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(Offseason) Prospect Roundup: The Post-Halladay Edition

After much consternation, Roy Halladay is finally a Philadelphia Phillie.  Many, including myself, would have thought that flipping Cliff Lee would provide the necessary prospects for Ruben Amaro to get his man, but that would have been too easy, right?  Thus ensued the construction of a complicated four-team deal (or, really, a series of three two-team deals), and while it felt like it dragged on for weeks, it was suddenly done on Wednesday afternoon.  When the dust had settled, the 2009 playoff hero was gone, along with 3 of the organization's top 4 prospects, and in their place was a new #34, and a new trio of prospects.

I'm not here to debate the merits of what Amaro did, not right now anyway.  What I'm more interested in is assessing how those moves have impacted the Phillies' collection of minor league talent.  The long and short of it is that the good Doc came at a heavy price: the Phillies surrendered 2 prospects that are probably among the Top 25 in all of baseball, and a third who I'd rate more highly than anyone received from the Mariners.  Still, even after dealing away 7 prospects in a span of 5 months, the system is far from barren -- even if it's not the juggernaut it appeared to be a half-year ago.

Without further ado, then, check below the jump as I give my take on the new (if not exactly improved) list of Top 10 prospects in the Phillies system, with a particular emphasis on the new additions...

Star-divide

1.) Domonic Brown, OF-L, Reading
The "Big Three" is now the Big One, and Brown is far and away the top prospect in the system at this point.  He'll likely begin next year back at Reading as a 22-year old, and there's still no rush to get him to the majors.  The emergence of power last year (.205 ISO), paired with his already solid plate discipline (career 11.0% BB, 19.0% K), have him looking like a potential middle-of-the-order hitter.

2.) Tyson Gillies, OF-L, Reading
From off the radar before the year to one of the more exciting prospects in baseball.  Gillies is essentially Anthony Gose, 2 years older, with ever so slightly lesser tools but far more in the way of present baseball skills.  The California League is a hitter's haven, but Gillies' .341/.430/.486 breakout there last year stands out nonetheless.  He's a slap hitter who controls the strike zone well (10.8% BB, 16.3% K), and he utilizes his speed to get on base -- 60.7% of his balls in play last year were grounders, and he's proven to be adept at bunting for base hits.  His speed should prove to be an asset in center field and on the basepaths, but he'll need to work on the nuances of both -- neither his glove work (-8 runs/150 via TotalZone) nor his base stealing (44 in 63 attempts, 69.8%) graded out as stellar in 2009.

As a hitter, Gillies faces a big test as he climbs the ladder, beginning with Double-A next year.  He'll need to do 1 of 2 things in order to avoid being relegated to 4th outfielder status: (1) develop more power (just a .090 ISO last year away from his hitter friendly home park); or (2) decrease his strikeout rate even further, to become an extreme contact hitter.  Gillies' walk rate is solid now, but without an ability to drive the ball, pitchers at upper levels won't be afraid to challenge him over the plate.  At 6'2", 190 lbs., it's not out of the question to think he'll add some power as he matures, but he's not likely to do it with his present swing mechanics.  He'll begin 2010 in Reading as a 21-year old, and if all goes well, his ceiling is that of a league average center fielder.

3.) J.C. Ramirez. RHP, Reading
With the departure of Drabek, the Nicaraguan Ramirez (who goes by Juan in some places) becomes the organization's top pitching prospect.  But it's probably more accurate to think of he, Trevor May and Jarred Cosart as a trio of high ceiling right-handers with similar ceilings in different stages of development.  Ramirez is the farthest along of the three -- he took on High-A last year, but a quick look at the numbers shows that High-A won that battle: Ramirez went 8-10 with a 5.12 ERA and 1.45 WHIP.  The advanced metrics show he wasn't that bad, however (7.02 K/9, 3.35 BB/9, 1.14 HR/9, 41.9% GB, 4.76 FIP), and where Gillies benefited from it, Ramirez's numbers demonstrate the other side of the California League: pitching there is almost impossible.

Keith Law wrote a blog entry back in March on Ramirez, describing him as having "No. 2 starter stuff" with a good fastball that touches 96 and an above-average slider, but a change up that needs a lot of work.  In a lot of ways, he's a younger, slightly impoverished man's version of Carlos Carrasco: impressive stuff, but plenty of work to do on things like command, composure, setting up hitters, etc.  The good news is that his stuff is obviously good, he's got a workhorse frame (6'3", 225 lbs.), and he's just 21 years old, so there's plenty of time for all of it to come together.  The bad news is that if the change up fails to develop, Ramirez is ticketed for the bullpen.  He did have an impressive 2008 as a 19-year old in the Low-A Midwest League (8.20 K/9, 2.76 BB/9, 0.65 HR/9, 48.0% GB, 3.55 FIP), so maybe 2009 was the aberration.  I'll venture to guess that the Phillies start him in Reading, but I'd probably start him in Clearwater so he gains confidence, and promote him when warranted.

4.) Trevor May, RHP, Clearwater
Another big right-hander, May showed flashes in his full season debut in Low-A Lakewood last year, whiffing 95 in 77.1 innings (11.06 K/9) and posting a 2.56 FIP.  But he's a fly ball pitcher (36.6% GB) and has work to do on his command (5.00 B/9).  Just 20, May will tackle Clearwater next year, and while he's several years away from the bigs, that also means he has plenty of time to try to work out the kinks.

5.) Anthony Gose, OF-L, Clearwater
The player development guys should give Gose the assignment of shadowing Gillies during spring training.  His bat is his weakest tool, though he managed to post a not-terrible .259/.323/.353 line at Lakewood last year.  More encouragingly, Gose improved his control of the strike zone in last year's second half (post-All Star: 8.0% BB, 16.7% K), which indicates an ability to make adjustments with the bat.  That's something he'll need as he continues to climb the ladder.  His tools are a tick above Gillies', which is no small compliment, but the 19-year old has a lot of work to do to get to the majors.

