Some Phillies Links For You, October 6, 2010: It Begins!!
by WholeCamels on Oct 6, 2010 8:26 AM EDT
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PrintPhillies' three star pitchers bring unique skills to the mound
Roy Halladay: Nunchuks; Cole Hamels: Explosives/demolition; Roy Oswalt: Master of Disguises
Halladay Ready For First Playoff Start
Of course he is.
Salisbury: Fifteen Defining Moments in Phils' Season
The theme here seems to be "injuries," which is as good an assessment as any.
2010 MLB playoff preview and predictions - The Toronto Observer
Yay Canada!
Silently, Rolen returns to Philly
Every time I read that Dallas Green quote, I want to punch him (Green) in the taint. That said, I hope Rolen doesn't get booed too badly, although in my heart I know better.
A big Phillies postseason would be Werth plenty
No, Jayson Werth is not going to get a Carlos Beltran contract. He's 31.
The unpredictability of predictions
Yeah, the fact is, no one can say with any certainty that a team will win a particular series. Nervous?
Phillies Set Postseason Roster, No Shockers - SB Nation Philly
Inclusion of Greg Dobbs was a necessary evil, and made much easier by the need to only carry 10 pitchers.
NLDS Predictions: Expect Phils pitching to topple Reds
Shorter McCaffery: I'm the doom master. The Phillies could slump. Expect them to slump. Still, Phillies in 5.
The 2010 MLB Playoffs Rootability Index: Helping You Decide Who To Root For In October - SBNation.com
Turns out the Phillies are the second-least "rootable" team. Behind, of course, the Yankees. Bonus guest appearances from some of our favorite people in the Comments...
ESPN experts: Who's going to win? - ESPN
18 out of 27. I do not like this one bit.
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Those comments on the likability index are a pain in the ass. I have no problem with people disliking the fact that the Phillies’ payroll is pretty high, but equating that payroll with “evilness” is inane. Yes, the disparity between rich and poor that this highlights is evil, but that’s not the disparity between the (rich) Braves and the (richer) Phillies. That’s a political/moral point, not a baseball point. Were I a Braves fan, I’d be thrilled that my team’s front office and scouting were good enough to maintain competition, even at a lesser salary.
Which is not to say that I’m not sympathetic to the moral/political point; rather that, if you hate the Phillies for the economical unfairness of their payroll, you may as well hate all teams, great and small, since their owners make a stupid amount of money regardless.
Also to that point, I don’t really ever hear Phillies fans these days complaining about payroll. They’ve invented this mythical “Bad Phillies fan” for their strawman arguments and are sticking by it en masse.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Yeah that one’s just weird. “They booed Santa Claus” has been good enough for these people for 40+ years, why the sudden need to just start making stuff up?
I guess some people disparaged the Yankees’ payroll a bit last year. But there’s nothing inconsistent about that.
Haha, i can’t tell whether that’s dry humor or sarcasm; either way, it’s good snark. That said, though, the grousing about the Yankees payroll — which I definitely got in on — is based on some (not all, but some) of the same fallacies. Even 200+ million dollars doesn’t protect you from bad decisions. It gives a pretty crazy margin of error, yeah, but it’s not Godmode.
Disclaimer: This is not to defend the Yankees, per say, who are still perenially loathsome.
Once again, it’s the presumption that choosing a team to root for is a political choice, and that these Philly fans who rally around some Philadelphia sports stereotype exist. The boring truth is that politics play into sports choices much less than region or even uniform coolness quotient. I doubt a Braves fan, had they grown up in the Delaware Valley, would not root for the Phillies only because they found them unsavory or classless or whatever.
When reasons for not rooting for the Phillies include the following, I find it hard to get too worked up about it:
- Mike Sweeney is too mean
- There are too many Phillies fans
- There is too much Phillies merchandise around
I actually see it as a positive — people root for the underdog, and let’s face it, underdogs are that because they typically lose. The next time the Phillies are endearing will probably mean we’ve lived through a number of lean years.
I don’t know that any Philadelphia team has ever been considered an endearing underdog. The fanbase doesn’t have the “lovable losers” tag that the Red Sox carried or that the Cubs still do.
Never found either the Red Sox or Cubs fanbase to be that loveable to be honest. It’s all a load of media-created crap. Why must we put everyone in a box?
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
I’m only arguing media created perceptions, not reality. Cubs fans destroyed Steve Bartman for doing something any other idiot in the Stadium would have done (and several other people did, Bartman was just the poor SOB close enough to actually touch the ball). Plus they’re wine drinking pansies who think they were cursed by a goat, and that’s just moronic.
I noticed that Jim Caple is predicting a rematch of the ’08 WS. I also noticed that he is NOT predicting a Rays sweep.
I would hate that rematch. I really have a fondness for the Rays and think of Joe Maddon very highly as both a person and Manager. I’d feel kind of bad for beating them again, and I’d, of course, feel bad if the Phillies lost. I’d rather face the Yankees and hit like 15 consecutive homers against AJ Burnett.
I think if the NYY started Burnett in the WS (should they get there, and I don’t think they will), the Bronx really would start burning.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
Good news-Bad news
Playing in Tropicana Field would avoid possible disruptions that might push the Series back deep into November (rainouts/freezing temps in Minneapolis or New York City). Games 3-5 would be played as scheduled. The drawback is, who wants to play there? That field has zero charm, numerous hazards overhead, and Astroturf, for goodness sake.
by phillyinportland on Oct 6, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m kind of interested to see November baseball in Minnesota just for the spectacle. What if it snows?
The only other outdoor postseason series held in Minnesota was the 1965 World Series. This was before divisional play, so the series ended on October 14. First pitch temperature was disappointingly warm at 50 degrees and overcast. No temps available for Games 1, 2, or 6.
I am also incredibly thankful that we won’t have to deal with Chip ‘FISTED!’ Caray on any kind of national broadcast. I am not aware as to which crew on TBS will be doing our games for the series – but I hope it’s at least a fair crew, if nothing else.
Brian Anderson and Joe Simpson.
Anderson’s the PBP guy for Milwaukee and has handled the Divisional series the last few years. Can’t remember if he did in ‘07, but definitely did in ’08 and ’09. I’m not his biggest fan, but he seemed pretty fair from what I remember.
And there goes the hope for fairness.
by dannijd on Oct 6, 2010 10:52 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Everyone picking the Phils is making me a little nervous. I feel like a team that had the worst record in league heading into the draft lottery. We have the best odds but it is hardly a guarantee. But at the same time I wouldn’t trade spots with anybody else.
I know what you mean. Then again everyone picked the Yankees last year and it turned OK for them.
by schmenkman on Oct 6, 2010 10:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I know what you mean. I went to jury duty this week and was among about 200 people called. Only 46 were needed for the panels. Pretty good odds, but I was one of the 46. Damn the odds!. Fortunately, I talked my way out of the trial and I’m able to watch some playoff baseball this week.
by phillyinportland on Oct 6, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Because it’s underhanded, mean-spirited, and counterproductive to call a player out in the press like that.
Rolen didn’t exactly handle the whole affair with grace and aplomb, but what Green did was inexcusable.
And it continued until Charlie put him in his place, I think it was in 2008 after Green made those comments about Burrell and the “broads.”
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Fair enough, but I still don’t believe that Green and Bowa drove Rolen out of Philly (and I know you didn’t make that suggestion).
Rolen was an arrogant malcontent who spent the better part of two years complaining about the playing surface, our committment to winning, the integrity of our senior management, and the quality of the pitching staff. Despite this, we offered him an ungawdly contract which, if memory serves correct, would have made him the highest paid player in baseball. He, in turn, demanded a clause making him a free agent if the team’s payroll ever fell below the top 5 in baseball. What a complete ass. So, why I agree that publicly commenting about a player is not a good practice, I kind of feel like he got what he deserved. Let the boos rain down.
by Boundforbeach on Oct 6, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I fall somewhere in the middle on this. I think Green and Bowa were the most at fault, but Rolen deserves blame as well.
I’ve heard it argued that Rolen’s actions spurred the Phillies on to their current successes. I do not agree with this. I think the Phillies ended up doing exactly what they would have done anyway, except that they replaced the Rolen part of their budget with Jim Thome. What spurred them on to their current successes were (1) the rise of David Montgomery, and (2) the ballpark.
The rise of David Montgomery. This is interesting. I rarely hear credit given to him. Has anyone done a post on this?
by Boundforbeach on Oct 6, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
That and Rolen was kind of right. The field in the Vet was God awful, the pitching staff was, in fact, terrible and it did look kind of likely he would rot away the rest of his prime years on a team only slightly better than the Pirates. However it played out, he wasn’t entirely wrong, at the time.
