In Defense of Jamie Moyer
by taco pal on Mar 12, 2010 7:07 PM EST
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via thegoodofthegame.mlblogs.com
I don't know about any of you, but I'm starting to get a bit alarmed (and annoyed) by the level of antipathy brewing out there among the olde fan base toward Jamie Moyer. For the last two weeks, anytime I've seen any comment thread for practically any article about any pitcher on the team, on philly.com or the usual-suspect blogs, there have been at least a handful of posters who have felt compelled to go out of their way to make everything about Moyer, Moyer, Moyer.
For example, today in an article about Andrew Carpenter, we have:
If Moyer can win 12 games with this club Carpenter could too.
Great article. I agree with Eagle_1960 about how good it is to read about the fringe players trying to make themselves stick in the big leagues. Please trade Jamie Moyer!
Moyer needs to retire. He's a leech.
I realize that it's a mistake to overinterpret a handful of idiot comments on philly.com, that this isn't a statistically significant sample, that online commenters are not necessarily representative of the fans as a whole, and so forth, but trust me, this is not an isolated occurrence. It's happening on practically every pitching-related article. In a matter of months, Moyer seems to have plummeted straight from "overappreciated veteran intangibles guy with local ties" all the way down to "inexplicably disliked enemy of the people" - maybe not on the level of a Bobby Abreu, but perhaps somewhere in the vicinity of a Pat Burrell or a Mike Lieberthal. I am seriously wondering if Moyer will be booed in his first appearance at CBP this year. I think it's unlikely, but possible.
There seem to be two things going on here, psychologically. First, a lot of people are still holding a deep grudge over the fact that Moyer expressed discontent over his demotion to the bullpen after the Pedro signing last year. Second, a lot of people "blame" Moyer for the fact that we traded Cliff Lee for, in their words, three worthless fringe prospects. But honestly: Who cares if Moyer complained about the demotion? He still accepted it, didn't he? He was asked a question about how he felt, and he answered it honestly. What's the big deal? As for the Cliff Lee thing, while I didn't always feel this way, I am presently inclined to believe that Ruben would have pulled the trigger on that trade even if he'd had another $6.5 million under the budget to play with. That trade was primarily about the minor league system. If it had only been about the money, Ruben could have saved the same amount in other ways. And while I think we should have gotten a better return for Lee, the three guys we got are a lot better than fringe prospects.
To be sure, I am not saying it was a good idea to sign Moyer to a two-year deal after the 2008 season. What Ruben ought to have done is offer Moyer arbitration. That said, giving Moyer that contract wasn't exactly the most horrible move in the world either. As PF noted in a recent thread, Moyer's xFIP wasn't that bad last year. In fact, his xFIPs have been very consistent since he came over here from Seattle in 2006. Plus, even if you go by his ERA: yes, he had a bad one last year. But there were long stretches in the first half when we really didn't have any better options. If not for Moyer, we would have had to use either Carpenter or Unreconstructed Kyle Kendrick every five days, and who knows what that would have done to our season? Moyer may not have been better than replacement level, but paradoxically enough, it still might have really hurt us if we hadn't had him around.
As for what we should do about Moyer this year? I'm not opposed to giving him a little bit of the benefit of the doubt in his battle vs. Kendrick. If the race is close, I will not object if Moyer gets the job. And based on his recent xFIP's, I wouldn't expect him to do poorly, unless his offseason surgeries have taken a lot out of him (which is, admittedly, possible). I'd expect him to be what he's always been: a 4.70-or-so pitcher.
Of course, if he fails, he fails, and if he proves he's lost it, then it is what it is. I have no sentimental attachment to the guy. If Kendrick is clearly better, Kendrick should start. What troubles me is the number of alleged Phillies fans out there who clearly want Moyer to fail, based on what appears to be sheer personal animus and without any regard for how that might hurt the team. It's like they'll be upset if Moyer beats the odds and pitches well! I remember a similar kind of thing happening with Pat Burrell a few years before he left. When he played poorly, we had to get rid of him because he sucked. When he played well, then we still had to get rid of him because his trade value would never be higher. There was never any consideration given to the possibility that: hey, maybe he's actually better than we think he is.