6.) Domingo Santana, OF-R, Williamsport
The youngster showed impressive power in his pro debut, ISOing .220 in the GCL -- not bad for a kid who played the bulk of the season at age 16.  He'll have to cut down on the strikeouts (37.3% K), but he has a decent enough feel for the strike zone (11.3% BB), and has the speed and arm to profile as an above-average right fielder.  As long as he's moved slowly, the Phillies could have something special on their hands here.

7.) Sebastian Valle, C-R, Lakewood
Valle has been the story of winter ball for the Phillies, mashing 10 HRs in the Mexican League (which features mostly Mexican pros and some Triple-A players) en route to a .280/.326/.576 line.  He'll need to develop more patience, and his defense is a work in progress, but his power is already an asset for a backstop, and he's still just 19 years old.

8.) Phillippe Aumont, RHP, Reading
If you read something that says that Aumont is the piece of the deal that's here to replace Drabek, I'd suggest you stop reading it immediately.  Both were high draft picks (Aumont went 11th overall in 2007), and both are righties with good fastballs, but past that, the comparison falls apart.  Drabek still profiles as a #2/3 starter, while the Mariners were so concerned with Aumont's elbow problems that they moved him to the bullpen in spring training this year.  He's likely to stay there, too: his mechanics have him throw across his body, which puts a strain on his arm, so he's not a good bet to hold up throwing 150+ innings per year.  The bullpen suits him better, anyway; he's really a one pitch guy at this point, with an inconsistent slider and a below-average change up.

But now that we see what Aumont isn't, let's talk about what he is: a mountain of a man (6'7", 220 lbs.) who throws a big, sinking fastball, and who could probably hold his own in the major league bullpen at some point in 2010.  The Phillies would be ill-advised to rush him, though, because some development time in the minors to hone his slider could make him a top flight reliever, even an eventual closer.  His sinker touches 95 and helps him induce a bunch of ground balls (49.7% last year), and he has no trouble getting swings and misses, striking out 59 across 51 High-A and Double-A innings this year (10.4 K/9).  His command needs work, as evidenced by his 23 walks last year (4.06 BB/9), and that's something he'll strive to fix at Reading in 2010.

9.) Antonio Bastardo, LHP, Philadelphia
From one reliever to another.  With Scott Eyre a free agent, and J.C. Romero something of a question mark, Bastardo looks like a good bet to be in the Phillies' bullpen on Opening Day 2010.  It's the role he's best suited for: his fly ball tendencies and not insignificant platoon split make him a bad match for starting in Citizens Bank Park.  He has the potential to be a good, hard-throwing bullpen lefty for many years, especially given the havoc he wreaked on lefty hitters throughout his minor league career (.169 BAA, 11.70 K/9, 2.96 BB/9).

10.) Jarred Cosart, RHP, Lakewood
Even with Aumont on board, Cosart might have the biggest arm in the system.  He touched 96 with the GCL Phillies this year, and in high school, he reportedly hit 101 on a throw from the outfield.  He's considerably rawer than both Ramirez and May, but his ultimate upside is similar.  He only threw 24 frames in his first pro season, so more than anything he just needs innings under his belt.

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For reference

Jayson Stark has an article up in which he interviewed BA’s John Manuel, who said he would restack the Top 10 like this:

1. Brown
2. Gose
3. May
4. Valle
5. Cosart
6. Aumont
7. Bastardo
8. Gillies
9. Santana
10. Jiwan James or Scott Mathieson

by PhillyFriar on Dec 17, 2009 1:11 AM EST reply actions  

 I can’t believe you passed up an opportunity to use the word “toolsy” in your prospect review :)

by Boundforbeach on Dec 17, 2009 8:45 AM EST up reply actions  

more tools on Stark’s than in that nightclub on Jersey Shore.

BOOM! ZING!

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 8:47 AM EST up reply actions  

where you at Taco Pal?

by Boundforbeach on Dec 17, 2009 8:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Hello! Just wanted to say that I hate each and every one of you!

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Taco pal, truly your greatest tool is hatred.

by Trev223 on Dec 17, 2009 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

No, no, that’s not a tool, it’s a skill!

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 9:58 AM EST up reply actions  

taco pal is hating for power and average this week. Watch yourselves.

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 17, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

He also has the speed and a plus arm if you try to run on him.

by Cormican on Dec 17, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

outstanding

Bookmark this, we’ll need these nicknames.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

these are interesting to do even with our screen names.

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 17, 2009 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I am Wet “The Sausage Party” Luzinski. Seems apt!

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 17, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Whole “The Deltoid” Camels

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Whole ‘de pickles’ camels

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

my favorite is the Prince of Paramus!

by Boundforbeach on Dec 17, 2009 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

used to work there

It’s nothing to brag about.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

There’s a big mall there, right?

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 9:58 AM EST up reply actions  

there are like 30 big malls there, which is kind of strange in light of Bergen County’s Blue Laws that prohibit non-essential business on Sundays.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Guidos aside, there’s got to be a good real-life nickname out there for Aumont. But he’ll inevitably end up being called something played-out like “Frenchy”.

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

“Breaker” Aumont, since his first experience against an MLB player was breaking Wright’s bat?

"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"

by The Dark on Dec 17, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh man, Jeff Francoeur’s gonna be pissed off if that happens.

"You grip it like this, and then throw the s**t out of it."

-Steve Carlton, on his slider

by ThinMountainAir on Dec 17, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

By all rights he should be out of the league in 2 years

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I fucking love that show.

by FuquaManuel on Dec 17, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Likelihood of Brown and Gillies both inhabiting our major league outfield after 2011?

by FuquaManuel on Dec 17, 2009 1:44 AM EST reply actions  

I would bet on Gillies more for 2012. Which, coincidentally, is when Victorino’s contract is up.

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 10:01 AM EST up reply actions  

2011 on the bench as a 4th OF? Speed and all. Wonder if they are trying to make up for Bourn.

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Dec 17, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions  

That would be pretty sweet, actually.

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I still kind of question why we didn’t have Gose up in September for the Speed Off the Bench™ role, but I am lost in the vagaries of service time, etc. We just needed someone Certifiably Pesky™ on the bases.

