Victorino, Ibanez, Blanton?
The Phillies payroll sits at $143 million for 2011 with Durbin and Francisco (and obviously Werth) unsigned. Anticipating that Contreras will leave via free agency, Durbin will be signed for another couple years by the team, Francisco will be offered arbitration and Kendrick will be non-tendered, let's figure on about 4.5 million between the two, which puts the team at 147.5 million with a big hole in RF and a few spots to fill on the bench.
Clearly the Phillies are going to have to go get a right-handed bat with some pop (Manny Ramirez? Magglio Ordonez?). Even projecting them for a payroll of $150 million means they will need to clear some salary in order to do that.
The way I see it, the three most likely pieces to be moved are Victorino, Ibanez, and Blanton.
Here is the Phillies roster, as it currently exists, for the 2011 season:
SP:
Halladay - 20
Oswalt - 16
Hamels - 9.5
Joe Blanton - 10.5
SP5 Open
Regulars:
1B Howard - 20
2B Utley - 15.3
SS Rollins - 8.5
3B Polanco - 5.4
C Ruiz - 2.75
LF Raul Ibanez - 12.2
CF Shane Victorino - 7.5
RF Open
Bullpen: (plus .25 Romero buyout)
Lidge - 12
Madson - 4.8
Baez - 2.75
Bastardo - minimum
Open
Open
Open
Bench:
Schneider - 1.6
Gload - 1.6
Francisco - arb1 (1.5)
Valdez - minimum
Open - infielder?
-7 million from Oswalt trade + 2 minimum contracts for Bastardo and Valdez = $146 million and 6 open spots to fill. A fifth bench man will come cheaply, as will at least 1 or 2 interior replacements in the pen. I would guess the Phils go sign one fifth starter/reliever type in free agency (like Contreras) who winds up in the pen alongside two out of the Mathieson/Zagurski/De Fratus/Schwimer/Rosenberg group. If Kendrick comes back cheaply he will get to compete with Vance Worley for the fifth starter spot. I can't see the team paying Kyle any more than a million to 1.5 either in arbitration or after a non-tender.
At any rate, the team is pretty much going to be right up against my projected $150 before finding a right-handed bat to replace Werth (or the remote possibility of re-signing Werth). So someone needs to go to make room for that to happen.
Ibanez, with his $12 million salary and declining production, is probably the guy RAJ wants to wash his hands of the most. He looked brutal in the playoffs and for stretches this season. That said, Fangraphs still had him for 1.8 WAR and $7 million in value this year.
Blanton produced similar value to Ibanez. Fangraphs had him at 1.9 WAR this year, right in line with his career norm of 2 WAR per season. So he's getting paid about for precisely what he gives you. He's obviously more attractive than Ibanez because he is cheaper, younger and more productive for that money.
Then there's Victorino, who produced another good season this year with 3.6 WAR. At that production, his $7.5 million salary for next year is about half of his worth. He is roughly the same age as Blanton but cheaper and more productive. He is the Phillies most trade-able regular at this point.
Trading Victorino isn't ideal because, while you likely get full salary relief and some kind of prospects in return, there is no viable center fielder for full-time duty unless the front office thinks Domonic Brown can play there...unlikely as his routes are still raw in right field.
Trading Blanton is also not likely because (a) they couldn't find a market for him last year when he was $2 million cheaper, and (b) that you leaves you with Kendrick and Worley as your 4 and your 5, not exactly ideal given Worley's limited track record and Kendrick's track record of mediocrity.
That leaves Ibanez. No one will trade for him and pay the full bill. I'm hoping the Phillies can find a suitor if they throw in 4-6 million in cash to the trade and get some kind of bench player or bullpen piece in return. That would give them 6-8 million in salary relief, enough to get some kind of decent veteran to take Werth's spot in the lineup and in the field. Brown and Francisco can have some sort of platoon in RF and whoever is signed can play LF, with Gload spelling him on occasion.
If Ibanez proves untradeable (possibly), Victorino could be moved and the Phillies would then make do with Francisco in center field. Considering Francisco produced 0.7 WAR in 197 PAs this year, albeit with most of his fielding coming in LF, he projects as a possible 2 WAR player as a regular, which is perfectly league average and would be just fine.
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In the more improbable than Sergio Romo hitting a home run in the World Series category, I propose a trade of Ibanez for Abreu straight up.
Baseball: the only sport whose commissioner wants you to think it is still 1960.
by phillies fan in bowie on Oct 26, 2010 10:43 PM EDT reply actions
Clearly the Phillies are going to have to go get a right-handed bat with some pop (Manny Ramirez? Magglio Ordonez?).
It’s clear that they have to over pay over the hill players? WHy?
by SportingFanaticism on Oct 26, 2010 11:54 PM EDT reply actions
Manny Ramirez is no longer physically able to handle playing left field as an every day player and has said that he will be seeking a deal as a DH in the American League for next year. Even without this, I think he is a very bad choice to come here both due to his age and past actions with other clubs.
by dannijd on Oct 27, 2010 3:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Trading Vicotirno is foolish unless you
A. Re-sign Jayson Werth
B. Believe Domonic Brown can play center field.
My belief is that A is as likely as me having sex with Lucy Liu in the next six months.
