Cliff Lee Is Back! Deal Worth Upwards of $120M, Possibly $135M
by David S. Cohen on Dec 14, 2010 4:18 AM EST
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PrintAlmost 800 comments after midnight east coast time calls for an overflow thread. The latest from the twitterverse at 4am east coast time (why in the world am I awake?!) is that the deal is worth $107.5M over 5 years, with Lee getting a $12.5M buyout after that fifth year or a $27.5M vesting option. The total value of the deal could be $135M over 6 years.
That's a lot of years and a lot of dough, but ponder this, as Jayson Stark put it: the Phillies will now have the MLB leader in WAR (Lee), the NL WHIP leader (Oswalt), the NL Cy Young (Halladay), and the best lefty ERA in the second half of 2010 (Hamels).
Other than on the fifth day, will they even need a bullpen other than Lidge and Madson? And on that fifth day, maybe they should just let their bullpen get its work in?
Final thought: at the end of September, I wrote about how the Phillies have fundamentally changed as a franchise in a way that's hard for us long-timers to truly comprehend. Well, if this past season wasn't proof enough of that change for you, the cognitive dissonance from hearing 1) that the best free agent pitcher on the market 2) came to Philadelphia 3) over the Yankees while 4) leaving tens of millions of dollars on the table is just staggering.
This is a radically different franchise than it was five years ago. It's fun to be along for the ride.
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What are the chances
Ruben manages to trade Blanton by throwing in Tyson Gillies & trades Baez & Phillippe Aumont?
If Cliff Lee were still here then we wouldve
Gotten him on a better deal
by philsfreak6 on Dec 14, 2010 6:23 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I’m gonna have to hire a dominatrix dressed in a latex Phillies uniform who will hand cuff me to a radiator and whip me mercilessly for a week while a pitching machine fires tastykakes at my face before I believe this shit.
something tells me you’ve had this fantasy before the Lee signing :)
by Boundforbeach on Dec 14, 2010 7:16 AM EST up reply actions
I'm simply amazed
In the end, all those ‘rumors’ about him wanting to get back here wasnt rumor at all. His wife loved it here and I remember reading about how upset she was that they had to leave. We can finally put it all to bed. C
ongrats Phillies, Congrats Cliff, Welcome home!
MLB Network Replaying Game 1 of the 2009 WS right now
Jesus, I didn’t even realize I’d been up all night.
I may not sleep until April.
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 14, 2010 7:18 AM EST reply actions
By the way...
whoever made this:
Wins so much more than the internet. This is so full of WIN, science has yet to advance to the point of being able to calculate JUST HOW MUCH WIN this is.
Now let’s get those other 3 their rings.
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 14, 2010 7:21 AM EST reply actions 12 recs
this is awsome.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Dec 14, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
My favorite part of this has to be:
A. Cole’s smug-face.
B. Oswalt’s “sorry-National-League-maybe-next-year?” face.
by Senor Octubre on Dec 14, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Good God
Didn’t even notice the EPIC SMUG on King Cole.
Get that man some sunglasses, STAT!
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 14, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
That is smug which would make RAJ proud.
by Senor Octubre on Dec 14, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
I went to bed just before midnight, thinking nothing was going to happen.
My God, I’m dumbfounded. I literally have no idea what to say right now.
Thanks for the early xmas present Mr. Amaro!
You ARE the best GM in baseball!!
and have a merry xmas yourself!
I feel like that guy who shows up to the party with a case of beer...
after everyone else is already passed out on the floor…
Oh well, F it…our boy’s coming home!!
Merry Cliff-mas to all!
Ok that gooey shit aside, I don’t really know how I feel about this.
I love Cliff Lee.
I love Cliff Lee being a Phillie.
I loved the Phillies 3 year limit on pitcher contracts.
I love that Lee spurred the Yankees.
I love the Mets and Braves, mostly the Braves crapping their pants now.
What I don’t love…
5 year contracts for pitchers.
The possibility that Hamels may be traded before his contract is up here.
That we are, if not already have become the Yankees…(actually this one doesn’t bother me that much)
So all in all I guess this news is just full of win…
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
who said Hamels may be traded?
"Why do you step onto the field...? I don't believe in pressure. I don't believe in what may be said on the outside. Why do I step out onto the field? To Prove That I Am The Best!"
-Donovan McNabb
Giants Fan from MCC here
First off: 
Well Done Ruben on getting Lee.
As a diehard Giants fan from MCC, I have had only good experiences here at TGP and I feel like most Giants fans from MCC have a soft spot for the Phils, I know if the Giants aren’t in it I’m rooting for the Phils. Don’t know why I have no connection to Philly, but for some reason I like the Phils. I always liked Doc, and when he went to you guys, it only added to the like of my second favorite team.
Now I must say that Halladay+Hamels+Lee+Oswalt is = or > Lincecum+Cain+Bumgarner+Sanchez.
I look forward to this year’s playoffs when we will see you in the NLCS again.
"Yo Paul, if it hurts, don't swing." - Mike Krukow
Zito: 7 Yrs $126 Million
6 Pack of beer and a month of TV: $70
Sitting down to watch Zito Strike out Helton looking on a Curve four times: Priceless
Giants <3 Phillies
Because the Phillies also hate the Dodgers is my guess. Not the deep, year-round existential hatred that the Giants fans have, mostly an October thing.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Do we really hate the Dodgers? I mean, it’s hard to hate a team you owned two years in a row when it mattered.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Hate scale (for me at least)
1. Mets
2. Braves
3. Yankees
4. Dodgers
by Boundforbeach on Dec 14, 2010 8:24 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with that.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
apropos of this
Yankees just signed Russell Martin.
If they can get him off the weed, this is a good signing for them.
Leaving LA and its medical marijuana worked for Werth, so why not Martin
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Sort of the devil moving from the third circle to the seventh circle of Hell on this. Meh.
I am not a witch.
by RememberthePhitans on Dec 14, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty close, but Braves are number 1 for me.
by The Gang Wins the Cup on Dec 14, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
The Phillies/Dodgers hate is sporadic but when it crops up (late 1970s/early 1980s, 2008/09), it’s pretty rich.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Lopes is still out.
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 14, 2010 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
Fortunately, Cliff Lee can handle the running game.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2010 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
and
he can handle a bat. man i love this sh*t!!!
by PHIGHTINPHILS on Dec 14, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
So how about this wife thing?
Rumor is big reason he signed here was because his wife wanted NO PART of New York after being spit upon.
Eagles- 9-4, sitting in first place, and looking mighty fine
Phillies- Cliff Lee.... HE'S BAAAAAAAACK!
Anything is possible. I certainly wouldn’t blame her for feeling that way.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I am a bit curious to see if there’s a pattern of NL FAs (1st timer category) who were beaten by the Yankees in the WS who chose not to sign there. My hypothesis: It’s such a soul-wrenching experience that you’d sacrifice millions of dollars for revenge.
For this I can appreciate Werth, but I can love Lee.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 14, 2010 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
Does anybody else...
…appreciate the irony that for years, oh Philly fans are the most classess in the nation and blah blah blah and then Cliff Lee is rumored to come here because of classless Yankees fans?
Let the beasting begin.
by TransplantedFan on Dec 14, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
google doesn't lie
http://www.crossingbroad.com/2010/12/do-not-spit-on-cliff-lees-wife.html
if you have ‘autofill’ on, and you type in ‘cliff lee wi…’, google will autofill it with ‘cliff lee wi….fe spit on’. it’s being searched rampantly i’m sure.
by PHIGHTINPHILS on Dec 14, 2010 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
Googles Auto Fill – an abuse of AJAX in my opinion. Just showing off all their servers
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Not only do the Phillies have the NL WHIP leader, they now have the top three WHIPs in all of baseball last year
How crazy is that? The top three WHIPs among qualified starters in the MLB last season were as follows:
1. Cliff Lee – 1.00
2. Roy Oswalt – 1.03
3. Roy Halladay – 1.04
(FYI, Hamels was tied at 22 with 1.18)
So the top three the pitchers—in terms of fewest baserunners allowed per inning— are all on the Phils this year. Simply Awesome!
34 1/2
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
That was my question — do Lee and Halladay have to duel with pistols at dawn for number 34?
by The Gang Wins the Cup on Dec 14, 2010 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
will my
cliff lee baby blue jersey shirt w/34 on it be worth more than the $15.95 i paid for it at modells?!!?!? i’ll have to get a frame then won’t i…?
by PHIGHTINPHILS on Dec 14, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
A random thought I think
What’s the chances of trading away Blanton and some prospects to land Zack Greinke?
I don’t know. If we really wanted to land Grienke, we’d have to throw a few athletic, light-hitting fourth outfielder types into the mix.
by ThinMountainAir on Dec 14, 2010 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
I think the Royals are becoming the Clippers of baseball.
Sure they draft well, but hey they’re always near the top of the draft, but they never keep their draft picks after they’ll earn the big money. I’m sure Moore probably makes a tidy profit of some sort each year (ala the Clippers) but doesn’t care so much about the winning.
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Moore is the GM, so he’s on salary. You are probably thinking of the owner.
They haven’t really had any draft picks to keep that Moore picked, since he only became GM in mid-2006. Most of the Royals’ current bad period came under Allard Baird, who was just bad at everything, including player development. Greinke’s the first top-notch young player Moore has had an opportunity to deal.
And it actually does make sense for him to deal Greinke. He’s going to reach free agency before the prospects are ready anyway. The key for a small-market team like KC isn’t to keep their young players, but to try to time their development so that they’re all in their cost-controlled years at the same time. Moore’s problem isn’t the overall philosophy that he’s implementing, but the fact that a lot of his temporary stopgaps are so bad.
My cousin played with Moore at George Mason in late 80s. He said Moore wasnt as dumb then as he is now. Or, at least, wasn’t as dumb as he is portrayed to be now.
by Pedro45 on Dec 14, 2010 8:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t think Moore’s a dumb guy. He did a great job with the Braves in player development, after all. And I think that if he actually deals Greinke, he’ll get a solid return for him. It’s just that some people simply aren’t cut out to be general managers, and I think Moore falls in that category.
he’s really, really good at that part of the game. and a lot of his picks weren’t no-doubters.
but he’s woefully overmatched at the whole building-a-good-major-league-roster part. his comments after signing Melky Cabrera AND Jeff Francoeur were stupendously Amaroesque in terms of smugness:
“Melky Cabrera broke into the major leagues at 21. I think he played 101 games in center field in 2009 and if memory serves me right, he was on the field playing center field when the Yankees won the championship in 2009.”
“We targeted Jeff and Melky months ago as players we felt were not even at the prime of their careers yet, haven’t peaked.”
by perfectdepth on Dec 14, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
Alright Ruben, Let's see what you got!
by andyreidswaistline on Dec 14, 2010 8:45 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
new catch phrase:
(since we sold out all home games last year)
last year we had a full house, this year we got 4 aces…
™
by PHIGHTINPHILS on Dec 14, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Awesome…
Two thoughts:
For what?
And really? Despite having 5 solid starters and Wake already?
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Their depravity and hatred for the Yankees knows no bounds. I’ll bet this was worked out in advance to further fuck the Yanks.
by Boundforbeach on Dec 14, 2010 8:50 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed…it’s funny, the Sox were always my 2nd favorite team…my dad grew up a Sox fan, and I enjoyed rooting for a team that hated the Yankees more than I did. But as they got better and actually won a World Series…or two, rooting for them lost it’s appeal. I can’t explain it, but it’s almost like part of the fun of rooting for them was knowing they would never get it done…except they did.
Now with the Phillies being what they are I can just sit back and enjoy the Sox trying to stick it to NY over and over and over again. Though I will admit I do still root for the Sox, at least to win that division. I am a huge Lester and Beckett fan. I met Josh at my cousins wedding(they were in the Marlins farm system together) and he was a real stand up guy. Shared a beer with him…actually a few, dude can throw them back. As for Lester, I just really applaud the over coming cancer story and pitching lights out in the 2007 playoffs.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I like this:
But out of left field Monday night, the City of Brotherly Love broke up the near-certain pinstriped brotherhood of Sabathia and Lee. Philadelphia pulled another Rocky Balboa and threw one of the most improbable punches in the history of the great American sport known as free agency.
~Ian O’Connor @ ESPN
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
by EREX21 on Dec 14, 2010 8:49 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Stallone is going into the boxing hll of fame, i hope he takes that damn statue with him
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Cupcakes to Red Sox.
It must suck to be a Yankee fan and be unable to partake in the party.
by Pedro45 on Dec 14, 2010 8:51 AM EST via mobile reply actions
What a great day to be alive.
Friend asked me how this rotation would rank with Braves of the 90’s, What years would you look at and what stats would you suggest comparing to make a determination?
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
Mike & Mike
Are talking about how Lee’s wife got spit on in NY and that was part of the reason he didn’t sign with them.
It’s probably for the best that the spitter is not identified
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 14, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
OTM
Reporting that Blanton will not go to Boston
http://www.overthemonster.com/2010/12/14/1875508/red-sox-will-not-acquire-joe-blanton#comments
Can we skip winter?
remind me when catchers and aces report?
by irons21 on Dec 14, 2010 9:11 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
See people are wondering where this cash came from, which is understandable. Think of it as what we were going to give Werth (which we would have said the same thing if by miracle he signed) plus about 3-4 million extra a year. The contracts we have structured are great. I feel in the end it’s going to be Howard’s that we hate the most unfortunately.
So we ride this amazing staff for one year and see what happens, maybe Oswalt will want to stay on the cheapo end just to pitch in this rotation. Next up…. resigning Hamels.
Back to the outfield though, I’m kinda pumped for next year to see what RAJ can do to replace Ibanez!
It splits up a righty and lefty.
Halladay-R
Lee-L
Oswalt-R
Hamels-L
Thats why I would do it that way.
Samesis
Unless it’s the playoffs it doesn’t amtter does it really?
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
Do you think it even matters in the playoffs though? Maybe a little more than the regular season but not by much.
I think in a 7 game series a thing like that can matter yes (or a 5 game series) . Being down 2-0 in a series is demoralizing at least a little, and i hope if it comes to the playoffs charlie will make his rotation setup a bit more based on the lineup they’re facing.
Plus, the sooner you use the lefties (or righties) the more available they are later in the series. I’ll take the late series pitching advantages anywhere you can get em
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
No, but it doesn’t really let the other team set their lineups. It’s always good to have at least one lefty going in every series.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
I don’t think it matters that much. Maybe a little that a team cannot have some continuity in their starting lineup but any benefit is minimal at best.
The benefit to doing it is mainly against teams with lineups that favor one side of the plate more, or mainly their best hitters are heavy on one side.
The phils are a prime example. Teams have no problem throwing lefties at us back to back because of Utley, Howard, and Ibanez. Werth mitigated it a bit, but now that he’s gone, Domonic Brown makes it even worse.
With the quality of these 4 guys, it’s not really all that much of an issue, but I think it’s safe to say it will be R-L-R-L-R (Blanton if he’s here or Kendrick if he isn’t). It’s just “smarter” baseball to do that instead of R-L-L-R-R.
But what does it matter from game to game though? In game is one thing to make teams burn batters, but having a starting pitching rotation like that is not a major added benefit.
I just don’t think with starting pitching, it matters as much that you rotate R-L-R. I would want it in a starting lineup and be able to do it out of the bullpen but it does not seem like a bonus when a team can set a lineup before the game based on the pitcher.
Take the Phils this year. Let’s say they platoon Fransisco/Brown in left. RHP they bat Brown, LHP Fransisco. So one game Fransisco plays, the next Brown plays with the other off the bench. It is known before the game who will start with the other available.
That does not really put us at a disadvantage, in my opinion. Especially in a big series/playoffs, I want the best pitchers first, even if we have 2 LHP back to back.
Well, you’re talking playoffs. I’m talking more about regular season here with the 5 man rotation.
If it went R-L-L-R-R you’re in a situation where you are pitching 3 righties in a row. That could hurt you if you come across a team that is lefty heavy. Whereas if it is staggered, you’ll only have 2 righties back to back.
Playoffs, you no doubt go with the best guys at the time.
