Moyer, Dobbs become free agents

by essman on Oct 29, 2010 5:49 AM EDT

t looks like the end for Jamie Moyer and Greg Dobbs in Phillies uniforms. The Phillies said today that Moyer and Dobbs, who was eligible for salary arbitration, have become unrestricted free agents. Both players could return in 2011, although it is highly unlikely. The Phillies placed both players on waivers earlier this week to expedite the process for them to become free agents, which is a pretty good sign they don't plan to bring them back. Once they cleared waivers, each player filed for free agency.

From Zolecki.

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Not surprising...

As much as I hate to see Moyer go, I am not surprised that is what happened, nor do I blame the team for not making efforts to keep him considering the last two seasons as a whole. I wish him the best of luck in the Domican League this Winter and in his career- I hope that he is able to continue to play until he is ready to retire.

by dannijd on Oct 29, 2010 11:03 AM EDT via mobile reply actions

I'll admit to being a little miffed...

…about Moyer. This strikes me as a more cordial version of what happened with Brett Myers last year — he may have rankled the front office a bit, but instead of waiting to see how the market developed and whether he could possibly be brought back on the cheap, Amaro is simply cutting ties.

Coming off the injury, I don’t see there being a ton of interest in Jamie, and you could do a lot worse as far as organizational depth goes (assuming Jamie’s amenable to coming in for a 5th starter’s competition). And not to keep beating the anti-Kendrick drum, but Jamie’s 2010 bested Kyle in SIERA (4.42 to 4.94), xFIP (4.49 to 4.81), K/BB (3.15 to 1.71), and just about any meaningful statistical category. Even in the one area where you’d think Kendrick would hold some huge advantage — ground ball rate — he actually only holds the slightest of edges (44.5% to 44.1%). Yet somehow the front office seems convinced that Kendrick’s the guy there going forward.

by PhillyFriar on Oct 29, 2010 11:30 AM EDT reply actions

I like the Myers analogy

by Boundforbeach on Oct 29, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions

Amaro

This early mover stuff is going to be his downfall. His unwillingness to wait to see how the market develops at all is short-sighted.

Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.

by doubleh on Oct 29, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, agreed. The carpe diem mindset has served him well in the trade arena (the Lee, Halladay/Lee, and Oswalt deals obviously rank as a net positive), but haven’t been so helpful on the free agent market (Ibanez is the obvious name here, but think of lesser names like Baez and Castro too). You’d think he’d learn from the fact that some of his better signings — Contreras and Valdez spring to mind — have been low-cost, late-in-the-game guys, but no luck so far, it seems.

by PhillyFriar on Oct 29, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions

In his defense, that carpe diem mindset worked out pretty well for us last year when when he raced out of the gate and signed Polanco at third base before the market was established for Beltre and Chone Figgins. We all gave him alot of heat for that but you can’t argue that decision now.

As for Myers, I would have liked to have seen us take a chance on bringing him back last year on the cheap, but clearly Ruben didn’t want him back at all.

by Boundforbeach on Oct 29, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Wait, what do you mean you can’t argue the Polanco decision? Beltre signed for a lot more than Polanco, but was a far better player. Polanco managed a very solid 3.7 FangraphsWAR with good defense, but Beltre played excellently both ways for 7.1 WAR. Sure, Beltre was for one year and cost an extra 4 million, but frankly I’m not so sure the extra couple of years for Polanco aren’t a negative, considering his age.

To be clear, Chone Figgins was a disaster and Pedro Feliz was even worse. So Polanco wasn’t the worst move they could have made; he’s still a good defender at least.

by Rujasu on Oct 29, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions

I’m not suggesting Polanco’s better than Beltre. But all things considered, Ruben got pretty damn good value for Polanco this year at 5.1 mil compared to 10mil for Beltre and god knows how much he’ll get for his next contract. I would have loved Beltre, but RAJ apparently was never prepared to shell out big money for that position. He targeted Polanco early, signed him to a very reasonable contract, and got good production out of him. While RAJ has been roundly ripped for jumping the gun in the past, it happened to work with the Polanco signing. That’s really all I was getting at.

by Boundforbeach on Oct 29, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Problem is that Polanco is still signed for two more years.

by phatj on Oct 29, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions

All things considered, that’s not a problem. He’s a gold-glove caliber 3B/2B who can hit .300.

