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The Ibanez contract

I realize that there isn't much left to say as most of us have already given our opinions on the ibanez/burrell situation.

but, I just wanted to note that even if the team was fully committed to getting Ibanez (as it looks like they were), it seems more and more likely that they still overpayed for him.  Even if he goes out, plays gold-glove defense, wins the MVP, and hits 50 homeruns, they still overpayed for him.  Even if he brings us another championship, they STILL overpayed for him.

 

It looks like abreu and the angels are closing in on a 1 year, 5.5ish contract.  i.e. half of what the phils are annually paying ibanez.

Here are the basic differences between Ibanez and Abreu:

-Abreu is a better defender

-Abreu has more speed

-Abreu is two years younger

 

Other than that, they are statistically REALLY similar.  I'm not saying that we should have signed bobby over ibanez (although, maybe we should have).  I'm just asking--if we were so set on getting Ibanez, why did we have to pay so much for him?

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We shouldn’t have traded Bobby away in the first place. But that’s water wayyyy under the bridge at this point.

by FuquaManuel on Feb 11, 2009 3:00 PM EST reply actions  

I think your post is particularly timely given Dunn’s signing today. They could have had Dunn and his virtually guaranteed 900 OPS for 10 million cheaper than Ibanez and his 800 OPS. I admit that my head would have probably exploded 20 times this season when Howard and Dunn would have had back-to-back k’s with bases loaded to end the inning, but still.

All in all, Ruben has had an up and down first offseason as the GM. Some of his decision we’ll need to wait and see on, but this, I’m afraid, is not one of them…no way around the fact that he grossly misjudged the market for corner outfielders with warts.

Steve Jeltz
.210/.308/.268
"Ask not what the Phillies can do for you, but what you can do for the Phillies."

by Steve Jeltz on Feb 11, 2009 4:20 PM EST reply actions  

I agree with you. But maybe it’s not realistic to expect a freshly minted GM to play the patience game and grasp that Adam Dunn would be gettable for two years, $10 million per in mid-February.

That said, this was a mistake on Amaro’s part. Probably not a killer mistake, maybe one that Gillick—who brought us some awful f/a signings, as we know—would have made as well, but a mistake. Let’s see if he learns from it.

by dajafi on Feb 11, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

no comparison

abreu is a turnip. how many times did we all bitch & moan when he wouldn’t run into the fence for a ball that ended up being a double? offensively they are similar… okay, so that’s a wash. i still think ibanez is being highly underrated by the blogosphere community. he played in one of the worst franchises in recent history. he STILL managed to produce a ton of offense, now imagine him in our 6 hole and kickstarting innings that jenkins/bruntlett opened up with outs… i see him turning our lineup over often and getting more AB’s for j-roll and company. abreu may have more speed but he never used it for defense. my biggest problem with boby was and still is that he’s simply got no heart for the game. he’s tremendously talented (family guy – wasted talent). ibanez is a workhorse and locker room leader. bobby just wants his paycheck and live in his loft in nyc. we’ll see after this season who was the better pickup… did we overpay for ibanez? probably, but it’ll be wErth it once it’s all said and done…

by PHIGHTINPHILS on Feb 13, 2009 10:42 AM EST reply actions  

“how many times did we all bitch & moan when he wouldn’t run into the fence for a ball that ended up being a double?”

On this blog, never.

by David S. Cohen on Feb 13, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i have also read reports that bobby was not a great locker room guy.

by Ben16 on Feb 13, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m sure you have – by hacks who don’t know any better or don’t have any sources – or use howard eskin as their source.

The phillies gave away bobby abreu and got squadoosh for it (and at the same time gave up a solid middle of the rotation pitcher as well). It’s one of the worst moves of the phils recent history (the worst non move involves billy wagner by the way).

Who cares about what abreu was when he was here – because now it’s now – and not then – and as more and more guys are signed the ibanez contract starts looking worse and worse.

by jemagee on Feb 15, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

think critically

for one thing, this blog is clearly not the place to criticize abreu. we all loved him and any character assassination will fall on deaf ears here.

by any objective measure, he was a hard worker. it’s only the WIP attack clowns that polluted the minds of this city into thinking he wasn’t trying. what is that based on?

