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Phillies Breakfast Links: May 29, 2009

Bill Conlin truly, completely outdoes himself here.  Preview: Brett Myers has a "designer injury."

Oh yeah, they might be losing a starting pitcher.

This is why we can't have nice things, Gonzo.

The Fightins tries to persuade Jake Peavy to come to the awful Sodom-on-the-Schuylkill that is Philadelphia.  (borderline NSFW)

Ruben Amaro meets his first true test.

Feliz = Rolen.  Wait, what?

Harry Kalas will be the 2009 inductee into (onto?) the Phillies Wall of Fame.  Good on you.

Jewelers estimate the value of the Phillies' World Series rings.  Yesterday truly was an off-day.

Some Mariners types want to transform Erik Bedard into Michael Taylor, as detailed in this exceedingly confusing article.  Eh.

NL East

Diamondbacks 5, Braves 2 - Dan Haren outpitches Derek Lowe.

 

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Rosterbation-Mania!

Nov 2009 from South Side Sox - 234 comments

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That Conlin article...

Deserves an ass beating post of it’s own. Seriously, I am embarrassed for you WC (nice initials) for your only one sentence retort there. I NEED MORE ANGER!!!

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on May 29, 2009 8:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This website features an extensive comments section. I report, you deride.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on May 29, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have you every done stand up comedy by any chance?

by FuquaManuel on May 29, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Having a hard time reading any potential sarcasm here, but no.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on May 29, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, I was serious.

by FuquaManuel on May 29, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In that case, thank you.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on May 29, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But Conlin says there’s “zero empiric evidence” that lower pitch counts prevent injuries! Are you telling me he shouldn’t be trusted on such matters?

by taco pal on May 29, 2009 11:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You’d think understanding of such words would be prerequisite for use in a news paper article.

He’s like the print version of eskin

"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."

Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.

by jemagee on May 29, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think they’re somewhat different. Eskin is a much more cynical character. Conlin is sincere, but he’s just extremely rude and tends to be wrong all the time. Incidentally, they despise each other.

by taco pal on May 29, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, I explained it differently, do they write (or say) what they truly believe or are they doing it for the ‘ratings’ – be it the listeners or the folks posting comments and picking up the paper.

I’ve seen Conlin on ESPN and I just get the feeling he’s all act trying to keep his job in a dying inudstry and being a dinosaur himself

"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."

Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.

by jemagee on May 29, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I dunno. I’ve always thought he was actually like that. He was known for being like that in the ’70s even.

by taco pal on May 29, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe Conlin is the model for the old comic strip, “Shoe”

by Wet Luzinski on May 29, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have empiric evidence. I have never pitched a game of regulation baseball and never frayed a labrum, in my arm or elsewhere. Despite this small sample, I would wager that there are billions of people all over the world in my category.

by Wet Luzinski on May 29, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On a more serious note, I think it’s plausible that allowing young pitchers to rack up high pitch counts will help the minority of naturally durable freaks to develop better stamina. The question is whether that will be worth the many other potentially productive careers you will snuff out in the process.

by taco pal on May 29, 2009 11:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Conlin’s premise — that pitchers in the “olden days” were tougher because they threw more pitches early in their development — is really almost impossible to disprove because all of the counterexamples (i.e., guys who got hurt due to workload and never recovered) are not well-known to anyone. Because they weren’t big league ballplayers. They went back to school and became teachers, took over the family business, became coaches, opened barbershops, etc. etc. etc. No one knows who they are precisely because they never got a chance to display their talents.

Not to mention pitchers like Sandy Koufax, who was cooked at age 30. Which takes the conversation in a different direction: for Koufax, was it worth it? World Titles, Cy Youngs, etc.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on May 29, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Serious question: Is there enough empirical evidence out there to allow Future Ex-Prospect Smith to bring a negligence lawsuit against the Rangers for wrecking his career? I am guessing no, as the Rangers’ insurance company probably would have prevented Ryan’s diktat otherwise. Unless lawsuits like that are prohibited by the CBA.

by taco pal on May 29, 2009 11:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It would be an interesting case if only because of the draft and the reserve clause, which all but lock you into a team’s development system that is somewhere on the spectrum of being good at player development.

On the one hand, it would be hard to prove any malicious intent—all/most of the incentives are to win, players are valuable properties/investments (increasingly so), and so the damage accrues to the organization bad at doing this, albeit not to the same proportionate risk as the pitcher.

On the other hand, there is precedent for not following the draft (hi, J.D. Drew), there are outlets for baseball in unaffiliated leagues and other countries.

by Wet Luzinski on May 29, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even some of the most vociferous defenders of pitch counts (Baseball Prospectus, etc) concede that the concept probably has been taken too far. But the real takeaway I suspect is that a one-size-fits-all approach, whether it’s strictly limiting workloads or declaring that anyone who throws fewer than 130 a start is a big wuss, can’t be ideal.

My guess is that Nolan Ryan’s methodology will create a few workhorses and blow out a bunch of arms. Whether the Rangers come out ahead or behind overall, I can’t predict.

by dajafi on May 29, 2009 11:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree that it’s difficult to predict whether or not the Rangers will come out ahead. But it’s worth noting that there’s also a basic ethical question here. Even if you come out a little ahead, is it worth the cost of depriving a bunch of guys of the ability to make a career doing what they want to do.

by taco pal on May 29, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the other side, they’re paid by the rangers organization to perform the tasks the rangers organization assigns to them, are they not? Since the evidence is murky at best there’s no guarantee this helps or hurts the long term success of the rangers or their pitchers

"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."

Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.

by jemagee on May 29, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I want to know what puts a pitcher at greater risk, throwing too many pitches or having unsound mechanics. It seems like a lot of the pitchers we normally understand as having been ridden into the ground by people like Dusty Baker (i.e. Wood and Prior) with absurdly high pitch counts also had serious underlying mechanical flaws. Perhaps the combination of bad mechanics and overuse resulted in both pitchers’ rapid declines.

by FuquaManuel on May 29, 2009 12:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This is a good point. But my thought was: okay, so let’s get off the “bourgeoise” pitch counts and standardize on mechanics like Linceceum’s and Ryan’s, etc. What else is missed? Knuckleballers, sidearmers, submarine pitchers, perhaps with non-standard deliveries. Yet in each category you will find examples of long careers, high effective ones too (Tekulve, Quisenberry, Niekro). At this point, we will have met the new boss, and found him same as the old boss.

by Wet Luzinski on May 29, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or perhaps the solution is to realize that each pitcher is slightly different, be it mechanics, make up, prone to injury, whatever, and a smart organization will take a little extra time to learn about that pitcher and what they cna and can not do before putting them all in the same box.

One ‘standard’ is asinine to begin with

"Someone created the box score," Morey says, "and he should be shot."

Blocked shots — they look great, but unless you secure the ball afterward, you haven’t helped your team all that much.

by jemagee on May 29, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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