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 17, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

service time, 40-man roster

it just wouldn’t make sense.

you’d start his service clock way before necessary…a move that could cost you a year’s worth of pre-arb cheapness.

also, he’d have to stay on the 40-man afterwards, which would limit overall roster flexibility. and you would burn an option year the next year in spring training to send him down to the minors for the season ahead.

by Governator on Dec 17, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

Plus he’d only have 3 options years after you called him up, so he would have to stick in the majors full time starting in 2013. I’d like to think he’ll be able to, but he’s still incredibly raw, so calling him up was a non-starter.

by PhillyFriar on Dec 17, 2009 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks for the lesson. I thought as much. Really the move was Mayberry, but I won’t get into that spilled milk.

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 18, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, Mayberry should’ve been on the postseason roster. Before the playoffs, Charlie was hinting at calling someone up specifically to be a pinch runner, but then muttered something like, “But we think he might be too young.” There was speculation that that meant Gose, but at this point, I think it was probably Quintin Berry (who was 24 at the time, but it would be perfectly within reason for Uncle Cholly to just think of him as a “young guy”).

by PhillyFriar on Dec 18, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, 2012 would be after 2011.

by Cormican on Dec 17, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, you said “after” 2011, so I guess the likelihood is pretty good. Likelihood that it’ll be better than an outfield with Brown and Taylor? Not as good.

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Good stuff. I agree on most of this, though if there’s any way of using Aumont as a starter without further improving his chances of injury, I want to see them do that. I’ve heard his mechanics can be cleaned up; if need be, I’d keep him in extended ST and then send him to Clearwater, to get his legs back under him in the somewhat pitcher-friendly FSL. Even if he’s an eventual reliever in the bigs, starting in the minors should speed the development of his secondary pitches.

Otherwise, I was thinking that Gillies and Gose seem similar enough that it would be surprising to see them both surface with the big-league Phillies unless one or both develops some power. In CBP, it would be wasteful to have a corner OF who can’t reach the seats 20-plus times in a season, and only one of them can play center.

FM, I think Werth will re-sign a long-term deal, and Brown should be ready sometime in 2011; if Gillies continues to develop, he could have those two guys flanking him in 2012.

I do wish we’d been able to keep D’Arnaud. Pretty amazing when you think that we’ve traded three home-grown catching prospects (Jaramillo, Marson) in the last year. It sounds like Valle has some stick, but he’s not a can’t-miss guy (though none of them were either) and he’s at least three years away. Hopefully Ruiz can stay at his ’09 level for awhile yet.

by dajafi on Dec 17, 2009 1:57 AM EST reply actions  

Agreed on Aumont. I meant to fit something on him possibly moving back to the rotation into the piece, but I started to run out of room. Ajay linked to a Zolecki blog entry below where Looper says that they’ll have internal discussions about what to do with Aumont, and it’ll be interesting to see what comes of that.

On one hand, I’m a big believer that you don’t shuttle a guy off to the bullpen until he proves that he can’t hack it as a starter. On the other hand, for a guy with iffy mechanics, a history of elbow soreness, and rumors swirling about a possible degenerative hip condition, keeping him in the rotation may not be worth the injury risk.

I’m more than willing to change my tune if the Phillies decide he’s a starter, and he looks like he can hold up in the role. If that’s the case, I’d quite honestly vault him to #2 on this list. But given what I’ve heard and read about him over the past year, I’m not terribly optimistic about it.

by PhillyFriar on Dec 17, 2009 9:23 AM EST up reply actions  

A good slo mo video of Aumont from this past season. He looks to have some timing issues and he throws almost all with his upper body. If he can’t adjust his mechanics, there’s no way that arm will last for 200 innings a season.

by Cormican on Dec 17, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Just at a first blush, it looks inconsistent. The main factor looks to me like what he’s doing when he takes the ball back behind his body to the release point. In the slo mo it looks very different from the replay where he freezes Loewen in the WBC. In the latter it almost looks like he takes the ball back to his belt near the small of his back. So those nasty breaking pitches look good, but clearly something of his is still getting hit hard.

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 17, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

First thing I noticed was his glove hand flying around all willy nilly. His timing is funky too, he appears to still be facing the short stop when his left foot lands. And, yeah, looking at a few videos, it is inconsistent.

by Cormican on Dec 17, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Ramirez No. 3???

LOLOLOLOL….. This guy will be kicking around AAA for 5 years, then gone… Stupid post

by SJDinAudubon on Dec 17, 2009 3:15 AM EST reply actions  

gold star!

What a terrific, substantive comment!

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 7:52 AM EST up reply actions  

silly. The world ends in 2012. Amaro has fired Dallas Green and is listening to Darren Daulton.

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 17, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you even know who Ramirez was before the trade?

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

No, Hanley's brother

"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"

by The Dark on Dec 17, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I thought he was the token Latino cop about to snap from an 80s buddy action comedy.

“RAMIREZ! Get in here! I’ll have your damn badge Ramirezzzzzz!”

by Trev223 on Dec 17, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

he's a renegade

Who plays by his OWN RULES.

Cleaning up the streets… ONE THUG AT A TIME.

Dispensing justice… THE ONLY WAY HE KNOWS HOW.

He’s… RAMIREZ.

Premiering Tuesdays this fall, on NBC, after “That’s Incredible!”

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s sad that I remember that That’s Incredible was on ABC right?

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I actually had no idea, and did the quick mental computation that I would hate myself if I took the time to look it up, so I guessed and figured I had a 1/3 chance of being right. And I was wrong.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

NBC did have classics like the A-Team and Misfits of Science

Plus the best tv executive in the past 40 years or so

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks man. Appreciate the work and the info, although this doesn’t exactly leave me brimming with confidence for the future. Now that Amaro has pillaged and downgraded the farm, let’s hope he has the sense to start rebuilding it.

by Boundforbeach on Dec 17, 2009 7:52 AM EST reply actions  

So, they are protecting the phuture?

Just got done reading all the Philly columnists, comments from Dave Montgomery, etc. The point repeatedly made is – contrary to prior reports- money was, ahem, not an issue. Apparently, ownership would have agreed to increase the budget to take on both Lee and Halladay, but feared a backlash from stripping the farm. In this regard, they claim to have done exactly the opposite of what many here (myself included) have accused them of not doing.