think critically. the reports certainly always say that he worked tirelessly, always the first guy to the cages in the morning. of the guys traded at the 2006 trading deadline, he was certainly the most notable, but the bad stories came out about the other players who had been traded— nothing negative came out about abreu. the worst thing said about him was by anyone was jimmy rollins saying that bobby was so good that the team relied on him so much. hardly a criticism. abreu was a star player that kept the phillies in the tick of the playoff hunt for years when the rest of their talent went short. he and rolen were the first superstars of the modern era in phillies, and while they were both gone by the time we won, they built up the winning that led to the revenue that led to the spending that led to the world series championship. and for that, i have to give them credit. rolen is the one who was so heavily criticized when he left town and had subsequent clubhouse problems. abreu was a class act all the way. he was never much defensively, but is offense was elite and is still fantastic enough that a smart team like the angels was able to get themselves one heck of a deal.

from the WIP perspective, they needed a target and the superstar who spoke poor english was the clear and obvious choice for them. but from a critical thinking fan’s perspective, what exactly was wrong with him? no talking points— think critically about what exactly it was that he did wrong and you might have trouble thinking of something other than putting together marginal defense.

by Matt Swartz on Feb 14, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Bobby A.?

Who really would want Bobby back in Philly? They played better without him. I agree that the Phillies got NOTHING in return for him, but they won more without him. The Yankees did not win the big games with him either. I live in NYC and the Yankees fans were totally tired of him too. He plays without enthusiasm or desire.

He was a great Phillie, but come on now… the Yankees let him go without much of a replacement. No one wanted him. He is not a great defender. He is afraid of the wall. He walks when you need a hit.

Why was Amaro so cold on Burrell? Did Pat miss something? Was he too streaky? Why no effort to sign him? He actually liked playing in Philly. Raul is a solid player and probably better than Burrell. He might light it up at CBP.

by PhaninQueens on Feb 15, 2009 6:09 PM EST reply actions  

He walks when you need a hit.

Be better if he took swings at balls out of the strike zone huh?

"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."

Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.

by jemagee on Feb 15, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

OY

For the deal he signed with LA, I’m sure most of us would rather have signed him than Ibanez at the deal he signed. I don’t care how enthusiastic my players are. I want to keeping winning World Series. That makes me enthusiastic.

The Phillies won more after Abreu left in 2006, but that was mainly due to the hot streaks by Rollins, Hamels coming into his own, and Lieber returning to form. None of those things were related to Abreu leaving. The fallacy of believing that something that happens after something else was therefore caused by it is where most errant human assumptions come from. Don’t make that one.

“Walking when you need a hit” is the least logical and least fact-based criticism of Bobby Abreu at all. Pitchers pitch around good hitters with runners on base. This is well documented. Batting average on pitches out of the strike zone is incredibly low. That is also well documented. Therefore, there is no logic to blaming Abreu for the fact that pitchers were afraid of him nor for the fact that he chose not to GIDP on sliders in the dirt on 3-1 counts.

Who cares if Abreu was afraid of the wall? He played 162 games a year in Philly, most of them as our best hitter, precisely because he didn’t throw himself into walls. It’s great when your schlubs throw themselves into walls because their replacements aren’t much worse, but I’d like my superstars to watch their health more carefully.

There are conflicting reports on why Burrell left Philly. Recent indications are that he was offered a deal during the season that was more lucrative than the one he took and he rejected it. The Phillies were apparently hesitant to give him too many years. However, there is a strong sentiment that Burrell was perennially under-appreciated by Phillies management, and perhaps that’s why they didn’t make more of an effort. Raul Ibanez is not better than Abreu by most measures. I’m not sure how anyone could make a strong case that he’s better enough that it justifies the extra money and extra left handedness.

by Matt Swartz on Feb 15, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

. However, there is a strong sentiment that Burrell was perennially under-appreciated by Phillies management,

Don’t forget the ‘average’ fan – the same fan who hated Abreu as well.

ANd yes, I still think the phillies have a portion of their motivation based on placating the fan base…

"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."

Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.

by jemagee on Feb 15, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I think everything that needs to be said on Abreu has been said. Thankfully, we’ve really lucked out since the trade. First, Aaron Rowand had a career year in the last year of his contract. Second, Pat Gillick took a flyer on Jayson Werth, and came up aces (yes I like mixed metaphors). Neither of those things was particularly likely to happen. But because they did happen, we’ve barely been hurt at all.

Of course, if we’d actually gotten something of value back for Bobby, we might have even come out ahead, so there was still a pretty terrible missed opportunity there at the very least.

by taco pal on Feb 16, 2009 1:09 PM EST reply actions  

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