Stupid Bullpen Tricks: Pirates 6, Phillies 4

by dajafi on Aug 25, 2009 10:26 PM EDT

Some things just don't make sense. The Phillies have been a pretty good team for years now, particularly on the road--and never more so than in 2009. The Pirates last posted a winning record during George Bush's presidency--the Bush who pretended to like pork rinds and whose memoirs Bart Simpson accidentally destroyed, not the Bush who almost choked on a pretzel. Yet the Phils just don't win at PNC Park, and sometimes they don't-win in particularly weird and gruesome ways. So it was Tuesday night, when Brad Lidge outlasted Matt Capps in an epic "Suck Harder" closer showdown.

With the Pirates leading 3-2 heading into the 9th thanks to a Steve Pearce two-run homer off Phillies starter Joe Blanton, Capps got the first crack. He retired Pedro Feliz on one pitch, then gave up a scorched double to Carlos Ruiz on his second offering of the inning. Two pitches later, pinch-hitter Ben Francisco tied the game with another double; he came around to score when center fielder Andrew McCutchen misplayed another rocket off Shane Victorino's bat for a triple and a 4-3 Phillies lead. Awful as this was, it represented improvement from Capps' previous outing against the Phils on July 11: 1/3 IP, 6 hits, 5 runs (all earned), 2 walks, 2 homers in an 8-7 Phils win.

And, thanks to Lidge, he got a win. Called upon in a dubious decision by Charlie Manuel--it was Lidge's fourth appearance in as many days--the struggling closer wasted no time: a leadoff single by Luis Cruz and a wild pitch put the tying run on second. Pinch-hitter Brandon Moss followed with a hard single to right that Jayson Werth misplayed, allowing pinch-runner Brian Bixler to cross the plate and tie the game at 4. McCutchen came up next, and redeemed his own defensive mistake with a home run to center field, giving Pittsburgh a walkoff win and popping Lidge's ERA, so briefly below seven runs per nine, back up to 7.33.

Lost in the late dramatics were Jimmy Rollins' two home runs in his first two at-bats--each a first-pitch connection--and a gutty start by Blanton in which he lacked his usual location but held the Pirates at bay over six innings but for the homers to Pearce and Ryan Doumit, striking out seven along the way.

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Lidge.

GET HIM OUTTA HERE!

by RoboticParadox on Aug 25, 2009 10:46 PM EDT reply actions

Look at the brightside

At least Lidge was economical with his pitches when blowing the save, this way he’s fresh enough to blow one tomorrow too.

by christonabike on Aug 25, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

I was there

We were going apeshit… 2 pitches later we were going home….

RIP JJ

by MeanGreen5 on Aug 25, 2009 11:02 PM EDT reply actions

Please, Cholly, no mas

0-6, 9BS, 7.33 ERA. What else is there to say?

by Smoker9 on Aug 25, 2009 11:04 PM EDT reply actions

At this point it can only be stubborness.

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by JasonB on Aug 25, 2009 11:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

It’s pretty damn hypocritical, I will say that.

Jamie Moyer and Chan Ho Park were both demoted for poor performance.

I don’t think it is stubbornness though. If Charlie is being stubborn, then that implies he knows Brad Lidge is an abject disaster who (for this season, at least) is FUBAR, and is sticking with him nonetheless. I don’t think that is the case. I think Charlie might be oblivious enough to earnestly believe that Lidge can right the ship this season. Mainly, I want to believe that Charlie cares enough about winning that he won’t let his stubbornness stand between him and winning ballgames.

by FuquaManuel on Aug 25, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Go to Plan B

The guys on TV said Brad is being hit hard and throwing the ball down the middle. There has to be a plan B. We WILL NOT win the world Series after getting Lee and our players doing so well. It is not fair to the team to allow Brad to continue to blow saves. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is stupid. It will not happen.

Brad needs to get it right. Send him to the DL, let him work on it for 2 weeks and try again. I am sure he can get it right but he must be right to continue to pitch. It is not fair to his team mates, not to mention us fans!

by DeanH on Aug 25, 2009 11:08 PM EDT reply actions

Even if we had an awesome closer, it’s not likely we’d win the world series. It’s a crapshoot.

by FuquaManuel on Aug 25, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions

of course the World series is a chance. But my point is why waste money on Lee and trade prospects if we are just giving games away. And great point above about Moyer/Park. Maybe our media will ask Charlie.

by DeanH on Aug 26, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions

Agreed, it’s def a crapshoot. It is nonetheless frustrating because this could have been a 100 win team but for a reliable closer this year. Of course, every team would like to change just one thing about their squad.

Steve Jeltz
.210/.308/.268
"I am a Matt Stairs fan. I celebrate his entire catalogue."

by Steve Jeltz on Aug 26, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions

*unreliable

Steve Jeltz
.210/.308/.268
"I am a Matt Stairs fan. I celebrate his entire catalogue."

by Steve Jeltz on Aug 26, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions

LOL

Lidge sucks

Way to lose to AAA Pittsburgh

by Off The Hook on Aug 25, 2009 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

GAAHHHH

:::pukes, cries, head explodes:::

No more Brad Lidge! At least for a while. Pleeeeeeease?!

That ball hit deep! Way back! You can put it on the boooaaaard...YES!

Long drive into deep right center field! This ball is OUTTA HEEERRRREE!
R.I.P. Harry Kalas 4-13-09

by HappyHuman on Aug 25, 2009 11:18 PM EDT reply actions

I don't know how he stands it

I guess it’s because Charlie is getting paid win or lose, but me, I’m flipping the eff out because Brad Lidge can’t record one goddamn out against the Pirates. If I have to hear Manuel say “He’s my closer” again I’m …. well, I’ll still watch the Phillies, but maybe not Lidge. Seriously, it’s gut wrenching to know that putting him in this year could mean a loss for the team. I really hope Brett Myers is getting some consideration for the closer position, but at this point Lidge cannot be the go-to closer for the Phillies. Experimenting with different closers is a better option than leaving Lidge in there to fry.

Always put off today what can be put off tomorrow.
-Blkfire

by Blkfire on Aug 26, 2009 12:28 AM EDT reply actions

Cripes, no sooner said than I go to CSNPhilly.com and see a quote from ol’ reliable Charlie and his best buddy Lidge:

“We just keep going. We just keep playing,” Manuel said. “That’s where we’re at. That’s our closer. That’s the guy we give the ball to in the ninth inning.”

Now, I’m not in panic mode or anything, but……REALLY?!?? It’s like a broken record. How many times does Lidge need to blow a save before something is done about it?

Always put off today what can be put off tomorrow.
-Blkfire

by Blkfire on Aug 26, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, this is getting even more disconcerting.

His pressers after Lidge losses have taken on a certain — less articulate — Andy Reid quality.

by FuquaManuel on Aug 26, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions

Chicago Bears fans know this pain

“Rex is our quarterback. We are 10-2 with Rex as our quarterback.” That doesn’t mean he doesn’t suck!

AAAAAAHHHHHHH!!! Make the idiocy stoooooop!

That ball hit deep! Way back! You can put it on the boooaaaard...YES!

Long drive into deep right center field! This ball is OUTTA HEEERRRREE!
R.I.P. Harry Kalas 4-13-09

by HappyHuman on Aug 26, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions

This ain't making it

Listen,phellow Phillies phans. We’re propably gonna take the NL East because, really, who else in the division can really play baseball? But when the playoffs begin, every team starts 0-0 and we don’t have a closer. How does not having a closer match up against the Cards, Dodgers, Rox, et al? This problem has to be addressed NOW! Will somebody please wake Cholly up!

by Smoker9 on Aug 26, 2009 12:36 AM EDT reply actions

This is what Brad needs to do,

think!!!! and perform. He is paid very good for that.

http://phuturephillies.com/2009/08/25/between-the-ears-the-mental-side-of-pitching/#more-4212

Call up this guy???? (just teasing but I like this guy).

by DeanH on Aug 26, 2009 12:40 AM EDT reply actions

Just listened to Mitch Williams say what Lidge needs to do. IF I hear he does what Mitch says, I am fine with him trying again. But, IF ALL I HEAR IS I AM FINE, it will be very hard to watch 8 innings of these games and pay for games just to watch Lidge blow them in the 9th with no effort.

by DeanH on Aug 26, 2009 1:12 AM EDT reply actions

'93 all over again

Fregosi sent mitchy-poo out for the 9th – why? because “he’s our closer” – even tho he totally sucked for the last two months of the season.

Charlie must be reading the Fregosi Guide to Losing Championships.

Seriously – what IS the record for Blown Saves in a season? I mean really – how many guys even get a CHANCE to blow NINE saves – and counting???

by SJDinAudubon on Aug 26, 2009 1:26 AM EDT reply actions

Step back from the ledge

A bad loss is not the end of the season. Gee, you might think we’d lost all chance of competing this year. Last time I looked the lead was still 7 games, and the team is on pace to win about 95 games. If you think one guy is holding the team down, then I think you’re selling the rest of the players short. Every time Lidge has a bad game the team responds with a good stretch. Blew the game a week ago Saturday against the Braves and everyone was clamoring for his hide, but the team won 7 of the next 8. Look it up – after a blown save/loss the rest of the team performs better. That doesn’t mean I think it’s fine Lidge pitches badly. But it does mean that a few bad losses hasn’t prevented the team from having an excellent season. And, I don’t think you can make the assumption that the team would necessarily be that much better if Lidge was converting all those save opportunities. Because you know what – that’s exactly what he did last year. But the team record at this point last year was 65-58, six games worse than this year.

by phillyinportland on Aug 26, 2009 1:59 AM EDT reply actions

How long a time period are we talking about when you say “after a blown save/loss the rest of the team performs better”?

Secondly, how can you be so certain of a causal relationship between Lidge’s ineptitude and the Phillies’ near-future success (if that phrasing makes any sense)? A lot of the early season success following Lidge blown saves has to do with their playing the Washington Nationals, it seems.

I don’t think the clamor now is coming from a fear of not making the post-season. Only the New York Mets would break a sweat protecting a seven-game lead in late-August. Historically, it’s extremely tough to blow such a large lead. The clamor instead comes from a fear of late-innings post-season failure a la Mitch Williams against the Toronto Blue Jays in 1993.

I have no problem losing a game, say, against a brilliant pitching performance by Chris Carpenter or Ubaldo Jimenez. They’re great pitchers and there’s no shame in getting beat by the best. When your opponent legitimately earns the win, hats off to them. But when your closer, who has sucked all season, gives up a game-winning walk-off home run to Albert Pujols (part two), that’s just the worst. That’s a pill I can’t swallow. It’s an easily preventable outcome. And most of us have been clamoring for a change since mid-May.

Crashburn Alley

by Crashburn Alley on Aug 26, 2009 6:45 AM EDT up reply actions

After a Lidge loss

I ran all these numbers a couple of weeks ago after the blown save vs. the Braves, so tonight I’ll just give the quick version, after each Lidge loss – five before last night: 4/18 vs. Padres – won 7 of 9 vs. SD, Mil, FL & Wash (the last two); 5/23 vs Yankees – won 9 of 11 vs. NYY, FL, Wash (3), SD & LA; 6/5 vs Dodgers – won 3 of 5 vs. LA & Mets, then interleague play resumed (yuck); 7/7 vs Reds – won 10 of 10 vs. Cin, Pitts, FL, Chi (and 15 of 17); and 8/15 vs. Braves – won 7 of 8 vs. Atl, AZ & NYM, leading into loss #6 vs. the Pirates on 8/25. That makes five streaks, 43 games total, 36-7. Even if you flatten it out to the next 8 games after each loss, since it was only 8 games between loss #5 and #6, then you have an overall record of 31-9 in 40 games. The teams they beat are fairly representative it appears, not weighted heavily toward sub-.500 teams.To me, that means you can’t say that Lidge’s losses have demoralized the team, although they seem to have had that effect on a lot of fans. I am not certain of a causal relationship but what the numbers show is an ability by the team to bounce back as strong as ever despite tough losses.

