DEAL: Phillies acquire LHP Cliff Lee
by dajafi on Jul 29, 2009 2:00 PM EDT
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PrintFor RHPs Carlos Carrasco (AAA) and Jason Knapp (A), shortstop Jason Donald (AAA) and C Lou Marson (AAA). OF Ben Francisco also coming to the Phils.
Multiple sources now reporting, including Zolecki.
Lee was the 2008 AL Cy Young Award winner, going 22-3 with a 2.54 ERA. He's 7-9 this year, with a 3.14 ERA, and leads the AL with 152 innings pitched.
So much to like about this deal--for one thing, Lee's durability should protect the Phillies' hard-worked and injury-depleted bullpen from overexposure down the stretch, keeping them fresh for October. For another, he's going to be something like the third or fourth highest-paid pitcher on next year's team.
Francisco is a 27 year-old corner outfielder who likely will replace John Mayberry Jr. as a late-inning sub and right-handed bat off the bench. For this season, he's hitting .269/.383/.463 against lefties; that patience should fit in nicely with the Phils' offensive approach.
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"Halladay Clone"
They also said Bastardo was a Johan clone. You can’t go off that.
Yeah, but Knapps clearly better than Bastardo
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Aside from the fact Knapps never pitched above A ball – sure
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok Phils fans say hello to your new OF stub Ben Francisco
Oh, and some bum name Cliff Lee too. Not sure I love this trade, but ok.
Donald and Marson blow but Carrasco could figure it out and be pretty good, and then theres Knapp. Heres hoping that all those guys knew what they were talking about when TINSTAPP was created!
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
We did give up some heavy prospects for a pitcher some consider to be a 1 yr wonder.
But I still love the deal.
Way too many lefties on this staff though, but GREAT Trade.
Bleed green, or don't bleed at all!
His numbers this year are pretty good too
League Leaders – 2009
• Ranks 2nd in AL in L (9) • Ranks 1st in AL in IP (152.0)
• Ranks 11th in AL in SO (107) • Ranks 7th in AL in ERA (3.14)
• Ranks 3rd in AL in CG (3)
Well, except being 2nd in losses. But that’s obviously a result of terrible run support. And his numbers will get better coming over to the NL.
Ok – is there anyone with any sort of credibilty who calls him a one year wonder – or just folks who look at win loss records?
Check out his run support from the indians – that should change
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, not so worried about the W-L record myself. Was it you who asked about the 2007 problems and i sent the link about consistanett approach?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a beautiful trade
Very happy. Can’t wait to see him pitch on Saturday.
Great trade for the Phillies! I’m a Red Sox fan but I was born in Philly, my father is a big Philly fan and thus they are my NL team. I was hoping they would get a good SP, seemed like the only obvious hole you had. This makes you (if you weren’t already) the team to beat in the NL. Though personally I was hoping you’d get Halladay and get him out of the AL East.
You guys should be arrested for theft, great trade!
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
This is such a better deal
He’s younger than Halladay and costs less in both the trade and contract.
Giving up 4 of our top 10 prospects is a big deal but it’s better than what was being talked about in the Halladay deal.
Jim Johnson 1941-2009
"The 0-2 pitch, swing and a miss! STRUCK HIM OUT! The Philadelphia Phillies are 2008 World Champions of baseball! And let the city celebrate! " - Harry Kalas 1936-2009
very nice!
since we didn’t trade happ, drabek, or brown, should we still get halladay too? lol!
1)hamels
2)halladay
3)lee
4)blanton
5)happ
now THAT’S a rotation!!!
You included Happ in your rotation… just thought Id mention it.
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
haha
not going to happen .. too much salary .. and not going to give away the whole farm.. and hamels would not be the one on that team .. prob the 3 .. 2 at best
by jack is better than asante on Jul 29, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
too much salary
if we get halladay, we’ll sell out every game, nationals game attendence will triple
by sports00fan00 on Jul 29, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
doesnt matter
our payroll is already too high lol .. we lose meyers eaton and jenkins … but our current players salaries go up .. and you have arbitration case looming with victorino .. and then add halladay and lee .. we would be at 150 million ..
by jack is better than asante on Jul 29, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
i consider this a steal
we keep drebek and happ and our two outfielders and still get a cy young winner, gotta love that.
I don’t know if its a steal. Knapp is considered the #2 pitching prospect behind Drabek, and was in the “untouchable” category. But the other guys were definitely available and replaceable.
I think including Franscisco made this a fair deal. The Phils killed took care of their 2 big needs in one move. And saved salary over a Halladay trade.
The only thing I worry about now is all the lefty’s in the rotation.
I like a team which doesn't rest on its laurels
“Win TODAY and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow” (paraphrase) – Earl Weaver
That’s a stupid quote. The beauty of this trade is that we did worry about tomorrow, by keeping our top three prospects.
by taco pal on Jul 29, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s an out of context quote as i’m told :)
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
both
both is not possible .. and we are not giving up drabek .. so unless they take brown and happ for him its not happening .. plus the salary wont work
by jack is better than asante on Jul 29, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Try and keep up ok -
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Helluva time to lose power in the office! Thank you steve jobs for my iPhone!
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jul 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
happ
idc about keeping happ // keeping taylor brown and drabek .. wow .. and saveryt as well.. savery isnt great .. but projects as a starter .. maybe a 3 .. thats about wha carrasco will be
by jack is better than asante on Jul 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT reply actions
i’ve been wathcing espn and they haven’t reported this yet… i guess they’re too focused on brett favre.
Does this trade involve the red sox or yankees?
Are there steroids involved?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
espn
espn is not that bad at all
by jack is better than asante on Jul 29, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, not surprising
ESPN has reported via text that the trade is done
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Spot on about ESPN......
I was constantly refreshing FOX Sports, ESPN, NBC’s Circling the Bases, and of course this blog and ESPN was the last of all of them to confirm. The only plausible excuse is they want to be %110 sure it is true. However they have Jayson Stark who of course has former (and probably still) ties with Philadelphia so there really isn’t any excuse. That’s what I get for relying too much on MSM though.
Hmm…reconsidering my MLB Extra innings boycott ghis year
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:19 PM EDT reply actions
Detroit comes to mind…the dakotas – any city there – montana, idaho, i can think of a lot of places in the middle of fracking nowhere worse than even st louis
Or even pittsburgh
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I just mean MLB towns. Pittsburgh has made a comeback lately. I think it’s now underrated. Detroit is a good call though.
I wouldn’t want to live in Oakland, or any of texas, period…florida kind of sucks too
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Florida sucks? I STRONGLY disagree with you on that one.
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with jemagee my girlfriend lived in Clearwater and the only time Florida didn’t suck was during spring training. And even then it still kind of sucked.
Jim Johnson 1941-2009
"The 0-2 pitch, swing and a miss! STRUCK HIM OUT! The Philadelphia Phillies are 2008 World Champions of baseball! And let the city celebrate! " - Harry Kalas 1936-2009
I agree, Pittsburgh is underrated. I was there for a Phils/Pirates game a few years ago and really liked it.
That ballpark is fantastic… Favorite MLB park I’ve visited.
Well as a town, i’m not sure it’s the kind of place i’d enjoy spending 6 months out of the year…and milwaukee may have a nice park – but it’s basically a poor suburb of chicago
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree as well
Pittsburgh is in fact very picturesque. The view of the skyline from Mt. Washington is unreal. Very nice semi-suburban towns too.
It still has a weird odor though.
by myrestingpulse_121bpm on Jul 29, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I like it
Picked up a great arm and right-handed bat and still have our top 3 prospects. Would’ve liked to keep Marson, but we’ll make do.
He’s better than any right handed bat or back up outfielder the phils currently have
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
He was always billed to have 20-20 potential, but hes never showed it and has been very inconsistant so far this year.
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Cleveland
The Tribe have long been among my favorite non-Phils teams, so that’s another reason to hope our former prospects pan out there.
I’m unclear on why they picked up Marson, given that they have Victor Martinez, Kelly Shoppach and Carlos Santana—respectively a top catcher, a great backup and a stud prospect—but maybe they want to make like the Rangers and semi-corner the market.
Knapp has all the makings of a future star—though he’s a long way off—and Carrasco might turn out to be a great buy-low move on Shapiro’s part.
But any deal in which we kept Drabek or Brown and got an ace was going to be okay with me. That we still have both—plus Taylor, plus D’Arnaud, plus May—is a HUGE win.
Great job Amaro, you smug sonuvagun.
Yeah, I’m really not sure about this as both an Indians and Phillies fan (from Cleveland but live in Philly now). On one hand Lee really has been great the past two years & I’m really looking forward to having him on the Phillies. On the other hand, I don’t understand this trade from a Cleveland persepective at all. Knapp sounds like a possible winner but he’s 3-4 years away, and it seems like they actually bought low on all the other guys.. why buy low when you’re trading the reigning Cy Young winner?
*sigh*
I guess buying low isn’t really the phrase that I meant there, because you’re right.. but I mean, it seems like Donald & Carrasco have both been somewhat disappointing this year, so I’m not sure how the Phils still managed to include them as the centerpieces of this trade.
*sigh*
Hate to break it to you, but I dont think your really buying low on Donald, what you see is what you get in my opinion. Carrasco could easily turn it around in a big way though.
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Big fastball, quickly developing secondary stuff. A year from now he could look like as good a prospect as Knapp.
Sounds like hes better than Knapp. Roughly the same age, both have good fastballs, but Knapps got nothing besides the heat. If what you say about his other pitches is true, then this guys closer to the bigs than Knapp.
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Knapp’s secondary pitches reportedly have shown dramatic improvement this year. And as tp says, he sits mid/high 90s; May I think sits 92 or so. More than fast enough to get it done, but the guy who can touch triple digits has a bit more margin for error.
meh a 95-96 mph fastball and a 92 mph fastball isnt all that much different. Id take a 92 with good movement over a straight moving 97.
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Tribe fans are losing their minds over this. They think they got fleeced, but mostly because they don’t know much about the prospects.
Although the fact that they got none of the names the Jays wanted for Halladay must be disappointing.
I dunno, I’m inclined to agree that they got fleeced. I like Knapp’s potential, but I have NO IDEA what Shapiro wants with Donald & Marson.
*sigh*
It could mean that VMart is peacing Cleveland too.
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Riccardi isn’t a dope just yet – he’s still got a couple days – but after friday his leverage drops precipitously.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 2:53 PM EDT reply actions
Whatever leverage is left. Now, the Red Sox are the only team thats really in a position to get Halladay, and we just set the bar fairly low in terms of prospects so…
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
So many lefty's
Blanton is now the most important piece on the Phils staff.
Why?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Blanton
of course being the most reliable righty
No I am aware that there are more lefties than righties in our rotation. I was wondering why The R (or anyone else) thinks that’s a huge deal.
Because opposing teams that have right-heavy lineups are a bad matchup for the Phils. Well, maybe not bad, but worse. Having a left heavy rotation allows opposing teams to stack a lineup for a 3 game series. Having said that, I don’t really know how Hamels or Lee’s do against rightys, so it might not matter. And it does give the Phils an advantage against left-heavy lineups.
Also, its a matter of hitters seeing the same pitching look over and over. At some point , a good hitter will get it. It’s kind of like why a good changeup is effective. The change of pace makes both the changeup and fastball better. Blanton is like a changeup for the rotation. He is made better by pitching between two leftys and he makes the lefty after him better.
It’s part of the reason Moyer can still be effective. If he pitches after a hard throwing righty, his stuff is harder to hit just because the hitters need to adjust to both the speed and the delivery. If Moyer pitches after Hamels or Lee, I suspect he is going to hit a lot more.
Hamels career numbers are better against LHB than RHB, and the difference for Lee is negligible. The Moyer argument I agree with, but because of the speed not handedness.
Has anyone looked at the numbers and come to a conclusion on whether there is a real impact of having a lefty/righty heavy staff? It seems like people go with the “truthiness” of the argument more than any sort of real evidence.
That said, it definitely makes sense that righty-heavy lineups would do better against a rotation of lefties, but at the same time a lefty-heavy lineup would do worse against a rotation of lefties, so I don’t see that as making as big an impact as people make it out to be.
I do think you’re right in that the lefty-righty thing is a bit of self-fulfilling thing, at least with hitters. They held Utley back for a while because he “couldn’t” hit lefty pitching. I think it was more that he needed to see more lefty pitching. As for pitching, there are overall stats, but I think its less of an issue than with hitters. And a top pitcher is going to get outs no matter which side they hit from.
As for overall staffs, ultimately it isn’t going to break a deal, as we saw with Lee. I think the management would like to have and tries to set up a balanced staff, for the reasons I mentioned. The Phils had one with Myers. And management also tries to set up a balanced lineup. Which is why a lot of people questioned the Ibanez pickup, and why Burrell was so important to the lineup in past years.