But how many teams drastically alter their lineups based on the handedness of the pitcher? You’re bound to get a platoon guy or two, but it would be like that no matter what pitcher throws.
Like last year’s Phillies, for instance. What would have changed if the opposing team threw a lefty on Monday, and a righty on Tuesday?
But how many teams drastically alter their lineups based on the handedness of the pitcher? You’re bound to get a platoon guy or two, but it would be like that no matter what pitcher throws.
Exactly, not many teams change their linuep that drastically based on the pitcher. One or two guys maybe but not wholesale changes.
And again, it does not matter since it is the next game. In game it matters but it does not matter from game to game.
25% of the phillies starting position players would have their batting stance affected by the starting pitcher…don’t forget that switch hitters tend to have a strong side and a weak side
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that it can change how a lineup looks from game to game. But is there a benefit of pitching R-L-R-L instead of pitching your best pitchers in a row (and going R-L-L-R)? You get more starts from your better pitchers over the course of the season.
Well those 4 would always pitch their spot in the rotation. It’s the 5th guy that might get skipped once in a while. So technically they’ll all pitch at least their 32 games barring injury.
So just based off that, why go R-L-L-R-R when you can go R-L-R-L-R and have the nicer setup?
You’re not staggering to cause platooning, you’re doing it to limit two righties falling in to a series against a strong left handed hitting lineup back to back and vice versa.
Plus, Lee and Hamels throw the same pitches at similar velocity. 4seam, Cutter, Changeup, occasional curve. Hitters would key in on that… especially if they went back to back games.
Saw this on Twitter:
Clever, I’d say.
Formerly known as "flyrsfrk05"
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Dec 14, 2010 9:32 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Damn
That was going to be my afterwork project. Back to the drawing board…
"Ninety percent of this game is half mental" - Yogi Berra (SI, May 14, 1979)
by bandwagonesque on Dec 14, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions
well you could do KISS, but then someone has to be Peter Criss (gotta go orignial line-up) and that ’s the same problem you have with Fantastic 4 – someone has to be Human Torch.
I assume Cole would be the Invisible Woman?
"Ninety percent of this game is half mental" - Yogi Berra (SI, May 14, 1979)
by bandwagonesque on Dec 14, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
/WIP’d
"Ninety percent of this game is half mental" - Yogi Berra (SI, May 14, 1979)
by bandwagonesque on Dec 14, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Kendrick is Herbie.
I am not a witch.
by RememberthePhitans on Dec 14, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
Man, you gotta stop hating on the Human Torch. If anything, Invisible Woman is the weak link. Or the Thing? C’mon. He’s a poor man’s Hulk.
by Senor Octubre on Dec 14, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
THe Hulk is walking aggression with no intelligence behind him (except for those brief times they gave him ‘grey’ hulk and banners brain and that was just stupid)
Things Funnier than Hulk.
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
The Thing’s funny in a guy-you-know-who-might-be-clinically-depressed-but-makes-light-of-it kinda way.
by Senor Octubre on Dec 14, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Also just saw this posted on Facebook: http://www.cliftonphiferlee.com/
Formerly known as "flyrsfrk05"
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
That’s so full of win.
Anyone know when the press conference will be?
Schadenfreude is a dish best served cold. Sorry, the Yankees, but you lose.
by LeepinLizardz on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
The thing that Lee-Halladay-Oswalt-Hamels ALL have in common is they are incredibly hard workers, that’s truly the only way you can be a dominate starting pitcher. Read the scouting reports, perfect your pitches, KYS and have fun with the game.
Truly, that last one is the difference between the greats and the goods. Those four guys love the game of baseball, that’s why they are able to work as hard as they do and pitch as long as these guys have.
Point is: These guys have the stuff, and have the track record of durability. That’s why you can go 5-to-6 years with a Lee, with a Halladay.
Compare that to the Nationals giving a 7 year deal to a 32 year old who benefited not only playing behind the RH Bat of Howard but also by not being the guy.
He’s being asked to be a key guy, to give it his all and as we learned from his antics last year: He might not be one of those glue guys in the locker room. I find that’s gonna be a very bad contract.
There are guys you break the bank for, and guys that frankly aren’t worth it. Cliff Lee, is a true talent. Jayson Werth, is a glue guy on a title team.
I don’t know about Amaro and Manuel, but I feel like D-Brown can be a glue guy for us. 15 homers, .300 average, couple of doubles and solid defense.
I’m not as ecstatic as the rest of you, but I’m content. That contract seems pretty reasonable, and that’s what’s important.
I’ve been thinking about it from a marginal utility standpoint ….I mean 4 aces? Overkill? Maybe a little. It’s crazy and our GM is too. Still I’m all smiles.
Or maybe Ruben really hates Cliff Lee and just signed him so that he could trade him again just to fuck with him.
by The Gang Wins the Cup on Dec 14, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
I thought that, wouldn’t that be something though. I’d give RAJ some huge props in a way if he turned this into a top starting OF’er and some young pitching.
giggle
I mean 4 aces? Overkill?
Hey, whatever it takes.
We won with 2 1/2.
Not a member or affiliated with McCOVEY CHRONICLES in ANY way/shape/form.
Despite all my hoarsely screamed threats SBNation cannot delete them from my profile.
by victor frankenstein on Dec 14, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
We won with one… Of course we lost with three, but who’s counting.
by The Gang Wins the Cup on Dec 14, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
It’ll be interesting to see what the phillies get (if anything) for Blanton if it really is a salary dump then was it the best use of available resources when you’ve got bigger issues than adding a fourth ace?
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
No, it wasn’t. But since we also got Lee at what appears to be a slightly sub-market rate, it won’t hurt the team either.
I realize it works out differently, but 120 mil over five years is 24 mil per year (average)
That’s more (per year) than the yankees 7 year 150 million (reported) offer.
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Why was Cliff Lee Traded in the First Place? Wherein John Finger shows that even re-signing Cliff Lee won’t end the media’s handwringing over Cliff Lee.
Don't get too excited yet.
I’m not going to believe that all four aces will be in the rotation till opening day. Reuben is trying to move Ibanez, Blanton or Kendrik to free payroll, but what if someone made a deal for an outfielder centered around Hamels now?
Say, Arizona. a guy named UPTON. You’d have to listen, right?
by Joe Catanzariti on Dec 14, 2010 10:48 AM EST reply actions
Except that since you like to believe all rumors, Arizona isn’t shopping Upton and never really was.
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
Does Oswalt still have a no trade clause? Trading Hamels would be stupid being he is the only of the top 4 under 30.
I could see Oswalt traded, but I have the feeling we stick it with the 4 for one year. (That and given RAJ trade history with top pitchers for prospects, we get crap)
I also don’t believe we trade Ibanez, who the hell we going to sign to help there. How about Ibanez, Blanton, and Kendrick for C. Quentin… crappy deal prob, but I’d take it.
I woke up this morning and turned on my only real source of non LA sports – -ESPN Mike & Mike and they touted the ‘top story’ after the break which i presumed would be hand wringing over favre and his ‘streak’ (eagles play sunday night december 26th, hurray flex scheduling) and then they give me the head line and i think i said what like 15 times in a row, it’s still baffling.
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 10:49 AM EST reply actions
Jerry Crasnick reporting that Amaro is hard at work on a deal to ship Joe Blanton elsewhere, presumably in a salary dump.
This is from the other post and if true disappointing to me in that Blanton, while the #5 in Philly is still an affordable strong #3 pitcher and shouldn’t be moved for a salary dump and means that while signing lee is great they’ve got no money left to work out the outfield issues
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 10:51 AM EST reply actions
this, a thousand times
to Boston for Cameron could make sense? depending on how healthy Cameron is, obviously, and that’s a pretty big question mark.
by perfectdepth on Dec 14, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Thought about how Cameron would fit in Boston with Crawford in the OF the other day
Cameron had a sportsman hernia and but aside from that I don’t know his injury history. Good fielder, pop and has some scoot. It works for me.
Blanton’s contract is very reasonable for his talent. But for a #5 it is quite high. I just wish we hadn’t tendered KK, though it will be nice to have him for depth.
He isn’t a 5 though – he’s a 3 – he just plays on a team with 4 aces. He improves the rotation of most teams he joins – including probably Bostons, and he shouldn’t just be dumped. If he’s sent away for meaningless prospects I’ll be aggrieved
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t see how his spot in the rotation is relevant to the reasonableness of his contract.
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
by FuquaManuel on Dec 14, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Me neither. He’s still pitching every 5th day.
Derek Bodner
LibertyBallers || @derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
by Derek Bodner on Dec 14, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Only in terms of ROI. the #5 starter pitches fewer games typically, doesn’t really contribute much in the playoffs and is typically the easiest starting spot on the team to fill with a cost controlled player like Kendrick or Worley.
Blanton for Drew…now wouldn’t that be something?
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Duracell is involved in the trade talks – new sponsorship opportunities
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the link, but I think I lost a good solid 20 IQ reading the comments.
"Ninety percent of this game is half mental" - Yogi Berra (SI, May 14, 1979)
by bandwagonesque on Dec 14, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
How does adding cliff lee help the ‘overly lefty’ batting order?
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Would Lee have made a difference in the NLCS?
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
The first few comments pretty much sum up why Lee might not have gone to NY.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
by EREX21 on Dec 14, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
When the first things they do is make fun of his wife, officially made them the worst fans ever. It also shows that their fans over there are really woried.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Dec 14, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
when i heard about what they were doing to Lee’s wife in the stands during the playoffs, i had a good feeling he wouldn’t be in NY.
Out of curiosity, I’m like 90% sure Philly fans didn’t do anything as deplorable as that right? I havent lived in Philly for a long time so I’m not entirely sure.
No. The worst I’ve ever heard of on that score is that someone threw a mustard packet at Joe Maddon’s daughter.
Even if you’re a total jerk though, how dumb do you have to be to abuse the wife of your team’s #1 free agent target?
Agreed. Our fans may vomit on children, but they’re discerning enough to avoid prized free agent kids.
I was also just thinking, if someone spit on Lee’s wife, it must have been someone sitting pretty low in the stands. The crowd in the lower deck at CBP is relatively genteel. Would be funny if the culprit was some stockbroker or what not.
It would pretty much have to be a stock broker or someone of equal dough…those lower seats @ NYY are no cheap ticket.
It would be awesome if they recreate the whole incident…I’m talking Jerry Seinfeld and the Keith Hernandez incident…back and to the left…only to find out that the owner of the seat in which the spit came from had to sell or give away his ticket to the game because he was a lawyer prepping for a big case and the person he gave it to was his wife’s drunken brother that no one really likes. Imagine being that guy.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I wonder how long until someone posits it was a Phillies fan who was trying to undermine the Yankees efforts in signing Lee?
If true...
50 years (and many WFC’s) from now, when this information can be declassified, that phan must be awarded the Citizens Bank Park Concessional Medal of Honor.
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 14, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Logan Morrison, continuously hilarious.
http://twitter.com/LoMoMarlins/status/14708093610889218
Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
by wildcatlh on Dec 14, 2010 10:56 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
wow
Can I tell you how excited I am to face R2C2 (great name btw!) Breaking News Logan Morrison goes hitless vs Phillies until his 30th bday 9 minutes ago via Echofon Retweeted by 44 people
LoMoMarlins
by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Dec 14, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Our favorite pitching prospect with a reply
JarredCosart Jarred Cosart
@LoMoMarlins haha at least you get to hit against them and not be the guy trying to take one of there jobs lol
Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
I kind of want this guy on the Phillies now. His hilarity alone makes him lovable.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I was thinking the exact same thing.
He could save himself a lot of hitless games and come play along side R2-C2!
Formerly known as "flyrsfrk05"
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Dec 14, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
Hitless until his 30th birthday?
That means he’s coming here, right?
/wishful thinking’d.
Anyone see how crappy next years free agent pitching looks? Best guy is Edwin Jackson, lolz go get him Yanks!
Also, anyone figure a way that we afford Hamels and J-Roll extensions next offseason as well as someone to play LF?
How about waiting to see Rollins tay healthy before paying him?
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
In a way they are backed into a corner, hes still worth resigning. SS market really is thin all around.
And no one in the farm any time soon
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Oh come on – of course he’s the lead off hitter.
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
Who gets credit for R2C2 and will George Lucas figure out a way to sue people?
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 10:56 AM EST reply actions
he can use the money to redo the the prequel trilogy and get real writers, or any other writer but himself. (Didn’t he write all three of those?)
And forget Hayden Christensen was ever born.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
He was decent as Stephan Glass in Shattered Glass. He’s not the greatest actor but no one could do anything with those scripts.
Yeah. Natalie Portman was equally terrible in the Star Wars movies, but she’s obviously gotten lots of acclaim since then.
Her SNL rap is awesome with Samberg
by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Dec 14, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Harvard Educated as well is she not?
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
I do agree, those scripts did make it almost impossible for anyone to do well, but still…he killed it. Revenge Of The Sith should have been absolutely fantastic but it was horrible. The whole transition from Jedi to Sith was terrible, mostly because it was rushed.
But I have yet to see anything with H.C in it that I didn’t dislike. Then again, I also try and go out of my way to avoid movies with him in them.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Unless he uses the Timothy Zahn ‘scripts’ I have no interest
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
They aren’t scripts (hence the use of the quotes)
In the 90s timothy zahn wrote a 3 part star wars ‘post’ trilogy called the heir to the empire series. It’s the only star wars book I’ve read myself and I thought they were great. Zahn is/was a great writer. If you’re a star wars fan and haven’t read his ‘official’ trilogy you’re missing out
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
Stackpole did the X-wing novels which I devoured in middle school
by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Dec 14, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Anybody see Robot Chicken Star Wars 3? Was on sun
by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Dec 14, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Need this one for sure. MEGA SMUG.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
Twitterific
RDansky Real reason Cliff Lee went to Philly – didn’t want to pitch in front of an aging shortstop with no range in the Bronx.
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 11:00 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
RIP
“This wouldn’t be happening if Cliff Lee was still here” meme
December 16, 2009 – December 14, 2010
Reported missing, presumed dead. May be living in Dallas, but current whereabouts unknown.
Well, looks like ol' Cliffie is back... to his pre - Series Godlike status.
Such a showman!
Nice to see that both he and the friggin’ world have left that World Series unpleasantness in the past.
And you’ve retooled with a true Craftsman!
Perhaps now the sporting world can bandy about the name of some other attentiON , K – MART SHOPPERS…
Not a member or affiliated with McCOVEY CHRONICLES in ANY way/shape/form.
Despite all my hoarsely screamed threats SBNation cannot delete them from my profile.
by victor frankenstein on Dec 14, 2010 11:28 AM EST reply actions
The New York Yankees are rarely going to see Lee in his five years in Illadelphia, the New York Mets, however, are going to have to Lee a whole lot of Lee, so I’m ok with this signing
by The Last Shall Become First on Dec 14, 2010 11:40 AM EST reply actions
Burnett has two World Series rings, Lee has zero
by The Last Shall Become First on Dec 14, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Will Purdue has many NBA rings
Dirk Nowitzki has zero
Guess what – Dirk Nowitzki is still much better than Will Purdue
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
His precious...
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
After smoking several bits of plaster and various bits of crumble-like debris that he found while on all fours combing thru the carpet, Gollum finally stumbled on that crack rock he knew Frotto had dropped.
Fixed
Not a member or affiliated with McCOVEY CHRONICLES in ANY way/shape/form.
Despite all my hoarsely screamed threats SBNation cannot delete them from my profile.
by victor frankenstein on Dec 14, 2010 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
“We’re like, ‘Whoa,’” center fielder Shane Victorino said. "I had heard about this mystery team. I was like, ’There’s no way it’s us.’ Then I heard the Phillies were back in it. I texted Cliff last week and he never said anything. I texted him again today when everything started coming out. I’m like, ‘Come on.’ He finally texted me back, ’I’m back,’ and I was like, ‘Oh my goodness.’ I thought there was no way we’re bringing him back.
Shane Victorino might be less smart than Key-new
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
You probably can, in the nightside
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Just read that Cowherd mentioned on his show this morning that Lee might have been influenced in part by his son—he’s in remission for Leukemia and CHOP is here.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
Cowherd makes things up.
And there are many good hospitals in New York City
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
CHOP really does have a tremendous pediatric oncology department. I think this is actually credible. Parents will make decisions even over small differences if it’s for their kids.
Is true
McDonald House in Philadelphia is one of the best children’s health care facilities in the nation, for that matter the world.
by h2o_34_35_44 on Dec 14, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Side note, as a former patient at CHoP, I always thought that was a God awful acronym for a Children’s Hospital.
Yeah, but at least it’s more memorable than something like Boston Children’s or something more… generic
DTMWTD
by alcatraz0109 on Dec 14, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, Bayless
Comparing Lee to LeBron in earnest (not satire). You’re an ass.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
You're just now discovering that Bayless is an ass?
Really?
Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
It’s between him and Woody Paige for worst ESPN personality.
by FearTheTurtIe on Dec 14, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
I actually like Cowherd and Dilfer. Hasslebeck annoys me, he’s about as entertaining as stale white bread.
Cowherd’s a douche
but ALL their NBA guys suck the most
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Except Hollinger. I don’t always agree with his methodology, but I have to respect anyone who’s trying to bring more advanced statistics into basketball.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I don’t, since he found his ‘magic’ number, which is vastly broken and now the NBA douches at ESPN use it like dogma while ignoring many other BETTER numbers (but not invented by an ESPN employee) out there.
Hollinger is not the Bill James of the NBA, ESPN just wants to market him that way
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 15, 2010 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
I actually don’t hate Woody Paige as much as others. He wrote that one article about suicide that I thought was really good, made me dislike him less.
My hate list, in order, goes something like this:
Cowherd, Bayless, Mariotti (gone), Morgan (gone), Kornheiser, Wilbon, Plaschke, Stew Scott, and so on.
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
by FuquaManuel on Dec 14, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
He’s not really a TV personality though, though I did see him doing color commentary on one of their NBA broadcasts, so maybe.
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
by FuquaManuel on Dec 14, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
I believe he is now a color guy for their NBA games, I think the Friday late game was his ‘debut’.
I don’t distinguish between the tv/podcast/radio doucheness of ESPN personalities, as most of them have a high douche level no matter what they do, in my opinion
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Simmons doing color commentary is enough for me to stop watching the NBA on ESPN entirely.
DTMWTD
by alcatraz0109 on Dec 14, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Jeff van Gundy makes my ears bleed
I never thought I’d long for the return of Bill Walton
The BCS games are going to be horrid
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Oh man, I like Van Gundy. Though I’m hopelessly biased since I always liked him as a coach, and he got his start at PC way back in the day.
I didn’t watch Simmons on Friday, but I’ll say this much: the guy knows his stuff pretty well when it comes to the NBA. I hate reading his baseball stuff, the football stuff annoys me sometimes, and he shits on the Sixers whenever he gets a chance — but he’s known the NBA inside and out for years (at least from a fan’s perspective), so I always care what he has to say about that.
I’m a fan of the NBA and think he knows swaudoosh. He ‘knows’ the NBA thew way Joe Morgand ‘knows’ baseball
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Are you talking about van Gundy or Simmons here?
The problem with Morgan was that when he made observations, they were either terribly simple, poorly communicted or both. I have no doubt he knows baseball, he just could not communicate it well.
Simmons is no better of an analyst than most fans but he makes good observations from time to time. Horrible conclusions for the most part but some decent observations.
It’s about simmons, since Friar was talking about Simmons
A broken clock is right twice a day – doesn’t mean it’s a clock I want to rely on
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
I thought so but he did menton Van Gundy as well in the post above yours.
Simmons watches a ton of basketball. So he can glean things that I always can’t. I find him useful to see these things then put them in his column and make a crappy joke or a bad conclusion off of them. However, the observations are there.
Tons of people watch a ton of basketball, that doesn’t mean they understand what they’re watching.
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
I think that’s fair. Simmons can be abrasive and, as TP says, he’s more of a commentator than an analyst, but back in the day when I used to follow the NBA much more closely, he was always one of the better reads out there. SF, I’ll obviously defer to your opinions on most things NBA-related, but I don’t think you can say Simmons doesn’t know anything.
Simmons is a humorist and a cultural commentator. Sometimes he’s okay at that, sometimes he isn’t. No one should really expect actual analysis from him.
I’m sure you’ve probably seen this already, but here is a real good <a href=“http:// ”http://www.royalsreview.com/2010/12/14/1875197/in-signing-with-phillies-cliff-lee-destroys-his-legacy" target="_blank">http://www.royalsreview.com/2010/12/14/1875197/in-signing-with-phillies-cliff-lee-destroys-his-legacy" >satirical LeBron comparison. Brilliant work.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
What the hell?
Linking fail.
http://www.royalsreview.com/2010/12/14/1875197/in-signing-with-phillies-cliff-lee-destroys-his-legacy
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
their just mad we didnt trade for grienke
by phillyeaglesfan on Dec 14, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
what
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
The satire. The sarcasm.
You missed it.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
Not to mention basic elementary school English
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 15, 2010 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
I think it needs to be mentioned that a lot of the credit for this belongs to the Phillies’ ownership group. Not for opening their wallets, but for creating a workplace atmosphere that people enjoy being in, whether they’re the players, coaches, sales reps, or ushers. I’ve heard several ex-players, including Doug Glanville, comment on how the Phillies organization is like a family, corny as that may sound.
Normally, that kind of thing doesn’t matter in comparison to money, but occasionally it does. You know who might deserve the most credit for this is Bill Giles. His bad qualities as an owner destroyed this franchise, but he did have good qualities as well, and the good parts of his legacy, unlike the bad ones, have outlived his tenure as CEO.
Your rotation will be sick.
See you in October Philly fans. 2009 + Doc
"Don't give up, don't ever give up."
- Matsui, who fucking ate us up
by The Gang Wins the Cup on Dec 14, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
im sure we wont see the yanks in oct
by phillyeaglesfan on Dec 14, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Just to be clear.
I’m joking, but I’m a covering up my sadness with bad jokes and food.
"Don't give up, don't ever give up."
I’m a jew, but I always thought it was bad to get coal in your stocking
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
That’s neither necessary nor true in my opinion
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Epic pic.
I’m not happy he didn’t choose the Yankees, but I’m happy hes in the NL again.
"Don't give up, don't ever give up."
Wow… Epicsauce. My favorite is the reference to Always Sunny
by Boundforbeach on Dec 14, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
they also elf’d the 4 of them
I've been waiting my whole life for an Eagles Championship
RIP JJ
by sports00fan00 on Dec 14, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Weirdly
I thought I’d be pissed about trading him away last winter if we just resigned him now anyway because of the missed opportunity. Maybe it’s the afterglow, but I now like it since we have him back and we have a few decent prospects that could possibly pan out.
and we have Roy Oswalt, which we probably wouldn’t have if we hadn’t traded Lee last winter.
by David S. Cohen on Dec 14, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
This drives me insane.
Congratulations. Your team seriously has its shit together. Hopefully we’ll rejoin you in contention at the top of the NL before TOO too long, but whatever happens down the road, this is the ultimate offseasons stake in the heart of my cursed people.
Yours in Anger,
A Mets fan
by twincitiesknick on Dec 14, 2010 1:59 PM EST reply actions
You guys have made the first step
Getting rid of Minaya and Manuel. If Collins learned from Leyland, you should have a decent team pretty quickly.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
SC on ESPN
Is talking about WAR (as it relates to baseball stats)?!?!? Am I still dreaming?
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
The signing does raise the question of why the Phillies gave away Lee in the first place — and I do mean gave away, as right now it appears they’ll receive next to no return from the three players acquired in last winter’s Lee trade, while they’ll surrender their first-round pick to the Rangers for signing Lee. The cost for keeping Lee all along was just money, and while the Giants flat-out outplayed Philly in the National League Championship Series, I think it’s fair to say the series would have at least been closer had Lee been in the Phils’ rotation.