Remember some of our previous third basemen?

by Phrozen on Oct 30, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I disagree

Being better than the worst player in the league is not a high enough standard.

by phatj on Oct 30, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Polanco is actually pretty good at what he does. He’s certainly a better 3B than Ibanez is a LF or Cody Ross a human being.

by Phrozen on Oct 30, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Definitely. While I would love to give him a greater sense of plate discipline and a concept of the strike zone, and maybe a touch more power, he is not horrible. His defense is sharp (I would not be surprised if he won a Gold Glove this year), and he does manage to collect hits, neither of which are bad things. He may not be the best third baseman out there, but he is far from awful.

by dannijd on Oct 30, 2010 7:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

I agree that Polanco is very slick with the glove, and defensive systems seem to agree. Fangraphs’ WAR lists him as a well-above-average overall third baseman, despite accumulating virtually zero value with the bat.

However, back to my original point – he’s signed for two more years. He’s a lot more likely to get worse between now and then than he is to get better. Not only with the bat (and if he gets any worse, then his bat is going to start detracting from his value), but with the glove. You know what a worse-hitting, worse-fielding Placido Polanco looks like? Pedro Feliz.

by phatj on Oct 30, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Sure, in the same sense that a worse-hitting, worse-fielding Placido Polanco also looks like Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg.

Polanco is about thirty steps above Feliz. He’s probably five steps below Beltre. Would I rather have the former Mariner? Absolutely. Would I MORE rather, say, fix the bigger holes in the lineup? Like, say, the bullpen? The outfield corners? Evenmoresolutely.

by Phrozen on Oct 30, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Polanco had a total WAR of 1.8 this year. Feliz had a WAR of -.4. According to Baseball-Reference, anyway.

Beltre is better, at a WAR of 6.1. But is the $5M difference between Beltre and Polly worth more when applied, say, towards signing Oswalt or Halladay? What if we didn’t get Roy One, because we couldn’t afford him?

by Phrozen on Oct 30, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Again, my point – while Polanco seems to have earned his salary this season, he’s very likely to get worse in the next two years. Boundforbeach’s comment that “While RAJ has been roundly ripped for jumping the gun in the past, it happened to work with the Polanco signing” may look considerably less true in two years. That’s all I was getting at.

I wasn’t ever comparing Polanco to Beltre, nor even to Feliz except to illustrate what Polanco might look like after a significant decline.

by phatj on Oct 30, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Ok, fair enough. I misunderstood—thought you were suggesting that Polanco’s 2010 was evidence of him being a bad pickup.

Hopefully you’ll be wrong about ‘11 and ’12. We’ll see.

by Phrozen on Oct 31, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Is it possible that he’ll actually be better with the bat next year than he was this year, due to his having a healthy elbow?

Contreras and I were just looking at him eating this iguana thing over white rice and he put it away like it was a double cheeseburger, you know?

by LeepinLizardz on Oct 31, 2010 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Polanco had 3.7 WAR under the Fangraphs system.

by taco pal on Nov 1, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions

I read somewhere that letting Moyer go early was to facillitate his participation in the Dominican Winter League. Could that be true? Also, other than letting Moyer become a free agent, did the Phillies have any options that would not have left them on the hook to offer Moyer another contract regardless of how his rehab goes? If there wasn’t, then I understand letting him go now- there is no guarantee how Moyer recovers from this injury, and you can’t completely blame the Phillies for not wanting to be on the hook for his salary without knowing how it is going to turn out.

by dannijd on Oct 29, 2010 1:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

My understanding is that, in order for Moyer to play DWL ball, he either needs to be under contract or a free agent, and that the Phillies don’t want to sign him until they see how he does.

This may be a stretch, though. I just hate to see him go.

by Phrozen on Oct 29, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions

That makes sense. And as much as I hate to see him go, I can understand the Phillies decision to not give him a contract until they see how he is going to do… My heart wanted the Phillies to give him a contract- he is a good guy, a good starting pitcher, and a great mentor to the rest of the pitching staff. My head knows that the team’s resources are limited and shouldn’t be spent on a long shot.

by dannijd on Oct 29, 2010 2:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

The man would be a likely upgrade as a pitching coach

Hint, hint, Mr. Rube.

by Cormican on Oct 29, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Likely? Definite.

by essman on Oct 29, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Never understood the Dubee hate. I don’t think he’s outstanding or anything, but jeez.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Oct 29, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I dislike his personality but yeah, there isn’t really any factual evidence that Dubee is either a particular bad or a particularly good pitching coach.

by taco pal on Nov 1, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions

I don’t hate Dubee, I just think Moyer will make a very good pitching coach, and I’d like to see him stay in the organization. My comment was more Moyer love than Dubee hate.

by Cormican on Nov 1, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions