How Much (or little) of the Bullpen Can We Really Expect to See in 2011?
The Phillies have signed Cliff Lee to a 5-year, 120 million dollar contract, so, naturally, we here at The Good Phight can find nothing better to talk about than the bullpen. As David noted yesterday, the addition of Cliff Lee has the dual impact of further improving the Phillies starting rotation and taking pressure off of the bullpen by adding yet another durable ace who can pitch deep into games. This got me thinking: on average, just how much would it be reasonable to expect the bullpen to work on days that one of the big four pitches?
Here are the innings per start for the four aces in 2010:
Halladay: 7.59 IP/S
Hamels: 6.32
Oswalt: 6.58
Lee: 7.58
If you compile all four starters total innings pitched and divide by the sum of their starts combined, moreover, we arrive at the average number of innings pitched per start for the group:
882.31 IP / 126 GS = 7.00 IP/S
So, on average, in games started by the big four in 2010 (and in the cases of Lee and Oswalt, games that were not necessarily pitched for the Phillies), the bullpen got around two innings of work on average. Of course, this average was a bit lower for games started by Halladay and Lee given their higher IP/S. Also keep in mind that there were extra innings games, road losses, and rain shortened games in which the bullpen may have been called on more or less. Over the course of the season, however, these three things seem to cancel each other out, and the average number of innings pitched per game tends to sit around the expected 9.
For comparison's sake, the Phillies' actual average IP/S in 2010 was 6.4.
How much can we expect to see the bullpen in big four starts next season? Well, using Bill James's 2011 player projections--which I understand have their flaws--and assuming they are all able to stay healthy (knock on wood), here are the projected IP/S for next year:
Halladay: 7.66
Hamels: 6.64
Oswalt: 6.90
Lee: 7.45
Which comes out to a group IP/S of 7.15 (901 IP / 126 S). In other words, if Bill James's projections are correct, in about four of every five games the Phillies play, fans can once again reasonably expect to see the bullpen pitch about two innings. In games that Halladay and Lee start, it becomes even less likely that the bullpen will be asked to get more than six outs while in games started by Oswalt and Hamels, it becomes a bit more likely.
Since we don't yet know for sure who the fifth starter will be in 2011, if we are to account for the remaining 36 games in the season by assigning them to an imaginary starter that pitches the 2010 league average 5.91 innings per start, we get an additional 212.66 IP, which brings the projected team IP/S to 6.87. If we assume the entire Phillies pitching staff combines for 1458 innings pitched (or 9 IP per game), this means the Phillies bullpen will log approximately 344.33 innings in 2011. Compare that to the league low 420 bullpen innings logged by the team in 2010 and the pen could very well see 75 fewer innings in 2011 than they did in 2010!
Obviously, this would mean seeing a lot less of Danys Baez, David Herndon, and Chad Durbin (should he return) pitching in close games and would line the pen up nicely for the simple one two punch of Madson and Lidge. One final thing to consider: with both Madson and Lidge missing time to injury in 2010, the Contreras, Madson, Lidge back-of-the-bullpen triumvirate still managed to record 155 innings. While it is admittedly a long shot, if these three are able to stay healthy for all of 2011, they could conceivably combine for 200 innings--leaving only 140 or so innings to be distributed among the murky underbelly of the pen. Overmanage THAT, Cholly.
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Great post FM.
Question for you…since I know you number one priority on the Phillies Off Season wish list is for your boy Durbin to come back, but suppose he doesn’t, do the Phillies fill his spot internally or are they looking at the FA market which is quickly shrinking.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Interestingly, Bill James projects the following for 2011:
Durbin 4.32 ERA, 4.61 FIP
Baez 4.17 ERA, 4.79 FIP
That isn’t that surprising though.
Really all James’ projections show is that he expects both guys to come back down to Earth. For Durbin that means not as productive as last year but still adequate(in my opinion) and for Baez it would be a significant increase in production from last year.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Yeah, not surprising. But it’s instructive. Why spend money on Durbin when guys like Baez, Herndon, and Mathieson are likely to be just as good?
I presume that is a rhetorical question. Nevertheless, I will give you the obligatory answer: Proven Veteran™ status.
[Ours] is not to reason why…
I am not a witch.
by RememberthePhitans on Dec 16, 2010 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
Oh I agree completely. There is no reason Mathieson should not be given a legit show. Especially if there is any truth to the notion that he may be the closer of the future.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I’m sorry, there is just no way Mathieson could possibly handle the role of Baez, which is to say that Mathieson just cannot be trusted to come into a game in the sixth when the Phillies are losing 8 – 2. Only a veteran player earning, you know, 4 or 5 million a year can be trusted to perform adequately under such circumstances.
I am not a witch.
by RememberthePhitans on Dec 16, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Thank goodness somebody has the balls to post this. I’m not paying those kind of prices just to see some AAAA cost-controlled guy let the game get out of hand.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 16, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
I’d agree if he has developed that splitter. Otherwise he has no secondary pitch which came as a suprise – the consenus on the blog last season was that he threw a viable slider and insane heat. However, when Sutter was hired, we learned he had been assigned to teach Matheison the splitter which for a two time Tommy Johnner is the last pitch you want him throwing. It puts considerable strain on the elbow. Besides, if he had a secondary pitch and was just adding to his aresenal, why choose a pitch that increases the risk of re-injury. The safer pitch is a change-up. Actually, aside from it’s effectiveness as an off speed pitch, the reduced stress the change-up puts on the arm is why it is taught to many Phillies pitchers. In fact, it’s been said that our pitching coaches discourage pitchers from learning the splitter. So, to make this exception and with a pitcher to whom this pitch poses questionable risk suggests the coaches are at their wits end. And if I recall, this very concern was voiced in the threads towards the end of season. But if Sutter’s tutelage has had the desired effect, I see no reason for him not to be here in the bull pen on opening day.
Ah, Danys...
…the most overpaid translator in the history of Baseball…
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 16, 2010 10:03 AM EST reply actions
I knew he was good for something!
by dannijd on Dec 16, 2010 10:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's literally all he's been good for since that minor miracle in the Dodgers game when he had a clean inning, setting up Chooch to make Broxton his woman again.
In fact, I’m pretty sure it was just Danys, RAJ & Contreras alone at Chipotle working out the Big Truck’s recent contract extension.
Although, I’m not entirely convinced Jose even knew the purpose of the meeting or what he was actually signing, but rather just Baez making crap up to prove himself useful so Rube keeps him around.
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 17, 2010 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
Keep in mind the year to year maddening inconsistencies of relievers. Big Truck is just as likely to pitch like a Garbage Truck as Baez is to pitch to his career norms which aren’t that bad.
except that looking at K rates is a decent indicator, and Baez’s rates have been going down, and Contreras’ is quite high
They haven’t been going down, they’ve been about the same for four years. The volatile stat for Baez is not his K rate but his walk rate. When his walks are under control, he can be a somewhat effective pitcher. When they aren’t, then he can’t.
I should have re-checked Baez’s numbers before posting; the main issue, aside from the BB rate, as you point out, is that he doesn’t strike out enough batters, whether the rate is declining or not; but, true, he could be somewhat effective if he kept the walks under control
Our current bullpen right now…correct me if I am wrong.
Lidge
Madson
Contreras
Reyes
Bastardo
Baez
Herndon
There’s our 7…and with the talk of shortening the pen and expanding the bench then we have guys like Mathieson, Worley, and Zagurski in the minors.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Herndon strikes me as likely to head to the minors.
It also seems to me that they may as well keep Blanton, unless he can be traded for actual value. In which case Kendrick or Worley could be a Durbin-like option in the bullpen.
I agree, Herndon should go down to the minors and let him work on developing some other pitches.
I do think Blanton will be traded in favor of Kendrick as the 5th starter. Nothing wrong with that really. Though I would imagine that Kendrick will probably be competing with Worley for that spot, with the loser possibly headed to the pen.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Blanton probably will be traded. But I hope they don’t eat too much of his contract. There should be no reason to. (Also, it strikes me as weird to offload him to clear up payroll space, but to eat some of it.) Now, if he can bring actual value, then I’m all for it.
I don’t think they should have to eat any of his contract. His contract is actually pretty darn good for what he brings to the table.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
That’s a fine position to take if this is just a salary dump. But if they want a few propsects in return, I’m sure any trading partner will seek at least some contributions towards his salary.
I still can’t believe that Houston gave us $11mil towards Oswalt, then turned around and signed Myers long-term.
by Boundforbeach on Dec 16, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t see why the Phillies really need to trade Blanton anyway. Lee is only making 11 mil this year. They can afford both this year, if they want to. Now they may trade him now because his value is higher to a team who can have him for this year and next rather than just next.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Oswalt had loudly requested to be traded, and Myers is younger and thus more likely to last long enough on the team for the core around him to develop.
by dannijd on Dec 20, 2010 10:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What, no fat jokes after he uses “brings to the table”?
C’mon TP’ers, that was a lay up.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
by boknows71 on Dec 16, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Blanton’s WAR last year suggests otherwise, although I bet if you look post ASB, he probably did better (after actually healing from his injury).
I am not a witch.
by RememberthePhitans on Dec 16, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Fangraphs values him at $7.5. He was paid $7.0 ($1.0 salary + $6.0 signing bonus). So he actually did bring back more value than he was paid in 2010 even if you do not adjust for his injury recovery. Also, WAR is based on FIP, and his xFIP was .28 lower than his FIP. His SIERA was even lower, if memory serves.
I was just about to say all this ;)
instead I’ll also point out that it’s not just Phillies homers beating the Blanton-is-underrated drum. Dave Cameron said the same thing just yesterday.
by perfectdepth on Dec 16, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
btw, since we’re talking about Blanton, I’m going to re-post this here, since it’s funny and it’s likely lost in that thread about the Royals Review take on the Lee deal:
haha, awww
It’s even more adorable because he’s fat.
Love Joey-B.
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 16, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
In that thread, there’s a link to an NLCS game 4 recap. It’s absolutely hilarious, even though we lose at the end…
Schadenfreude is a dish best served cold. Sorry, the Yankees, but you lose.
by LeepinLizardz on Dec 16, 2010 5:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I will only permit the salary dumping of Joe Blanton if the fifth starter winds up being…
Pedro Martinez.
(There now, I’ve said it. I feel much better.)
In all seriousness, Phillies should suck it up and just keep Joe.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 16, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
As much as I like Blanton, I wouldn’t mind trading him, just so long as the return we get is commensurate to what we’d be giving up. You get more marginal utility if you transfer X amount of value from the fifth starter to some other area of your team/organization. But if other teams demand that we do something stupid like eat part of Blanton’s salary when Blanton is already underpaid, then forget it.
Outside the "box" Blanton trade?
I noticed the Ordonez signing….$10 M for one year. I also notice that Detroit doesn’t have back-end starting pitching. Would an Ibanez, Blanton, and Kendrick (and maybe throw in someone like Herndon or Carpenter) for Ordonez get it done? Detroit takes on more salary but has more starting pitching, Detroit is way more RH while the Phils are LH. RAJ lowers the salary to budget, and waives buh-bye to Magglio next year if necessary. The WARs, OPS and other data are close.
The Phils still would have Worley, or (gasp) Durbin or (wheeze) Martinez to fall back on for the 5th starter.
Would Detroit go for this?
Maddox, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery. Halladay, Hamels, Oswalt, Lee. We win.
Probably not without the Phillies taking on a boatload of salary… Plus I don’t know that relying on Worley without a net is a good 5th starter plan- and with Durbin not having started in ages and Martinez out of baseball for all of last year.
by dannijd on Dec 16, 2010 10:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed. If the Phils have to eat 4 million or more, why not wait until the trade deadline and see if theres more demand then. That way we’d get the upgrade over KK for that 4 mil.
True Story.
All of those NL teams that chuckle at Fat Joe’s contract are going to find it much more reasonable when they realize that our number is a decent 3rd starter and a damned fine 4th starter on anyone else’s staff.
Dumping him now just to lose salary that we’re not going to be spending on anyone else anyway would a waster opportunity come July-August.
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 17, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
My fellow Sunday-Phunday'ers and I were just talking about this.
Sign Pedro and really just F with the rest of MLB.
Just be totally and completely unpredictable so NO ONE knows what the hell the Phils will do next.
/Sun Tzu’d
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 17, 2010 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
Considering the past 4 days...
I think they have that covered.
by dannijd on Dec 17, 2010 12:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
aw, don't harsh my groove.
I’m just really really enjoying this whole “Evil Empire” thing.
(even though it’s crap, it’s still fun to roll with)
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 17, 2010 6:22 AM EST up reply actions
Couldn't agree more
The only reason Herndon wasn’t sent down last year was the 40-man rule governing control over Rule 5 Draftees.
The Phils clearly like the kid’s makeup and potential upside to have him eat a roster spot all year. I can’t say I disagree. He’s young. He’s enthusiastic. He’s got a live arm and a power sinker that shows a lot of promise. Plus he’s got the nastiest pimpwalk by default since Romero was let go.
Add a good cutter along with a decent hook or changeup and the kid could be a good asset. Hanging onto him this long only to NOT send him down and learn some grips and work on some stuff would a move indicating a level stupidity this Phils regime has yet to demonstrate.
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 17, 2010 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
more bill james
Lidge 3.45 ERA, 3.40 FIP
Madson 3.62 ERA, 3.55 FIP
Contreras 4.12 ERA, 4.16 FIP
Reyes 3.94 ERA, 3.86 FIP
Herndon 4.85 ERA, 4.48 FIP
Mathieson 3.93 ERA, 4.23 FIP
Also here are the Braves:
Venters 4.14 ERA, 3.74 FIP
Kimbrel 2.57 ERA, 2.75 FIP
Sherrill 3.41 ERA, 3.67 FIP
Moylan 3.71 ERA, 3.75 FIP
O’Flaherty 3.73 ERA, 3.57 FIP
Linebrink 4.08 ERA, 4.44 FIP
If that holds up, we’d be looking at a differential of about 0.4 ERA, meaning the Phillies should give up fewer ER in total as long as their rotation outperforms the Braves rotation by at least 0.2 or so.
The pitching staff is becoming Cholly proof
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 16, 2010 2:15 PM EST reply actions
Ruben should invest in a Separation of Powers approach to his baseball team
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 16, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
It might not be as often anymore, but he’ll still find ways to piss us off when it comes to managing his pitchers.
So long as the likes of KK are in the back if the rotation and the only relievers he trusts are Contreras, Madson, and Lidge, it will never be completely Cholly proof.
by dannijd on Dec 16, 2010 7:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Just read yahoo comments on the Cliff Lee articles.
They are really, really, angry about not getting Lee, and trashing him in the process
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 16, 2010 3:32 PM EST reply actions
I’ve discovered that if I’m ever doubting my intelligence I can go read Yahoo! comments on any story and feel much better about myself in contrast.
Thank goodness the nerd filters work pretty well on this site – yahoo is the source of most of our traffic.
At some point it would be good performance art to re-enact the scenario of a scraped/hairy knuckles-type fan who surfs over here and realizes that this is not the site he was looking for.
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 16, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
OT - RH bats
Following the links on the right-hand side (coincidentally):
- Josh Willingham being traded to Oakland
- Magglio Ordonez signs with Detroit
I like that deal for Oakland. can’t say I know too much about their minors, but it doesn’t look like they gave up much.
by perfectdepth on Dec 16, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Sickels ranked them as B- and C+ prospects, respectively, before last season. In his update in August, he wrote:
11) Henry Rodriguez, RHP, Grade B-: 1.69 ERA with 31/9 K/BB in 21 innings for Sacramento, 3.52 ERA with 16/8 K/BB in 15 innings in the majors. Stuff is there, just needs to throw strikes and stay healthy.
12) Corey Brown, OF, Grade C+: 80 games, .337/.429/.537 with 10 homers, 17 steals for Midland, but .156/.207/.275 in 34 games for Sacramento. Triple-A pitching exposed his weaknesses of approach, but with his tools more chances will come.
wait, how much did that sting to post a minor-leaguer’s profile with the word “tools” in it?
by Wet Luzinski on Dec 16, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Is Halladay freakin awesome or what?
Quotable: Halladay On Lee, Winning
One of the interesting things to come out of today’s Cliff Lee press conference was the fact that Ruben Amaro Jr. called his ace Roy Halladay to talk about the potential deal the Phillies could be making with Lee. Ruben wanted to make sure that if the Phillies gave Lee a five year deal, something they told Halladay they never do, that Roy would be cool with it all. Doc’s response was friggin’ awesome.
From Jayson Stark’s story on Halladay being consulted:
But Amaro said when he explained the “special circumstances” that had caused the team to consider altering that philosophy to sign Lee, Halladay told him, “Ruben, this is completely different. This is a totally different circumstance. Do what you think you’ve got to do to put the best team on the field. … All I want to do is win.”
Cue the Rocky music.
Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee: two of a kind. On the same team.
by JoeBuckSUCKS on Dec 16, 2010 5:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
700Level, right?
My favorite part is the comment three of four down…
“What’re we waitin’ fer’?!”
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Dec 17, 2010 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
Now that this Lee thing has died down a little
Shouldnt we be concerned more about the hole in our #5 batting spot again instead of if we need a bullpen or not? Just sayin.
You can muff a punt but can't punt a muff
that was covered
in the comments on one of the other posts: Lee bats fifth.
by Philibuster on Dec 17, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
But he’s a lefty in an already lefty-heavy lineup. We need to have a righty there somewhere.
Schadenfreude is a dish best served cold. Sorry, the Yankees, but you lose.
by LeepinLizardz on Dec 17, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Lol
I always liked the way lee batted. He is very good for a pitcher. I remember in his first start here he was 2 feet from hitting a homerun.
You can muff a punt but can't punt a muff

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