It never ceases to amaze me how often you see Philadelphia sports fans value schadenfreude over winning. At the same time you have Phillies fans rooting for Moyer to pitch badly, you have Eagles fans rooting for their team to go down the tubes so that Andy Reid and Donovan McNabb will suffer, and you have Sixers fans rooting for their team to lose so they can get a higher lottery pick. The Sixers fans' perspective is somewhat understandable, but still, there's an overall trend there, and it isn't a healthy one.
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I don’t dislike Moyer, but I hate his freaking contract.
Nevertheless, like you said, if he is the most qualified guy for the 5th spot coming out of ST, then he should get the spot by all means. If Kendrick continues to pitch well in ST, but not well enough to get the 5th spot outright, it should give management some comfort to know they have options in the case that Moyer struggles again, and it might also mean a change is made earlier than last year. I remember it being positively excruciating waiting for Cholly/Amaro to finally pull the plug on Moyer last season. If Kendrick is truly improved enough to be a legitimate 5th starter, then having both of them ready is a good problem to have.
Yes, well said. But – I do want to challenge the notion that the Phillies waited a long time to pull the plug on Moyer last year. It does seem that way in hindsight, but perceptions can be misleading. Until July 31 (when they acquired Lee), Moyer wasn’t even the worst starter in the rotation, because for nearly the entire season until then, the rotation also included one of: Chan Ho Park, Antonio Bastardo, or Rodrigo Lopez.
I don’t mean to crap on those guys, given that Park was great out of the pen, and that both Bastardo and Lopez actually made some big starts for us. But the fact remains that if we’d had a better option at any point during the first four months of the season, that guy would have replaced Park, Bastardo, or Lopez before he would have replaced Moyer. It’s not like they had a guy waiting in the wings the whole time and were holding him back.
Two hands!
Moyer, aside from an understandable tho’ ill-advised pop-off to the press (at least while away in Chicago) still pitched well in the “rain reliever” role post-bullpen banishment. I admire him for that. We could use Kendrick in the Pedro Martinez role as starter 5A; would take some roster creativity that will instead be more likely lunkheadedly given away to Contreras.
I can’t get away with much Moyer bashing in my own house aside from my discomfort with his in-law proximity to Digger Phelps, as Mrs. WL is a big Jamie Moyer fan. I think most casual Phillies fans are like her and he won’t get booed. You’d be hard pressed to find a more affable Grizzled Veteran Good Guy Clubhouse Presence in all of baseball.
A 4.70 ERA pitcher on a team that scores 5.1 runs per game (and likely higher given the bottom-of-the-order matchups in Moyer-pitched games) is a nice thing to have, so long as he’s dependable. The injury and surgeries are worries, though he looks okay this spring. One thing that concerns me is that it looked like toward the end of last year that the Marlins were finally starting to figure him out.
It would interesting to know if Moyer’s numbers have been influenced by his domination of the Marlins (which I am also concern with coming to an end) since we play them so much and Manuel seems fit to juggle the rotation to accomodate this. But without his success against the Marlins would we even be having this conversation? Also can he consistently go at least 6 innings. It seemed last year there were alot of 5 inning games…I could be wrong. Although it may not be evident statistically, those extra innings of put more stress on the bull pen arms and not necessarily in terms of load which what most would counter argue as insignificant but in terms of frequency. The primary concern for relievers is the constant interruption of the recovery process that consecutive days of throwing causes. Pitching a baseball like many sports activities causes mirco tearing of muscle fibers. This is natural. This mircotrauma needs uninterrupted time to heal. Constant interruption otherwise promotes the possiblity of scar tissue and injury. So you see the dilemma. It is as with many physiological issues more complicated than my slow ass typing will permit me to explain in a feasible amount of time or that you might need some Ritalin to stay interested in. I’m sure there’s plenty in the sports science field who given all the inherent vulernabilites of the shoulder joint would require a day off in between outings for relievers but that aint gonna happen unless we go with a 16 man bull pen.
I once dated a girl from Souderton, where he’s from, and if that breakup didn’t make me hate Moyer nothing will. I think a lot of fans are upset about the contract not only because of the supposed effect on Cliff Lee leaving, but also because after finally getting a ring he seemingly took advantage of organizational goodwill and added a second year to an already dubious contract. Is that his fault that RAJ gave in too quickly? Of course not, but don’t tell the WIPers that.
People expect Jaime Moyer circa 2008 and are upset when a #5 starter plays like a #5 starter, they feel duped as a result.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Mar 13, 2010 7:26 AM EST reply actions
It’s not that I don’t like the guy, it’s not that he’s done a horrible job pitching for us. Stated above I hate his contract. I truly believe he is a waste of money, he’s taking up salary when we could have a end of the rotation guy for the same money and ten years younger. I’m not waiting for him to fail, far from it in fact. I don’t really care who the hell is pitching as long as we win, but in the same breath I really don’t want to see him starting. I think he’s outlived his usefulness as a starter and should except a role in the pen. He tires quickly and as a result wears down our pen.
Also there’s no way in hell we could have kept Lee with the Halladay trade, we killed the farm to get Doc here. I will miss Lee, but I know how business works and know it was for the best.
Scar tissue is stronger than muscle tissue. Realize the strength, move on.
I don’t think anyone likes Moyer’s contract, but what’s done is done. He’s here, and among the options for the 5th starter’s spot, I don’t see why he doesn’t deserve every opportunity. I appreciate that Kendrick has been working his butt of this spring, but looking at it objectively, are we really ready to hand the job over to a guy with a career 3.9 K/9 rate?
by PhillyFriar on Mar 13, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
I just want the 5th spot to go to who ever gets us the wins, I really don’t care who it is. I just don’t see Moyer lasting a whole season. I’m also concerned about Kendrick being reading for the big show. But they are our two best options we have I fear.
Scar tissue is stronger than muscle tissue. Realize the strength, move on.
Key Point: How many innings can he go a game
So true and that’s my concern if he can’t consistently give us 6 innings he’s a liability to the bull pen as I discussed earlier in my post above.
I don’t know. But this issue isn’t totally separable from the issue of Moyer’s overall effectiveness. I’m not sure exactly what the best way to measure stamina is, but Moyer’s median pitch count was actually higher in his 2009 starts than it was in his 2008 starts. He was just getting fewer outs with the same (or actually a greater) number of pitches, which, in turn, presumably had something to do with his unusually high HR/FB percentage.
If his FIP continues to stay where it’s been, and his HR/FB and BABIP are normal, then I would think his IP/G would go back to the 6.0 range as well.
That's the Rub
Absent any physiological empirical data relating fatigue to pitching performance that I know of this is difficult to ascertain. I have a decent understanding of sport science and know what fatigue is in terms of the basic biochemistry, and effects on different body systems but statistically speaking velocity drops, K/BB or something like I saw on Fangraphs regarding out efficiency (pitches per out) may be the closest thing to a numerical representation of fatigue available to the fan. I think ultimately it is something you’d have to test in a controlled manner; heart rate, pulse and breathing rates will likely increase with fatigue, higher ph levels in blood would correspond to the increased lactic acid production in fatigued muscle or something that measures nerve conduction to the primary movers as the fatigued muscle may display weaker impulse sensitivity. If that kind of data were available to build a model with which then related to statistics to find meaningfull points of correspondence, perhaps a fatigue composite function maybe found. I remember this was an issue you explored in a recent piece on the Hamels enigma which I gave alot of thought only to come to a similiar conclusion: experimentation, mathematical modelling, multivariate analysis. Way over my pay grade. But as you said,
If his FIP continues to stay where it’s been, and his HR/FB and BABIP are normal, then I would think his IP/G would go back to the 6.0 range as well.
which is sensible as he’s not going to go 7 or 8 innings enough times to compensate for possible a 4 and 5 inning discrepancies if the aforementioned stats hover around the values he’s maintained through out, let’s say the last 5 years of his career.
Moyer projections
Regarding Moyer/Kendrick/Contreras/Other, keep in mind that we are discussing the FIFTH STARTER. This is a pitcher that is going to be borderline at best. Mostly, the concern is that your fifth starter will not set CBP on fire all the time since everyone knows that the fifth starter will do it a lot of the time.
The best “active” pitcher winning percentage is Pedro Martinez at .687. Halladay is at .661 for his career. Chris Carpenter is 10th on that list at .613. Now considering you are looking at the fifth starter, you can chalk up a “win” if you get a win half the time. Any of the options the Phillies have is likely to allow them to do that, given the rate at which the team scores runs.
Now, on to the candidates, projections first. The numbers are from the 2010 Bill James handbook:
MOYER: 29G, 19S, 154IP, 165H, 22HR, 43 BB, 91 K, 7 HB, 8 W, 9 L, 12.6 BR/9, 4.38 ERA
KENDRICK: 14G, 4S, 47IP, 53H, 5HR, 14BB, 21K, 5HB, 2-3, 13.8 BR/9, 4.60 ERA
CONTRERAS: 20G, 12S, 70IP, 72H, 8HR, 26BB, 50K, 4HB, 4-4, 13.1 BR/9, 4.37 ERA
HAPP: 31G, 31S, 188IP, 182H, 25HR, 77BB, 171K, 12 HB, 10-11, 13 BR/9, 4.31 ERA
Over the last several seasons, here are the win shares of each player for 07, 08, 09:
Moyer: 8, 13, 6 [and lest you think Moyer is declining, here are his win shares since 2000: 5, 15, 16, 18, 5, 12, 10, 8, 13, 6 — he tends to bounce around a bit, plus at the end of last year, Pedro kept him out of the lineup — if the Phillies had Pedro again, I would make him the #5, but they don’t]
Contreras: 5, 7, 4
Kendrick: 9, 3, 2
Happ: 0, 2, 15
Happ, of course, is not on the hot seat. Just perspective. Hamels is 8, 15, 18, 10 in win shares, by the way.
I threw in Happ, since nobody is even questioning him, though his winning percentage, ERA, and BR/9 is pretty similar to the others. Just sort of a statement on my end that perception is often not reality.
How each pitcher is used will affect the stats, of course, but they are somewhat instructive in being assessments by people who are pretty smart and who do nothing but think about these things. Kendrick has shown signs that he may be better than the James gang would expect, but who really knows? Why not reduce the risk at the front end, keep Kendrick’s MLB service time compressed, and let the season play out a bit at the start? The question will probably answer itself after a few months, honestly.
The contract Moyer signed is a sunk cost. Forget it. Lacking a time machine, we can’t go back in time and save the money to keep Cliff Lee.
Assuming that the 5th starter spot is up for grabs, do you go with Kendrick, Moyer, or Contreras based on:
1. the contract each has signed, or
2. performance in a small subset of games played against suboptimal lineups in spring, or
3. some sense that the pitcher can get the job done, or
4. Concern that Moyer will eventually fall off a cliff, or
5. Being able to prepare for the future and keep the next 5th starter cost-controlled and out of arbitration
Pick your poison. I think Moyer is worth a shot until it is demonstrably proved that he is incapable of doing the job.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Mar 13, 2010 2:32 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Good post
Don’t understand the sentiment that seems to be out there that the Phils should just automatically put Moyer in the bullpen or release him (makes no sense). Frankly, the reason I had written off Moyer coming into the season was that I didn’t think he was going to be ready anywhere near Opening Day. Thought he might get back on the mound then take a few weeks of extended spring training & a couple of appearances at Reading/Allentown before coming back to the big league club sometime in May if things work out.
Most of the initial sentiment against Moyer though seemed to grow in June and it was pretty justified by his 1st half performance. Problem was that the Phils really didn’t have another viable alternative at the time since Happ had already but put in the rotation.
I don’t have a problem with them handing Moyer the No. 5 spot out of training camp if he continues to make progress with no setbacks. Keep KK/Carpenter down in the rotation at Allentown for when they will inevitably be needed at some point for a callup. If Moyer can give the Phils a sub 5.00 ERA as a starter and manage close to 6 IP/GS, that is adequate for a 5th starter. If he gets lite up though, I don’t want the Phils to give him a really long leash either. My bet is that the Phils don’t either. Probably longer than the one Park got last year but not that much longer. If he is north of 6.00 towards Memorial Day, he likely will be sent to the pen.
Moyer also deserves a fair amount of credit
For the extensive effort he made after his surgeries & readmissions to get back this quickly. I could certainly see other veterans in no rush to get back as quickly as Moyer has either given that he gets paid whether or not he plays.
I’m not certain I buy the premise that Moyer is an object of widespread antipathy in the fan base any more than Donovan McNabb is. More likely that in both cases, there’s a loud minority that really dislikes both.
I’ll add yet another “same here” to the sentiment that the guy’s contract is irksome and represented a fairly rare bad call by Smuggles The GM. Overall, though, I still love Moyer for his obvious joy for the game, astonishing production given his age and modest natural talents, and local-guy-made-good story. Not to mention that he’s the last active ballplayer more than ten years older than me; the guy made his debut two months after my Bar Mitzvah, FFS.
Moyer is right there with Pete Rose in terms
of getting the most from whatever talent it was that they were given. Moyer appears to be a qualitatively superior human being, to boot. I’m willing to give the guy a chance. MG77’s point above about Moyer working hard (at 47!) to come back from his injury is also a good one.
I’m all about rational analysis and stats, and I think that all supports Moyer, but there is a part of me that is sentimental and would like to see him pull it off for another year. That’s not to say that I will not be bipolar/nuts when he pitches sometimes, but it is fun to see him whiff a 25 year old with a 72 mph change off the outside corner or by bringing some 80 mph “heat”…
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Mar 13, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
One issue I find troublesome with Moyer is your at the mercy of who calls the game. Which isn’t is fault… though depending on the team it might be wise for Manuel, if it’s feasible to juggle the rotation if they know ahead of time. If he’s not getting the corners it’s usually a short day or a tense one. If he’s not getting the sides of the plate then he has a couple of inches up or down to possibly effect the outcome of a batted ball in play. That not a whole lot of tolerance. And the strike zone aint gettin any bigger, in fact the pitch f/x camera i believe have had the opposite of the intended affect. Umps. are calling tighter zones out of fear of being deemed inconsistent. He can’t just pitch low and away…he still needs the corners or he’s screwed.
I think this needed to be said...
Good post. And I’ll freely admit that I’ve unfairly made a few unkind remarks about Moyer last year. But I agree with you that this is primarily related to his contract. Everyone was already questioning why we gave him a two year deal. And when we traded Cliff Lee, I think a good deal of fandom transferred their disappointment to Jamie by assuming that his contract was one big factor why we wouldn’t go forward with a Halladay-Lee-Hamels dream rotation. But he is a good guy and it’s not his fault. Give the man credit. He negotiated – without an agent- his current contract. Those who called for him to simply retire or forego this money are being ridiculous. No one is his position would ever do that and it’s not fair to blame him for the contract. He was a big part of our championship in ’08, and lets hope he is a big contributor this year…
Of course, now Jamie has to make all of us calling for a stay of execution look bad…
Moyer is done in Dunedin. Final line: 3 IP, 8 H, 5 R, 5 ER, 1 BB, 4 K (63 pit, 41 strikes). Blue Jays had 7 regulars playing in B game.
Yeah, I saw that. This very well may all become moot in a few weeks if Kendrick continues to pitch well and Moyer continues to blow chunks.
by FuquaManuel on Mar 15, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Well it looks like Kendrick now has the upper hand, and deservedly so. Nine shutout innings is nine shutout innings. (Click here to see Paul Hagen and Rich Dubee gush over him.)
At the same time, I remain a bit leery of him. I was glad to hear about how he was learning new pitches over the past year, but the mechanism through which those new pitches were supposed to help was an increase in his strikeout rate. That is, new pitches don’t just help you magically – their impact should show up in your peripherals. But this spring, he’s only struck out 2 in his nine innings of work. His groundball rate has been good but not off-the-charts.
On the bright side, he hasn’t walked a single batter. What concerns me, though, is that he’s faced 29 batters and he’s only thrown 52 pitches. Obviously, it’s a great thing to throw strikes and to be efficient, but 1.8 P/PA is so absurdly efficient that it suggests the batters he’s faced this spring haven’t even been trying to work the count. I don’t think this is the approach batters will start to take once the games matter.
Good points, but wouldn’t his K-rate also rise as batters start to get into deeper counts? 1.8 P/PA isn’t even enough for him to be getting strikeouts. So in that sense, might the absurdly low pitch count also obscure the ways he might have improved as well as stayed the same?
As ST wears on and batters start to really turn it up in preparation for the regular season we should begin to see what is what I guess.
by FuquaManuel on Mar 15, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s a fair point. It would probably raise both his walk rate and his K rate. (Clearly, there’s no way he posts a 2.0 K rate during the regular season.)
I have my doubts, though, that his K rate will get above where it’s always been (in the 3.5-4.0 range). If you have strikeout stuff, you’ll strike people out no matter what approach they take at the plate. If the batters swing at everything, they’ll swing and miss.
Also, since K/BB is a ratio, the negative impact of an increase in the walk rate is much larger than the positive impact of an equivalent increase in the K rate. I mean, right now, Kendrick’s spring K/BB is infinity. But add 2.0 to each rate, and you have a K/BB of 2.0, which means we’re right back to where Kendrick was as a rookie (when he posted an xFIP of 4.69, which isn’t that bad but also isn’t any better than what Moyer did in 2009).
Marlins Moyer vs. Everyone Else Moyer
Thanks to the beauty of BBRef, I’ve decided to split up Moyer’s stats with the Phillies into two groups.. .vs. the Marlins and vs. Everyone else. Marlins Jamie has pitched like 1/2 a season of 2001 vintage Mark Mulder. You know, the one that finished 2nd in the Cy Young voting. Everyone else Jamie has pitched like a lefthanded Vicente Padilla (minus the alcoholism). Certainly useful, but nothing to write home about. That said, he’s fun to watch when he’s on.
/———-G——IP—WHIP-ERA—W-L
Marlins 17 107.33 1.13 2.93 13 4
Others 87 500.67 1.41 4.84 34 27
Overall, I don’t believe the phanbase wants Moyer to fail, they want to see someone else succeed. With the spring training success that Kendrick is having, people are getting restless over the fact that Moyer has the upperhand despite his competition clearly being the better pitcher right now.
I understand the need to make this argument in defense of Moyer because those goomba’s on philly.com and WIP are relentless. However, they’ve (and everyone else) assessed Moyer correctly. He needs to step down.
by Phils 2036 World CH on Mar 17, 2010 12:59 PM EDT reply actions
Great, thanks for sharing your feelings. But next time, maybe you should think about pointing to some actual facts or evidence.
Just because you use the word “clearly” in a sentence doesn’t actually make your assertion clear. To the contrary, it makes your assertion sound like bullsh*t. If it was really clear, you would have been able to show it.
And why would Moyer “step down”? What a stupid statement. Why is that his responsibility? If the facts actually prove that he’s the worse option, it’s on Charlie to make that call.
What facts do you need that you don’t already know statistically so far this spring when comparing the outings between Kendrick and Moyer? We are all well aware that Kendrick has been brilliant, that’s CLEAR. It’s not even an assumption. Kendrick so far deserves and has earned his way to the 5th spot based on the strength of his ST performances. Moyer has looked good against some very mediocre minor leaguers and shelled, albeit once, against everyday Toronto players. Moyer should take the demotion (step down) to the bullpen. Once it does happen, we’re going to here how disappointed he is to bow out as the 5th man, much like late last season.
by Phils 2036 World CH on Mar 17, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Kendrick and Moyer have nearly identical projections for 2010. Taking the average of the three methods used by Fangraphs, Kendrick is head by one-tenth of a run. Moyer posted a 4.74 xFIP in 2009, while Kendrick posted a 3.99 FIP in Lehigh Valley in 2009, which is also roughly comparable.
You are basing your entire analysis off of 9.0 spring training IP each, and a bunch of Stephenie LaGrossa-led P.R. about Kendrick learning some new pitches. That is, of course, a stupid way to determine which guy will likely be the better pitcher.
The fact is that Moyer and Kendrick will probably do about the same this year, unless Moyer’s unable to recover from his injuries. The main purpose of spring training is to evaluate the latter question: is Moyer healthy? If he is, then you can pretty much pick your poison, because it really doesn’t matter. In that case, it’s OK to use spring training statistics to pick the winner, but not because they have much predictive value. Rather, you can use spring training stats because, even though it’s not a very rigorous methodology, it’s at least equally fair to both competitors. Then again, it’s also OK to disregard spring statistics if you so desire. In this case, I think the Phillies will, in fact, use the spring stats to choose the winner (unless they tie, in which case Moyer will win), but just because Kendrick is likely to win the spring statistical battle does not mean that Kendrick is clearly the better pitcher. And, in any event, the spring isn’t over. It will only take one bad game from Kendrick to re-level the playing field once again.
Seriously, the suggestion that Moyer ought to “step down” becomes more and more offensive and nitwitted the more you think about it. What kind of competitor would ever take the attitude that “Yeah, that guy’s better than me, so I’m just going to quit.”? It’s funny how the “goomba” Philadelphia fans claim to appreciate scrappiness and competitive fire, but then are willing to abandon all of that if it interferes with their desire to play favorites.
I think some only want him to fail because he is older. Never mind the fact that from what I hear and read Moyer is working hard and trying. Like TP says, if he fails, he fails and so be it. But it won’t be for lack of trying hard, and some of those watching can maybe learn something from his determination.
by SmilingJPhilsPhan on Mar 17, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
The more and more you over-react to something so simple as “step down”, the sweeter. Add it to toolsy.
by Phils 2036 World CH on Mar 17, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
People who find it “sweet” when they annoy others by saying dumb things are generally known as dicks. If you say something stupid, I’m going to say so. If that bothers you so much, the easiest way to solve that problem would be to stop saying stupid things.
What’s dumb is over-reacting to an innocent statement. You’re annoyed by your own hubris at this point. How offended can you be over a simple phrase you blatantly misinterpreted for lying down and willfully handing over a position instead of the more appropriate meaning of step down = demotion. Cry about it all you want, you’re ridiculous.
by Phils 2036 World CH on Mar 17, 2010 5:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Frankly, I don’t think you’re telling the truth about what you really meant in your first comment. You’re just backing off of what you said because you recognize it was indefensible, but don’t want to admit it. What you said was:
I understand the need to make this argument in defense of Moyer because those goomba’s on philly.com and WIP are relentless. However, they’ve (and everyone else) assessed Moyer correctly. He needs to step down.
But how could “step down” have meant demotion (whether to the bullpen or elsewhere)? Moyer doesn’t have the power to demote himself. Amaro and Manuel decide who’s going to start and who’s going to relieve. So it’s obvious that you, in fact, did mean that you wanted Moyer to “lie down.” If you had really meant to refer to demotion, you would have said something like: “The Phillies need to demote him.” But that isn’t what you said.
Basically, I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t try to BS me. It’s really lame.
I’m sticking to what I meant. Interpret it as you want, I don’t have to prove the 10,000 possible meanings of “step down” because it could go on for a long time. Instead of being aggressively condescending as you were in your original response, you could at least be a bit more cordial. Sure I provoked it a bit further later on, however your total blow-up over this is beyond unnecessary.
How about we get back to baseball?
by Phils 2036 World CH on Mar 18, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
this morning's two-minute hate at philly.com
So I challenge anyone to read the comments to this article and tell me that these people aren’t actively rooting for Moyer to fail. Note that these comments were made in response to the fact that Moyer pitched well yesterday, which is apparently cause for disappointment and outrage.
Last year
ST ’09 edition brought us the battle for the fifth spot between Happ and Chan Ho. They both had a great spring and as I recall Park had a mind blowing 22K / 2BB and won the spot. We know the rest.
My point? I’m elated Moyer and Kendrick are doing well and really why would any of us want it any other way?
One con of the spring training rotation spot competition is the two pitcher’s desperate for the spot might neglect reporting any physical problems or pain they are experiencing which only has the potenial for growing into a serious injury or at the very least will affect his pitching for the beginning of the regular season. And if he does get injured then his competitor takes the vacant spot which leaves no one on the tarmac in case another starter finds himself on the DL.
Moyer's contract
Maybe the GM would like to keep Moyer around in the future so that he can use him as the new pitching coach. Or maybe, none of you people are thinking that far ahead. Hummmmm
Phils fan from the late 40’s
by fan since late 40's on Mar 31, 2010 7:26 PM EDT reply actions
alpa chino
what do YOU mean… “you people?”
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Mar 31, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
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