This Blows Up to 11: Marlins 7, Phillies 6

by dajafi on Sep 23, 2009 11:12 PM EDT Comment 50 comments

Philadelphia Phillies' Ryan Howard prepares to round third base after hitting a two-run home run against the Florida Marlins in the seventh inning of a baseball game in Miami, Wednesday, Sept. 23, 2009. Phillies' Chase Utley also scored on the hit. (AP Photo/Alan Diaz)

4 months ago: Philadelphia Phillies' Ryan Howard prepares to round third base after hitting a two-run home run against the Florida Marlins in the seventh inning of a baseball game in Miami, Wednesday, Sept. 23, 2009. Phillies' Chase Utley also scored on the hit. (AP Photo/Alan Diaz)

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A gutty start from Cole Hamels and another big game from Ryan Howard all went for naught Wednesday night as Brad Lidge blew save number 11 in a dispiriting come-from-ahead loss to the desperate Marlins before a crowd of hundreds in south Florida.

It was about as surprising as the sun coming up this morning. With the Marlins trailing 6-5, pinch-hitter Ross Gload led off with a double over the first-base bag. Chris Coughlan, batting something like .450 against the Phillies this season, somehow only got Gload to third with a hard out to right. John Baker, pinch-hitting for Cameron Maybin, struck out on a borderline full-count pitch that got Florida manager Fredi Gonzalez ejected, and for an instant it looked like Lidge might escape. But he walked Hanley Ramirez on another full-count pitch, quickly gave up a game-tying single to Jorge Cantu, and then after getting ahead of pinch-hitter Brett Carroll 0-2, surrendered the game-winner.

Howard had driven in four runs earlier, two on a one-handed two-run double off the left-field wall in the third, and two more on a homer over that wall in the seventh. Hamels threw seven innings, allowing eight hits and four runs in severe Florida heat, and helped himself with two hits and an RBI. But as usual in 2009, all that was wasted on the altar of Lidge's ineptitude and, sad to say, Charlie Manuel's obstinacy. Insanity, indeed.

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Ruben, where are you?

by FuquaManuel on Sep 23, 2009 11:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

before a crowd of hundreds in south Florida.

Made me laugh.

Maybe I’m just bitter at the loss, but do HanRam and the Marlins really think 7 games back with 9 games to play gives them a shot at the division? I mean, they just celebrated like they won the division. I guess they must like their chances better than the 1.2% playoff odds that Cool Standings gives them.

by PhillyFriar on Sep 23, 2009 11:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Meh, I’m more worried about the Braves than the Marlins. The Braves schedule is a cakewalk.

by doubleh on Sep 23, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh I agree, and to be honest, I’m not terribly worried about anyone barring a total collapse on our part. 5-6 over the last 11 wins us the division… and that’s if the Braves run the table.

by PhillyFriar on Sep 23, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It helps that the Braves and Marlins play each other for 3, too. Someone’s going to lose two games there.

by doubleh on Sep 23, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I"m not worried about either of them – i’m worried about the playoffs

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Sep 23, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well if we keep blowing leads someone is bound to catch us

if we don’t lead by 4 entering the ninth, more insanity will prevail

by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Sep 23, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Brad Lidge blew a couple more saves and the Phillies somehow ended up losing the division, would Charlie be fired?

by FuquaManuel on Sep 23, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That dpends

Can howard eskin make it jimmy rollins or pat burreslls fault

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Sep 23, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes

easily

RIP JJ & HK
Let the future judge Michael Vick

by BadCo'09 on Sep 24, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I understand your frustration but I hope you’re not secretly hoping for that scenario – I’d say if that happened you would still have Charlie Manuel as manager and you’d have the entire offseason ahead to complain about what had happened. I don’t see how that’s to anyone’s benefit, at least not on this site.

by phillyinportland on Sep 24, 2009 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t want it to happen, of course. But if it did, I don’t see how anyone could justify keeping charlie as manager if his brazen disregard for his closers continued failure ultimately ended up costing the team its playoff berth.

by FuquaManuel on Sep 24, 2009 10:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

That’s a pretty ludicrous hypothetical.

by taco pal on Sep 24, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If it costs them playoff games then – which isn’t a ludicrous hypothetical – Brad Lidge is not helping this team at all and ‘keeping him’ as your closer hurts the team, hurts the teams chances, and if Manuel doesn’t see it – it’s a blind spot in his managing technique that should cost him his job.

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Sep 24, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps, except that that was neither the hypothetical that was stated nor the one that I was critiquing.

by taco pal on Sep 24, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True. But John does have a point. It is becoming exceedingly likely that Lidge might wind up being the cause of an early exit from the playoffs. Normally you can chalk up a loss in a playoff series to small sample size, but in the case of Lidge we a a full season of consistent failure to look back on and determine that he should not have even been on the roster, let alone pitching in the 9th inning of playoff games. Would Charlies failure to act iin this case cost him his job? Does he have as long a leash with Amaro as Lidge does with him?

by FuquaManuel on Sep 24, 2009 11:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

Well, it’s definitely a more reasonable point than the one I was responding to above. But you are overstating even what he said.

It is becoming exceedingly likely that Lidge might wind up being the cause of an early exit from the playoffs.

If you have a sentence that needs multiple qualifiers, chances are it’s a stretch. I don’t think there’s a basis for saying that it is “becoming exceedingly likely” that Lidge will even close in the playoffs, let alone blow games. Admittedly, and regrettably, it is a realistic possibility. But the fact that Charlie is using Lidge in close-to-meaningless regular season games does not compel a conclusion that he will use Lidge in the same way in meaningful postseason games. This is especially so if Brett Myers is going to be back – Todd Zolecki himself wrote today that he believes Charlie would be using Myers right now if he were available. Nor does Charlie’s expression of a degree of confidence in Lidge in press conferences necessarily give us an accurate picture of how he would act. People who give press conferences do so with many goals in mind, and the desire to give accurate information to the press is pretty far down that list.

Furthermore, even if Charlie were foolish enough to use Lidge as a closer in the playoffs, that would not make it “exceedingly likely” that he would be the cause of an exit. It would lower our odds by a very non-trivial amount. But it would ultimately matter only if (1) the series were close enough for it to make a difference, and (2) enough of our late-game leads were close enough for it to make a difference. And even ‘09 Lidge doesn’t blow all his saves.

by taco pal on Sep 24, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What evidence do you have that Charlie Manuel is going to change the player loyalty managing technique that has been his style his entire managing career?

Seriously – you nit pick – and then write an awful lot of words that basically say “I think charlie will come to his senses” – but there’s no evidence out there to indicate it.

Last night, after another disaster, he says basically that madson and lidge are the only ‘back end’ options – yet you seem to have some sort of psychic connection the rest of us don’t that means you can tell what’s more likely to happen contrary to evidence, history, and the things that the manager says.

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Sep 24, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

http://www.thegoodphight.com/2009/9/24/1052918/phillies-breakfast-links-september#21722799

by taco pal on Sep 24, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

By the way, what’s amusing is that I was only disagreeing with FM here to the extent that what he said differed from what you said. I didn’t actually disagree with you.

If you read things more carefully, you wouldn’t be so prone to straw-manning. If reading carefully and responding to the actual stuff people write is “nitpicking,” well I guess I’m a nitpicker.

by taco pal on Sep 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What are they supposed to do though? Enjoy it like it’s your last, cause it very well could be.

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Sep 24, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brad Lidge hasn’t turned into the next Armando Benitez?

I still believe in Ryan Garko...........

by 49er16 on Sep 23, 2009 11:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

the only good thing to come out of this loss was cards and dodgers both also lost

so cards don’t overtake us for #2 seed

by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Sep 23, 2009 11:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

with 11 games left , just above .500 (6-5) will get us in

by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Sep 23, 2009 11:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

think about this!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if we go 3-8 (Meetz type collapse)
braves have to go 9-1 or
marlins have to go 9-0
just to force a tie
so who doesn’t think we are a near “mortal lock”??

by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Sep 23, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

From Zolecki's Twitter

Manuel on Lidge: “Him and Madson that’s what we’ve got in the back of our bullpen. He was our closer last year and he’ll be our closer now.”

Jesus. H. Christ.

by PhillyFriar on Sep 23, 2009 11:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I’m sorry.

I love Manuel, but that’s just fucking insane.

The guy couldn’t nail a lead down against a decent high-A team right now.

by dajafi on Sep 23, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree, he could not close a low A team right now.

by DeanH on Sep 23, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly.

I respect the way that Manuel tried to handle this: sticking with Lidge for as long as possible to help him get his “perfect season mojo” back. But this isn’t July anymore. Hell, it’s not even early September. It’s the definition of “lost cause” at this point.

I don’t know who’s next in line to close — I’d still go with Madson, but that’s just me — but quite frankly, I don’t care. I would honestly rather see Kyle Kendrick taking the mound in the 9th inning of a 1-run game at this point.

by PhillyFriar on Sep 23, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I honestly would prefer Tacshner! Well, maybe not!

by DeanH on Sep 24, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess it is time for us to start looking forward to 2010!! This year is officially over if this is the truth, IMO.

by DeanH on Sep 23, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

dean, see my post above

now, of course the PLAYOFFS are a different matter

by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Sep 23, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

we are getting there, it is a matter of how far we go

unless the starting pitching is great and the “O” explodes it may be a short post season

by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Sep 23, 2009 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was not referring to us making the playoffs, I meant winning it all. Of course, ya know, without these 11 blown saves, we would be FAR ahead on Home advantage for the NL. But, no, I do expect the Phils to make the playoffs, just not anywhere close to the World Series! And, I hope I am wrong about the World Series!

by DeanH on Sep 23, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

am hoping we are wrong too

by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Sep 24, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If he’d preserved five of those 11—less than half—we’d be division champs tonight.

It’s unreal that he still has that job. Right now I’d have as much confidence in Adam Eaton closing.

by dajafi on Sep 24, 2009 12:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

Technically, we’d still be like one game away because we won 2 or 3 of those 11 games anyway.

Either way, as horrible as Lidge has been, he hasn’t cost us anything this year (other than possibly homefield which isn’t really very important in baseball). He cannot be allowed to pitch high-leverage situations in the playoffs though, I think we can all agree on that.

by taco pal on Sep 24, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is so foolish. Most good teams don’t even NEED a closer…just look at the PHILLIES. This COULD cost us one or maybe two games in the playoffs. That could kill us and I don’t want to think about it, but to say this year is over is ridiculous.

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Sep 24, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

still ??? are you fucking kidding me ???????

by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Sep 23, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’ve said it for years in other Philadlephia sports and I’ll say it now, there is such a thing as too much loyalty…if Manuel does not see that Lidge can’t close he should be fired because to me that’s not just a flaw with Lidge, it’s a flaw in his managerial style that could come back to haunt in other ways…

Don't frack with me or you'll get a punch in the kidneys...you've been warned

by jemagee on Sep 23, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lidge is awful

But who do the Phils have that’s better? Madson was given the job and failed. Myers is no where near ready to close. Park should have gotten a shot, but he’s hurt.

Who’s left, Eyre? Pedro?

by The R on Sep 24, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs