Uh, what?: Braves 4, Phillies 3
by WholeCamels on Aug 15, 2009 7:19 PM EDT
Email
PrintSo, yeah.
Where to begin?
1. Abject failure in hitting with runners in scoring position (1 for 12), including runners on 3rd with no outs failing to score.
2. The decision to use Brad Lidge, again, in a one run save situation.
3. The misplayed grounder by Chase Utley to lead off the bottom of the 9th inning.
4. Brad Lidge mishandling the bunt, and throwing the ball up the line, allowing the runner to score and putting the winning run on third with no outs.
5. The Braves non-failure to get the runners home from third with no outs.
More after the f***ing jump
Charlie, enough is enough. Wishing and hoping isn't going to make Brad Lidge effective again. The Phillies can't afford to let him "work it out" in one run games against division opponents. Either bench him, convince him that his knee is really, really bothering him, or let him pitch in mop-up duty. NO MORE CLOSE NINTH INNINGS. CHARLIE!!! LISTEN!!!! I know you're Mr. Loyalty, but your condition-free devotion to Brad Lidge as your closer is a betrayal to the other 24 guys on your roster. He got you there last year, but this is another season.
Oh, Jayson Werth home run, Raul Ibanez with two hits, Cole Hamels labors through six, etc. etc.
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I listened on and off on the radio depending on being in my car…but that first out at 3rd base kind of sucked too.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Aug 15, 2009 7:26 PM EDT reply actions
Hey guys, wunna see something funny? Click on ’danielmobo’s profile
cough*cough*Bravesfanposingasaphilsfan*cough*cough
by philiafan14364 on Aug 15, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, I just assumed since Im sure they have a nice Braves site on SBN, that all the Braves fans would, you know, be there and not here.
by philiafan14364 on Aug 15, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
No, apparently Braves fans don’t have anything better to do than to be on this site knocking us. Just check out this fan – justincredubil02 – he’s really having fun at the Phillies and our expense, complaining about the Bobby Cox comment article from earlier, complaining about us fans, saying the Braves should’ve won last night, y’know. I tell ya, I hate different teams – The New Jersey Devils, New York Mets, Atlanta Braves – but Braves fans are the only fans I truly hate.
Always put off today what can be put off tomorrow.
-Blkfire
well...
they had trouble. Back when they had playoff games. Now, who knows?
Seriously though, I despise the Braves more than any other non-Dallas Cowboys sports entity. They’re no-class losers top to bottom. As for the fans, no other group from SBN pretty much ever comes over here to troll… when Mets fans come, they’re almost always polite and (also unlike these Braves cretins) insightful.
Wow
You guys sound like my 6 year old. You really think not all teams have fans that do this? I’m sure had you won today and not got swept during our last meeting, us Braves fans wouldn’t be so intolerable.
But seriously though, I’m glad you let like 3 or 4 fans out of a few hundred thousand determine how you view a team and it’s fans as a whole.
Funny how the this comment proves what’s being said. You got something to say, be insightful, don’t come over blasting our fans. You weren’t singled out so what’s your problem. Braves fans have not just now, but have always been intolerable. As for my dislike of the Braves and fans, trust me, it’s not just 3 or 4 of you.
Always put off today what can be put off tomorrow.
-Blkfire
Ok, I’ll be insightful. EVERY team has “trolls”. Even the defending World Series Champions. And you may be right in saying that we have more than others. But there’s 2 big reasons for that. First, you’re a rival team. There’s gonna be a built in “hatred” for rivals which always brings out trolls. Second, Talking Chop is the premiere Braves blog site, at least from what I’ve been able to find. You go to many other teams SB sites and you’d be lucky to see 5 or 6 guys posting on a given day.
Braves fans aren’t any worse than any other team. If anything, they’re not passionate enough, as seen by the empty seats during playoff games. So which is it? Are we bad fans that don’t even care enough to support our team? Or are we crude fans that show too much passion and go blowing up the websites of opposing teams?
