Logjammin': Can the Phillies Resolve the Outfield Situation in 2010 and Beyond?
If anything good (besides Cliff Lee) came out of the Phillies' protracted give-and-take, dance-of-death with J.P. Ricciardi and the Toronto Blue Jays during the Roy Halladay "negotiations," it's that pretty much every casual Phillies fan is now versed in the top prospects in the Phillies' farm system.
The two most discussed position players in those negotiations -- outfielders Michael Taylor, now with the Triple-A Lehigh Valley IronPigs, and Domonic Brown, now with Double-A Reading Phillies -- have shown little reason for fans to doubt their abilities.
Taylor, a left-fielder, has been sidelined with a strained oblique since August 15th and, despite a typically slow start for him at the Triple-A level, was 14-for-40 in his last ten games, including hitting for the cycle on August 12th versus Louisville. About the only qualms with Taylor right now are that some scouts and experts don't quite know what to make of him; he's a gigantic contact hitter who hits for power due to his incredible physical strength. He doesn't fit any prototypical prospect mold, so he's hard to project. The numbers, however, speak for themselves (combined .320/.395/.549 at two levels this season). Add in his intelligence (he's a Stanford man, don'tchaknow) and the sky is the limit. He's going to be ready by mid-2010, if not sooner. He'll be 24 in December, so he's not exactly a young prospect.
Right-fielder Domonic Brown avoided the new level slow start and has been absolutely tearing it up in Reading (.320/.378/.587). Brown missed a significant stretch earlier this summer due to a broken finger but barely missed a step. Scouts and stat mavens both rave about the guy, his makeup is off-the-charts great, and his teammates love him. And he doesn't turn 22 until early September. If there's one Phillies prospect destined for superstardom, this is the guy. Barring injury or any hitches in his development, Brown projects to be ready for a spot in Philadelphia in 2011.
Sounds great! What's the problem? After the jump...
Well, there just happen to be three guys in Philadelphia right now named Raul Ibanez, Shane Victorino, and Jayson Werth, all three All-Stars having excellent (overall) seasons. And the Phillies are committed to all three through at least the 2010 season.
Ibanez is signed through 2011 and is owed a base salary of $11.5MM in both 2010 and 2011. Werth signed a two year extension in the offseason through 2010, when he is owed $7MM. Victorino is still in his arbitration years and is under team control through 2011 and is earning just $3.125MM this year. With the numbers he's putting up this year, his performance in the 2008 postseason, and his outsized personality (ahem), he's likely to get a substantial bump in his salary for 2010.
Although the team sheds the salaries of Jim Thome (yup, Phillies paid him $3MM in 2009), Adam Eaton, Geoff Jenkins, and possibly Brett Myers before next season, Chase Utley, Victorino, Werth, Ryan Howard, and Cole Hamels all get substantial raises next year, bumping the team very close to its likely upper limits of payroll tolerance and thereby limiting the Phillies' ability to retool in the event of an injury to one of their key players. Shedding a few million dollars from the payroll would not be the worst thing the team could do.
So what should the Phillies do?
Yup, it's a complicated situation, compounded by the sentimental feelings the organization and fanbase have for Werth and Victorino as 2008 Champs.
The Raul Ibanez signing, which looked like a masterstroke as recently as July, has lost some lustre with the .746 OPS he's posted since July 1st. He's probably still somewhat hobbled by his groin injury, but that's what happens to 37 year olds -- they get injured!
Ibanez is the player we thought he was -- a solid hitting outfielder, prone to blistering hot streaks and Arctic cold stretches. From an actuarial standpoint, trading the 37 year old Ibanez and getting another team to take his salary could be a coup. However, thanks to his hot start, he's become a fan favorite, and a P.R. conscious organization isn't likely to jettison a beloved player and an equally good human being.
Letting Jayson Werth fly the coop after 2010 seems like an obvious solution, compounded by the fact that Werth is blossoming as a player this season, and is on track for his first 30 HR/100 RBI season, along with fine defense in right field and the ability to play a solid center field as well. Losing that production is a risky proposition.
Victorino could net the team a solid return on the trade market, and is in the midst of what's likely to be a career season. While he's a fine player, he's eminently replaceable, postseason hero status notwithstanding.
Another option this offseason is to revisit the Roy Halladay situation with J.P. Ricciardi, with Michael Taylor as a centerpiece for a much-reduced package required for a single year of the superstar righthander. Which brings us back to the payroll question. Or pursue a third baseman from another organization, with Taylor as trade bait.
Blocking Michael Taylor and keeping him in the minors is more than a little unfair to a player who has shown that he's a capable hitter and fielder, but the Phillies have reaped the benefit of keeping solid position players in the minor leagues and allowing them to fully develop there. Ryan Howard and Chase Utley entered the league as complete players, and were All-Stars from the moment they entered the league. There was virtually no major league learning curve, and the Phillies have received the benefit of their peak seasons at manageable cost. Sucks for them, I guess, but it's good for us.
Conclusion: This is a nice problem to have. And I have no idea how to resolve it.
Nonetheless, I have a headache. Aspirin please!
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Taylor=2010 Fourth Outfielder
I think one solution would be to carry Taylor as the 2010 4th outfielder. He could play role similar to Michael Bourn’s role in 2007. Taylor could pinch hit, run and be a late inning defensive replacement for Ibanez. It would be more prudent from an organizational/player development standpoint to have Taylor as the 4th outfielder next year rather than Ben Fransisco.
The only complication here could be that Taylor’s tendency to get off to slow starts might be exacerbated by reduced playing time; he might need regular at-bats to stay comfortable and “get into a groove” so to speak.
I’m mostly speculating, though.
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by WholeCamels on Aug 22, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
But then you’re basically wasting a year of Taylor at the MLB minimum salary. Plus, Francisco is an excellent 4th outfielder to have around, but he becomes much less valuable if he’s the 5th outfielder and he’s virtually redundant to what Taylor does (i.e. he’s right-handed) other than being able to play some CF.
Based purely on age, Werth (who just turned 30) is the most vulnerable, but even this is a bit of a debate. You might project another 3-4 years around this level (maybe, thesea are all career highs) but given his injured/ part-time status up til now, he is, like Ibanez, a “young 30” — and with his athletic pedigree is likely to keep himself in good shape (translation: won’t become a big-bellied PH-only menace like Matt Stairs).
We might look at this the other way: What teams out there are OF-starved that have (pick any/all that apply):
-salary issues
-quality RHP starter
-good young 3B
-good young C
-a salad of high minor league IF &C
I see maybe 3 teams with pieces and needs to do a trade with the Phils. AZ, SF, and maybe Detroit. All 3 could use an outfielder and maybe a 1b. And they have players (SP, 3b) that the Phils could use.
I wouldn’t mind seeing Haren or Cain in a Phils uniform. Or even Reynolds or Drew.
No offense
But I think the likelihood of the Giants trading Cain is about equal with Hank Aaron coming out of retirement and passing Bonds on the home run list.
Most likely scenario: Taylor and Brown spend 2010 in Allentown. Mayberry is Phillies 4th OF. Werth and Ibanez are let go at the end of 2010. 2011 outfield is Taylor, Victorino, Brown & Mayberry. Another year in AAA ain’t gonna kill anybody. Besides, if Werth or Ibanez get injured next year, you may end up seeing one or both soon anyway. Trading one or both would get rid of that insurance.
You mentioned Howard’s contract as a limiting factor in terms of how the team deals with the outfield, but I wonder if he will (or should) get drawn into the discussion more directly.
He’s owed $39 million over the next two years and he’s just not worth that money. As others point out, he struggles with power pitchers and he’s a poor fielder. I know others disagree, but I think he’s really vulnerable to left-handed pitchers. He’s got a career line of .225/.309/.445 against them for his career, which as Matt S has pointed out isn’t bad, but that’s largely propped up by 2006. And they’ve been trending down:
2009: .201/.286/.339
2008: .224/.294/.451
2007: .225/.333/.493
2006: .279/.364/.558
2005: .148/.175/ .246 (63 pa)
Personally, I’d be very tempted to explore that option. You can do a lot with $20 million a year and you have a cheap option to potentially replace a good chunk of his production.
So which one of them is Karl Hungus?
Trading Ibanez is the ideal solution, but his age and price tag—the contract is seriously backloaded—will make that a difficult proposition.
Phils have to look at a tiered solution.
First, try to trade Ibanez. That is a no doubter, even if he hits the WS clinching HR in game 7.
Next, try to package Victorino with a minot leaguer for a 3rd baseman.
Next, try to trade Howard and move Ibanez to 1st base.
Last, trade Taylor.
For Who? My teammates.
For What? To Win.
How Much? Where do I sign?
Getting Value
If you are gunning to turn the outfield logjam into a bigger positive, the best thing to do is to turn one of the assets you have (power-hitting corner OF) into a prime SS or 3B prospect (preferably 3rd as its more urgent). Werth is probably the most logical to net a good third base prospect, as he is somewhat young and is locked up for $7 million next year. While the Phils could benefit from him bringing draft picks if he leaves as a free agent, he could bring them a good piece if they can find a team that will want to get him signed to an extension.
In this discussion, I think it’s important to somewhat separate Vic from the others, because he brings a ton of defensive value in CF. Also, his huge bump in OBP makes him the logical successor to JRoll at the leadoff spot.
Also, for cost control purposes I think it makes the most sense to hold on to Taylor and Brown — rather than trade them for other prospects — and plug them in to the corner spots. They can free up the salary required to hold on to Madson/Happ/Victorino/Hamels/Lee/Blanton in the future (and Howard?)
With both of the two prospects progressing so much this year, I would love to see the Phillies be bold and capitalize on the value of Werth and Ibanez to bring back some young talent to replenish the left side of the infield.
Now that we’ve gotten out the long knives on Howard, the other sacred cow we have to consider is Rollins. Intangibles or not, he’s not going to change.
by Wet Luzinski on Aug 22, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Rollins is so absurdly underpaid compared to his rep if not his actual value (against which, btw, I still think he’s underpaid) that they can’t deal him. Also, who would play shortstop?
That’s a bigger problem and one that might be relevant sooner rather than later (ah cardenas, we hardly knew ye) as Jimmy is on the wrong side of 30 now and the phils have no one in the minors (that I know of) who even projects as a league average short stop yet?
Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned
by jemagee on Aug 22, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Galvis
There is Freddy Galvis…currently slapping his way to a .281 OBP at Clearwater. He is a defensive wizard who’s been said to be major-league ready with glove and arm since he was 18, but it seems his bat will always hinder him and makes him a longshot to ever be more than a spare part at the highest level.
At third base, your best prospect is Travis Mattair, currently OPSing .685 in his age 20 season at Lakewood.
The appalling lack of any decent SS or 3B prospects in the system makes it crucial that the Phils focus on those positions in the 2010 draft, and that they convert their corner outfielder overstock into some usable prospects in those positions.
Oh, and Anthony Hewitt from the 2008 draft is currently playing third in Williamsport. Don’t get too antsy waiting for him, though, as he is about as big of a project as it gets.
I was reading on Phuture Phillies about Galvis and as far as his batting goes, he has tried switch hitting recently and it has gone really poorly. I believe he is at about .270-290 batting average from one side of the plate and .130-150 or so from the other side.
The .270 isnt great, and I dont know the OBP for either side, but it does allow one to be somewhat optimistic about him at any rate. Perhaps he will can the switch hitting or maybe he will be able to get it. Either way, his numbers should improve, though maybe not enough anyway.
I agree though that better depth in these positions is necessary from future drafts etc.
Good points and thoughts to all. Tough question and sure Rueben is thinking about this too.
I would make Victorino untouchable as he is one of our key players and very versiable. I would try to get a trade w/ Raul and/or Werth for some all star infielders and/or pitchers. I don’t think it is real important that the infielders have power as much as being a contact hitter that we desperately need.
We need to consider that we do need to cut payroll so we can sign some of our others and/or keep others in arbitration.
Also, Howard. I WAS one that wanted to trade Howard for Holiday. I would now make Howard untouchable and try to keep him for his life here in Philly. I am extremely impressed with his improvement each year w/ the glove and think he has his best years ahead of him.
Lastly, do we really need pitching? I think we are getting close to the same problem w/ pitching as outfielding.
you can never have enough pitching IMO
If there’s not room in the rotation, you can put guys in the bullpen.
You know that Werth is in his 3rd straight season seeing more pitches per at bat than any other batter in the MLB? That is extremely valuable. Not to mention his 30-35 hr 85-100 rbi 100 runs 20 stolen bases and solid glove at any outfield position!! Why is he being so undervalued compared to Shane? I love them both but, if one had to go it would be Victorino. That being said, I’d rather hold both. There is nothing to say that these guys in the minors will match that production in the Majors and if they do it may take 2 or more years to realize potential. We are looking at the Phils outfield for at least the next 2 years right now.
Good post.
The one thing that really sticks in my mind is that whenever a team seems to have a logjam at a position, a lot of times it seems to sort itself out. Maybe that happens more with regard to starting pitching (e.g. the 2007 Phillies, the 2009 Red Sox), but the old “Hope for the best, prepare for the worst” adage seems appropriate here.
There’s a million directions Ruben could choose to head with the outfield depth we have now, but the overarching point is pretty clear: whatever happens, 12 cost-controlled years of Taylor and Brown are valuable commodities, and they should not be let go on the cheap.
I fail to see the problem. Taylor starts 2010 in AAA and only gets a call-up if really needed. He then could be the starting RF in 2011.
Brown starts in AA in 2010 with a possible call-up to AA later. He then starts in AAA in 2011 and repeats Taylor’s process. He is also insurance in case Ibanez starts acting his age.
Phillies let Werth go after 2010. At this rate he’s due to become a Type A free agent (assuming those rules are still in place) and nets us 2 draft picks. Ibanez will be 39 when his contract is done so he’ll definitely be gone. Two prospects, two open spots.
Werth only gets us 2 picks if he declines arbitration, which might not happen. You have to be careful in that situation, he might just accept a huge 1 year deal.
by philiafan14364 on Aug 23, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I think we should just trade Taylor for a left side of the infield prospect (or Buster Posey, but that wont happen). We should get a good, high upside, young player for him. Then we let Ibanez leave when his contracts up, and plug Brown in there. I think of the 4 OFers for next year, Taylor will be the odd man out.
by philiafan14364 on Aug 23, 2009 10:41 AM EDT reply actions
Trade Raul!
I see no cause for hand-wringing over this. Ibanez is not untradeable. Vernon Wells us untradeable. Ibanez is nothing like Vernon Wells. Ibanez’s age and contract will hurt his trade value of course, but he most certainly can be traded. You only need one thought experiment to see this: If Amaro were to offer up Ibanez (with contract) for free to any team who wanted to take him, do we really think there would be no takers? Of course there would be takers. His contract just isn’t that bad, and with only two years left on it, he isn’t all that big a risk even at age 37.
So the only real question is whether [Ibanez’s trade market value minus Ibanez’s actual value to the organization] is greater than or less than, say, [Michael Taylor’s trade market value minus Michael Taylor’s actual value to the organization]. In my view, both of those differences will probably be close to zero — that is to say, Ibanez will bring a smaller return in a trade, but that’s because Ibanez actually has less worth, and would have less worth to us if we kept him too. So then, it just becomes a philosophical question: do we want a surer thing for 2010, or do we want to take a somewhat risky reload-in-mid-flight approach? I think we should do the latter, because even if Taylor disappoints a bit in 2010, we should still be a playoff contender, and the long-term dividends are likely to be worth it.
I have come around to this point of view. However, I think it’s extremely unlikely that Amaro will trade the guy who was just his big free agent splash after one year, in which he quickly became a fan favorite.

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