Phillies offer Donald, Carrasco and others to Blue Jays.

There's quite a gulf between Carlos Carrasco and Jason Donald + vs. Dominic Brown, Kyle Drabek, and J.A. Happ.

Setting a low floor can be a good negotiating tactic unless you insult or annoy the other party so badly that they withdraw from negotiations.

over 2 years ago WholeCamels 33 comments 0 recs |

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that’s an offensively low floor, IMO

by phils11 on Jul 26, 2009 11:22 AM EDT reply actions

Good tactic

There’s no way we should give up Happ AND Drabek in the same deal if we don’t have to. The way it seems, we’re just bidding against ourselves at this point. The Dodgers are out, the Angels best offer wasn’t good enough, and I just don’t see the Jays trading him to the Yankees or the Sox. Granted, it’s risky, going as low as this reported offer. But the Jays obviously asked for WAY TOO MUCH on their end. Ruben just returned the favor on the opposite side of the spectrum.

by mrf510 on Jul 26, 2009 11:25 AM EDT reply actions

See, I don’t think the Jays asked for “way too much” initially. Theirs was a more than reasonable starting point, and it’s honestly not that far off of what we can afford to pull the trigger on. I just hope Ricciardi doesn’t view our Carrasco/Donald offer as insulting.

by PhillyFriar on Jul 26, 2009 12:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

If they meet somewhere between those two offers, I’ll be very happy. But I do think there’s some risk of JP saying GTFOOH…

by dajafi on Jul 26, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions

Just get a deal done. If we end up not getting Halladay I will be very pissed off.

by BreckBirds20 on Jul 26, 2009 12:00 PM EDT reply actions

Let’s hope the phillies ignore this opinioi

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Jul 26, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions

rejected!

Blue Jays apparently rejected an offer of Happ/Carrasco/Taylor/Donald, per Jayson Stark.

I can see why; that’s not enough. But I do think that’s well above the “insult threshold” we’re worried about.

Drabek/Happ/Taylor/Donald, maybe? I think I could live with that.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Jul 26, 2009 12:15 PM EDT reply actions

I’d live with that. I wouldn’t be thrilled about it, and I’d want a second piece coming back—Scutaro or Tallet or someone like that—but we’d still have Brown and Knapp and Marson, plus the ace.

by dajafi on Jul 26, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions

It might eventually go there.

The phils could still add Brown back instead of Taylor. Add one more prospect (a catcher perhaps). Wait a little and hope JRP gets scared, and realizes that’s the best he’ll get. Or give Drabek.

by FredEx on Jul 26, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions

I don’t think the Phils are willing to give up both Happ and Drabek. And no way the Phils are giving up their top 2 prospects + a #3-4 starter. I actually think that’s a fine offer from the Phils. Taylor isn’t much of a drop off from Brown (Taylor might not have the ceiling, but he is definitely not a scrub and he’s more proven). They wanted Happ. It’s just Carrasco/Donald instead of Drabek, so the Phils offset the drop from Drabek to Carrasco with Donald. All of those players could be in bigs this year or next.

I think the Phils could throw in someone like Marson or D’Arnaud. I also think Ricciardi is dreaming if he thinks he is going to get anything close to Happ/Carrasco/Taylor/Donald from any other team, let alone Happ/Drabek/Brown. Also consider Halladay stated that he is going to test free agency, meaning an extension is unlikely (and that Ricciardi is refusing to let any team negotiate an extension). If Ricciardi doesn’t get this done in the next week, he is going to get a lot less than what the Phils offered.

And for everyone thinking Halladay will give the Phils 2 more WS rings, there is zero guarantee. For one, the post-season is short, Halladay gets 6 starts at most (more like 4-5). Halladay is completely unproven in postseason play. He’s never been there. Though I doubt it, he could turn out to be like CC. Point is, no one knows. Or, he could pitch lights out and the Phils still lose because Lidge or someone else blows a lead or tie. He could blow out his arm in a month or next year. Don’t get me wrong, I think the Phils should make this deal. I just don’t think they should give up the farm like a Bedard or Colon trade.

by The R on Jul 26, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Jayson Stark is reporting that the Jays turned down the Phils offer of Happ, Carrasco, Donald, and Taylor.

Now this is where the negotiating really begins. I’m getting more and more confident that Ruben and JP will find a common middle ground in between the offer and the counteroffer.

by mrf510 on Jul 26, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions

That counter offer is definately in the ballpark. As long as both GMs are a bit flexible this deal will get done by Tuesday. I imagine the Jays will request that either Taylor be switched for Brown, or more likely that Carrasco be switched for Drabek.

by cnagy77 on Jul 26, 2009 1:25 PM EDT reply actions

I don't know...

… I’m very wary of something like this happening again.