Going back to yesterday and the bashing that was produced because some of us questioned Whole Camels answers…I can only vouch for myself (even though I didn’t comment on it), but I would assume many felt the same way as I did and wondered why he would be almost downtalking what I consider one of the top 2 teams in the NL. But again, who cares. Nobody was out of line in anything being said on TC.
I’m not even gonna mention the parking lot death, because I realize that EVERY team has idiot fans. It’s not limited to the Atlanta Braves.
by Bobby Cocks on Aug 15, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
What problems do you have with Wholes answers? You guys asked 5 obvious questions, and Whole gave you the 5 obvious answers. Was it that you didnt like the fact that he took Lee over Javy? Thats like going up to someone in Philly and asking “Who would you rather have, Westbrook or Turner?” and expecting that everyone there takes Turner.
And where did he talk ‘downtalk’ the Braves? Im beggining to think you guys made up your own answers to those questions, and then got mad about your own made up answers.
“I’m not even gonna mention the parking lot death”… Really? Seems to me that you just did. If you want to know the story, here it is. Some dumb asses got into a bar fight. The combatants got kicked out of the bar, and the fight spilled over to the CBP parking lot, where one of them was killed. We dont even know if these people were Phillies fans. The only reason they were at the bar in the first place was for a bachlere party. Just because it happened in the CBP parking lot doesnt make them in anyway affiliated with the Phillies. Maybe if you did some actual research about the matter instead of just reading the headlines, youd have known that…
by philiafan14364 on Aug 16, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t say he was downtalking the Braves. I was saying some of us felt he was downtalking the Philles. Yes, see I actually consider the PHILLIES one of the top 2 teams in the NL.
And I don’t care what answers he gave. And I really don’t know why Braves fans thought he wasn’t being honest. It’s a ridiculous argument if you ask me.
And I’ve read all about the fight turned murder. Perhaps some of your fellow fans should also do some research on Bobby Cox and see that his wife denied any assault took place.
Downtalking the Phillies?
Thats like reverse racism. He was being too nice to you guys? Thats why you guys got mad?
by philiafan14364 on Aug 16, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know that anyone got mad. Like I said, it’s been a dumb argument. There are tons of other arguments that could be made instead, like whether or not Victorino is really a dirty player or if some of the Braves need to toughen up and just play ball instead of being “hurt” all of the time.
Why do you think Shanes a dirty player? (I dont think you would have brought it up if you didnt think there was at least a little bit of truth about it)
One thing that makes me shake my head and laugh is when people say Victorino was whinning about have beer thrown on him.
by philiafan14364 on Aug 16, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he is. I’ve just seen a lot of associations. I even asked for evidence and the only thing that could remotely be considered “dirty” or “foul play” would be the elbow to Jose Reyes, but that’s not nearly enough to label someone.
And Whole, it’s hard not to question a player when he’s throwing 95 mph with every fastball and then after blowing a couple of saves/ties he suddenly has a sore shoulder.
by Bobby Cocks on Aug 16, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
This whole beef started because a few TC readers were questioning my honest responses to a couple very loaded questions in the pre-series Q&A. I’m not interested in blindly talking up the Phillies when there’s really no way to back it up; there’s no rational way to justify Happ over Hanson, or the Phillies’ 2009 rotation over the Braves’. Objective analysis is the spirit of this blog. Then it was implied that I was a homer because I committed the heresy of saying I preferred Cy Young Award winner Cliff Lee over the erratic, albeit dominating THIS YEAR Javier Vazquez.
I went over there to address the issue(s) and explain myself, and that’s how the shitstorm started.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Look, I think it’s a stupid argument. I’m sure there are many objective people that would choose Lee over Vasquez. My only beef is many guys on here acting like Braves fans are the scum while at the same time bringing up Bobby Cox and his battery charge.