My belief is that if B were possible it would have happened already cause, well, center fielders who can hit like Brown are just harder to find.
Moves that ‘plug’ one hole only to create another never make sense to me. It’s how Billy King ran the sixers for years after he was finally put in charge, it’s a horrible horrible idea.
by SportingFanaticism on Oct 26, 2010 11:56 PM EDT reply actions
Not that I disagree with you on the likelihood of retaining Werth but
What about putting Werth in Center and Brown in Right? Werth did not loom Terri ke there while Victorino was on the DL, and he is definitely a better fielder than Brown right now.
by dannijd on Oct 27, 2010 3:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Next years team could easily be the best team this franchise has ever had. Theres no reason to go out and get a RFer. The Francisco/Brown platoon will work fine.
by philiafan14364 on Oct 27, 2010 12:22 AM EDT reply actions
But, if we were to go the right handed RFer, a dark horse could be Jermaine Dye. He would have played last year, but never found the right fit. He was still a productive hitter two years ago, so he could at least warrent an incentive filled contract.
by philiafan14364 on Oct 27, 2010 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions
How do you figure?
You have a lefty dominant team, and the only right handed power bat is leaving to be replaced by a combination of another lefty and Ben Fran? Thank goodness the games are not played on paper because that looks worse to me.
by dannijd on Oct 27, 2010 3:12 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I am aware. However, I am also aware that it is impossible to win if you do not score runs, regardless of how good the pitching is. Baseball is not football where you can score on defense. How do you figure that next year’s team (other than an extra half season of Oswalt) is better than this year’s?
It’s an extra 2/3 of a season of Oswalt, not 1/2 a season.
Despite their struggles, the Phillies were a top-10 run scoring team, and lest you think that CBP masked the offensive woes, the ballpark has played pretty neutral over the last three years. Losing Werth is going to hurt the offense but an effective platoon could come close to replicating his production.
Meanwhile, the Phillies might reasonably get improvements from each of Rollins, Utley and Howard. And Oswalt providing Kendrick insurance means that while it might not be reasonable to expect the 2011 Phillies to be the best team in franchise history, it’s not that unlikely.
How do you figure that Oswalt is Kendrick insurance?
by dannijd on Oct 27, 2010 5:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Every Oswalt start means one less start by whoever the crappiest Phillies starter is. I’m assuming that’s Kendrick but substitute Worley or Moyer or whoever you like.
Which means that whoever Oswalt is protecting me from having to watch has to be worse than Kyle, as I was still stuck watching him every fifth day.
That’s partly because Moyer got hurt, and partly because Charlie and/or Rube was too stubborn to jettison Kyle.
Do I really need to explain that Oswalt makes the rotation better?
Does he make it better? That is indisputable considering the moving parts involved. However, invoking him as Kendrick repellent does not work, as despite having the former, this team has been stuck with the latter. What Oswalt was, ironically, is J.A. Happ repellent as the former caused the latter to disappear. Every start from Oswalt means one that is not spot started from triple A- it does not mean one less start from Kyle Kendrick when Kendrick was still in the rotation.
That ought to be Leanne Literal, as Danni is a she.
She’s got a point too. Kendrick is still likely to be starting games. He shouldn’t, but unless Worley turns out to be much better, or Moyer comes back, or we trade for Lee, we’re going to need a #5 starter, and Kendrick is the likeliest option, sad to say.
Thanks Larry Literal
I’m aware of Danni’s gender.
The better the top of the rotation is, the less important the bottom. I clearly didn’t articulate this point well.
Brown
He needs to play every day, at least until he proves he’s not ready. Say a month at least. Francisco could and should platoon with Ibanez in the meantime.
You said he “needs to play every day.” The Phillies, as evidenced by their actions in not returning him to the minors once Victorino was healthy, felt otherwise this year.
While they’ve said all the right things about him needing the at-bats, etc., I think that is just so he continues to sharpen his game over the winter and doesn’t come into spring thinking he’s guaranteed a starting spot.
Actions speak louder than words. Dom Brown is a Phillie to stay unless he struggles tremendously.
My original comment was in jest.
I think Brown stayed with the Phillies once VIctorino came back because Howard was hurt and they wanted another lefty bat on the bench, and once Howard was back there just wasn’t enough of the minor league season left that they felt they were costing his development significantly by keeping him up, so they kept him to get him a taste of the stretch run.
Next year I agree he’s with the big club to stay unless he’s terrible – or they manage to re-sign Werth. If that miracle happens, Brown goes to AAA to refine his game.
I tend to think his August in the majors was necessitated by Ross Gload’s August spent on the disabled list- they wanted a lefty bat off of the bench, and Brown was the best of the possible choices. As for September, he spent part of that month hurt (He got pulled the night the Phillies clinched because of a leg injury), and I think he was planned as a September call up anyway). I don’t read too much into this as to projecting his future.
I disagree
Brown needs to be eased into a starting role
by philiafan14364 on Oct 27, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Confidence. With a platoon, hell be facing mostly righties at least early on which should be easier for him to approach and hit.
by philiafan14364 on Oct 27, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Similar to what they did with Utley his first full year
by philiafan14364 on Oct 27, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
He can develope a better eye for major league pitching. If hes clearly overmatched right off the bat, then it really doesnt help him too much. If he faces easier pitching for him (ie righties), hell be eased into what major league pitching looks like. Once he seems to be breaking out, then we make him an everyday player.
by philiafan14364 on Oct 28, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, I’m not clear on why this is preferable. What does it do to his confidence if you tell him “we don’t think you can hit lefties” and bench him against them? You get to develop a better eye for ML pitching by facing ML pitching. Sitting against 1/3 of them is only going to slow that down.
Ok, lets put this a different way. At the start of the season, Brown went from ‘A’ ball to ‘AA’ ball. They didnt send him straight to AAA becasue they didnt feel he was ready, and if he was overmatched by the pitching there it could hurt his development. Its the same thing here. If hes getting destroyed by lefty pitching, that will hurt his confidence, which will hurt his development. You need to progress as a hitter, and I think being the left handed half of a platoon would be the perfect way to continue his progression.
The Phillies arent outright saying they dont trust Brown, so much as they need to get a right handed bat in the lineup. But, for arguments sake, lets assuming Brown takes it to mean they dont trust him. I honestly dont think that would hurt his confidence as much as actually getting dominated by lefties.
by philiafan14364 on Oct 29, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
@philliesfan14364
that dude is wasting your time.
I read what you wrote, it makes sense.
I think a better answer
Is that Francisco mashes lefties, so unless Brown can OPS .900+ against lefties it’s a better proposition to have BenFran in there.
Also, the lefthanded half of the platoon is still going to see at least 60% of the starts, so there’s plenty of PT for Brown in there, and it’s a good way to see what kind of player BenFran can be with regular at-bats.
We have to consider what's best for Brown though
If the Phillies don’t think Brown is ready to start against lefties, he should be in the minors so he’s getting regular ABs against them, not riding the pine.
I’d personally prefer to pencil in Brown as the full-time starter in RF and make LF a straight platoon. We’re not risking Ibanez’ development by benching him against lefties.
fair enough
but Raul OPSed .728 against lefties in 2010. Is it realistic to think Domonic will do better than that?
ignore
that dude they are criticizing and insulting you.
a 3 letter post?
He has gone bye-bye, and it was involuntary. BANNINATION.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Oct 29, 2010 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Damn.
Oh, wait, you weren’t talking about me.
I probably shouldn’t have baited the poor guy in his thread, but he proved so utterly impervious to reason that it was hard not to.
Oh, no, now my rejoinder to his assertion that Mike Schmidt was intentionally deprived of the Triple Crown in 1981 by a cabal of baseball executives will simply remain unpublished. The fun is gone.
by phillyinportland on Oct 30, 2010 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions
NOOOO. Now I will never be able to convince him of the advantages inherent in proper paragraph structure.
Seriously though, he was almost certainly a troll of some kind. No one is actually that oblivious. Thanks.
by ThinMountainAir on Oct 30, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I really don’t think Francisco could cut it as a full-time CF. He’d be a good hitter for that position, but his defense is very poor. It’s no worse than Raul’s, though, so he could play LF against lefties.
okay
I’ve only been following baseball for this season
But, is it possible that we trade ibanez, be able to resign werth, and then have brown/francisco play left field?
EAGLES!
by xADx GoGreen4Ever on Oct 31, 2010 7:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Trading Ibañez will be difficult because of the money involved- he is due eleven million next year, an amount that he is going to be hard pressed to earn through his production. Because of this, he is practically untradeable unless the Phillies pick up some of his salary or take on another bad contract, either of which would defeat the purpose.
It is doubtful that the organization goes for a plan that puts a platoon involving Brown in left field. Asked in an interview last summer about putting Brown in left, RAJ responded that Brown was a RIGHT fielder, giving the impression that the organization did not see him as moveable.
by dannijd on Oct 31, 2010 9:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I am all for moving Vic
Frankly i thought he played bad last year and hurt us in ALOT of games offensively. He is horrid from the left side too. If they had another OF that was near as good defensively, i think Vic would be moved.
Victorino’s poor year offensively is part of the reason not to move him if you think that he will rebound- you never want to sell low on a player. Further, his career platoon splits are much smaller than his platoon splits were for this year (only a twenty point difference career), and part of the huge split this year was hitting truly sensationally (.321) against left handed pitching. If I remember right, his hitting from the right (along with his defense) improve following a stint on the DL (he went on for an oblique strain, but had been struggling with issues with his throwing shoulder in Spring Training. Some, including me, think that the shoulder injury caused him more problems than anyone was willing to admit, and that more than his oblique healed on the DL.
by dannijd on Oct 31, 2010 9:55 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions

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