Halladay has been substantially better over his career. I think it’s reasonable to expect him to outpitch Lee this year.
In the playoffs, no offense to the rest of the NL, but we don’t need Halladay to pitch on short rest to make it to the World Series. But in the World Series, that could be a difference-maker.
is “WAR” a good way to compare pitchers – in 2009 (complete seasons for Lee on both teams) the Fangraphs WAR has lee and halladay less than a full point.
But in the World Series, that could be a difference-maker.
Does he have a long history of short rest? Did Charlie Manuel show motivation to pitch guys on short rest like the yankees were doing, to get more out of his best pitchers?
I don’t feel they improved their team for 2010 where it counts plus they depleted their resources to deal with upcoming (year or two) problems.
by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
i make the price is right "incorrect"
noise all the time at work. slays the coworkers every time…
You Phillies fans need to stop complaining
You got the best pitcher in baseball for the next 4 years. You will love watching him… He will make your entire team better. I dont think you guys realize how good Doc is.
Onions Baby Onions
I don’t think anyone here misunderstands how good Halladay is. I for one am really looking forward to seeing him pitch. And I’m sure he gives the team a big advantage, especially next year. It’s just that Amaro tried to have it both ways by giving up some excellent prospects for Doc (which is understandable given Halladay’s skill) but then deciding to flip Lee to the Mariners in return for some prospects who, quite frankly, are not as valuable as the guys we gave up. As a Phillies fan, I look at the deal Amaro worked out and wonder if he couldn’t have gotten more for such a top flight pitcher as Cliff Lee. And I wonder what harm that could do to the team long term. Having the best pitcher in baseball isn’t much help if there are a bunch of scrubs backing him up.
"You grip it like this, and then throw the s**t out of it."
-Steve Carlton, on his slider
by ThinMountainAir on Dec 17, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
He will make your entire team better.
1. He’s going to teach Jimmy ROllins how to take pitches
2. He’s going to teach Ryan Howard how to fix that hole in his swing.
3. He has a fountain of youth serum he will share with Raul Ibanez
4. He knows the secrets of fielding an excellent 3rd base so that Polanco fields as well as Feliz along with bringing a strong back.
5. He knows what was wrong with Brad Lidge last year
6. He controls luck and thus Cole Hamels will ‘pitch better’
He truly is amazing…
by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
3a. … and Jamie Moyer.
"You grip it like this, and then throw the s**t out of it."
-Steve Carlton, on his slider
by ThinMountainAir on Dec 18, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
His work ethic, professionalism and desire to win
are infectious. listen to any of the Jays players talk about him and you’ll know what i mean.
Onions Baby Onions
I know what you mean but I also found it kinid of silly.
The phillies have been to the world series the past 2 seasons, are you saying they did it being unprofessional and with no desire to win.
by jemagee on Dec 18, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
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