Yeah I honestly think it’s a point to stay away from given Brett Myers’ history (and what happened the other day, too…)
Vazquez has owned the Phillies for years, going back to his days in Montreal. At least the rest of the league is getting a taste now. Atlanta must have a “Suck-B-Gone” machine in the clubhouse that fixes wayward pitchers. At least it seems that way.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Nope, just a better pitchers park than US Cellular
by philiafan14364 on Aug 16, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
it’s cool. I actually defended your answers, but somehow you call me a troll, when in all reality, I wasn’t doing anything different than what you were doing (going to the opposing team’s blog and commenting).
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 16, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
bargains!
Hey – don’t complain! I got seats in Atlanta right on the field, meaning, on the railing down the third base line, last year in September for under $90 per. Those go for $300 here – WHEN you can get them! I LOVE Atlanta as place to watch a game – in my game, Pat the Bat won it on a late HR off Hampton. What a view and what a Bargain!
Thanks, Atlanta! :) We can beat you turds with no closer at all… and pack your stadium with Phils fans, at the same time.
by SJDinAudubon on Aug 16, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions
lol. First off, your guys’ reaction to Bobby’s comments was ridiculous. Managers are supposed to say that kind of thing to make their players feel a little bit better. Secondly, I only “complain” about the phans who obviously have no clue what they are talking about (like the ones who think Philly has a better rotation than Atlanta), and third, I have never once said that the Phills did not deserve to win the game last night. Sure, the Braves SHOULD have won, but the OF D of the phillies was just too good. I give credit where credit is due.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 16, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Did you jump ship? It says your a Braves fan, and you’ve been commenting on Talking Chop as if you are also………
Why don’t you do the Braves a favor and stay over here. That’s just one less teeny bopper hopper we have to deal with on our site!
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
This.
"...Braves tie! ...Braves tie! ...Braves tie!"
by The Keith Lockhart Era on Aug 16, 2009 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
no no
You guys had him first, hes all yours. He was actually fairly pleasent in discussing the game, its just hes a poser. Please, take him back.
by philiafan14364 on Aug 16, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Lidge has to go
I’m sorry he has to. He is costing us waaaaaaay to many games. I don’t mind a blown save every now and then, but the frequncy of, not to mention the importance of the games hes blown the saves in that bothers me.. The Problem is, I don’t know who the answer is…Madson wasn’t very good. Romero? Walker? But we gotta do something ASAP.
July 29th What a GREAT day for pitching! Chris Tillman makes his MLB debut, and the Phillies get Cliff Lee, who just won a Cy young Award! SWEET!
Romeros hurt, and Walkers a schmuk. Why not give Madson a second chance?
by philiafan14364 on Aug 15, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
doubt it
Maybe the first 8 1/2 innings, but that 9th inning defied belief, if not the result, the path they took to get there.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
I growled when Lidge came out to pitch “Not Lidge again.” I hate that the commentators made it sound as if the Braves natural talent won that game when that game was really lost by one person. Forget the fielding mistake by Utley because that play shouldn’t happen if Lidge is really on his game. Once again, he wasn’t and it’s cost the Phillies once again. Use Moyer, use Park, use Durbin or Madson, use Eyre, use Drabek for all I care, but stop using Lidge. For goodness sakes Manuel, stop using Lidge.
Always put off today what can be put off tomorrow.
-Blkfire
commentators?
You must have been listening to TV. On the radio, even “Homer” Wheels had that dread in his voice when Lidge came on. He and Frantzke announced that last inning as if they expected it – maybe not in that EXACT way, but they weren’t surprised, you could hear it.
by SJDinAudubon on Aug 16, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions
In Search of a Closer!!
Well, I was willing to give Brad the benefit of the doubt, but losing like this, is just too bitter a pill to swallow. We’ve got to get a new closer, but who? Myers is not ready. Somebody has got to finish these games. WE CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE THESE KINDS OF GAMES. Now, to Brad’s defense, if Ibanez would have thought about his position at second base, (he didn’t have to run) the game may have turned out different. What happens, we get an extra-base hit that would have scored Ibanez, and given us a 4-2 lead, had we scored that crucial 4th run, we might have won today!! That said, We have to hold these hitters, in this time of season, runs come at a premium, we’re going to running into hot pitchers from here on out, and our pitching HAS TO MATCH THE INTENSITY OF THE OPPONENT!!!