The overall stats show that the righty-lefty matchup is for real. Righty’s have an advantage against lefty’s and vice versa. But in terms of management, I’d say its a want, not a need. They consider it, but they aren’t going to disqualify a good player just because he unbalances a rotation or lineup. Ibanez and Lee are perfect examples. A player’s talent can override the lefty-righty matchup.
Still it could make for a tough pitching matchup against a right- heavy team. I don’t know the lineups of the current playoff contenders, so it might not matter. But if I remember correctly, last year, the Dodgers were considered the worst matchup for the Cubs just because the Cubs had a righty heavy lineup and the Dodgers had a right heavy pitching staff. And the Phils, with all the big lefty hitters, were the opposite against the Dodgers.
Having a righty/lefty balanced lineup is important in completely different ways than why you’re saying having a righty/lefty rotation is important.
Having a balanced lineup is imporant (most among other things) so specialist relievers can’t come in and get all your lefties (for example) out in a row without having to face a right handed bat (and either stay in at a disadvantage, or have to be pulled for a right handed pitcher).
There is a parallel in the bullpen, which can be seen in the importance of having a (somewhat) balanced bullpen.
There is no parallel of that for that supporting the case to have a righty/lefty balanced rotation.
I agree that a balanced lineup is more important vs. a balanced rotation for the reasons you said. But you still would like a balanced rotation for the exact same reasons. It might not be as big of a deal, but its still something you want.
If you’re looking for an example why, well I’m not willing to pore over stats for specific series examples, other than to say that the last time a WS champion had a 3 lefty rotation was in 1996. But you already basically agreed to the reasons. The same reason you want a balanced lineup is the same reason you want a balanced rotation. I tried explaining that already. It gives you a different look so batters can’t lock in for a series. It basically keeps an opposing team honest. It also keeps a team from stacking a lineup one way or the other (and, by the way, most teams will do that if they can, overriding the idea of having a balanced lineup to prevent specialist relievers from coming in). In fact, a balanced lineup might not be the best lineup in terms of matchups(from the hitting perspective). There might be players in there with bad splits, but they are in to balance the lineup. If a rotation is unbalanced, the opposing team can load up with players that hit one or the other well.
Finally, like I said, it might not matter at all. Lee and Hamels are studs. Any team would want them and will run them out there no matter how the opposing lineup is constructed. But I do think Blanton’s importance just got ratcheted up a lot. Just like Manual kept saying last year how important Myers was to the rotation. He wanted a balanced rotation and righty Myers in between Hamels and Moyer. Oh, and I read an article today where a NL scout said Lee and Hamels are pretty similar in style and delivery and suggested it would be a lot better if they didn’t pitch back to back.
For a post season, it’d probably be Hamels-Blanton-Lee-Moyer/Happ/Martinez/Lopez/Myers/whoever, where Lee and Hamels could flip spots.
in the playoffs its going to be a main rotation focused on Hamels, Lee and Blanton.. round one you will see Happ as well
WIP stated...
Riccardi called last minute before the offer was accepted and the Phils offered the same package plus JA Happ, and he said no
That he called or that the phillies said no – i would have said no – just to keep happ
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought
That we had offered the same package we gave to the Indians plus Happ — and that Riccardi said no. At least that’s what was being said in the prior threads…
Yes I read it wrong :)
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
So we offered him Happ/Knapp/Carrasco/Donald and Marson for Halladay and he said no? I cant really tell what Ant was trying to say since his post didnt really make much sence. I highly doubt that 1) Riccardi called last minute 2) The Phillies would offer and 3) Riccardi would reject that.
If its true that he did in fact reject that offer, the man should be fired on the spot.
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
no
if they can get bucholtz and bowden .. those 2 alone would be better than that 5 .. knapp is far away .. and carrasco is a question mark .. 5 doesnt necesarly trump 2 great prospects .. happ is not that good
by jack is better than asante on Jul 29, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
So – contrary to all the reports from the red sox themselves you choose to believe your own universe – that’s cool
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Moyer will stay... Pedro will bullpen with Myers
I feel like this rotation is great going into next year, I still have a feeling we will have Myers back next year for one year
Moyer is good….every other start. Is there a way to isolate his every other start that is bad and have Pedro pitch those starts for Moyer and by doing so saving him from his usual every other sub par or bad start?
by myrestingpulse_121bpm on Jul 29, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, considering the Phils could have the division locked up in a month, I suppose they could toy with the idea of going with a 6 or even 7 man rotation for awhile, if only to get the pitchers more rest for the post season.
And if the Phils do lock it up early, I definitely see shorter pitch counts/skipped starts in the future.
LOOOOOOOVE IT!!!
2 thoughts-
Can we still trade Happ/Brown/Drabek for Halladay? Halladay/Hamels/Lee/Blanton and who the f**k cares
Also, huge pull getting the right handed hitter off the bench in Fransisco. He mostly plays LF so he can give Raul some breaks down the stretch if we keep this lead.
yes
it deff would be idiotic .. you cant trade your whole farm system
by jack is better than asante on Jul 29, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
Must I mark my posts with (TIC) for tongue in cheek? Absolute joke. Thought it was funny we gave up nobody in the Halladay deal.
Good Point
Happ’s been lucky this year but Moyer has been terrible at times.
This trade is a steal, a no-brainer...
Consider that all the talk before the trade was that Cleveland would be looking for a Hallidayesque package, and the Phils retain Happ, Brown, and Drabek?!?!?
My hat is off to the front office. Not a bad rookie year when you consider the Ibanez deal. Now if Pedro can be productive, it’s just icing on the cake.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
by philly420pdxhilo on Jul 29, 2009 3:37 PM EDT reply actions
I can’t really form my opinion until I read what Steve PHilips has to say about it.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 3:40 PM EDT reply actions
Phillips
Said that the Indians got “four major league ready players.”
God I love Steve Phillips.
Shortly after he said they didn’t get any major league ready pitching talent…
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont think this trade is a steal. That said, I think it is a very good trade for the Phillies. They got two things they needed (right handed bat being a mild need) and didnt give up too many of their prospects.
However, for Cleveland, they get Marson who is a good catching prospect. Carrasco and Knapp are both high up side pitchers, so that is pretty decent. As far as we know, Knapp may be better than Drabek. Carrasco may correct some of his problems etc. Finally, Donald had good stats from last year, and had bad stats this year and then got injured. It isnt all that much of a stretch to think that Donald’s bad numbers were caused in part by the injury, and that he will recover and be good. Cleveland takes on quite a bit of risk in this deal, but that is basically always going to happen when you trade a guy for prospects.
This deal somewhat makes sense for Cleveland, and therefore is not a steal. On the other hand, though, I think the Phillies got the better of it, especially considering the fact that they have other prospects who are more valuable. The deal makes a lot of sense for the Phillies.
Great Deal
Catchers are easy to get, The very rare exception to no trade catching prospects is matt Wieters, and hes been so so this year. Carasco hasn’t proved anything and had a high era. knapp seems decent, but has a ling way to go! Jason Donald has been very good, but we have a very good ss in the bigs. I think this was maybe not a steal, but an awesome deal!
The little things in life are the BEST! My 19 month old pointed at the TV and said Baseball the other day out of nowhere when we were watching the Phils. Now every time a games on he says baseball! What a feeling! Gotta start em young!
"steal"
You don’t want to rape the other team so badly that potential trade partners hang up when you call.
Given the Indians’ parameters—needed pitchers, had to shed salary—this wasn’t an awful move by any stretch. They acquired two arms who could be #3s or better, one of whom is nearly ready. They now have a slew of viable catchers, and a player in Donald who at the least should be a plus utility guy. And they’re all basically free.
I love the trade for us. For them, I don’t love it—I’m really stunned they couldn’t pry Taylor loose, frankly—but it’s not awful.
Who currently plays second in cleveland?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
So not like they’re hugely blocking him at second (as opposed to utley) so they may value him more in their system than the phils would?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
True, but hes still not that good so…
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Steve Phillips is such a hoot
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 29, 2009 4:14 PM EDT reply actions
Btw, the HAPPiest man in Philadelphia may just be JA Happ.
For Who? My teammates.
For What? To Win.
How Much? Where do I sign?
From an Angels fan....
I just wanted to say NICE JOB! I think you guys got a steal.
JP Ricciardi can suck it!
Lol
Angles are the big winners here since the price for Halladay comes down. Hell Riccardi may just suck it and take your teams offer. Your welcome for making all this possible.
by philiafan14364 on Jul 29, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s true that Halladay’s price may come down because of this. I wonder if Amaro could have made a deal and told Clevland to hold off on it until the 31st. Yeah, I know they would never do that and probably is against the rules. Not that would stop most teams though.
For Who? My teammates.
For What? To Win.
How Much? Where do I sign?
My biggest concern are the Giants. They have two stoppers. Even with an anemic offense two stoppers can get you through a short series.
My other concern is that Lee has an awfully high opposition batting average to be pitching in CBP.
Lee does cement our grip on the NL east and counter the Braves Tim Hudson coming back.
Please tell me
You are 1) kidding about the Giants and 2) Hudson is going to save the Braves? You are stretching too far.
ok
im actually concered about the giants too .. lincecum and cain can put them up 2-0 in a series ..n hudson is at best the braves 5th starter .. he hasnt been great since the big three left oakland .. none of them have .. hudson was the only one who was decent after
by jack is better than asante on Jul 30, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure there were Brewers fans last year who just knew that CC Sabathia would give them two automatic wins per round in the playoffs. How’d that work out?
And if Brett Myers hadn’t worked that miracle walk, and Shane F’in Victorino hadn’t hit that grand slam, the postseason could have been very, very different last year.
Very weird things can happen in single games, or short playoff series.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jul 30, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Measuring a Deal
Measuring what is a better deal is relative.
If the goal is to add to your team while trying have a solid future the Lee deal is better. If the goal is to win now then getting Halladay would have been better.
I think that is very interesting that , on average, the baseball analysts, lean towards winning now while the baseball journalist, most of which never played the sport at any high level of competition, lean towards what future prospects you give up.
I think that is very interesting that , on average, the baseball analysts, lean towards winning now while the baseball journalist, most of which never played the sport at any high level of competition, lean towards what future prospects you give up.
This is a stupid, baseless assertion.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
it’s a unique use of the ‘you never played the game you’ll never understand’ argument that people resort to sometimes
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Jul 30, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Late, but I love this deal. Kudos to Amaro for holding on to the big 4 (Happ, Taylor, Brown, Drabek) and managing to get a decent right handed bench bat as well.
Ruben has really impressed me over these last few months.
happ
happ is not in the big 4 .. our top 5 would be brown drabek taylor gose and one of the other pitching prospects .. even savery .. happ is average
by jack is better than asante on Jul 30, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Excellent deal
I thought for the longest time we should be concentrating on Lee, but many posters on this board thought that Lee would actually require more than Halladay because Cleveland thought they could win next year.
There goes that theory.
I think Lee could really have an impact on our chances this year. And it sounds like he’s stoked to be coming to Philly. Excellent deal, I’m excited as hell for the next 3 months.
"Dig In....Hit Hard"
Trust me, Philly, you're gonna love Cliff Lee
I’ve been a Tribe fan for 45 years and Cliff is one of the smoothest pitchers I’ve seen. He is the real deal and really hitting his prime. Don’t pay attention to his W-L record this year. The Tribe gave him almost no run support, plus our jackass manager cost Cliff at least 2 or 3 games. (Long stories, don’t get me started! Wedge is a HORRIBLE manager!) I really think Cliff will end up with close to 20 wins this season now that you have him. He’s that good and your offense is incredible! Don’t worry about “prospects” you gave up even if they turn out to be good. We’ll end up having to trading them if they’re good cuz that’s what we do best! Trade away Cy Young winners, HOF hitters, etc. Cliff may be able to get you guys 20 wins every year with the run support the Phillies can give him (assuming you sign him).
If you think I’m kidding about Cliff or about our jackass organization (manager, GM & owner) check out the comments from irate Tribe fans over the trade! Most fans think we got screwed by our GM! http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/07/cliff_lee_ben_francisco_headed.html
Go Phillies! I always liked your team and now that you have Cliff and Benny, I’m an official convert!
Btw, if Benny Francisco would play every day, he’d hit .300 w/20+ HRs a year. Part-time play hurts his BA and power a little. But maybe Charlie or your hitting coach can get him to do that anyway. It could be our jackass manager and worthless hitting coach that hurt Benny’s rythm. (WEDGE SUCKS!) Benny’s a good base-stealer too!
The only bad thing Cliff may do is give up a solo HR now and then. Don’t worry about it, it’s not often. He’s a fly ball pitcher and hot humid weather sometimes turns a routine fly into a HR. Dunno how much you get that in your ballpark but really, don’t worry!Too bad you guys didn’t get Shoppach in the deal; he’s been Lee’s personal catcher. Shop can’t hit worth crap but he’s great at handling pitchers and calling games.
Okay, good luck! If Cliff is a little nervous in his debut cut him some slack, LOL! You’re gonna LOVE this trade! GO PHILLIES!
by There's_always_next_year on Jul 30, 2009 6:38 AM EDT reply actions
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