6-11-09 Mets highlights from Amazin' Avenue game thread
At Amazin' Avenue, I lurked to see how the other half lives. It was sort of a bit of undercover anthropological field work. I learned that Mets fans are pretty much just like us, with a couple small differences. I think there is a large base of mutually shared frustrations that can serve as common ground to bring our disparate cultures together into a warm, glowing one-ness. Some choice bits are below the cut, along with some obeservations from me.
"they’re doing what they’re supposed to. i hate them too, but they made the right moves in the off-season, have a smart manager, and have a talented core.hate the people that cause your team with an even more talented core to lose to these guys every year."
Smart manager? Wait...there's more:
"Charlie Manuel isn't exactly a genius He’s just much better than our subnormal counterpart"
"He stays out of the way which is all you can ask from your mgr. Just let the fucking players play."
I pretty much have the same take on Charlie -- He doesn't try to do too much and is, therefore, relatively effective. Smart manager? Well, let's not get crazy.
"As someone who loves baseball, It also kills me to know we are being horribly, horribly managed and run as a whole, and the Phillies aren’t. I can’t even throw it up to luck or some other bullshit. The Phillies are just run better. I mean, look who is leading off for us right now. I’m in a serious state of depression."
Sounds like me, circa 2006 re: the Phillies. Also, has he noticed J-Roll leading off? The Beard is still on the Phillies' major league roster. It's nice to know that there are folks that think the Phillies are well-run. I can't agree 100%, but have we Phillies fans been (can it really be?) spoiled by success over the last two [playoff] years (and other recent "close" years)? It has been a good run, possibly one of the best in Phillies history, as mentioned at TGP recently. Could this actually be a well-run team? Is our collective Philly neurosis and insecurity preventing us from really and truly accepting this?
In any case, Mets fans are not so different from us. They hate their manager's stupid moves about as much as we hate it when Cholly keeps having Rollins lead off or repeatedly lets Lidge close and fail before Lidge went on the DL or subbing the Beard for the Bat last year. They hate bunts. They hate over-managing and the diminished results it produces. They despise mediocre players being put back on the field over and over.
Lesson learned? Mets fans are people, too. Just more evil and morally repugnant than those in our tribe. And they are all baby rapers, too. But they are people. Kumbaya, people.
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Comments
This is great. I would suggest frontpage status for this one.
Funny how he thinks their core is more talented than ours. I would say it is equal at worst…more likely that our core guys have the slight edge. But with Rollins putting on a third-of-the-season-long suck clinic, its hard to say.
Done. Good call, FM.
I agree that their core is more talented than ours, though it’s very close. Santana > Hamels (on consistency grounds, mostly, and it’s not like there are even four others MLB starters I’d definitely take over Cole), and otherwise it’s probably about even: Utley/Wright, Reyes/Rollins, Beltran/Howard, KRod/Lidge are all pretty close if you view the comps through the lens of the last 2-3 years. But Ibanez >> Delgado in terms of 37 year old sluggers, and our second-tier guys—Werth, Victorino, Madson, Myers (since I included injured Mets above), Romero, and (this year at least) Feliz and Ruiz—are pretty clearly better than Castillo, Tatis, Murphy, Church, Feliciano, et al. And our third-tier cast (Stairs, Dobbs, Condrey, Eyre, etc) are basically solid or better, while theirs are pretty bad. It probably evens out again at the very bottom of the two rosters, where dreck like Bruntlett and Taschner and (ugh) Bako sit for us and they have guys like Takahashi.
Yeah. I guess you are right about their core being better than ours. For some reason when I hear “core” I think “homegrown stars” and not “good players locked up in multi-year deals.” Without a doubt, our current homegrown talent is significantly better than that of the Mets. Kind of analogous to the situation between the Red Sox and Yankees with the Yanks having a core of primarily FA’s developed by other systems and the Red Sox having a larger young core of talent developed in their own system.
by FuquaManuel on Jun 12, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
If you read the Mets “core” as Beltran, Wright, Reyes, and Santana, then you’re 50% homegrown.
Phillies (Rollins, Howard, Utley, Hamels), it’s 100%. One more thing to take some pride in.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jun 12, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Rollins is well on his way from being banished from this season’s core and replaced by Ibanez.
by FuquaManuel on Jun 12, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I always go and read the comment threads over at AA after a Mets’ loss. I was amused by the comments you highlighted above and thought about our reactions to similar managerial decisions. I think you hit it on the head there. Great post.
The Sports Wilderness - Sports With An Enemies List!
by WanderingMoses on Jun 11, 2009 11:20 PM EDT reply actions
Well run
I think it’s hard to argue that the Phils aren’t well run.
They’ve got 2 MVPs who came through the system. The core of the team is homegrown. They’ve been consistently good for several years now. They’ve made shrewd free agent signings and some good(in one case great) trades.
And of course, the ultimate affirmation that you’re well run… They won the world F-ing series.
For the past few years, they’re well run.
Managers
One thing I have noticed is that, sometimes the Phillies win in spite of Charlie..
by fan since late 40's on Jun 12, 2009 12:18 AM EDT reply actions
You picked a hell of a night for a visit
I mean, our Manuel: continued his unhealthy obsession with bunting in any and all situations; again batted our hottest hitter/OBP machine fifth to basically guarantee that he would lead-off the 2d, 4th and 6th innings in front of our black hole of a lower-order; Omir Santos; and went to non-LOOGY Ken Takahashi to take on your left-handed batting core. So many reasons for us to vent.
“Baby rapers”, tho? I mean, she told me she was 18.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jun 12, 2009 11:20 AM EDT reply actions
yeah
Hitting Sheffield in front of Wright was a head-scratcher for me. For that matter, his being so dogmatic on the platoons—keeping some of his better hitters on the bench—struck me as something I’d be pissed about as a Mets fan. Is Murphy just useless against lefties? And even if he is, how will that change if he doesn’t get ABs against them? I guess you could use the same argument for Takahashi against lefties… but damn, not the three lefties he was brought in to face, given his numbers this season. Not a strong night for Jerry Manuel.
I live in Brooklyn and watch a lot of Mets games, and I thought he did a pretty solid job last year. But they need a more imaginative hand at the wheel, and probably a stronger personality—some of the stuff your guys say to the press (Beltran in particular) would never be tolerated on the Phillies.
I think the talent has outlplayed their manager
It seems that maybe it’s somewhat the same with you guys, except that C. Manuel now sort of stays out of the way? I don’t see enough Philly games to know, obviously, but that is my impression of the games I’ve seen this year.
Sheffield hitting fourth is odd. Not sure if it is deference to who he used to be or what, but it boggles the mind a bit. Murphy has opposite platoon splits going back to his minor league days, and it is odd that he is sitting so much against lefties when he was sold all off-season as the future of something, be it LF or second base or first or whatever. Ken Tak is certainly not as bad against LHBs as the current splits indicate, but I’d rather see him in lower leverage situations for the time being. We’re still trying to figure out what Brian Stokes did to anger J. Manuel; he’s had basically one bad relief outing all year and can’t seem to buy a game.
My personal speculation is that Jerry will lose the team before the end of this season, and lose the job because of it. Beltran’s problem is that the NY media hates everything he does; if he doesn’t talk, it shows he’s not a leader and he doesn’t care. If he talks, it is over the top and out of line. It drives most of us nuts.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jun 12, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
The Beltran thing really reminds me of the Bobby Abreu situation here in Philly during his time here. It was really a “damned if you do,…” thing with Bobby, and it seems that way with Carlos, too.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jun 12, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
I think you may have made a similar comment over at AA earlier this week? The treatment some of these guys get from the media and, sadly, a fairly large segment of the fanbase is just ridiculous.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jun 12, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
If the NYC media wants to run Beltran out of town, I'd like to
offer him Jayson Werth’s outfield spot right now.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 12, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Throw in Vic Torino
and I imagine the “personalities” at WFAN would be happy to accept.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jun 12, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
If Albert Pujols is the consensus best player in baseball (obviously), Beltran and Utley are my 2a. and 2b. (with Joe Mauer getting awfully close to 2c. status).
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jun 12, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably they’d be better off ditching Minaya than Jerry M. Omar fooled me, as I’m sure he fooled a lot of people, into thinking he was a good GM with the moves he made before 2006, particularly Benson for Maine. And he’s made a few good deals since then—the Santana trade was a masterpiece, even if its accomplishment was more reading tea leaves than anything else. But the Mets just seem to get so little from the last 10-12 spots on their roster, and that’s overwhelmingly on the GM. Add in that the farm system seems fairly lame, and I think his tenure has been a failure by and large.
Over at AA
I think we’ve pretty much settled on Minaya as being a great example of the Peter Principle in action. He has proved fairly adept at making trades, international scouting and, to some extent, drafting. He has not proved adept at free agency or multi-tasking. This off-season, for example, he did a good job of re-stocking the bullpen but failed to shore up much of anything else. The minors actually seem to be decently stocked, but at the lower levels. Buffalo, unfortunately, is basically Jon Niese pitching in front of a cast of AAAA wanna-bes and never-weres.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jun 13, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt fans of any team often credit many wins to the manager. But I’m confident that Charlie is one of the best—even as I disagree with this or that move he makes probably a few times a week.
Look at the record, first of all—this year, over his whole tenure with the Phils, for that matter over his entire managerial career. He’s never had a full-season sub-.500 mark in the majors, and he was pretty damn good in the minors just to get a big-league managing gig. Then look at the performance of players before and after they get to the Phils; other than a few guys signed by Wade, Gillick or Amaro after career years (the Nunez/Helms types), most have improved. Finally, production from pinch-hitters and relievers—the actual in-game strategic decisions—suggests he’s had something on the ball the last 2-3 years, certainly.
I’ve written here before that I think Charlie Manuel is the best manager in Phillies history. That happens to be faint praise—otherwise it’s Gene Mauch, the recently deceased Danny Ozark, or I guess Eddie Sawyer, none of whom are exactly in the Casey Stengel class—but maybe a better way to think about it is this: are there five managers in baseball today you’d rather have running this team?
Absolutely not
Cholly. Sentimentally and because we won last year, I don’t think there’s even one. Realistically, though, maybe Torre, maybe LaRussa (despite being a ginourmous tool and horribly unlikable, he knows what he’s doing) and I like Tito and Joe Maddon (although I can’t say that I’d want them over Charlie).
There was an interesting (well interesting for the ESPN Sunday Night crew anyway) conversation during the Dodgers-Phils game on Sunday about the similarities in managerial style between Torre and Manuel. They said both could manage the other’s team and get similar results.
"It was almost like if Harry didn't call it, it wasn't real." - Jayson Stark
by Chris Haines on Jun 12, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd
When I saw the title of the post I’d figured it would be another cliched mockery/fueling of a often irrational hatred between fanbases, but I’m happy to be completely off base. Nice write up and feel free to join in the discussion next rather than lurk.
