This was a tough loss today, I thought that the pitching overall was o.k., Hamels pitched his usual gritty game, he bended, but didn’t break, and Charlie got him out of there at the right time. The set-up guys were great, they held the Braves, you can’t ask for any more than that!
I thought Brad was ready after last night, why didn’t he just eat the ball, and reload? He had to know that the play was over, there was no play. He throws the ball away, and the game gets tied!! It’s time to look for a closer, I’m hoping he makes a liar out of me, but we can’t afford to go to the playoffs like this, depending on him to close out teams, when EVERYTHING IS AT STAKE, and he is not READY!! Brad is not ready, and he won’t be ready. Who thought that our problem would be a closer??
I had a long reply to this which is now floating somewhere in the system of tubes… suffice it to say, if we are playing “what if” games, we should’ve been up by 4 runs in the 9th and then it would no longer have been a precious “save situation” and we could’ve had our most qualified pitcher finish the game. Making any apologies for Brad Lidge based on Raul’s base running gaffe is pointless. We had a lead, he had a job to do.
Bottom line, Brad Lidge has been, statistically speaking, our worst relief pitcher this year. Worse than Chad Durbin. Worse than Jack Taschner. Worse than Mick Billmeyer in batting practice. To continue to pitch him in 1 run situations against divisional opponents is asinine, “baseball wisdom” be damned. The fact is, it’s one friggin’ inning. It just so happens to be the last one. We have any number of pitchers on our staff who are fully capable of getting through one inning without allowing a run. One of them obviously can’t, and has shown it.
At the very least, we can find solace in the fact that we no longer have to hear that stupid stat about Lidge being 8 for 8 since coming off the DL.
When I joined the Good Phight… it said it WELCOMED opposing views and required a PG-13 level of dialogue. Also, there all plenty of TGP-people on the Braves SB site.
I will preface this by acknowledging that I haven’t seen Lidge like you guys have all year. And it’s fair to blame Lidge for the loss today. But it was by no means his pitching that cost you. He actually pitched really well. Garrett Anderon’s hit should have been handled by Utley as it wasn’t really that hard hit. And you can’t fault him for allowing Diaz to bunt. The intentiona walk wasn’t bad pitching and neither was the walk to Norton. He then made Church look foolish before allowing a seeing eye single by Infante. Nobody hit the ball well off of him. He just made a stupid play on the bunt.
Question for you guys? Not that it would have mattered but why was Rollins not playing at double play depth on the Infante hit? There was 1 out, a double play would have ended the inning?
by Bobby Cocks on Aug 15, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I wondered too about JRoll not playing at DP depth. But, the problem is still Lidge. We need a 1,2,3 innings sometimes. We have not had many of those this year. Everyone who follows the games on this blog ’get ready for an adventure" when Lidge comes in. That is not the way it should be every game.
I was a big Lidge fan AND bought tickets for his bobble head game last April as I wanted it. So, I am putting my money where my mouth is and not just a critc. But, right now, he stinks and needs to get right. He can and will IF he goes down to the minor league. Or, no way we will win it all this year. IMO.
I’m not too sure even if Rollins had been at double play depth that he would have gotten the seeing eye single by Infante. He would have needed to be closer to third base side to have a chance. The major problem is that Lidge has lost control of his pitches. His slider still looks good, but his other pitches have gotten sloppy. Utley did make a mistake on his play, however he was playing the ball deep so that was gonna be a tough play anyway. Brad Lidge has been a question mark all season long. There are going to be games where your offense isn’t going to produce and it’s up to the bullpen to hold on to any lead they get. For the most part it does it’s job, except when Lidge and his erratic pitching comes on. His stuff might look fine but he’s giving up too many runs, homeruns, and walks for a closer. Last year he was spot on, there was no doubt he get get his three outs, hence his nickname “Lights Out.” If a closer can’t command his pitches in tight situations like yesterday or like he’s been given at points during the season, the team is going to lose. Yes, stupid plays were made in the bottom of the ninth, but in my honest, the plays by Rollins and Utley are done the way they were because right now there is not much confidence in Lidges’ ability to come in and pitch a three out inning.
Always put off today what can be put off tomorrow.
-Blkfire
You had to know...
… in the back of your mind, that something like this would happen.
As I was enjoying the Phillies’ stretch run and championship drive last year, I could not help but think two things:
1. Enjoy this as much as you can, because God only knows the next time a Philadelphia team will go down this road.
2. Watch Brad Lidge suck next year.
It was inevitable, folks. The only times he really sucked last year was when he was put in after the Phillies were already losing. He had some rough saves – the division championship clincher against the Gnats comes to mind – but I always had a sense that he would get through it, somehow.
Now I don’t feel that way at all, and I’m right not to. I’m all for Charlie’s loyalty and giving his guys a chance to work through things. But the difference between this year and last year is that, last year, Charlie knew when to pull the plug.
1. Myers could not get settled in during the first half of the year. He was demoted and then came back better than ever.
2. Adam Eaton could not get settled in at all. After he became ineffective in the bullpen, enough was enough and he was gone for good.
3. Kyle Kendrick started out well but got worse and worse as the year went on. (I will always remember Rich Dubee giving him a stern talking-to after pulling him out of a game in LA last August.) When he couldn’t get his act together, they made do without him.
All three of those moves were obviously the right ones. So why are they not taking the same approach with Lidge? When he was put on the DL I thought, “Okay, he’ll heal and be good again.” WRONG.
I like Lidge and want to see him set things right. But he has to be allowed to do so in Lehigh Valley or Reading or any place where he will not cost the Phillies games. Seriously. The Phillies have enough talented people in the bullpen where they can find someone to set things right. Give Madson another chance. Let Park pitch the 8th and 9th. Hell, throw Moyer in there. Just do something so Lidge can get his act together.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I agree 100% and thought the same way you do. I am not for giving up on him, but Ironpigs are out of the race, let him go down there and work out his issues. Get his confidence and come back up. Or bench him for a week like JRoll. But, this attitude of blaming others for missing a ball, etc.. has to stop. Lidge bobbled the ball, Lidge threw it away, Lidge has not have many clean saves ALL YEAR. He needs to get right.
We WILL NOT be World Champions again IF Lidge does not get right. We need him but not like he is now. Lidge, please, for the sake of the team, ask Charlie to send you down so you can get right.
I believe Lidge CAN be ok but not if he does not go down and get it worked out.
Forget about repeating as World Series champions, it’s a question of if the Phillies can hold off the Braves and Marlins to even make the playoffs. Benching Lidge at this point won’t do any good. I think part of why Charlie hasn’t pulled the plug on Lidge yet is because, honestly, who’s going to take his place? There is no question that he needs to be sent down to the minors for a period of time. He’s lost control of his pitches and it seems everyone can see it except Charlie.
Always put off today what can be put off tomorrow.
-Blkfire
Deja Vu
I know a French phrase is way over Charlie’s head, but in this case I can’t think of anything more appropriate.
Let’s see. Didn’t we used to have a manager who kept sending a relief pitcher out there to close, who, over and over again, proved that he was completely unreliable and had no control whatsoever? And didn’t that manager and “closer” cost us a certain World Championship in 1993? Because even though LA had about a 9-pitch, 1-2-3 eighth inning, we had to have Mitchy-poo go out for the ninth because – excuse me while I puke in my mouth – “he’s our closer”?
We are on that same road now. It is time to replace either the “closer” or the manager. I will kill someone if we have a repeat of that Sixth game – probably myself. God help us, I hope Myers can come in and close in two weeks! Right now, Lidge needs a dose of the medicine they gave Myers last year: a month in triple A. It did wonders for Myers, mostly because it shrunk his head back to human size. Unbelievably, Lidge’s head is so swolllen he thinks he is pitching well! A few weeks on the bush league bus will definitely do him some good – and save us the agony of seeing him come in from the bullpen!!!
You are really taking this too personally – talk of killing someone over a baseball game is not healthy. You sound as if Brad Lidge and Charlie Manuel are causing you agony in your life that you can’t handle. It’s baseball, it’s the Philadelphia Phillies. You can’t expect things to go the way you’d like them to without a lot of bumps along the way.
by phillyinportland on Aug 16, 2009 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Jon SMoltz isn’t pitching for anyone right now
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Aug 16, 2009 11:37 AM EDT reply actions
As a starter yes, but the phils need someone who can close and there’s no one on the 25 man roster (or named billy wagner) that I’d trust over smoltz right now
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Aug 16, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Smoltz was pretty awful for the Red Sox. His power stuff isn’t what it was at 42, and I don’t think it would be even in a one-inning stint. And unlike Schilling or Pedro, I don’t see him changing his pitching style to accommodate physical limitations.
Plus he’s an ass. The first time he either made a homophobic comment or whinged about CBP, I’d want to (in WC’s phrase) drop a bag of bricks on his yambag.
Life is still good
Phillies are in 1st place in August, defending their World Championship. Whine all you want about individual games, they’re going to the postseason to make a vigorous defense. I’ll take it.
Yes that’s a nice polyana view of it, but if wagner continues to suck, I’ll expect that the ‘vigorous’ defense doesn’t last past the divisional round.
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Aug 16, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I expect you will be about as right as you were when you picked the Rays to win in 7
by BigPhillyStyle on Aug 16, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t seem terrible to me in the first couple innings – an improvement over wagner?
There’s no one on the roster I’d trust to close more than Wagner unless they want to give CHoP a look see but that doesn’t strike me as the Manuel Way
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=smoltjo01&year=2009&t=p
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Aug 16, 2009 1:51 PM EDT reply actions
Turner Field is Miserable
Watching a baseball game at Turner Field is a miserable experience. When we got to will call there were about 50 people in each line, a line that was not moving. The ticket line was empty! Luckily, someone told us there are Ticketmaster Kiosks or we would have missed the first 3 innings. The stadium was half empty, which is embarrasing for a Saturday day game on a beautiful day. They play the same stupid sound bytes all game long. And what is it with Braves fans not being able to sit in their damn seats and watch the game? I saw 3 pitches during the first 5 innings. You’ve got people constantly getting up, standing in front of you and more vendors selling crap then I have ever seen at a game. It wasn’t until the 7th inning before these ADD people finally sat down to watch the game. The only pleasant part about being there was I didn’t have to listen to what I think is the worst broadcaster in MLB, Chip Carey. Maybe after this year they won’t have to be nice to him b/c of who his Dad was.
And about the game, why did they have the infield in when the bases were loaded with one out in the 9th??? Rollins had no chance at that grounder. Lidge says he has his best stuff in 2 years. Guess what, no one is buying that. He can’t hit his spots and the batter knows exactly what he is throwing. That was just miserable to watch after watching the Phils strand runners on 2nd and 3rd with no outs all game long. Welcome back Raul Ibanez!
The stadium was half empty, which is embarrasing for a Saturday day game on a beautiful day.
Dang. I know Turner is big, but geez, if it was half-empty, it must hold over 80,000, since the attendance was over 44,000.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Aug 16, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a difference between paid attendance and the amount of people who show up. That 44K you pleasantly trumpet is an indicator of paid tickets, and an over stated number of actual attendance most likely.
The nice thing about Braves games is that if any team has a solid fan base, their fans usually outnumber Braves “fans”
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Aug 16, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
So you were there?
As I worked for a minor league baseball team the attendance is based on tickets sold, and the stadium was half empty like I said.
by JWillystyle3 on Aug 16, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
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