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=law_keith&id=5917822
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 2:10 PM EST reply actions
Law has become such a self-parody. He’s like a Fangraphs writer except with a national TV platform – he used to be smart, he could be smart, but he’s totally lost any claim to the reputation he once had among intelligent fans. There’s so much wrong in that quote that it’s hard to know where to begin.
I mean, really. Each sentence in that paragraph contains a major logical or factual error (or both).
And of course
You probably disagree with his assessment of the prospects the phillies received in return for Lee as well?
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
well, Law’s assessment is that “it appears they’ll receive next to no return” from Ramirez, Aumont, and Gillies. you don’t have to be overly optimistic about their prospects to they’ll do better than that.
by perfectdepth on Dec 14, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
It’s also a fairly ridiculous statement after 1 season. It would be like saying last year that the Eagles signing Vick was clearly a waste of resources as he didn’t produce.
I agree that it’s nothing like that analogy, but it’s still ridiculous for Law to write off all three because they had disappointing age-21 seasons.
by perfectdepth on Dec 14, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
I do, but the main point is that even if he were correct on his factual prediction, whatever return it “right now appears” the Phillies will get from those three guys is logically irrelevant to the question he asked, which was why the Phillies made the trade in 2009. The Phillies’ motivation for making the trade in 2009 was based on what it appeared they would get in return in 2009.
Also, the Giants didn’t “flat out outplay” the Phillies in the NLCS. There was a run differential of zero over six games. Short series are usually won or lost based on factors that have nothing to do with the quality of the teams’ play. That was even truer than usual in the 2010 NLCS.
Maybe being on ESPN’s payroll makes you dumber. Rob Neyer still does good work, but Law does not. You can have the greatest sources in the world, and you can have the greatest talent evaluation skills in the world. But if you don’t understand the basic principles of logic, then your writing will be crap.
I lost respect for him when he let Missanelli bully him
about Howard’s contract in the counting stats vs. sabrmetrics discussion.
Granted it was on Missanelli’s home turf and he got lawyered, but he had so much ammo to use and failed miserably.
by Screen Name 20 on Dec 14, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Missanelli is employed by an ESPN radio affiliate, do you know think that Law as an employee of ESPN might be under some sort of suggestion not to make the hosts look like total buffoons.
The fact that Missanelli has a job at all should demonstrate the demographic that radio station cares to appeal to
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t really hold that episode against him so much, but you don’t need to make anyone look like a buffoon in order to present a coherent, persuasive position. The former is a question of tone, the latter is a question of communication skills and preparation. Law was extremely poorly prepared for that interview, and he deserves criticism for it.
The anger and jealousy on NY sports radio is palpable.
Entertainment at its finest.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
This will just hasten the Carmelo deal
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Our friends over at TC were sounding pretty salty as well, although there were islands of refreshing rationality amidst the fanboy seas.
"Ninety percent of this game is half mental" - Yogi Berra (SI, May 14, 1979)
by bandwagonesque on Dec 14, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Philadelphia over New York City? I don’t think so. New York City is bigger, nicer and way more famous then Philly will ever be. Don’t get me wrong Philly is a great city and a one of the greatest sports cities in America, but is just doesn’t have the limelight that NYC has.
by The Last Shall Become First on Dec 14, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
Matter of taste
I don’t despise NY from the Brownstones to the pavement, Nor am I one to label every Mets/Yanks fans as douchenozzles.
I, however, would not want to live there.
Little too crowded, housing is overpriced and I like to drive.
This in no way does – nor should it – affect your feelings toward NY at all.,
It’s all subjective and down to personal preference.
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 14, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
Amen
Just because you don’t like a sports team doesn’t mean that city is a bad place. Don’t judge NYC because you don’t like the Mets or Yankees. I would never judge Boston just because I dislike the Red Sox and Patriots
by The Last Shall Become First on Dec 14, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
New York is ‘way more famous’ than philly will ever be?
That’s an asinine comment and to me a negative towards a city. Why do I want to live in a city where tourists flock to. I already do – on the west coast – and it should be legal that i run the tourists over when they break traffic laws.
NYC has all the limelight, but hollywood avoids filming there because it costs too damn much, cliff lee, jayson werth, carl crawford, dwyane wade, lebron james and chris bosh all decided they didn’t want to play there.
You know who wants to play there – over rated people who aren’t worth their salaries but get them – feel free to have Carmelo Anthony you knicks.
New York is a nice city to VISIT Philadlephia (and its suburbs) is hella better place to LIVE
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
NYC has all the limelight, but hollywood avoids filming there because it costs too damn much
They all go to Vancouver or Chicago.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
One of my favorite tv lines of all time (it has bulid up)
Vancouver doesn’t look like anything. It doesn’t even look like Vancouver. It looks like Boston, California.
My favorite is a show like psych that claims to take place in santa barbara, all the exterior ‘helicopter’ shots are filmed here but almost nonoe of the regular shots are in this town :)
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
You are a misanthrope. But I’m sure you already knew that.
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
Like irony – i have no idea what said word truly means – ah well – I’m me and the only thing that has any allure to me in NYC is Broadway. Everything else (to me) can be found in other cities in this country for a lot less money.
Not to mention I find some of NYC’s desire to legislature how food is cooked downright offensive to good taste
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Oh come on socialist boy. Don’t insult my intelligence, we all know you are incapable of love :)
Seriously though, they gave you power – please start laying some smack down:D
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
Laying smackdowns on who? And how, exactly, do you suggest I do it?
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
There’s deleting posts, warning people and than bannination – it’s fun :) (Someone silily gave me power on a blog for a while, i gave it back)
I must admit though, with this change, i’m no longer as close to the bottom as I used to be – so there’s that :)
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
Illadelphia is no paradise, Pal
And he would have not have lived in New York City, he would have lived in a mansion in Alpine, New Jersey, where CC, LL and Chris Rock live
by The Last Shall Become First on Dec 14, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
The fact is that not everyone wants to live in the biggest city in the world. It’s a wonderful place to visit, but sometimes people like their big cities more cozy. And he can play in Philly and still live in NJ; a lot of the Phillies do.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
I agree
Not everybody wants to play in NYC or deal with the insane amount of pressure and being that Lee obviously enjoyed his first stint there and feels comfortable in Philly, it is where he should be
by The Last Shall Become First on Dec 14, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
He probably couldn’t handle the pressure of living and playing in The Center of the Universe™
by FearTheTurtIe on Dec 14, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
There is no color yet invented to rate this level of smug
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
We'd need to extend it above red
This is a Category 7 Smug Storm.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Not me
The increase in the amount of useless cursing is getting aggravating.
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry
Haven’t slept in about 33 hours at this point. My creative juices gland has obviously shut down so that power could be diverted to my 14-hour-long “Smug Smile” and to make sure I don’t pass out and fall onto the sharp corner of a table or something.
As a result, I slipped into the trap of the easy crutch of crassness & vulgarity.
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 14, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think it has more to do with the recent influx :)
I’m pretty used to only one person seriously cursing here (with his lordship and all i must respect his authoritie sic)
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
tengo un pregunta
When does Ryan Howards extension kick in? At first I though it would be this year (2011), but now Im starting to think its next season (2012). Anyone know? Does he make 20million for 2011 or 25million?
Haven't heard or read it yet...
Is there a press conference scheduled yet to announce this?
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
5th Starter
who do you want?
Joe Blanton, Kyle Kendrick, Vance Worley, Drew Capenter, J.C. Ramirez & Drew Naylor are all on the 40man roster. Jamie Moyer is much respected in clubhouse, but lets think logically. He’s done. Personally, I’d try to deal away Joe Blanton & the remaining 2yrs/$17m. A deal like that may aquire that right-handed bat we all keep hearing about, but the Phils would0 probably need to include a couple prospects to sweeten the pot. Vance for the 5th spot!
I don’t mind KK, he has his ups and downs, but he can get the job done as a 5th guy/playoff bullpen help. I’m not opposed to trying Worley either. Again, neither are better then Blanton, but Im fine with any being the 5th.
Samesis
still dont see the issue with Kendrick. Hes not great, but as 5th starters go, hes definatley good enough.
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
Jaime Moyer might not be available for a year but to say he’s done is premature. Given his pitching style is easier on the arm but not so much that me must have increased his conditioning program to mitigate the effects of age, he’s probably in better shape than you think. Furthermore the athletic attribute most affected by age is speed and this isn’t such an issue for him. And the other factor that older athletes must contend with is longer recovery times require which with teams carrying 5 starters these days he will get.
Moyer’s contract is up. He’d have to recover from the Tommy John surgery he had (less than a month ago), then prove to the front office he can still compete (which he has always done, i’ll give you that). I just really doubt him coming back. They’re younger guys on the 40man that are ready to step up.
I like the idea of getting Blanton off the roster, he’s not a bad pitcher but when he was signed we all thought we knew what we would get 7 innings 3 ER but, he couldn’t do that in 2010 his 1st inning got him into trouble and would labor through 4 or 5. If I had my choice on the 5th starter it would be Kendrick. He proved last year that he could have some great games and some piss poor games for my 5th starter I don’t want him so consistant that he’s going to surrender 5 runs in 7 innings of work every game I would rather him give up 10 one night and his next start put up zeros. And as much as i like Worley I realy do I just would like to see him come in in a less pressure starts like no matter how good or bad I am I’m going back to the minors.
by h2o_34_35_44 on Dec 15, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
The only advantage Kendrick has over Blanton is that he’s cheaper. Blanton is so far superior to Kendrick in terms of actual pitching quality that the discussion isn’t even worth having.
You are correct. Blanton is here Blanton is the #5 guy however I was talking under the idea that Blanton isn’t going to be here in April.
by h2o_34_35_44 on Dec 15, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
MLBTraderumors
has the nationals as a possible Blanton option. How about Blanton for Willingham?
one Nats fan that was on here last night was not so fond of that idea…
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, I wouldnt mind if we went the Bobby Abreu route and just gave him away without having to pay any of his salary. We almost literally have no use for him, and we almost have to trade him. Teams know both of those things and will likely force us to either a) eat a decent amount money (not an option IMO) or b) give nothing back for him (acceptable).
I think the Os would do a deal like that. They have the money and are looking of for a vetern pitcher.
by philiafan14364 on Dec 14, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
I’d like a guy who can play right field (or left) and bats right handed :)
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Facial hair is not required, plate discipline is
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 14, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
OT a bit, but interesting
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;ylt=AoCo0DgGSf5LJyXzmK9pkURvLYF?slug=ap-nationals-stairs
Braves fan here...
Great pick-up! I can’t blame you for wanting to win and spend money, people will cry and complain about how it’s “unfair”…but really it’s a game and games are meant to be won
Right now Phillies vs. Braves Rotation is looking like:
Lowe<<<<<<<<<<Halladay(I can’t stress how much better Doc is than Lowe hahah)
Hudson<Lee(Slight edge to Lee but if this game happens this year it will be a helluva game)
Hanson>Oswalt( I personally feel this is Big Red’s breakout year and I think he’s putting up monster numbers this year
Jurrjens=Hamels(Sorry Hamels is awesome and all but if JJ is healthy he is one of the best in the business)
Beachy> Blanton( Beachy is a very solid pitcher as you guys may have saw in September…and no offense but Blanton sucks)
Thanks for your time just tellin you what I think from a Braves perspecive
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
Indeed. Halladay and Oswalt were both better than Hudson last season, let alone Hanson. Hamels is almost equal to Hudson. Going strictly from last year’s numbers (I hate trying to project at this point):
Halladay
Lee
Oswalt
Hudson
Hamels
Hanson
Lowe
Blanton
Jurrjens
(not including Beachy because of small sample size)
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Something like that.
I actually think the Hanson>Oswalt statement, while wrong, is not egregiously wrong. Hanson has real talent and could conceivably take that big leap forward in ’11.
But Lee has much more than a slight edge over Hudson, who really is no better than above-average at this stage of his career.
Hamels is about a million times better than Jurrjens.
And Blanton is probably also better than Jurrjens, let alone Beachy. Anyone who says Blanton “sucks” just puts his ignorance on display for the world to see. Blanton might even be better than Lowe in 2011.
Wow that was a very ignorant statement
Blanton is better than Jurrjens…do you realize that when JJ was healthy he put up a 2.60 ERA?
JJ is just as good as Hamels when healthy(which he should be in 2011)
Hanson is a young stud while Oswalt, very good indeed is aging, I full heartedly expect Hanson to be much better than most expect this season(just my opinion)
There is no way the Oswalt is better than Hudson(statement to the post above yours) he may even close to Lee(check out the stats) now before you overeact and say how Lee is much better than Hudson…please check the stats
-For the record I believe Lee is better than Hudson but mot by as much you you probably think
Blanton is not a very good pitcher…sorry but I think you guys may want to adress that at the deadline or so
Thanks!
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
Sorry?
Sorry makes you aloud to be extremely rude?
Everyone is entitled to opinion no need to be rude
Thanks!
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
by boknows71 on Dec 15, 2010 9:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What makes him ‘aloud’ to be extremely rude?
1. Your use of the word aloud
2. Your ignorance of facts and truth
3. Your belief that your bias makes it true
4. Your ignorance
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 15, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Oswalt 2010 WAR = 4.7
Hudson 2010 WAR = 2.7
Oswalt 2009 WAR = 3.0
Hudson 2009 WAR = 0.7 (only 42 IP)
Oswalt 2008 WAR = 3.5
Hudson 2008 WAR = 2.4
Now I understand that WAR paints with a broad brush, but there’s no data here saying Hudson is even close to Oswalt. In fact, Oswalt marginally beats Hudson on lifetime WAR despite having played two fewer seasons.
"Ninety percent of this game is half mental" - Yogi Berra (SI, May 14, 1979)
by bandwagonesque on Dec 15, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
I’m very late to this party. In the event, however, that any denizens of Talking Chop are reading this right now:
Please understand this: We may disagree with you. This does not make us rude. We are not obligated to act any particular way. We are not obligated to say that we respect any member of the Atlanta Braves. In fact, were we to do so, we’d be lying. We merely speak our minds. And we may not seem “classy” when we do so. That’s just the way it is. You may think that this is wrong in some way. Here’s the problem with that line of thinking: no one gave you the right to tell us how to act.
There. Now, if you don’t like what I have to say, you’re kindly welcome to fuck off. Self-centered, passive-aggressive pricks, the lot of you.
by ThinMountainAir on Dec 18, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
Tim Hudson will have a higher ERA than all four of the Phillies aces this season. Book it.
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
by FuquaManuel on Dec 14, 2010 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
OH
And saying Blanton is better than Jurrjens is EXTREMELY ignorant
;)
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
xFIP, heard of it?
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Dec 14, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
I do actually
I’m not a naive hillbilly
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
Nope, but probably an ignorant red neck
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 15, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Not really behind your back
I mean you guys have been rather rude
I come over for some nice banter, have been nothing but polite and you mock me…
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
You are coming over here and making assertions based off of seemingly nothing. We don’t mind friendly debate (ask any Giants fan who was here during the NLCS; we had fine discussions with them), but if you are going to assert that pitcher A is better than Pitcher B, you better have some stats outside of wins (ZOMG) and ERA (DA BESTEST!) to back them up.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
No class, either!
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Dec 14, 2010 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
Even more amazing is that the one guy who responded made 6 separate points, all 6 of which are factually wrong.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
No facts at all
All opinion…am I not entitled to an opinion? Please answer this…are we in Communist Cuba or America here bud?
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
In Communist Cuba...
Opinions are entitled to you!
by phatj on Dec 14, 2010 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You are entitled to your opinion, but you need to be able to back your opinion up with stats and figures in order to generate good-natured and healthy discussion, and not just your observations, W/L record, and ERA.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
….considering this is a statistic and SABR-slanted blog.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
And the identity of opening day starter. I did not read that post before publishing this. Stating one pitcher is better because he is the opening day starter is like saying Cheez-Its are the best cracker because of their shape.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
wait, is this not the Cuban Phillies blog?
DAMMIT GUYS
by perfectdepth on Dec 14, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
O
M
G
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
by FuquaManuel on Dec 14, 2010 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
I was referring to the person who responded to your post on TC. He made 6 different statements, all of which are untrue. That is not an opinion but a fact. There is evidence to prove that he is wrong.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Castro played for the Phillies last year, btw.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 16, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Two things I loved
Mvhsbball now has an FM quote in his/her signature. And he/she says we have a lack of prospect coverage. When bashing a blog, it is helpful if you actually research and make sure your insults have some merit to them.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
I view that as a great honor, frankly. Why? Because that quote comes from one of our threads over here, which means that he cares enough about what I have to say to come all the way over to our “terrible blog” and read carefully through our comment thread.
His “Talking Chop is the best because we have the most traffic and most stories” line is funny in that it shows a complete ignorance of how the Phillies blogosphere compares to the Braves blogosphere.
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
by FuquaManuel on Dec 14, 2010 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
That’s why I said I loved it. It cracked me up that he thought that much of you and cared enough to post it as his signature.
The number of Phillies blogs out there is ridiculous. Just last March there was that Phield of 65 Phillies blogs! It’s absurd. I won’t begrudge him the SB Nation numbers (for what it’s worth, TC does have more average visits and pageviews than TGP, in addition to more average visits than McC while McC does get more overall pageviews than TC), but quantity does not always equal quality. I could write 8 posts a blog with 8 posts a day, put it up on a network and get a lot of pageviews, but that does not mean what I write is the best quality on that network.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
I sure have...
I tend to not look entirily into the advanced stats
FIP is a decent attempt at fixing a broken stat in ERA , but it is still far from a good one. It overvalues strikeout pitchers, it is frequently used without the context of BABIP/LOB%, and assumes that pitchers have no control over fly balls that leave the yard. It is also a predicative stat, which many people forget when they use it. It can be useful, but the flaws must be kept in mind when presenting it.
According to xFIP Javy Vazquez had a good year…I beg to differ…
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
What was Vazquez’s SIERA?
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
According to xFIP Javy Vazquez had a good year…I beg to differ…
this is (SHOCK!) inaccurate. Vazquez had a 4.90 xFIP in 2010. granted, that is better than his actual ERA, but it’s certainly not “good.”
(also, FWIW, Vazquez actually had a worse FIP than ERA.)
by perfectdepth on Dec 14, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
Jurrjens had one year with a sub-3.00 ERA, which involved both a lower BABIP and lower XBH% than his other seasons. That implies that it was not a sustainable level of play, but was an outlier, possibly due to an improved fielding.
Blanton, on the other hand, had extreme outliers in the bad sense last year, with a BABIP well above his normal level, and unusually high line drive and HR/FB percentages.
Statistically, the two are about equal; Blanton was placed higher only because his body of work is longer and thus provides a more stable baseline.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Go around ask any GM in the MLB
if they’d rather have Jurrjens or Blanton…then let me get your answer
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
“Go around ask any GM in the MLB”
Is this your idea of a serious argument, or just friendly banter?
Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
by FuquaManuel on Dec 14, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
I hope it’s banter, because GM opinions are inherently subjective. While there’s subjectivity in how the statistical models are built and weighted, unless and until one is both descriptive and predictive, they are less subjective than personal opinion.
Of course, this is also assuming Jurrjens is still on the roster on Opening Day. There are mutterings that he’ll be dealt in order to shore up the offense and get him out of town before Boras gets a chance to go to arbitration. The rotation I’m seeing projected is Hudson-Hanson-Lowe and two out of the three of Minor, Beachy, and Kawakami.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Most GMs would take Jurrjens over Blanton because Jurrjens is younger and cheaper. So would I. That is irrelevant to the fact that Blanton is better than (or at the very least equal to) Jurrjens.
Sure, and I would too, because he’s younger. I’d hesitate for a moment because he’s repped by Boras-of-the-Devil, but I’d still take him, especially if I had a field that ate fly balls for lunch. Right now, though, he’s not proven himself to be any higher than a #3/#4 pitcher.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Yep. I’m just trying to explain that even though I rated Blanton higher right now, because of track record and the two being roughly equivalent, I’d rather sign Jurrjens if I was building a franchise, because of long-term potential. Basically, even though the two are about equal, the age thing makes Jurrjens more valuable long-term, since he should continue to develop.
As an aside, not directed at you, TP – Just because I rate someone higher based on past performance doesn’t mean I’d rather have them for building a franchise. That was why I was clear in saying it was based on performance. If I was doing a “wish list” draft from Philly and Atlanta, with an eye solely towards five years from now rather than right now, I’d probably take Hamels, Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy, and Worley.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
And
JJ is a better pitcher of course…
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
Based on what? I’m not really sure why your bothering to post here other than to stir up an argument and troll. Your debate so far has consisted of No, Jurrjens is better, which as any Monty Python fan will tell you is not a debate it is merely contradicting.
We’re a reasonable blog and if someone from MCC came in and said “I think the Giants Rotation is better because Lincecum posted a 3.33 xFIP with a .333 BABIP…” we could then have a reasonable well thought out debate (frankly a statistical comparison of some top rotations may be a fun undertaking this weekend, if I have time).
I just asked every GM I know
… and NOT ONE picked Jurrjens
GM = Gay Manchurian?
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Dec 14, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
Wait
Lawrence Harvey was gay??
"Ninety percent of this game is half mental" - Yogi Berra (SI, May 14, 1979)
by bandwagonesque on Dec 15, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
not that there's not enough to pick apart in this post
but the order listed really understates the Phillies’ advantage. Lowe is at best the third-best pitcher in the Braves’ rotation, but you list him first?
a more accurate comparison might go something like:
Halladay > Hudson
Lee > Hanson
Hamels > Lowe
Oswalt > Jurrjens
and what the hell, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and agree that Beachy or Minor or Medlen or whoever is better than Blanton.
by perfectdepth on Dec 14, 2010 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
Nice to know you study the Braves...
But for the past 2 years DLOWE has been our OPENING DAY STARTER please realize how much I expressed OPENING DAY STARTER and it looks like he may be again this year
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
I'm not sure what that really proves
unless you’re arguing that Bobby Cox is a bad judge of pitching talent.
and you didn’t mention the phrase “OPENING DAY STARTER” until now, but whatevs.
by perfectdepth on Dec 14, 2010 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just saying that Lowe maybe the Opening Day Starter
and you said he’d be the 3rd
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
Just because a manager claims a pitcher the opening day starter, does not necessarily mean he is the best pitcher on the staff.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
The fact that you somehow think it matters who the ‘opening day starter’ is is foolish.
The phillies now have four pitchers better than the braves opening day starter.
In fact, there’s a rumor that to be fair Charlie Manuel will pitch each of them 2 innings on opening day because it’s SO important
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 15, 2010 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
Will Doc be your opening Day starter?
YES!
And DLOWE will be ours…so they go against each other…not that hard to figure out
and BTW: Lowe is the Braves 4th best starter so your 2nd last statement is irrelevant
"I'm gonna get drunk and play video games till my eyes bleed"- It's Always Sunny in Philly
It doesn't really matter how you line them up
if you’re not quantifying the value of each.
phatj → wall
I don’t care. If Kingslutty wants to think whoever is better than whoever, let him. Arguing with a guy with a Rocker icon is clearly just an effort in futility.
yeah, I gave up on this one. I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he’s an elaborate double agent troll determined to embarrass Braves fans.
unfortunately that goal appears to be unattainable.
by perfectdepth on Dec 15, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
So Dlowe is one of your best guys, congrats. Doesn’t mean he compares to any of the FAB 4.
As a matter of fact, let me be honest with you: None of your pitchers compare to the Fab 4. Not only are they great pitchers, but we’ve got the best defensive catcher probably in all of baseball in Carlos Ruiz.
Ruiz caught a perfect game, A 1-hitter(or was it 2? Nats game to clinch) and a No-Hitter all in the same season. He’s got to be doing something right. How dominate was Lee in 2009? How many times do we hear pitchers say “Ruiz called a great game”?
This Phillies rotation is historic, any catcher would be great with them but the fact that we got Ruiz? ATL: Get USED to second place for several more years.
I don’t think I would go far as to say that none of those pitchers can compare. Their pitching staff has some real talent on it, including a young Hanson and Tim Hudson.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
Hey, at least someone at the level of the braves fan is now participating
by SportingFanaticism on Dec 15, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
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