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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Who Is This Franchise We're Rooting For?

One of my first baseball memories is of the Phillies' 1980 World Series season.  I remember going to a few games, although I think I've mixed up which ones with highlight reels.  I definitely remember watching the final outs sitting in my family room.  And then I remember everything going downhill from there.  Other than a blip in 1983 and 1993, my existence as a Phillies fan has been all doom and gloom.  And for good reason -- the product on the field had been pretty atrocious and the management was worse.

But things are different now.  For the Phillies, it seems that everything's coming up aces.  And if you have any memory of the last thirty years, I'm sure you're like me and occasionally find yourself asking in joyous disbelief - who is this franchise I'm rooting for?

What am I talking about?  Every facet of the game.  Take a look at this quick summary:

Stadium:  After years of being behind the curve with the old Vet Stadium, the Phillies built Citizens Bank Park which opened in 2004.  It is a beautiful park that's also great for watching games.  Other than Inga Saffron complaining about the faux brick facade and every Braves pitcher complaining about giving up home runs, I haven't really heard anyone say anything but glowing things about the place.

Attendance:  Last night the Phillies had their 53rd sellout of the year.  Only 8 games have not been sellouts so far, and chances are the remaining 20 games are going to be mostly, if not completely, sold out as well.  The Phillies have the third highest attendance total and attendance average in the majors (behind the Dodgers and Yankees in both, the two largest markets in the country).  They're on pace to top 3.5 million fans at the park this year.

Manager:  The team is managed by an old hick who no one can understand at press conferences.  Yet, he seems to be able to manage players perfectly.  Combined with Milt Thompson, he's a hitting instructor extraordinaire.  He lets others perform the tasks he's not great at, like coaching the pitching staff.  Yes, he has difficulties with in-game management sometimes, but the proof is in the pudding here:  he has a .552 winning percentage with the Phillies and has won the most games in the NL since he was hired in 2005.

Management:  After years of penny pinching and gut-based pursuits of hustle and character, the Phillies management finally seems to know what it's doing.  They have a payroll that a major metropolitan area deserves.  And they know how to evaluate talent and attract and/or keep it in Philadelphia.  No, they're not the most forward-thinking front office in terms of modern-day talent evaluation, but as much as they preach old-school scouting, they somehow put a team on the field year-in, year-out that does what modern day analysts preach:  take pitches, get on base, and rake.  And we can't ignore that the front office really gets it with contracts these days.  It locks up its young stars and is finally understanding sunk costs (see, e.g., Adam Eaton and Geoff Jenkins).

Minor Leagues:  Relatedly, the team actually has a minor league system to be proud of.  As a Phillies fan of years past, could you ever imagine them trading top prospects for a pitcher like Cliff Lee and not damaging their system for a decade in the process?  Yet, they were able to do just that and still keep Kyle Drabek, Dominic Brown, and Michael Taylor, let alone other interesting prospects like Travis D'Arnaud, Joe Savery, and Anthony Gose.  And they did a pretty good job signing talented players from this year's draft as well.

Home Grown Talent:  Building off the great minor league system currently in place, the Phillies have an amazing crop of home grown talent in the majors right now.  Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, Jimmy Rollins, Cole Hamels, J.A. Happ, Ryan Madson, and even Carlos Ruiz defensively -- almost this entire list is award-winning caliber.  Almost every other team in the majors would kill to have this level of home-grown talent playing for its major league team.

Outfield From the Ashes:  The Phillies outfield should amaze you every night.  Not just in their performance, but in the way that they have performed after almost being left for dead by their prior teams.  Raul Ibanez doesn't exactly fit in this mold, although his performance before his injury certainly seemed like an amazing turn of events.  But Shane Victorino and Jayson Werth, both 2009 All-Stars, were pretty much jettisoned by the Dodgers because they weren't developing.  Yet, Victorino might be the team's all-around MVP this year, and Jayson Werth is putting up leader-board numbers at the plate.

Mid-Season Pitching Gold:  For the fourth year in a row, the Phillies have made a mid-season pitching acquisition that has turned into gold.  In 2006, they traded for Jamie Moyer, who went 5-2 down the stretch with a 1.09 WHIP And 116 ERA+.   In 2007, they signed JC Romero who posted a 1.24 ERA in 51 games out of the pen for the Phils, combining with Madson and Wagner to form a great back of the bullpen.  In 2008, they traded for Joe Blanton, who went 4-0 down the stretch, won 2 games in the playoffs, and is now having a superb 2009.  And then there is Cliff Lee.  No, he's not Roy Halladay.  He's better.  He has a 0.82 ERA, 4 wins, and a .923 OPS as a hitter (his .538 SLG is fourth on the team, behind only Raul Ibanez, Ben Francisco, and Ryan Howard).

Injuries:  The team is healthy.  Yes, Brett Myers has been out for most of the season, and Raul Ibanez suffered an injury from which he still might not have fully recovered.  But, otherwise, injuries haven't been a problem for this team.  I haven't studied it, but I'd venture a guess that the Phillies' starters have, comparatively, a very high percentage of the team's total plate appearances.  And this isn't a new thing.  Star Phillies just don't get hurt for long stretches of time.  Certainly some injuries are fluky, but staying healthy is often a skill in itself.  And the Phillies have it.

Results:  Then there are the results.  The Phillies have won the NL East two years in a row.  They won their second World Series ever last year.  This year, they lead the NL East by 6.5 games, and have the second-best record in the entire NL.

No, the team isn't perfect.  Brad Lidge is giving everyone nightmares this year.  There are salary issues looming for next year.  Ruben Amaro is still new at his job and could just be getting lucky so far.  They're very vulnerable to injury, as they don't have much depth at some key positions.

But that's quibbling at this point.  The franchise is firing on all cylinders right now.  And this is an entirely new and incredibly welcome feeling for me as a fan of the Philadelphia Phillies.

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Regarding CBP: I still wish it had been built somewhere else. Not necessarily in Center City, but somewhere within the urban fabric. That it was built in the Sports Complex is just another example of the can’t-do attitude and failure of imagination that always seem to plague Philadelphia.

But otherwise, great post. It’s gratifying to be able to root for a team that’s been top-notch on the field without feeling too mercenary.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 10:58 AM EDT reply actions  

Definitely true about CBP

I agree completely, especially as someone who lives in the city. But, the amazing success of the stadium otherwise has left me kind of forgetting about this deficiency. You’re right to point it out though.

by David S. Cohen on Aug 21, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

nowhere else would work as well

From a regional perspective it’s in the best possible position, especially if it has to be in the city of Philadelphia. It was put in a place where there was ready access to highways going north, east, west and south. There was plenty of parking. There are relatively few homes nearby (and all of them were built after the Vet). It’s not a “scary” area and very little private property had to be acquired.

by lseltzer on Aug 21, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree with the premise. The whole point should have been to make it harder for people to drive, not easier.

If you make it difficult for people to drive (and make public transportation available as well), then fewer people will drive. And fewer people driving is better for the atmosphere in and around the ballpark and better for the city as a whole.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

The whole point should have been to make it harder for people to drive, not easier.

Yeah, the front office should build a moat around CBP so that it can only be accessible by non-power boats.

by boknows71 on Aug 21, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, really. Do people drive to Wrigley, Fenway, Yankee Stadium, or Pac Bell? No, they don’t, because it’s an enormous headache for the few that do. Yet somehow all their fans manage just fine. The atmosphere around Fenway is rocking both before and after every game. We have McFadden’s and a sea of concrete.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

At the same time fenway is unable to seat as many as they’d probably wish due to the limitations of being in Boston proper…only way to expand that stadium is straight up :)

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Aug 21, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are you kidding? People drive to Yankee Stadium all the time.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Aug 21, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought it was mostly subway. Anyway, cross that one off if I’m wrong.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well there is lots of subway traffic to the games, but people drive in from the suburbs all the time (Bergen County, for instance, which has awful rail service, the only sensible way to get to Yankee Stadium is via the GWB).

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Aug 21, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

It wasn’t really a great example anyway, since the atmosphere around Yankee Stadium (or Shea/Citi, for that matter) is anything but rocking. Fenway, meanwhile, is a rather extreme example in the other direction.

I’m trying to be extra emphatic here just to make a point. Obviously, the goal isn’t to have 100% of the people walk or take mass transit. But, all other things being equal, the fewer cars there are, the better the ballpark experience is and the more fun it is to be in a city on the day of a big game. I’d be perfectly happy with a situation like they have at Safeco, if anyone’s ever been there. A good number of people drive, but many others walk from work or take mass transit too (a lot more than in Philadelphia). It makes a big difference.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I totally agree with this point. The ride home on the Broad Line or up Broad on my bike with all of the South Philadelphians walking home is always a great atmosphere after a big win (not to mention my walk up Broad after Game 5… that was an entirely different experience though). Getting this experience to more people is definitely an admirable goal. I just doubt the effectiveness of ‘making it difficult to drive’. Parking will expand to meet the driving demand, which will always be there with the number of people who come from suburbs West and East, and that would only serve to make driving in Philadelphia even more awful than it already is, not reduce traffic. One doesn’t logically lead to the other.

by Steve J on Aug 21, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s fair.

I think this was also a good reminder that getting people to walk to the ballpark is the best thing of all, even better than having them take mass transit. But CBP will never be walkable for the vast majority of fans, no matter what happens.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you think Brunlett

Will let me share his locker so I can leave my grill and cooler at the stadium since I’ll be walking to all games from now on?

Its not like he should get his own locker with that batting average.

by boknows71 on Aug 21, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

If our ballpark were surrounded by vendors and restaurants (like Fenway, Safeco, Pac Bell, etc. – but not us), then you wouldn’t have to bring your own personalized grill and cooler.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great

So I can pay the same prices inside and outside for beers and food?

by boknows71 on Aug 21, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

This was silly when it started since you weren’t taking the original idea made as it was intended, so why must it continue?

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Aug 21, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cause

I’m bored at work can’t wait to DRIVE to Camden for Allmans and Widespread Panic.

by boknows71 on Aug 21, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

And my wife’s cousin lives three blocks from Fenway Park. He could give a crap about baseball (he’s an artist/intellectual type) but has the Red Sox schedule on his fridge so he knows not to move his car, lest he lose his parking space.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Aug 21, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you’re always going to have as many drivers as the capacity of the road network will allow. The idea is to induce a greater share of ballpark attendees to get to the ballpark without driving, not to eliminate the traffic around the ballpark – that’s just unrealistic.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I have to agree with that one. The congestion in the Bronx before and after Yankee games is horrendous. And I’d say the fact that people get to those ballparks by public transit is just as dependent on the quality of the CTA, MBTA, MTA and SFMTA and their relative proficiency at getting large numbers of people where they want to go in a timely manner. SEPTA proves time and time again they are a 3rd rate transit system pretty much top to bottom. Constructing a stadium that demands people take an inadequate public transit system to get there is just ignoring the intricacies of the market. As anyone who has lived in Philadelphia can attest, we are a driving metropolitan area, and it is not entirely due to the fact that we can. The Expressway is totally inconvenient so often, yet people continue to use it.

Putting the stadium “outside” of the city was the only way to accurately address all the complex factors that go into Philadelphia transportation. Not to mention preventing a serious exploitation of an already semi-margianalized community in Chinatown.

by Steve J on Aug 21, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Chinatown site was always a no-go. I just feel like we never should have gotten into a Chinatown-or-bust situation to begin with.

Also, I don’t really think we’re really that much of a driving town. Compared to Europe, sure, but compared to Dallas or Atlanta? By American standards, we’re actually reasonably transit-oriented, SEPTA’s problems notwithstanding.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Comparing Philadelphia to cities outside of the Northeast corridor is just silly. Dallas and Atlanta are in a different country.

by Steve J on Aug 21, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why is it silly? It’s precisely relevant to my point, because putting CBP in the South Philly warehouse wasteland was exactly the type of thing they would do in Dallas or Atlanta. Yes, we are less transit-oriented than Boston or New York, but limiting all comparisons to the NE Corridor would only make sense if you could only accomplish what I’m saying we should have tried to accomplish if you were equal to Boston or New York. We aren’t less transit-oriented than Seattle, and they were able to pull it off.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes we are

You never saw “Singles”?

by boknows71 on Aug 21, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I saw part of it. Now, have you ever actually been to Seattle and ridden the transit? Because I have. Did you know they only had buses there (no trains) until this decade?

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

I have been there, been on the buses and the train and boat as well. Seattle and Philly can never be compared (as well most cities outside of NE).

by boknows71 on Aug 21, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t his plan fall flat?

(It’s been a long time since I saw the movie, and at the time I was more interested in what I saw as the parallels to my own dating life, plus mooning over Kyra Sedgwick and Bridget Fonda, plus the tunes, than the plot as such.)

by dajafi on Aug 21, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Crowes worst film in my opinion but still worth watching – the super train failed in the movie and in reality.

However, just to say – there is currently a plan for a high speed rail system (like japan not like acela i believe) to be developed between LA and Vegas…as I understand it.

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Aug 21, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why build a bullet train for a city that already has a monorail? I’m pretty sure that it was sold to them by a travelling salesman with a funny hat and cool dance steps.

by Steve J on Aug 21, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is there a chance the rail could bend?

Not at all, my Hindu friend!

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

and less rain than oregon
and chicago is not the windiest city in america

give the people their illusions :)

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Aug 21, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

And

Pittsburgh has more days of rain than Seattle.

by boknows71 on Aug 21, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do think the Sports Complex is well served by public transit as well as the major highways. When I lived in the city, the subway was easy as pie. Now that I have to drive in, I appreciate the convenience.

I know that I’m not a progressive urbanist as a result, but life takes you to New Jersey sometimes.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Aug 21, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

“life takes you to New Jersey sometimes”

Yes, when I am on my way to New York.

by FuquaManuel on Aug 21, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

FML

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Aug 21, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

screwball greenies

that’s a real winning idea. make it harder for people to get to and from the ballpark. Maybe we could put it on an island in the middle of the Delaware and everyone could swim there.

by lseltzer on Aug 21, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

I believe that by making it ‘harder’ for people to drive there the original poster was hoping it would encourage people to take public transportation for a variety of economical, environmental, and congestional reasons…I don’t think the idea was to make it harder to drive to to make it harder for people to come to games.

Stadiums don’t get built in urban centers any more – just doesn’t happen

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Aug 21, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

It happens, but maybe not on the East Coast. If you’ve ever been to San Diego, those parks are right downtown. Pac Bell isn’t far from downtown SF, such as it is. (And transit access there is really good.)

But here in New York, Bloomberg’s push to build the new Jets stadium on the West Side of Manhattan was shot down—thank goodness. Ditto for Steinbrenner’s dream of a Manhattan stadium.

I take the point about wanting to change behavior around how people get to games. But that’s not politically feasible in most parts of America—and when you consider the desirability and hence cost of downtown real estate, and how much jurisdictions already tend to give away in terms of tax abatements, preferential loan terms, et al, on balance it’s probably better for progressives to see stadiums built in more car-accessible locations.

by dajafi on Aug 21, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nationals Field isn’t too far from downtown either. Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Detroit, Minnesota, St. Louis are all downtown.

Anyway, like I said in my first comment, I don’t necessarily think the ballpark should have been downtown. I just think it should have been somewhere in the city, as opposed to just the city limits (which is different).

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

attendance is even better than you state

According to the latest attendance data the Phillies have the highest average home attendance percentate (101.8%) in MLB, higher than even the Red Sox, who last year had 104%.

Strangely, the Phillies are only 14th out of 30 in road attendance, behind Atlanta for example.

by lseltzer on Aug 21, 2009 11:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Partially because the Phillies play half of their road games in Florida, Washington, Atlanta, and that mausoleum in Queens?

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Aug 21, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great point

Awful attendance at all except Queens. Just apathetic fan bases all around.

I know I’m homeric with this but I get the package so I can watch Phils games and there really isn’t a crowd in the majors like the Phils over the past few years.

Every time a huge homer is hit it looks as though the Series was just one, complete exhilaration. You only see the same in NYY, Boston and Wrigley like you do at CBP.

by boknows71 on Aug 21, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

well, and a Great Recession too. We are living in a bit of a bubble here baseball-wise. The industry on the aggregate will have to cool it on the expense side or everyone will look like Florida and Washington. Just about every other franchise in the country is at the point where we were in 2000—where prior to you even getting to the ticket booth, other fans are just giving tix away or cutting losses.

by Wet Luzinski on Aug 21, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Regarding the spot in Queens, my brother-in-law the Mets fan (my only empirical evidence that Mets fans can be good people) told me last week that a certain angle from Citi Field allows you to see all of the pretty brick and iron work they put up on a background of an entire strip of chop shops with car parts “hiding” on their roofs. Anyone seen/heard of this?

by Steve J on Aug 21, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Been to games in Miami and Tampa Bay last two years including WS G1, which was the only one with attendance over 22,000, so your point about their sucky fans is quite correct. WS game seemed like about 1/3 of the fans were Phillies faithful.

by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Aug 21, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

The entire Tampa-St. Pete metro area only has double the population of Philadelphia County. The Philly/Wilmington/Atlantic City metro area has about 2.5 times the population.

Plus, the Trop’s a horrible stadium, and most of the people I know down here (Central Florida) are from somewhere else, and tend to root for those teams. Heck, I know more Pirates fans than Rays fans.

"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"

by The Dark on Aug 24, 2009 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

They’re very vulnerable to injury, as they don’t have much depth at some key positions.

Middle Infield especially

by Tron79 on Aug 21, 2009 11:15 AM EDT reply actions  

the point

is that this is a franchise on a major roll, unprecedented in its long history.

What I still struggle to wrap my head around is how much of this is luck and how much design.

When they hired Manuel, I thought the biggest reason why was to keep Jim Thome happy—a classic Phillies cronyism move. But he’s clearly turned out to be the best manager the team has ever had, a superb clubhouse leader who might know as much about hitting as anyone in the game and who seems to relate with stars and bench guys equally well, maybe because he’s been both himself (“The Red Devil” was HUGE in Japan!) He also grasps the limits of his own knowledge, e.g. by letting Dubee run the pitchers pretty much on his own.

And when they brought in Amaro, I thought it would be even worse: all we’d heard was that he disdained performance analysis, was a numbers guy, had come up under Wade—an ass-kisser to an ass-kisser. My fear was that he’d combine Wade’s unctuousness with the arrogance of an ex-player and Gillick’s faith in his “gut,” and get rolled by smart execs. Instead, he pulled off an astonishingly good trade with the guy I used to believe was the best GM in the game, Mark Shapiro.

Did they get lucky with these two guys, or did they know much more than I did? Maybe the latter.

by dajafi on Aug 21, 2009 12:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Luck and skill

It’s got to be a combination of both, right? I think all successful people get where they are because of both. One without the other will only get you so far.

by David S. Cohen on Aug 21, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll buy that with pickups like Werth and Romero—somebody (Gillick and his crew) perceived that they had talent but flaws, gave them a shot, and they panned out big-time.

But with Manuel and Amaro, it’s arguable that they hired the absolute best guys for the absolute worst reason. What I guess I don’t have enough information about is the extent to which they really were crony/comfort hires.

by dajafi on Aug 21, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Montgomery's ascendency to President

…and maybe more importantly, Bill Giles’ shunting into the “ballpark project” and away from operations is imho a key ownership move. I think the Silent Partners realized, possibly precipitated by not only results but awful clusterf**ks like L’Affaire Rolen, that the organization had to change or they would need to sell. The team was moribund as they planned to create CBP (and let’s not forget, this and the Linc were subsidized by PA taxpayer $), and the political pressure would have forced a sale if they were born into a new place and the team sucked. That being said, I can’t at all explain Pittsburgh, which IMHO is an even better park than CBP.

by Wet Luzinski on Aug 21, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point. Giles was a continuous disaster from the moment he took over the organization in ’81.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

The economy

also is playing to the Phils advantage. It is a good time to be a kind of business that can in effect print its own money when all its competitors are absolutely on a credit stranglehold. We need only look as far as the Cliff Lee trade to see this at work.

by Wet Luzinski on Aug 21, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Phillies Budget Issues

Anyone have specifics on how much bigger the Phillie budget will be for next year? By my estimate, the Phillies are looking at a $120M payroll, and that’s without:

a catcher, a 3rd baseman, an entire bench (i.e. 5 position players), and 4 back-of-the-bullpen arms

I’ve assumed the Phillies will keep Victorino at ~5M and Joe Blanton at ~7+M through arb, which felt reasonable to me. Total budget for this year is ~130M. 2011 is even worse, while you can rid yourself of Moyer’s contract, Blanton / Lee / Werth all hit FA and other players contracts escalate.

by fphjr01 on Aug 21, 2009 1:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Must see TV

Good post. This team is magical and fun to watch. I’m finding myself altering plans, turning down invites, and basically doing everything possible on nights and weekends to ensure I can be a couch potato for these games. Did anybody even bother with the first half of that Eagles game last night? I didn’t.

I don’t know about the luck vs design argument, but it does seem like when good things happen, it continues to build. Let’s just hope no one screws it up.

One point of contention. That ‘93 team was not just a “blip” for me. I lived and breathed and died with those early 90’s teams. That was a great era, even if they didn’t bring home the hardware.

by Boundforbeach on Aug 21, 2009 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Veterans' Stadium, the Hippest Place in Town!

Not exactly. Growing up, the Phillies were the only home team I’d rather watch on TV instead of seeing live. I never liked the Vet except when I had really good seats to something. I went to Fenway a couple times in college and afterwards – it wasn’t until then that I FINALLY understood that baseball should be seen live, and could be really enjoyed too. So for that I say Thank God for CBP. I could care less where it is. We have a proper ball park and that’s all that matters to me.

In 2006 I went to RFK to watch the Phillies beat the Nationals. I remembered at that point exactly what I hated about the Vet. Granted, RFK did not seem quite as cavernous; I was seated in straightaway center field, right behind Aaron Rowand and still felt like my sight-lines to the plate were OK. However, if I got up to get food or use the bathroom, I was immediately overcome by that stale beer / vomit / peanuts / concrete smell which personified the Vet.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 21, 2009 2:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Great post

Makes me feel like a bandwagoner, though. Unlike most of you, I came to be a Phillies phan relatively recently, as an adult.

I was born and raised in Oregon, to parents with no Philly connection, who weren’t sports fans in particular but insofar as they followed baseball were Dodgers fans. As a teenager I began to follow baseball and became a Mariners fan, as they were the closest thing to a local MLB team, and picked the Pirates as my NL team of choice (because they were good at the time; we’re talking early ’90s here). But I was really just a casual fan.

I went across country to go to college, picking Lafayette College in Easton, PA, and met a lot of folks from the Philly area but really I quit paying attention to baseball except for watching SportsCenter. However, several years later, in 2001, I moved to the Philly suburbs and began hanging out with a college friend who was from the area and was a big-time Phillies phan. We went to several games that year and I began to love baseball again, and the Phillies in particular became my favorite team. My phandom was cemented in 2003, when the signing of Thome and the trade for Millwood suddenly made the team a legitimate contender, rather than a couple talented players surrounded by dreck. I spent much of that season discovering the online Phillies phan communities and it was through them, as much as by virtue of the team itself, that I truly became a phan.

So I haven’t really suffered through the truly lean years; the worst season I experienced since I’ve followed the Phillies was the barely-under-.500 2002 campaign. But I’ve been through the disappointment of the high hopes of the years since (up until finally getting it done last year!). All in all, it’s been a fun time for me.

by phatj on Aug 21, 2009 2:15 PM EDT reply actions  

One probably could argue that the near-misses of ’03, ’05, and ’06 were as painful (though a very different kind of pain) than the crap we all went through for all but one year in 1987-2000.

You’re not a bandwagoner; you just have pretty good timing.

by dajafi on Aug 21, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

One category David left out

Although it’s basically a by-product of the others: Players wanting to come here.

Since before Curt Flood, through and maybe beyond Scott Rolen, good players hadn’t wanted to come to Philly. It was all the losing, it was the phans, it was the local press, it was the organization, it was the ballpark. Curt Schilling used to say that ownership/management would do little things that would piss players off, like scheduling things at inconvenient times that interfered with precious downtime, things that assumed outsized importance in some player’s minds. Now, we’re winning; the phans still sometimes boo but lately it’s not nearly as noticeable (because there’s much less boo-worthy performance); the press is relatively mild; the organization is committed to winning and even sometimes does nice things that players appreciate; and the ballpark has nice facilities. All in all, good players seem like they’d be happy to come here – it sounded like Halladay would’ve been happy to waive his no-trade (he had one, right?) to become a Phillie, bandbox accusations emanating from the Atlanta metro region notwithstanding.

"I am the Walrus?..... I am the Walrus." - Donny Kerabatsos

by The Navigator on Aug 21, 2009 2:40 PM EDT reply actions  

JIM JAM

I think the signing of Jim Thome really “legitimized” the franchise in a lot of ways, even if it didn’t bear fruit in terms of postseason appearances.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Aug 21, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's 2002

And you’re being asked which of the Big Four professional sports teams in Philadelphia will be the first to win a championships, the Phillies would have to have been a clear #4, right?

Eagles: Outstanding, great young quarterback hitting his peak, well coached, weak Conference.

Flyers: They’re the Flyers, perennial playoff contenders, excursions deep into the playoffs are routine.

Sixers: Coming off an appearance in the Finals, one of the top players in the game on the roster.

Phillies: Cornerstone third baseman begging to leave town, mediocre pitching, new ballpark a couple years away, apathetic fanbase, etc. etc.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Aug 21, 2009 2:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Because the flyers have choked sooo many times I still would have put them in third not second on your list. Maybe even 4th, they are in the same rut the eagles are in.

I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.

by Christopher A on Aug 21, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well...

… I think the Flyers have generally done a better job of assessing – and addressing – their needs than the Eagles have.

This year, the Eagles are already running into a traditionally Flyer-esque problem: They have the talent to win it all, but everyone is hurt already.

And please define “choking” for me. The only times I can think of the Flyers choking in recent years were 1997 and 2000. During most of the Lindros years, they peaked too early. Other times, they overachieved during the regular season only to run into better teams in the playoffs. Many times they had too many people injured at the wrong times. And you have years like this past season where they were sloppy down the stretch and got bounced early. Anyone who watched the team closely this year wanted them to go deep into the playoffs but did not expect it.

As for the Sixers, they’ve been spinning their wheels for some time now. They have to be last on the list for now.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 21, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you ever read "The Great Philadelphia Sports Debate..."

Glen Macnow picked the Phillies to end the title drought, even if it was only because he expected the Eagles to fall short every year (smart man). Angelo Cataldi ripped into him and said that there was no way the Eagles would not win the Super Bowl in ’04. We all know how that turned out…

by NowWhat? on Aug 21, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those guys were just guessing.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

True...

but they were “educated” guesses… they at least put a little bit of thought into them before answering.

Really, WC’s post reminded me of that debate, so that’s why I posted it. Maybe he’s read it, and maybe you have too. I don’t know. Actually, it’s not a bad book.

by NowWhat? on Aug 21, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

how did we miss all this?

David’s post is extremely well-taken, and yet – how many of us felt this way a little over three years ago? Obviously, as WholeCamels notes, nobody felt this way circa 2002. But by July 2006, it now appears in retrospect, the new Era of Good Baseball Operations was pretty well underway. Yet I don’t think most of us felt that way on the day Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle were traded away – the trade felt like precisely more of what we’d been spoonfed for years, and it seemed to portend more years of frustration. Gillick, IIRC, was even quoted as saying we couldn’t expect to contend for several more seasons.

Somebody smarter than me should do a post looking back at that trade and see what it meant to our subsequent success. Obviously the players we got from NY were worthless. But – was it critical to clear up that salary space? Did picking up Werth replace Abreu’s production well enough, and with a younger and cheaper player, that we were able to apply Abreu’s money to locking up Utley? Or did it not ultimately mean anything, and if so, how was it that the team was able to do so well after dumping a critical piece like that? (I do not, by any means, wish to restart the Abreu-was-dragging-us-down nonsense and I apologize in advance if this comment in any way ends up contributing to that.)

"I am the Walrus?..... I am the Walrus." - Donny Kerabatsos

by The Navigator on Aug 21, 2009 3:41 PM EDT reply actions  

The Abreu money was most directly spent on Eaton the next spring. His contract I’m pretty sure was up after ‘07, and Chase didn’t get even sort of expensive until I think this year. So it’s tough to draw that line.

I know Stark and others believe that moving Bobby, Lieberthal et al out was key to “letting the young leaders come forward.” My inclination is to dismiss that, but it’s so far beyond anything that an outsider can grasp that we can’t, entirely.

As for what happened in ’06 after the Abreu trade, my recollection is that Dellucci went absolutely bug-crap crazy for a month or so, and that plus better pitching from mostly Hamels and Myers and the addition of Moyer got us back in the race.

by dajafi on Aug 21, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think the Abreu trade helped in any material way. Half the money we saved on Abreu was probably blown on Adam Eaton. Rather, I think we were bailed out by two things: Aaron Rowand having a great year in 2007, and the subsequent emergence of Victorino and Werth.

You can never say what might have been, but if we hadn’t traded Abreu, this is what most likely would have happened:
2007: Rowand CF, Abreu RF, Vic 4th OF, no Eaton, no Werth?. $5-10 mill in the hole
2008: Vic CF, Abreu RF, no Eaton, no Werth, no Jenkins, even money
2009: Vic CF, ??? RF

We would have missed out on Werth, which would have hurt us in 2009 and 2010, but we would have been just as good if not better in 2007 and 2008.

I don’t think Gillick was that much better of a GM than Ed Wade. The team he inherited already had a lot going for it. He made some good moves, he made some bad moves, and he had some good luck.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mets' collapse

I think the answer to the Navigator’s inquiry is that no one could have predicted two straight September implosions by the Mets. We’re not going to rely on that this year (and if we do have to, something has gone drastically wrong). Without the Mets’ implosions, there would still be no playoffs (since 1993) and no World Series win (since 1980). Manuel would have the wins, and the team would have the players, but the actual post-season, which has driven the attendance and the players coming here (which was a good point brought up), would have been missed.

And we’d feel a lot different about this franchise right now.

by David S. Cohen on Aug 21, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll credit that for ‘07, but last year I think the Phils won it on merit. They led most of the summer, fell back in late August/early September and then dominated down the stretch. The Mets were hot while the Phils were cold, and at the end my recollection is that they weren’t great, but they weren’t awful either—around .500 for the last few weeks of ’08.

by dajafi on Aug 21, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

2008 Mets winning pctgs by month

.520, .464, .464, .692, .621, .520

So: mediocre first half, blazing hot after the break for two months, mediocre down the stretch.

by dajafi on Aug 21, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mets’ highwater mark was 82-63 on September 10, then went 7-10 in the last 17. But we ended up beating them by a solid 3.0 G, so even if they had been 9-8, we probably still would have won.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bobby

I really hope we don’t end up playing the Angels in the World Series this year. It would be really ugly when Abreu batted, and I don’t want to have to be a part of that.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 3:54 PM EDT reply actions  

You think so?

I, for one, would stand and applaud when he came to bat.

by phatj on Aug 21, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I loved Bobby

But no way. It’s the World Series.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Aug 21, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rethinking this

I would cheer him during pre-game introductions but not when he came to bat.

by phatj on Aug 21, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

adding...

I certainly wouldn’t boo him, either.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Aug 21, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s ‘cause you’re really from Oregon! (I kid, I kid)

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

My wife absolutely loves the Angels, so that would be a fraught fortnight in the dajafi household anyway.

by dajafi on Aug 21, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

a red sox phillies world series here would have the same problems…plus my boss is a red sox fan (hell he’s friends with that warner dude who owns part of the team)

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Aug 21, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great post. I think we need to give some credit to the trainers of the phils. Other than the pitchers being on the DL, very few issues.

by DeanH on Aug 21, 2009 4:26 PM EDT reply actions  

lol
The team is managed by an old hick who no one can understand at press conferences. Yet, he seems to be able to manage players perfectly.

Replace “old hick” with “crazy Venezuelan” and you’ve got Ozzie Guillen.

That ball hit deep! Way back! You can put it on the boooaaaard...YES!

Long drive into deep right center field! This ball is OUTTA HEEERRRREE!
R.I.P. Harry Kalas 4-13-09

by HappyHuman on Aug 21, 2009 5:49 PM EDT reply actions  

No you don’t – not even close

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Aug 21, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, come on…all of the White Sox players love Ozzie.

That ball hit deep! Way back! You can put it on the boooaaaard...YES!

Long drive into deep right center field! This ball is OUTTA HEEERRRREE!
R.I.P. Harry Kalas 4-13-09

by HappyHuman on Aug 21, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know what I just realized, HappyHuman? You and “doubleh” are two different people. I’ve been conflating the two of you in my head all this time.

by taco pal on Aug 21, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

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