But still unanswered is why Seattle had to be our trading partner. Was there no better prospects to be had from another team? If the Mariner’s prospects were really that promising, we could have just flipped them to the Jays and held onto our own. And why is the invisible hand of Gillick so-oft repeated in this deal? Because he intimately knows all three farm systems? Where does his loyalty ultimately lie? And in terms of timing, why did the trades have to be simultaneous? My guess is that if we traded for Doc and began to shop Lee, the inmates would have demanded that we keep both. I dunno.

by Boundforbeach on Dec 17, 2009 8:36 AM EST reply actions  

across the border

If money wasn’t an issue, then why did they basically “sell” Kyle Drabek for $6MM?

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 8:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Good point. Wish someone had put that to Montgomery.

by Boundforbeach on Dec 17, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions  

ca$h

That’s not to say I’m bitching necessarily, I understand how budgets work, and that they’re necessary, but to say that money didn’t factor into this trade at all is just flatout disingenuous.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 8:46 AM EST up reply actions  

It could just be foolishness. They could have easily saved the same amount of money from other places this offseason (Condrey instead of Durbin, Bako instead of Schneider, some scrub instead of Gload…).

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Ummm....

[some scrub instead of Gload]

!

Remember the Phitans

by RememberthePhitans on Dec 17, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Really informative; thanks PF. Quick question, when you say that Gillies has the potential to be a “league-average” CF, how does that compare to a CF that was a “Replacement player?” In other words, how does Gillies projection differ (if at all?) from the hypothetical player considered in VORP and WARP.

I realize I could probably google this, but in all of my sabremetric surfing, I’ve never really seen the difference discussed, and I just fear “league average” versus “replacement player” might be semantic only. Though looking at the two, I’d guess league average was preferable.

by Trev223 on Dec 17, 2009 9:00 AM EST reply actions  

Good question; that's something that may need clarifying.

The most simple way to illustrate the point is to take a look at Fangraphs’ WAR (win above replacement) numbers for center field — let’s say, for 2008 and 2009.

Since it’s wins above replacement, the replacement players are the guys in the 0 range: Vernon Wells and Alex Rios in 2009, Willy Taveras and Michael Bourn last year. Taveras is probably the best example of a replacement player — he provides essentially no value to a club as an everyday player.

The league average guys are, on the other hand, somewhere near the middle of the bell curve: B.J. Upton or our own Shane Victorino this year, Jacoby Ellsbury or Matt Kemp last year. I’d say Ellsbury is probably the best representation of the term as far as center fielders go. League average for center field is actually a pretty good compliment, since it’s relatively high on the defensive spectrum and is consequently not an easy position to fill. If you can develop a league average player at a position, and have him be cost-controlled for 6 years, then he’s a real asset to your club.

by PhillyFriar on Dec 17, 2009 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Okay, that clarifies quite a bit, and certainly gets me a bit more optimistic about Gillies. Thanks.

by Trev223 on Dec 17, 2009 9:58 AM EST up reply actions  

sabremetric surfing

Now that’s a good turn of phrase

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

One thing

Zolecki’s interview with Looper makes it sound like Aumont is not necessary ticketed for the bullpen. So they might still see him as a starter.

by ajay on Dec 17, 2009 9:05 AM EST reply actions  

I was actually under the impression that Seatle moved him to the pen to rush him to the majors faster. I would think right now, he is a much better fit in Philly in the pen than as a starter.

by CountryRoads_to_a_WFC on Dec 17, 2009 9:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Home Plate

Just heard part of an interview with Aumont on XM Home Plate with Scott Graham.

He likes pitching out of the bullpen because he feels it’s more closely in line with his “aggressive” pitching style, but all the usual platitudes about “going to the rotation will be exciting too” etc.

Sounds like Inspector Clouseau a little bit.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Dec 17, 2009 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Brett Myers #2?

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Dec 17, 2009 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I think he means the accent.

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Le tete de viande? Suckre bleu?

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 17, 2009 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Third base

I guess the recent trade puts to bed those Sebastian Valle playing third base rumors that BA was floating a few months back. Do we have anyone in the system who projects as developing into a viable third base call-up in a few years?

by Boundforbeach on Dec 17, 2009 9:32 AM EST reply actions  

Travis Mattair could be a Gold Glove third baseman if his bat would ever improve, but after two years in Lakewood where he’s shown little power and a lofty strikeout rate, you’d be wishcasting to ever see him as a major leaguer.

And he’s the best in the system. Needless to say, it’s not particularly pretty at the hot corner right now. I’m almost a bit surprised that the Phillies didn’t ask for Alex Liddi among the prospects the M’s shipped over — an Italian third baseman who just had a breakout year in (where else?) the California League — but I’m not terribly disappointed, as I like Liddi considerably less than the guys we did receive.

by PhillyFriar on Dec 17, 2009 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

One hole in the minor league system is not a big deal anyway. It’s not like you’re ever going to have 9 out of 9 homegrown players in your lineup at one time. Better to have the best talent overall and if you need to use stopgaps at one position, that’s OK.

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

2 holes in the minor league system a big deal?

There’s no short stop prospect that I’ve seen mentioned is there?

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

No. Overall talent level is more important than having coverage at every position.

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Heard Rube on 610 this morning. Didn’t really say too much other than yay for me, I got the best.

They amazingly did make a salient point about why Lee had to be traded right away. Not sure if anyone here made it earlier, but if they were going to trade Lee (and apparently they were) there was no way they could wait a month to get a better deal as the fan base boiled over in anticipation of a Halladay, Lee, Hamels rotation. I am betting that most of the Halladay stuff was in the books weeks ago while they secretly found a suitor for Lee so that they could make the move at the exact same time.

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Dec 17, 2009 10:02 AM EST reply actions  

They could have waited on the Halladay trade too though, right?

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Theoretically sure, but they had less control there, there was at least one other team bidding for Halladay even before they lost Lackey, and there was a ‘deadline’ on a Halladay deal…I have no problem with making the Halladay deal now (over paying per se is a different story), but having to do the lee deal at the same time seems silly

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

so… don’t maximize prospects and create a bidding war for Lee because the fan base would have been howling to keep both. Well, that’s already happening. What a stupid, stupid reason for rushing a deal.

by Boundforbeach on Dec 17, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed. I know that GM’s like Epstein and Beane are critiqued for being “elitist,” but that’ idiotic. I’d rather a GM that didn’t really care what my gut reaction as a fan was because they were comfortable with their own intelligence and planning.

by Trev223 on Dec 17, 2009 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

That is a marketing strategy my friends.

You don’t go into the season on a low note like trading away an ace…you go in on a high note by signing an ace for 5 years.

If we got excited for a Halladay, Lee, Hamels rotation, only to watch Lee get traded right before the season, we would have been pissed and they might not have had as many sell outs.

Maybe Boston doesn’t have to worry about sellouts anymore…

by Clyde Simmons on Dec 17, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I don’t buy it, winning and a world series contender is more important than one player, I doubt trading lee now or in a month or so would have substantial impact on the gate compared to the improvement in assets acquired by not rushing into the trade

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I disagree. those “610” fans you keep referring too would be even more outraged then they already are. How do we even know we would have gotten more? Are we sure that Lee wasn’t shopped.

I still think the prospects we acquired are comparable to what we gave up for Lee in the first place, and that included a post season of Lee and a 4th OF.

by Clyde Simmons on Dec 17, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Most of 610 staff likes the trade outside of Ike, but he really knows nothing, its a shame, great to listen to though because you know he hates Howard.

I couldn’t be more happer with the 4 OF’er we got in the trade.

by Ant on Dec 17, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Does anyone on WIP know anything about anything?

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

The 610 fans would be sound and fury signifying nothing in my opinion – just like their idol Eskin…they’d bluster, they’d complain but they’d still go to as many games as they planned to when they thought Halladay and Lee would be pitching together, as long as the phillies win.

They hate reid, they hate donovan, want him replaced by a scrub with little NFL resume, but they keep going to the games…sound and fury…and I should know.

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I was listening to Eskin before Game 5 in '08

He had the following conversation with a caller:

Caller: “Hey, Howard, do you think the rain’s gonna be a problem tonight?”
Eskin: “Rain? What’cha talkin’ about the rain for? Naw, the rain’s not gonna be a problem. Rain? Thanks for the call. Rain? Can’t believe this guy, talkin’ about the rain.”

Absolutely my favorite Eskin memory.

"You grip it like this, and then throw the s**t out of it."

-Steve Carlton, on his slider

by ThinMountainAir on Dec 17, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Out of curiosity – since his return – does he still refer to Iverson as the ‘point guard’ or does he use his actual name?

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure, I haven’t listened to him in months.

"You grip it like this, and then throw the s**t out of it."

-Steve Carlton, on his slider

by ThinMountainAir on Dec 17, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

If Amaro was Pinocchio he would have poked Angelo's eye out

The organization comes to the winter meetings crying poor as expressed in a Daily News Dec.9 article “The Phillies Mean Buisness on Their Budget” which, by the way, I found Fox Sports had picked up. This tells any other GM that for the Phillies to make a blockbuster move they must dump Lee lest they break the seal on their budget chasity belt. In steps Halladay who costs us 2 top tier and a 2nd tier prospect which is the ceiling set for a player of equal value. Now Lee’s value prior to the meetings had by his record setting post season performance increased substantially relative to other superstar 1 year rentals like Roy. So, at the very least Lee should have commanded 1 top tier prospect which in the Marniers farm system would have been Saunders or Morrow. However once Halladay upgraded to red pinstripes, what GM in their right mind would offer anything close to the ceiling since they know how we are a beacon of budget management and therefore Lee, whose 9 million would, if not in full then a sizable chunk of, be covered by all things Phillies wrapped in pretty paper under au tanenbaum, must go. So best to exploit the Seattle connection where at least we might garner some pity. And so ends the story of “3 Magic Beans for a Gold Bar” by Randolph and Mortimer Duke who bet one dollar that they could screw Philadelphians out of the best pitching rotation since the 1929-30 A’s with out anyone knowing the wiser.

by j reed on Dec 25, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Hey – what mediocre OF’s are FA’s in 2010, we can start penciling them in for the 2011 opening day

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 10:39 AM EST reply actions  

Thames (DET), Kubel (MIN), Hawpe (COL), Cuddyer (MIN), Byrnes (ARI)

Not opposed to Kubel, don’t think anyone would be, but with age on his size (old), I see Cuddyer :)

Also theres Pat the Bat, Coco Crisp, Jose Guillen

by Ant on Dec 17, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m thinking that the phillies way means they’ll have to sign two because they won’t want brown to be ready until 2012 (regardless of if is ready in 2011) and I believe Ibanez might need a walker to play outfield in 2011

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I still see the Phillies, if he has another great year, will sign Werth next year. It will eliminate any return of Howard though, but someone from the AL will want him more then we will pay him anyways.

by Ant on Dec 17, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Rumors are that it’s a weak OF FA market next year so Werth might be in high demand and ‘bidding war’ doesn’t seem like something the phils would be involved in does it?

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Nope I still think they will retain him somehow, he will be over 30 as well and if he still hits around .260 that will help a bit with offerings. I see us more dumping Victorino next offseason. That and shouldn’t the payroll go up next year for us?

by Ant on Dec 17, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah but Halladay goes from 15 mil (plus that 6 mil cash from toronto factored in makes it 9?) to 20 – so that’s an 11 million dollar raise, and Howard, Utley, Ibanez and Rollins contracts escalate a bit I think?

Raises via arbitration to guys like Hamels and Ruiz

PS – if you lose victorino you still need two outfielders in my opinion, because I think Ibanez will be useless come opening day 2011

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s more likely they retain the flyin hawaiin. He’d be cheaper and the Phils best CF prospects are at least 3 years from the show.

by Cormican on Dec 17, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Semi-interesting Seattle Times article behind the scenes of the trade from the Ms perspective.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2010522667_mari17.html

by irons21 on Dec 17, 2009 11:11 AM EST reply actions  

Fairly infuriating if true that originally Aumont was headed to Toronto only for us to cave and throw in Drabek.

by irons21 on Dec 17, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

It most likely meant we get to keep Brown

by Clyde Simmons on Dec 17, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

And yet if Aumont was in the deal they probably would have kept Drabek and Brown

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

So the Jays would have taken Aumont, Taylor and d’Arnaud?

Sorry, I think it would have been Aumont, Brown, d’Arnaud.

by Clyde Simmons on Dec 17, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

And yet you have no way of being certain it wouldn’t be the other way around.

Remember, Taylor was flipped for Wallace, maybe the A’s have no interest in Brown, maybe Toronto preferred Taylor in the deal cause it helped them get Wallace.

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

the Wallace rumors were so late on day 3 I think it was an after thought….

but you have no way of knowing either. This whole thing is just speculating.

by Clyde Simmons on Dec 17, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

What if the A’s had been offering Wallace in a Halladay trade? It sounded like the Jays really wanted him for a long time…prospect for prospect deals are so rare, that really the only way they could happen would be if it wasn’t your prospect in the first place.

by Clyde Simmons on Dec 17, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

So wait, the wallace rumors were an after thought or the jays really wanted him the whole time.

Is there any indication that the A’s were interested in trading for Halladay? It seems a complete violation of their entire business model to say they made an offer for Halladay. It’s not how they work.

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

you obviously didn’t read that I was just throwing out speculation.

The Wallace Rumors came out about 2 days after the initial rumors. I think the Jays would have been ok with either Taylor or Wallace, but they flipped him for Wallace.

Is there any indication that the A’s weren’t interested in Halladay? For all we know every team in the MLB put an offer in for Halladay.

by Clyde Simmons on Dec 17, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Almost everything you’ve thrown out about it being brown and taylor is speculation – but in that one post you speculated on both sides…and speculating that the A’s were in on Halladay is in contrast to all evidence available about how the A’s run their business, so it’s not all that strong of a speculation to start with.

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

right. This whole thing started because you yelled at me for speculating the trade above, which was a perfectly reasonable speculation.

I don’t actually think the A’s made an offer for Halladay…I was simply pointing out you should have a little humility before you start grilling people on reasonable speculations by proving a point with ridiculous speculations.

I hope you don’t see a need to continue to argue this point.

by Clyde Simmons on Dec 17, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

And yet you have numerous ways of being condescending…

by Steve J on Dec 17, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe, but I’ve seen nothing indicating we were ever willing to include Brown.

by irons21 on Dec 17, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Well I bet that we were probably arguing for Aumont, Gilles, d’Arnaud, and they were arguing for Drabek, Brown, d’Arnaud and we told them that we would meet them half way.

by Clyde Simmons on Dec 17, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Great Arti

Great article here:

http://phuturephillies.com/2009/12/15/taking-a-step-back-our-top-10-now/

We are better now than 4 yrs ago and I agree. We also still have a top 10 minor league system.

Who remembers when we were excited for the call up of guys like Dave Coggin? (maybe not excited but he was who we had)

by fantasybc88 on Dec 17, 2009 12:10 PM EST reply actions  

Baseball Prospectus Weighs-In

I don’t have full access (need subscription), but they do make some available. One of the comments, in particular, that caught my eye:

Halladay’s contract is so far removed from his market value that it looks like an error. Remember, he had to approve not only the contract, but the trade to the Phillies that precipitated it. He made the choice that he wanted to be with the Phillies so much—and wanted to be with them immediately so much—that it was worth it to him to leave $60 million, $80 million, maybe $100 million unclaimed. There is no way anyone could have predicted this even a few weeks ago. This is the kind of decision that a player gets to make for himself and his family. Halladay gets to play for a contender in 2010 and gets to do so with a team he wishes to play for, one that holds spring training near his Florida home, and he valued those things more than the marginal dollars foregone by not testing the market. I don’t judge him for it, but I do think we should all be stunned by how much money this man left on the table. There is no precedent for it in sports.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9861

by Boundforbeach on Dec 17, 2009 1:54 PM EST reply actions  

From what I’ve read of them, the vesting options are pretty makable assuming Halladay continues to pitch the way he’s pitched throughout his career and avoids injury, so I think he’ll be getting 100 million dollars from the phillies.

How much money did kobe leave on the table when he went back to the lakers (rumors are the clippers offered more cash)

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

yea but they’re the clippers…

by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Dec 17, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

True, but you don’t think signing Kobe Bryant away form the lakers may have been a franchise changing moment? It was Sterlings big bold move (brand and davis back firing in his face wasn’t as bold) – and I think it would have made the clippers an attractive destination for FA and possibly MADE LA clipper town….look at what dude does…

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

yea true, i was taking a bill simmons-esque stance, prob shouldn’t be doing that. I like some of his writing if its not a Boston bj piece like during pats/sox runs 03-07

by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Dec 17, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Don’t mind me – just waiting for Blake Griffin to come off IR so i can move from 12th to maybe 11th in my fantasy league :)

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Ha I wasn’t going to bring him up but did you see Simmons’ warning on draft day: RUN AWAY BLAKE, RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN

by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Dec 17, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d rather read a column by Stephen A Smith praising the ‘genius’ of Larry Brown than anything written by Bill Simmons except for his ‘worst gm roundtable’

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

The justification behind this entire deal is the so-called discount factor. IF you apply the 6mil back from the Jays, then Halladay’s salary for this year is around 9 mil, which is cheap for a pitcher of his caliber. After that, three years at 20mil per. No gigantic discount there. It seems close to market value. In a sense as you point out the discount is not really in the length either. If he makes his reasonable incentives and this turns into a five year deal, we’re still paying him at $100 mil per year through age 38 (he turns 33 in May). Still not too cheap. The real discount seems to be in minimizing risk. If he goes Zito on us after two years, we’re not on the hook and crippled financially for years to come. So is minimizing the risk worth the price we paid?

by Boundforbeach on Dec 17, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

i’ve got to stop using those damn hyphens

by Boundforbeach on Dec 17, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

really. Me too. Pls fix SB Nation!

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 17, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

The ‘partial’ graphics on the side that are actually links for ‘iwantnfltv.com’ are quite annoying

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

plus the Yankees WS merch ad links I see from time to time. Would that there were some way to at least give us the off season before seeing any of this. It’s just not sporting.

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 18, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve just gotten used to those – that’s just the ad system that sbnation uses and ‘contextual’ ads being shown…if people could stop mentioning the ‘evil empire’ on TGP – we’d stop seeing yankees ads

by jemagee on Dec 18, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not sure 20 million per year for halladay isn’t a discount…sabathia got 7 years 161 million, which works out to 23 mi per year, average.

I mean, if I’m halladays agent negotiating with the big boys I point to sabathias 23 mil per yr avg and say ‘are you telling me roy halladay isn’t worth as much as cc sabathia’?

I think that halladay left 3-5 million dollars per year on the table plus you have to factor in that he’s only guaranteed 3 years – whether you think the vests are easy to make or not – so I think he probably left, conservatively, 55 million dollars on the table (3 million for the first 3 years and than 23 million guaranteed for a 4th/5th year without vesting options)

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Hes a better pitcher, but hes also 5 years older, so I think 23-24 would have been about his range.

by philiafan14364 on Dec 17, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Another consideration though, and I can’t remember who pointed this out: we’re talking about the AAV of a 6- or 7-year deal. If Halladay hit the market next summer and said, “I’m willing to sign a 3-year deal with a vesting option for a 4th year,” I wouldn’t be surprised if the bidding ended just shy of $30 million a year.

by PhillyFriar on Dec 17, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I think if Halladay had been a free agent this year he would have commanded a 6 year 150 million contract. That is 25 mil per, and and 2 less years if he does everything we want him to do in Philly.

Everything can be related in terms of risk…prospects and money included…so maybe the reduced risk of this contract needs to be taken into consideration.

I also have a very strong feeling that should Halladay still be a stud after the three years are up, he could sign an even more reasonable extension to finish his career a Phillie.

by Clyde Simmons on Dec 17, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

wow, that was a point I’ve been tellingmy knee-jerk zomg I love Lee fans. We got Halladay at a discount

by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Dec 17, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

You know – I have a question for PF (and anyone else) regarding this list.

Why is Bastardo listed as a reliever – is that a projection or something the phillies have said they will do long term…I mean he was young and rushed but he didn’t suck as a starter did he?

by jemagee on Dec 17, 2009 2:10 PM EST reply actions  

Maybe its because hes always hurt

by philiafan14364 on Dec 17, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

There are two equally plausible answers to that: (1) the Phillies have hinted that Bastardo can help them in the bullpen next year; and (2) I’m projecting him there long-term.

As I said above re: Aumont, I’m a big believer in letting a guy continue to start until he proves he can’t do it anymore, but there are exceptions to the rule. Bastardo’s pretty much been earmarked as a reliever from the get go. He’s essentially working off two pitches right now, as his slider needs a ton of work to survive in a rotation; he’s never had pristine command (3.9 BB/9 in his minor league career); he’s always been an extreme fly ball pitcher (37.2% GB in minors, 22.7% GB in majors); and you have to at least factor in some concern over a guy his size with a history of arm trouble lasting for 170+ innings a year. Do I think there’s a chance he could stick as a 4th or 5th starter type? Sure. But quite frankly, he’s not ideally suited to it, and whatever upside there is is certainly outweighed by the health risk.

That being said, I don’t want anyone to think I’m dumping on Bastardo here. There’s no question in my mind he can be an effective out of the bullpen, maybe even great at some point, and he deserves to be in our Top 10 on the basis of floor.

by PhillyFriar on Dec 17, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

The prospects we get back might not turn out to be that bad. The Phils minor leagues stress the changeup, and that pitch would vastly help both our new pitching prospects, so maybe we might get something outta this after all.

That said, I really hope they at least try to tweek Aumonts delivery to give him a little longer shelf life.

by philiafan14364 on Dec 17, 2009 3:18 PM EST reply actions  

by tweek, i hope you mean scrap and start over…

"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel

by foos05 on Dec 17, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Tyson Gillies

I can’t wait for the day when we have Gillies for the Phillies (unless there’s something about the pronunciation I’m missing). One of the most appropriate Phillies player names, on the order of Dave Philley.

by phillyinportland on Dec 17, 2009 5:27 PM EST reply actions  

nothing will ever beat Jeff Feagles as an Eagle

by PhilliesPhan610 on Dec 17, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re right. It always seemed wrong when he was kicking for some other team.

by phillyinportland on Dec 17, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I know this problem is solved, and maybe by really good hearing aids, but how do you call off a hearing impaired CF?

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 17, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Gillies is 30% impaired in one ear and 60% impaired in another. Perhaps the team will spring for cochlear implants.

"You grip it like this, and then throw the s**t out of it."

-Steve Carlton, on his slider

by ThinMountainAir on Dec 17, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

doubt it

He would already have gotten them if that was the case, could you imagine if he got hit in the head, regardless of helmet?

by Ant on Dec 17, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

also, given his speed, the inevitable horseracing puns and metaphors make me await his appearance on the roster just like the end of the world in 2012

by Wet Luzinski on Dec 17, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

basically

I think the phillies regressed their system about two years’ worth. At that time, all of the top prospects had finished at clearwater or lower and a bumper crop of high-impact talent was about to enter in the draft.

The encouraging thing when I look at the Phils’ system now is that there is still an abundance of talent there, it’s simply so far away from being major-league projectable it’s hard to say what’s going to happen.

There are several HUGE arms in the system: most notably May, but also Colby Shreve, Jarred Cosart, and Jonathan Pettibone. Throw in Aumont and you have to figure one or two of those guys becomes a bona fide major-league 2/3. There’s also a bunch of fungible back-of-the-rotation/bullpen guys in Drew Carpenter, Mike Stutes, Mike Cisco, and Vance Worley. One or two of those guys can probably fill the Condrey/Durbin role nicely. There’s also the relievers, Schwimer and Rosenberg, who could be 7th/8th inning guys by late 2010 or 2011.

Then you have the hitters: obviously Brown profiles to fill Ibanez’s spot in 2012, Gillies in the majors at some point in 2011 or definitely 2012, Gose probably in 2013. There’s also Domingo Santana, who has the best upside (provided he’s actually 16) of anyone in the system, Zach Collier, Jonathan Singleton and Valle, who all could provide different levels of value at the major league level around 2013/2014.

The way I see it, the Phillies need to focus on hitting in the upcoming draft. The infield, especially 2B/3B/SS/C, needs to be completely restocked. With the exception of Valle, there’s no one in the minors who could be a first-division regular at any of those positions. I would hope they go for some polished college guys at second, third and short, and high school guys at all four positions. This isn’t to say they should neglect outfield and pitching, but they are comparatively more stocked at those positions. I understand the front office has a boner for outfielders who can run and can’t hit, but there comes a time when you need to draft for need to an extent.

Also, given the relative dearth of close-to-the-majors talent in the system presently, I wouldn’t expect the Phils to be able to pull off any major (starting pitcher or position player) deals in 2010 and maybe in 2011 too.

by Governator on Dec 17, 2009 9:19 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

One of the problems we’re going to face is that now that we’ve decided to go all-in (or mostly-in) on an aging team and an “I want it all now” approach, in a couple of years when our lower-level prospects start to blossom into what Drabek and Taylor are today, our major leaguers will be starting to decline and the pressure will be there for the front office to perpetuate the cycle and trade their best prospects yet again. Squandering the future is addictive, a vicious cycle.

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

very true

I think a lot of this hinges on Jason Werth. If Werth re-ups, things look a lot rosier for 2011/2012. 2012 is a big year because that is likely to be post-Ryan Howard and possibly Shane Victorino.

As it stands, I would estimate the Phils will spend between $70-$80 million on Doc, Lidge, Happ, Hamels, Utley, Polanco, Chooch and Francisco. Those are the only players on the team under control/contract for 2012.

Obviously that’s a lot of money and not a lot of baseball players.

If they continue to win through 2011, the payroll would logically increase somewhat, maybe $160 million or so.

Figure Werth decides to resign with the team for about $18 million per and Rollins opts to remain a career Phillie and is on the payroll for a discount considering his age, about $8 mill a year. The option is to re-sign Victorino long-term for slightly less, maybe $12 million per. Either way, the Phils can only afford one.

So now we’re looking at $100 million dollars in payroll, with holes at LF, CF, 1B, two rotation spots, and 5-6 bullpen spots.

You can figure the team can put Gillies/Francisco and Brown into the outfield along with Vic/Werth. First base is a bigger issue, and the team needs production there. Free agency or a trade are probably the only paths for filling that hole.

The rotation can be filled by some combination of Kendrick/Ramirez/Worley/free agents. This situation actually has to be dealt with after the 2010 season, so my guess is Kendrick gets one spot and the other one goes to TBD promoted player or free agent. Not ideal, but that might be the best they can do.

The bullpen is obviously more fungible. Mathieson, Bastardo, Rosenberg and Schwimer could all fill roles there nicely and cheaply if they continue to progress. This problem is also present after 2010, so Mathieson and Bastardo’s effectiveness this year is key going forward. If Rosenberg and Schwimer are major-league ready late this year/spring 2011, that really helps with cost certainty.

Bottom line, the 2012 Phillies are going to be a team predicated on two or three reliable starters and a few aging veterans in the field. I wouldn’t hold my breath for a playoff run in 2012. In 2013/2014 we should start to see a real influx of the players in the system now as the team puts together a new core around Brown and Hamels.

by Governator on Dec 17, 2009 10:03 PM EST reply actions  

Bottom line, the 2012 Phillies are going to be a team predicated on two or three reliable starters and a few aging veterans in the field.

Agreed. That’s why I fear that in the spring of 2011, with the team hovering just above .500, the organization will say “This is the last year of our ‘window’ so let’s empty out our farm system again!” (I can certainly guarantee that the fans and the talking heads will clamor for it.)

In 2013/2014 we should start to see a real influx of the players in the system now as the team puts together a new core around Brown and Hamels.

I hope so, but we won’t if the above happens. Instead we’ll be looking at 1985 redux.

by taco pal on Dec 17, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t even know that we’ll have the ammunition to go out and get someone who would be worthy of emptying the system in a year’s time

by Governator on Dec 18, 2009 12:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Hardball times' take

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/fantasy/article/top-10-prospects-for-2010-philadelphia-phillies-and-atlanta-braves/

Take it with a grain of salt, considering this is what this guy had as our pre-trade top 10.

1. Kyle Drabek
2. Michael Taylor
3. Domonic Brown
4. Domingo Santana
5. Anthony Gose
6. Trevor May
7. Antonio Bastardo
8. Sebastian Valle
9. Travis D’Arnaud
10. Vance Worley

Santana 5 spots ahead of D’Araud?

by philiafan14364 on Dec 17, 2009 10:35 PM EST reply actions  

i can see it…it all depends on how you rate potential vs. proximity.

given his age and numbers santana put up in 09 and his body type, you almost can’t put a ceiling on his potential other than that he probably won’t be a speed threat. but the power potential is real, and it’s remarkable.

now, gose ahead of may and worley at 10 are different matters.

by Governator on Dec 17, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

There is no way Santana should have been ranked at 4. We have seen, what, 100 minor league ABs out of him?

Plus, the age thing is always a question with the latino players. I think theres far too much uncertainty to rank him over D’Arnaud.

by philiafan14364 on Dec 17, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

you’re right, but that’s why there are horse races. there are certainly a lot of positive signs with santana, but the sample size is small and rookie league results are hardly predictive. should be interesting what he does at williamsport this year

by Governator on Dec 17, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed, I can see an argument for Santana at #4 (even if I wouldn’t have put him there), but putting d’Arnaud at #9 is almost indefensible. And I’m as big a Worley fan as you’ll find, but he’s not sniffing our Top 10 right now.

by PhillyFriar on Dec 18, 2009 9:03 AM EST up reply actions  

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