Don’t get me wrong; Halladay would be a great addition here. But the fact is that we would still need a righty off the bench, and we would still need another reliever in the bullpen. If we do a trade like this, we give up a potential future star in Drabek AND we send off some of our better prospects for ONE GUY. If this goes through, who do we trade for a right-handed bat and/or a reliever?

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jul 26, 2009 1:54 PM EDT reply actions

Bobby Abreu for Kevin Stocker

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Jul 26, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions

But that’s the thing: the Phillies can afford to do the Halladay deal precisely because they have prospect depth. There will be guys left over to deal for another piece or two — maybe not a high-end guy like Chad Qualls, but a useful player of some sort.

And here’s the thing with trading for Halladay: he’s the best pitcher in baseball. You’re not surrendering good prospects for a rental, or for mid-rotation guy.

by PhillyFriar on Jul 26, 2009 2:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

"You’re not surrendering good prospects for a rental, or for mid-rotation guy."

Or Ivan DeJesus

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Jul 26, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions

The thing with Halladay too is he'll resign

The reason he won’t resign in Toronto is we’ll probably have to rebuild again

by suitup17 on Jul 26, 2009 2:40 PM EDT reply actions

And they’ve put him through this nonsense for the past month.

Bleeding Green Nation - Philadelphia Eagles Blog

by JasonB on Jul 26, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions

If Tonroto keeps him and then offers him the biggest extension then I’m betting it won’t matter a whit ‘what they’ve put him through’ this past month. He’ll ‘resign’ with the Blue Jays if they offer the most money

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Jul 26, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions

It's not about the money at all

This isn’t anything about a big payday, it’s about winning. Sure, he’ll get paid well, but he’s taken home town discounts from us in return for a winning team. We haven’t been able to provide that for him, so in return he’ll test free agency if he isn’t traded. You guys would have an excellent chance at resigning him, I’d say at least 80%. He’s a guy that works his ass off every game and he just wants a chance to go to the playoffs and go to the big show. If you guys get him in this trade, you will have every Blue Jay fan routing you on because we all want the best for Halladay. Not to mention all of the great community work he’ll bring to the table, along with his wife.

by suitup17 on Jul 26, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Halladay ask out?

Since he’d be traded in the middle of a multi-year contract, can’t Halladay seek free agency this off-season, not just wait until next?

by David S. Cohen on Jul 26, 2009 2:50 PM EDT reply actions

He can demand a trade, but that’s really unlikely. Javier Vazquez with Arizona is the only recent example IIRC.

by dajafi on Jul 26, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes, he could. Seems unlikely since the economy will probably be much stronger after 2010 than after this year. But it’s possible. I think it’s likelier than the possibility that Halladay would sign an extension with us. Why would he do that when he could be the top FA on the market after 2010, which would be his last chance to play the market.

by taco pal on Jul 26, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions

I’m not sure Halladay is that motivated by money, considering he sign for 3/$40m prior to 2008.

by phatj on Jul 26, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Exactly

The guy hasn’t been to the playoffs in his career and just wants the chance to get there. If you guys have a solid team that he believes in, he’ll definitely resign. In Toronto, he was embarrassed about making more money then Burnett. Then of course he got paid. Halladay is not like that and is a class act.

by suitup17 on Jul 26, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Whatever, this is total speculation. Maybe he will, maybe he won’t, but unless you’re Halladay’s agent or a mindreader, don’t go around trying to pass off unsupported assertions as if they were facts.

by taco pal on Jul 26, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions

2009 free agent

But if he hits the free agent market in 2009, that’s one year earlier to get a big payday that is guaranteed for another 4 or 5 years. If he waits, he risks an injury in 2010 that could affect his payout next winter. He’s 32, not 27. Regardless of whether he’s a saint or not, I’d think it’s a pretty good bet on his part to get out of this contract and go for another one sooner rather than later.

by David S. Cohen on Jul 26, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions

How am I mindreading?

I’m stating that in the right situation he’ll resign, simple as that.

by suitup17 on Jul 26, 2009 4:25 PM EDT reply actions

Why would he quit playing baseball?

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Jul 26, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions

re-sign sorry

by suitup17 on Jul 26, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions

The way I see it, JP has one of two choices: he can either trade Doc now at his maximum value and get the best deal possible or he can handle this like Bill Smith handled the Johan Santana situation: he can wait a year too late and get half value in return. He knows it and Ruben knows it, so why overpay if you don’t have to?

by mrf510 on Jul 26, 2009 6:09 PM EDT reply actions

Honestly...

I think Halladay has the Phillies on a short list of teams he is willing to go to and has promised JP he won’t say anything to undermine him negotiations. We are watching poker here and we see that the Phils have an AQ while Riccardi has a 8-10 off suit, but he goes all in and the Phils are afraid that they are dominated even though the odds are WAY in their favor.

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Jul 26, 2009 8:57 PM EDT reply actions