I don’t agree. Yes the Vet was terrible, but CBP was already well underway in 2002, when the relationship went south. (Ground broke in June 2002, approval had been obtained well before that.) The Phillies were just coming off an 86-win season, and it was perfectly foreseeable at that time that the team would become a contender in the near future: the lineup was young and good (second in the league in OPS+), the farm was relatively strong, and revenues were clearly about to increase.
Basically, I don’t think the Phillies of that era did anything wrong. When Montgomery was elevated in 1997, the Phillies were a terrible team with a terrible farm system. He and Wade pursued a slow, farm-based rebuilding plan, which is exactly they should have done. Rolen suffered through the 1997-2000 period, but it would have been foolish for the team to sign veteran FAs in that time period. You don’t build a long-term successful franchise on the backbone of FAs, you use FAs to put an existing sound organization over the top. The Phillies didn’t have a solid base of young talent in place until 2001, which was the first year they finished over .500 without FA help. They were also two years away from the opening of the ballpark at the end of that year. It made perfect sense for the Phillies to begin the FA phase of the rebuilding process in 2003-2004 under the circumstances. Rolen blamed them for not starting it earlier, which would have been stupid. He based his complaints on the fact that the Phillies hadn’t spent big money for the first five years of his career, when they shouldn’t have been spending big money during any of those years, and he claimed that the Phillies’ past practices proved that they wouldn’t spend money in the future when it was actually obvious that the Phillies’ past practices were not relevant to what they would do in the future due to changing circumstances.
by taco pal on Oct 6, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In hindsight I agree completely, but if I had been in Rolen’s shoes and my job consisted of getting yelled at by Larry Bowa 160 times a year, playing on a terrible field (for at least a few more years) and given the team’s history had no guarantee that the team would sign the right FAs or develop that talent in the system into viable MLB contributors, I probably would have been looking to get out as well. And as WC says below, a large number of fans were saying the same things.
Fair points well taken. Again, Rolen was far from an innocent party, but weren’t we saying lots of the same things about the Phillies around the same time?
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Sure…we were all thinking what he said. But employees who trash their employers usually don’t stay around very long (e.g, Randy Moss). It bothered me that he did all this complaining and we rewarded him by offering him all the money in the world which he rejected. All this demonstrates is that he never wanted to be here— which is fine. But he should have just kept his mouth shut and waited it out.
by Boundforbeach on Oct 6, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I personally have my doubts about that contract offer, but I have no evidence to cite. Just a hunch.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
I also see the quote as emblematic of the misguided organizational decision to have a Darth Vader-like presence on your payroll as a “senior advisor,” whose defining zeitgeist you can boil down to:
All players (and ESPECIALLY PITCHERS) should be tall hardasses ready to throw down…just like me!
wholly independent of performance. I’ve never met the man, but I’ll bet if you bring up an advanced stastistic in his presence, it will be impossible for him to relent from using the f-bomb in the next 5 seconds.
Assuming that is Dallas Green, wasn’t he one of the tallest players in the game when he pitched for the Phillies? Interesting that he’s apparently also one of the foulest-mouthed advisors.
by phillyinportland on Oct 6, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
When did hating the Phillies become old hat?
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I don’t think people really hate the Phillies per se. They hate the idea of Philadelphia fans. Not surprising given the media portrayal. They see it as being as essentially a criminal fan base, not unlike Raider Nation or the supporters of English football teams like Millwall.
TP…I was in London a few years ago for a Soccer game…West Ham vs Millwall. I personally am a West Ham fan and though the violence at that game was very toned down compared to some of the things I have heard and read it was still pretty intense.
Have you ever seen the movie Green Street Hooligans?
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
That’s the one about the Inter City Firm, isn’t it? I haven’t seen it, but would like to. I’m not really a follower of soccer myself, just someone who’s curious about it and likes to read about it. It seems like West Ham is a pretty good English football analog for the Philadelphia sports fan. Perennially bad team with violent working-class fans in an otherwise cosmopolitan city.
West Ham actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Street_Hooligans
I can’t say it’s a great film or anything like that, or that it’s necessarily accurate but it is good. IMO
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Maybe we should adopt this Millwall chant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_one_likes_us,_we_don%27t_care
You’re right. The hatred or at least, strong dislike seems to be more directed to the fans than the team, though at times the line seems to get blurry.
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
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