One Phillies Fan Enjoying Bobby Cox and the Braves' Potential Demise
by David S. Cohen on Oct 2, 2010 12:22 PM EDT
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PrintFrom seven games up to out of the playoffs? With last night's loss for the Braves and the Padres' win, the Braves now sit only 1 game up in the NL Wild Card race. They are still in the driver's seat, but these last two games of the season are big. They just might miss the playoffs.
And this Phillies fan couldn't be happier. For the Braves, with Bobby Cox at the helm and Chipper Jones on the DL, both in their last years, to go from a lock to October spectators would be fabulous. If you're a Phillies fan and you don't feel that way, well, I question whether you're really a phan.
Look, I'd like to say this is just about baseball and that I don't harbor any ill will against the players or Cox the person. But that'd be wrong, because I do. I don't like him, I never have (even when I liked Greg Maddux, Leo Mazzone, and Andruw Jones), and I would love for him to have a devastating finish to his career.
But, it is mostly about baseball and as a Phillies fan, there's nothing I'd enjoy more (with the Phillies long-ago passing the Braves by gaining 13 games on them in the standings over a two month period and having clinched the best record in the NL) than the Braves, our hated rival, losing their playoff spot on the last weekend of play. While playing the equivalent of the Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs. And losing their spot to the struggling San Diego Padres. After having a 7 game lead in late July. In Bobby Cox's and Chipper Jones's last years.
I understand the current numbers and matchups don't make this very likely right now (though it's certainly looking more possible) but I'm not ashamed to admit that it sure would be sweet.
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There…you said it. Rec’d for having the balls to come out and post this. Having the Braves fall out of the playoffs would be so damn sweet. Almost…but not quite as sweet as watching the Mets epic choke a few years ago. I still think it’s a big long shot, especially with Worley on the mound today. But, like you said, you never know. I don’t know when the lineups come out, but I’d like to see almost all of our starters today.
I agree – it’s a big long shot, but it would be great. The Mets’ choke was special in a different way – it was much more sudden. But this would be sweet in a long-term payback kind of way, given the Braves’ dominance in the 1990s (and the longterm hatred that legitimately is directed at Cox and Jones).
Personally
I’d find it funnier if the Giants got swept out of the playoffs, no pat burrel, lincecum, cain, etc.
I think we can handle the braves and the Padres don’t have a high powered offense.
I've been waiting my whole life for an Eagles Championship
RIP JJ
This would be less enjoyable than the Mets choke, but it would be more just. The Mets and their fans are only annoying – with them, the rivalry is mostly just a baseball fight. Cox, in contrast, is a genuinely bad person.
I’m not saying that it’s wrong to root for a wife-beater to help your team. I don’t think that a wife-beater should be deprived of his ability to make a living doing what he does best, once he pays for the consequences of his actions. Nor do I even think that wife-beaters should necessarily be vilified in perpetuity. I believe that all kinds of criminals can be rehabilitated, and that includes wife-beaters.
But for people to not just root for an unrepentant wife-beater, but to venerate him and write him paens like he’s some sort of hero, is wrong and frankly kind of sick.
by taco pal on Oct 2, 2010 1:06 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Wife beater wife beater wife beater wife beater. He will forever be that.
Now, I don’t want him to die or go without food or have no shelter or suffer a slow painful illness. But, I do want him to go without another playoff appearance, especially considering . . . well, considering everything about Bobby Cox.
by David S. Cohen on Oct 2, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
But it’s very, very different. Myers has never tried to set himself up as a “role model”, as Cox has. Plus, Myers has had some very-public attempts at reconciliation and rehabilitation, even if there were some weird other personality quirks (like the bar/van incident). Cox may have done so privately, but has never mea-culpaed to reorient public perception (this was always very strange to me). But while we may congratulate Brett for his athletic accomplishments – and maybe you could do so for Cox – we’ll never suggest he should manage, or win the Roberto Clemente Award.
Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz. Halladay, Hamels, Oswalt.
by Bud in TN on Oct 2, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is there any limit to this?
Just to make sure I understand this issue that is so important to lots of fans on TGP today. This site obsesses over this. What you’re referring to I assume must be the incident in 1995 when Bobby Cox was accused of pulling hair and punching his wife. That’s the only reference I found from a Google search. So, fifteen years ago Mr. and Mrs. Cox got into it, she called the cops, and he deserves to be forever labeled “wife beater.” That sort of moral superiority may sound great – who isn’t against domestic violence, after all – but what is really accomplished. Nothing. It gets tiresome to hear this every series, every time the Braves or Cox are discussed. I don’t care for Bobby Cox because he was a manager who beat the Phillies many times over the years. But he is a man like any other who makes mistakes, and he deserves to be looked at for his overall life, not just remembered for the bad things he did.
by phillyinportland on Oct 2, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with this, and had to endure this for 12 years in Georgia.
I confess, I loved watching Greg Maddux master the craft, especially in 1995 when the Phils weren’t very good and Maddux was other-worldly. However, I never, ever, ever liked Cox, and that was before the beatings came to light. The annoying thing is how he is viewed as a “role model”….and I’ m not joking…Chipper was just shown on Fox saying “Bobby is the most significant role model for me” or something like that…he used the exact “role model” words. Of course, that sentence is itself telling.
Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz. Halladay, Hamels, Oswalt.
If I may defend my team's manager...
Let it go already. That happened 15 years ago. He hasn’t done it since. GET OVER IT.
The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.
by TonyAlmeyda on Oct 2, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He hasn’t done it since.
because, of course, when a wife-beater says he’s sorry and won’t do it again, he never ever does.
by perfectdepth on Oct 2, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it is an appropriate punishment for a wife-beater that he should never be venerated as a “role model” or “great man” for the rest of his life unless he does something really above-and-beyond to atone.
by taco pal on Oct 2, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow.
Apparently, it’s too much effort to forgive a man of his faults.
The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.
He’s not saying don’t forgive; he’s saying don’t canonize/make a king out of him. There’s a difference. I forgive Michael Vick, but I’m not giving him the keys to my city.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
Yeah, that’s pretty much it. Plus, none of us have any basis for “forgiving” Cox anyway, since we were not the offended party(ies). The question of forgiveness is not relevant to the question of how the public should view and treat a public figure. This isn’t a personal matter so much as it’s a matter of principle about what society should value.
Not being the offended party doesn’t mean you don’t have to forgive a person. I’m not asking you to, just saying…
It just seems to me that Bobby’s being generalized for this one action, and that’s unwarranted. That’s akin to saying one car accident suddenly makes someone a bad driver.
The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.
The endless Bobby Cox ballwashing has reminded me of the canonization we witnessed after Steinbrenner died. A parade of fans selfishly demanding that we respect a bad person for nebulous and, in the end, unimportant reasons. I think the real reason Braves fans (and Yankees fans) want us to proclaim respect for these guys is because they’re just so used to thinking of them as demigods, and it must really screw with their worldview when they encounter people who see Cox/Steinbrenner as the imperfect jerks that they are.
by ThinMountainAir on Oct 3, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perfectly said.
Why is it that I don’t give a damn what people think of Charlie Manuel, Jimmy Rollins, etc., but these vast swaths of Yankees/Braves fandom DEMAND that you respect their cretin leaders? Baffling.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Agreed. And, frankly, I don’t really care what kind of people Manuel, Rollins, etc. are. I just like that they seem to be fair and likable while playing the game at a high level. Off the field, who knows and who really cares?
by David S. Cohen on Oct 3, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Off the field, who knows and who really cares?
Yet, when it comes to Bobby Cox, just about everyone at TGP makes such a big deal about him being a “wife beater”. What’s with that? Why are 99% of the users here SO concerned with someone not even affiliated with their team?
The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.
Lots of other teams fans come on this board and have opinions about our players, too. It happens.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
Also, I think what people have been saying around here is really a reaction to a reaction. We started out with some relatively mild disparaging comments toward Cox as a wife-beater. The reaction to that from Talking Chop was absurdly over-the-top (“how dare you question this great man” etc). It is that overreaction from Braves fans that really has us irritated today. The wife-beating itself is, of course, much more offensive in the grand scheme of things, but it isn’t what’s driving the boat here in terms of why we’re “SO concerned”.
With all due respect, you (in general, not personally) shouldn’t have made those comments in the first place.
I know Bobby Cox is far from a perfect role model, but he doesn’t deserve the treatment I’ve seen him get here.
The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.
That’s ridiculous. We’re allowed to insult the manager of a rival team, especially when the insult is completely factually correct, and where the factual basis of the insult really does speak very poorly of its object. Cox may not be the devil incarnate, but he is not a hero and you are wrong to treat him that way. I suspect the real difference here is that you simply don’t see wife-beating as being all that bad of a crime.
Really? The people who support Bobby Cox don’t see wife-beating as being all that bad of a crime? That is jumping to a conclusion based on what seems to be your personal dislike of the Braves fans. And anyone who supports Michael Vick’s comeback doesn’t think dog-fighting is all that bad of a crime? Supporting a person who does something bad in their past does not imply condoning what they did. I agree with you on one thing: we’re allowed to insult the manager of a rival team. But it is not our place to tell the Braves fans that they can’t honor Bobby Cox. That is their decision, not yours.
by phillyinportland on Oct 3, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I stand by what I said. They can honor him if they want, and I never said they couldn’t. But they should understand that he isn’t some sort of world-historical figure who the rest of the world isn’t allowed to make fun of. This isn’t Nelson Mandela. Not only is Cox just an entertainer when you come right down to it, but he also has real flaws as a human being. I see no way that a rational person could get so angry about Cox being slighted in such harmless ways unless that person truly feels that Cox is a great man and moral avatar, and thus, in turn, the only way that person could perceive Cox in that way is by believing that Cox has no really serious flaws as a human being. The belief that wife-beating is a serious crime is fundamentally inconsistent with the belief that anyone who does not show deep honor to Cox is somehow wronging him.
No one said you couldn’t make fun of Bobby, but there are places where you just should not go, and calling him a “wife beater” was, in my personal opinion, in very poor taste.
I’m sure every Braves fan who was around in 1995 knows of what happened with Bobby, so it’s foolish to suggest that we think he’s perfect simply because we defend him from such inane generalizations, or that he’s perfect at all.
The birth of Jason Heyward was God’s punishment for the sins of the people in New York and Philly.
Somehow this has become a discussion of personal qualities, and terms like classy and honor are showing up as if they are the issue in Braves vs. Phillies instead of which team is going to prevail on the ball field. I will just say that I understand you feel strongly about the Cox matter and seem to believe people aren’t taking his alleged crime seriously enough. At least that’s how I interpret your last sentence. I am not saying Cox should be honored but that is an issue for the Atlanta Braves and their fan base, who obviously feel he should. The fact that upsets you so much is what I find perplexing. As I said above, don’t put people into boxes that say Cox supporter/wife-beater not that bad of a crime. And since you bring up Nelson Mandela, I’m sure you’re aware he has also been accused of being a wife beater. An allegation of that nature does not mean a man is guilty. Let’s get back to baseball.
by phillyinportland on Oct 4, 2010 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Eh. It’s gonna be just like when Steinbrenner died. I can make it through that again.
by ThinMountainAir on Oct 3, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
1. I’m pretty certain that not one of us knows exactly what happened between Bobby and Pamela Cox. We just know that she made a phone call to the police. Charges were dropped. Who knows what happened. Definitely, SOMETHING happened; we just don’t know what happened. And it is obvious that he did something terrible.
2. There’s something called forgiveness. Bobby Cox made a mistake that I’m sure he will regret for the rest of his life. What he did was terrible. Are some of us not allowed to forgive him? Forgiving Bobby Cox and being completely disgusted with spousal abuse are not mutually exclusive.
I don’t think Cox is a ‘demigod.’ I never have. I think he is a great baseball manager. His record supports that. His players absolutely love him. Charlie Manuel and the Phillies players respect him. He is old-school and blue collar. I would think that Phillies fans would like that.
You guys hate Bobby Cox because he manages the Braves. That’s the bottom line. If he managed the Phillies, your opinions would be in line with ours.
by ryantex on Oct 4, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Something to think about...
I want the Braves out as much as anyone, but when is the last time that the Wildcard was being played for by a pair of team’s who squandered second half 7 game leads?
by dannijd on Oct 2, 2010 1:08 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
If you assume every remaining regular season game has 50/50 odds (which they don’t), then Atlanta currently has around a 13/16 chance of getting the wild card.
If the Phillies win today and the Giants win, or if the Braves win and the Padres win, it goes up to 7/8. If the Phillies win today and the Padres win, it goes down to 1/2. Obviously, if the Braves win and the Giants win, they clinch.
Small correction: “I’ll will”, supposed to read “ill will”?
That said, glorious. Let’s hope Worley breaks some faces tonight.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Oct 2, 2010 1:37 PM EDT reply actions
Other than the incomparably evil Dallas Cowboys, there’s no professional sports organization I hate as much as I do the Braves. From the whiny bitch and Rush Limbaugh-venerating Schuerholz in their front office to umpire-baiting, endlessly obnoxious Cox in the dugout to generations of imbecilic fisting-fetishist Careys in the broadcast booth to their shamelessly racist and baseball-ignorant fans to the seemingly endless procession of assholes and scumbags—the Joneses, Rocker, Smoltz, Drew, Wagner—who’ve worn their uniform, their suck is comprehensive. Flattening them in 2008 (I think we went 14-4 or 15-3 in the season series) was almost as good as winning the title.
I respect what they’ve accomplished and some of their past (Maddux, Glavine, Jordan) and present (Heyward, Prado, McCann, and those young relievers they seem to grow in a government-funded lab somewhere in the South) players. I don’t think they’re going away. But it would be beyond sweet to send them home for the year with a B-team beatdown this weekend.
by dajafi on Oct 2, 2010 1:46 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Rarely do I respond on the Phillies board. This is somewhat out of respect, as I’m sure most/all of you don’t care at all what I think; and why would you? I must be a complete idiot to be a Braves fan, right?? I mean, seriously. I’m honestly starting to think that you Phillies fans are just full of hate. I know it’s easy to hide behind a keyboard and flex your cyber muscles, but I would love for you to say some of these things in my face. I would hope that you would act civilized, as any sports fan should. Yes, I despise your team. But truthfully, there are far more important things going on in the world. It’s the reason why the Phillies players, along with the rest of the crowd, clapped for the wounded veteran at the game yesterday.
Some of the thoughts on this board are nasty. I get it — you hate my team, and I’m fine with that. It’s called competition. But I hope that you Philadelphia fans, deep down, don’t feel this way. And I also hope you don’t take baseball as seriously as you seem to.
This poster here has decided to hate us because of political beliefs (?), the fact that our manager actually cares for his team, announcers who are dead, and of course, the ‘racist’ fans. That’s right. You just hate us for racism. It’s funny, because when I lived in Atlanta, I had many, many friends who moved down from Philadelphia and New Jersey, and they loved Atlanta. In fact, much of Atlanta’s population are northeastern transplants. Lumping us all as racist and ignorant fans is ignorant in itself. Many of us know more than some of you about the game of baseball, but just don’t brag about it.
My final point is about the players you hate. Yes, you hate Rocker. So do I. So do many other Braves fans. I also hate J.D. Drew, who I consider the 2nd worst Brave of all-time. The man has no character. Wagner? Smoltz? Okay, so if you’re not conservative, you can hate Smoltz for his politics, but if that’s the case, then you may want to generate a long list of players you also hate. Finally, I know you hate Chipper Jones. Everyone who is not a Braves fan hates him. But you can’t deny that as a player, he plays the game the way it should be played. He restructured his contract, taking a big pay cut, so that the Braves could sign Hudson. When is the last time you heard something like that? Wouldn’t you love it if Halladay would do the same in order to sign Werth? Other than cheating on his wife (which, by the way, many athletes are known to do), what has the guy done wrong in his personal life? I honestly question those who don’t respect Chipper on the field, just as I would if someone didn’t respect Roy Halladay’s game.
Sorry for a long rant, but I’m just still shaking my head at the hatred, and I had to speak my peace as a baseball fan, even if it’s for a team that you don’t like. I would like to think that many of you don’t feel this way. You guys had a great season; you should just enjoy it.
by ryantex on Oct 4, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd...
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
I still have rage
about this game. Mind you, I was more a Lonnie Smith fan than a Pirates fan, per se. But cheezit, friggin’ Leyland. I want Cox to reap this whirlwind.
Starts with you, Nite Owl!
Times have changed
Boy, that was some series. 1991, Pirates vs. Braves. Three of the first six games were 1-0 games and game seven was 4-0. Since the Braves were more like the Phillies then, I think I was rooting for the Braves that year, but the next year I worked with the wife of Pirates coach Tommy Sandt so my allegiance switched to the Pirates for the LCS.
by phillyinportland on Oct 2, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
(even when I liked Greg Maddux, Leo Mazzone, and Andruw Jones)
Can’t say I ever liked Mazzone or Andruw, but I was a HUGE Fred McGriff fan back in the day. I also liked Maddux and Steve Avery.
I’ve always hated the Mets a lot more than the Braves, but (a) that’s shifting a bit now, and (b) objectively I can see that the Braves probably deserve it more.
I liked Andruw when he came up. He was so incredible those first couple of years, and so young, that it was hard not to like him (for me). As he grew older, I stopped feeling that way, but I was impressed at first.
Mazzone only impressed me with what he was able to do on the field with the pitchers he coached.
by David S. Cohen on Oct 2, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I kind of feel this way but kind of not. Maybe its because I was too young to suffer the entire reign of the Braves but I would much rather this happen to the Mets than the Braves. I respect what some fans have gone through as the whipping boy to the Braves but for me, I have much more disdain for the Mets.
Add in that some of my close friends are Braves fans and I won’t be that upset to see them make the playoffs. Not that I will be rooting for them but it would be nice to beat them in the playoffs.
Granted that I live in New York and have more than a few friends who are Mets loyalists, but I don’t think this is right. The Mets fans are basically us pre-2007: angry, fatalistic but above all loyal and knowledgeable. The Braves don’t really have fans like that; they’re whiny, entitled and ignorant.
by dajafi on Oct 2, 2010 3:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This. Mets fans have only a few recent bright spots to remain so loyal to their team, yet the Braves had a 14 year stretch of dominance highlighted by the inability to sellout playoff games. I know Braves fans hate when we bring this up, but this is unfathomable to me as a Philadelphia fan.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
I am not really commenting on the Mets fans here. I was just saying I have much more disdain for the Mets team than the Braves, as my fanhood started later than some (most?) of the posters here. Sure, I did not like the Braves at the beginning but I was never aware of their lack of sellouts or anything Bobby Cox did. That’s why I don’t hate them as much as the Mets.
If Phillies fans get to be castigated for throwing snowballs at Santa Claus from now until the end of time, I believe it’s only fair that Braves fans get to be ridiculed in perpetuity for not showing up for playoff games.
Doesn’t it seem like somebody or some organization in Atlanta should have stepped forward and made those empty seats available to inner city kids or some other group that would have really appreciated seeing playoff baseball? Maybe not at first, but if you have the same thing happening for a couple of years, you’d think somebody should have noticed it and done something.
by phillyinportland on Oct 2, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Braves eliminated, Cox speaks
“We have great fans. They packed this ballpark the last five games.”
-Bobby Cox, 10/11/10
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