by phillyinportland on Aug 27, 2009 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions

Bad losses come with the game. That’s how baseball works. However, what’s become the problem is that Charlie Manuel is being hypocritical of the situation. You can’t bench position players who are in a slump for two or three days like Rollins or Howard OR demote starting pitchers like Park and Moyer to the bullpen for poor performances during a stretch of the season, YET reward your closer who has given up nine Phillies sure wins by keeping him in his place. The Phillies have a number of pitchers who can be given the opportunity to try the closer position…at least that way it looks like you’re trying to fix the problem. I’ve said it before that when you step back and look at it, it’s only nine games. However, as the closer, how many more blown saves will it take from Lidge before a change comes? Nine times seems like quite a bit from a division leading team. I wouldn’t think many managers would give their closer that many chances. If the Phillies make it to the playoffs this season, despite the blown saves and possible future blown saves, that’s nice. In the postseason, though, when every game matters, how will anyone be able to depend on an undependable closer?

Always put off today what can be put off tomorrow.
-Blkfire

by Blkfire on Aug 26, 2009 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions

I am not an MLB pitcher.

Therefore, I need clarification on something.

Whenever I ask people “Why can’t we use someone like [Insert Name Here] as our closer?” everyone says the same thing: “[Insert Name Here] doesn’t have the mentality of a closer.”

I understand that the last three outs are the toughest to get in a ball game, and that you really need to have nerves of steel to do this. But I’d imagine you need to be focused and determined no matter what role you play. In other words, I’m sure that someone like Chan Ho Park doesn’t go to the mound thinking, "Hey, I hope I give up some base hits and maybe a run or two. Park in particular is often asked to get 6 or 9 outs, hopefully without giving up any runs. Since he’s been doing this steadily for some time now, I can’t imagine why he can’t be asked to get three outs.

The only things I can imagine are:

1. The mindset of a closer is so entirely singular that no one else in the bullpen even comes close to having it aside from Lidge;
2. Charlie is biding his time and hoping for Myers to return so he can close out games again;
3. Charlie is being loyal to a fault.

I don’t get it. The team lost two starting pitchers in Eaton and Kendrick last year because they were doing poorly. They temporarily lost Myers so he could get his act together in Lehigh Valley. Early in the season, they lost Tom Gordon for good. And despite all that, they managed to become WFC.

Now we have two struggling guys (Hamels and Lidge) and nothing is being done. Hamels at least keeps his team in games for the most part, but Lidge has zero margin for error.

As DeanH said, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is stupid. I’m going to go beyond that and call it insanity. If you keep doing something that is bad for you because you expect it to be good for you one day, you’re not thinking clearly.

I like Lidge and want to see him do well. But to steal an early season self-criticism from Hamels, Lidge is jeopardizing the team. He needs to get his act together in Lehigh Valley, closer’s mindset be damned.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 26, 2009 10:41 AM EDT reply actions

Why?

Can someone answer this question for me? Why does Lidge have to “regain” his stuff in the ninth inning. Why can’t he get some innings in as the set up man, or in blow out games to work on his pitches. I’m all for getting Lidge back to his form from last year, but to throw away games in the “process of getting Lidge back on track” is joke.

by Jland on Aug 26, 2009 12:04 PM EDT reply actions

I kind of like Rich Hoffman’s idea: use Lidge as the “chairman” of a closer committee.

He breaks down the numbers and finds that Lidge with a day of rest this season is fairly close to last year’s model; back to back or worse, and he’s… well, you know.

by dajafi on Aug 26, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions