Report: Phillies internally discussing swap of Ryan Howard, Albert Pujols
by WholeCamels on Mar 14, 2010 4:28 PM EDT
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PrintUPDATE: Per Todd Zolecki, Ruben Amaro, Jr. "strongly denies" that discussions have taken place.
"It's ridiculous," Amaro said. "It's unequivocally false. It's unfair to Ryan. It's unfair to the organization to have to answer the questions."
***
ESPN.com's Buster Olney reports that the Phillies have allegedly been discussing the possibility of swapping first basemen with the St. Louis Cardinals, sending Ryan Howard to the Cards in exchange for ManMachine Albert Pujols. Pujols is set to be a free agent after the 2011 season and there is a very real possibility that the Cardinals will not be able to afford his expected $30MM/year-ish salary. Howard, for his part, would return to his hometown of St. Louis (OK he's from the suburbs but you get it).
Ruben Amaro, Jr., denies it. He denies it completely.
Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro flatly denied that the internal discussions have taken place. "Lies," he said. "That's a lie. I don't know who you're talking to, but that's a lie."
more after the jumpo
This is probably not gonna happen. It's sort of like me having internal discussions about trading my wife for Charlize Theron (I love you honey!). I mean, it's really really really really unlikely. But still...
zOMG.
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Putting aside contract extension considerations for a moment, what would the Phils have to part with in addition to Howard to even out the talent exchange? Howard is the greatest first baseman in Phillies history; Pujols might well be in the top ten greatest players ever. They’re both in their likely late primes, but Pujols will be an absolute beast for another 7-8 years at least and Howard should play at an all-star level for at least another four or five.
Of course, the contractual considerations are the whole story. You’re exchanging probably about a 50-50 shot of retaining Howard for a single-digit chance at keeping Pujols. Given the likelihood of Amarogeddon (see what I did there?) after 2011 anyway, that’s okay by me.
I tend to agree this is utter fantasy. But it’s a nice fantasy.
Yes I would love this, but we would have to sign Pujols to a freakin monster contract
eff you we winning anyway
A.I. IS BACKKKKKKK
we should just trade the whole lineup for pujols b/c he could play all 8 positions at once and probably be a solid closer at the same time
"My grandmom's favorite grandson, ask my grandmom" --Rone
by layout ultimate on Mar 14, 2010 5:30 PM EDT reply actions
I'm very disappointed.
I had such high hopes reading the headline, but this story wasn’t funny AT ALL. I mean, seriously, don’t try a snarky story unless you can keep it up throughout the whole article. I’d almost think it was real if it weren’t for the cartoony Amaro quote.
In all seriousness, I agree that it will never happen. If it moves past internal discussions, I would assume the conversation with StL would be short and the response would mostly consist of “no.” I also agree that any theoretical trade would require more from the Phillies than just Howard.
If there’s anything substantial to be gleaned from this, it’s that at least they’re open to any idea that would improve the club even in the wake of the Halladay deal. I suppose that’s something.
this trade would solve a lot of problems for the phillies. keeps the balance of lefties and righties in the lineup and you could let werth go after this season and move on to dominic brown if he’s ready. the only problem is you’d basically be paying pujols what werth and howard are going to make combined (take about 3-7 mil depending on performance this year). that would make a pretty huge dent in the bill with Utley, Holliday, and Pujols.
But to see Pujols and Utley on the right side of the infield? that might be the best combination of a 1B and 2B ever. Not to mention open up those “greatest infield ever” talks again!
I’d say go for it if they can get it done without giving up Brown. Maybe flip Gilles or Aumont to Stl? Maybe both? Is it worth it?
Now I know why everybody hates Philadelphia. We bitch about how are football team has know loyalty. We bitch about hockey contracts. Now this???? Why? We won the World Series with him, then another the folling year. We didn’t win but it wasn’t just Howard’s fault. People he just want to throw him away. Did the Cards go to the Series last year. How about the year before. Yes they did it before but come on are we really that kind of people. I like to win but not like the Yanks or the Pats. If we do this I will hate us.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
what? no one is blaming howard for anything. it’s an upgrade and we probably won’t be keeping howard after his contract is up anyways. i want to win for as long as possible. how does this make us the yankees? it’s not like we’re moving ryan howard to left field and putting pujols at first.
Since I was a kid the Yankees always move sombody for somebody the believe is going to be better. That is what i ment. If we ain’t gonna have him does that really mean we would have Pujols. I think the team has grown together and Howard seems like maybe you could keep him. As for the Eagles I am a Eagle fan first and all I remeber is people bitching a bout Dawkins have been done wrong. If the trade McNabb I think he would be done wrong. It seems like in football you look for team players first not just their ability. It doesn’t seem like that in hockey, when you want the best guy no matter. If this is true than we are like them and have no ( yes I say it again ) loyality. I am a great fan and even when the players I love have bad years I still hope they do better, not just better on another team. If the guy is garbage than who cares.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Mar 14, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure? I like Howard from the Jump. I feel he has done a lot, maybe not like Utley. I like him. I like Pujols too. I went to highshool for to years outside St. Louis, so if iI still lived there I wouldn’;t want Howard and I would have loyality toward Pujols. Same thing with Howard. I just know I never saw any of my teams win but once so thinking on that, no I want Howard.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Mar 14, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Howard's my favorite player, but come on.
If you have a chance at getting someone who is likely one the best of all time, you act on it. Let me repeat: one of the best of all time.
Even if that chance is .0001%. Like I think is the case here.
And this is no disrespect to Mr. Howard (again, my favorite Phillie).
by alcatraz0109 on Mar 14, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
“if you have a chance at getting someone who is likely one of the best of all time”
yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
see: roy halladay
this move would do SO much for our team – ALL THE WAY AROUND – defense = improvement. offense = improvement. no more silly ‘i wanna be like bronbron’ handshakes = improvement.
by PHIGHTINPHILS on Mar 15, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
So in your mind teams should pay obscene prices to what they feel are declining players and/or not take the opportunity to upgrade at positions simply because the incumbent has been there awhile? In that case I’ve got some land in Florida I think you’d be interested in…
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
by foos05 on Mar 14, 2010 8:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I live in Florida now and make more money and have good family now so florida land is not worhless to me just the house on it. Can also say the same of shitholes up there. The Dawkins one about him a declining player may be true, but you know we don’t lose both those cowboys game this year with him. I think if you still can contribute and are why git rid. Players are paid too much in all sports. Getting rid of Burrell seemed to me reasonible. He was declining. So was Dawk but you aren’t in there every play, he wasn ’t ( the fake punt by cards nfc 2008 ). So I do like to win I just want to have a legendary team.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Mar 14, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
So having Albert I instead of Howard would make the team less “legendary” then?
"I tried to run him over but Eli had his big boy pads on and he kind of stopped me from getting in the end zone. The next time I’ll try to jump over his head.’’ - Asante Samuel
by foos05 on Mar 15, 2010 10:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes I do because here we go with a new star every year are we the dallas cowboys.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Mar 15, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
They’ve won/made a lot of super bowls recently.
That’s just nonsense, plain and simple…first people bitch about losing and now they’ll bitch about the phils making solid trade to get better.
Maybe Philadelphia fans REALLY just want to bitch?
by jemagee on Mar 15, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
define 'recently'.
15 years is NOT recently.
A better comp would be the Yanks/Red Sox. They sign quality players and/or deal for them all the time despite their success. Maybe it’s because they’re in deep competition with each other, but they are examples of teams who always look to improve wherever, whenever. You can do fairly well with Youk at 1B and Beltre at 3B, but they’re seriously looking at Adrian Gonzalez anyway.
by alcatraz0109 on Mar 15, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
The Red Sox and yankees also don’t let things like ‘slots’ interfere with their draft policy either, they draft the players they think are best, not necessarily just signable…
And as for the yankees ‘buying’ world series – they’ve won as many as the phillies in the last 10 years or so right?
Do the yankees and red sox spend more money – sure – but they have more money to spend – they were smart – they optimized their fan base – they realized having your own tv network is a smart idea…
by jemagee on Mar 15, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
true
but I was only using them as examples of successful teams that aren’t afraid to upgrade an already strong position. I know there are a ton of other money assets they have that the Phillies don’t.
But I was countering the point Christopher A was arguing: that the Phillies would be ‘heartless’ (exaggerated) to deal a guy who’s well-established in Philly to upgrade to a guy who has a chance at being among the best players ever. I wasn’t thinking of money at all when I said it and I know how much we’d have to commit to give Albert a long-term deal if we got him (a shitload, so to speak).
I mentioned before: if you have a chance to improve your team, no matter how good it may be already, you see what you can do. The Yankees do it, the Sox do it, the Phillies have done it recently with Halladay, and they would do it again if by some stroke of luck the Cards actually agreed to deal Albert. I know money plays a very large role in the whole process but I’m just arguing the basic belief that a team should try to improve where possible.
by alcatraz0109 on Mar 15, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I suppose it was heartless when the red sox traded nomar – but you can’t argue with what happened afterwards :)
by jemagee on Mar 15, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
All of this strikes me as a very, very cruel joke on the fans. April Fools is a good two weeks ago.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Mar 14, 2010 7:14 PM EDT reply actions
Wow
Holy crap my brain is set on “stupid”. I meant April Fools is two weeks away. Unless I come from the future in which case I should warn you on April 17th 2010 Chase Utley hits a ball so hard it warps the fabric of spacetime to make this deal possible. Also lizard men.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Mar 14, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't worry
There’s free Yogurt.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Mar 14, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
SpaceTime Sleestak Effect
After years of struggling to comprehend friction, the frustrated Sleestak trade Albert Pujols to the Phillies for the Secret of Fire
by j reed on Mar 14, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Somehow, there’s a “spring forward” joke to be made here, but I just can’t get a grip on it. It wouldn’t be that funny anyway.
I’d really like an “edit” option, btw.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Mar 15, 2010 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Et tu RAJ, Et tu.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Mar 15, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
A discussion of how Julius Caesar was toolsy, but ended up being a locker room cancer that his teammates just wanted to kill?
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
by The Dark on Mar 15, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the rub
The problem with this “rumor” is that it is based on a presupposed “dark ages” idea that Howard and his RBIZ!!!! put his value somewhere in the neighborhood of the otherworldly Albert. It’s not even close. Pujols is gonna get paid, and a lot, but so is Howard, and Pujols is much, much more likely to “earn” the money.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
There's just no way this happens
Pujols is undoubtably the best player in baseball and has been the last 5 years. Tell me the last time the undisputed best player in baseball was traded. Besides Babe Ruth, I sure can’t think of any.
Omar Minaya is my hero!
"I'm not even allowed in Mexico."
Tell me the last time the undisputed best player in baseball was traded.
Alex rodriguez 2003-4?
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Mar 14, 2010 8:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Roman Maroni
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Mar 14, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
This blog is too fargin small.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Mar 14, 2010 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
A-Rod wasn't the undisputed best player in 2003-4
Barry Bonds and even Pujols had either equal or better numbers.
I’m just saying, there’s no one in baseball right now that can come close to what Pujols does.
Omar Minaya is my hero!
"I'm not even allowed in Mexico."
by Scott Coleman on Mar 14, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bonds & Pujols
Better raw numbers, but both suffer relative to A-Rod due to positional adjustments. A-Rod was still an elite shortstop at the time. Also Bonds’ video game numbers that year came in only 130 games whereas A-Rod played 161.
Whatever, this is picking nits. The point is there have been several occasions when a top-5 player has been traded, and I think that’s pretty much the same thing since there really isn’t an “undisputed best player in baseball.” For that matter I’m not sure there has been since Ruth hung ’em up.
Besides Babe Ruth, I sure can’t think of any.
hmmm…. pitchers are players right? how bout ol doc-halladay? i mean, that was within the last few months…
by PHIGHTINPHILS on Mar 15, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
It would be great if the Phils could do Pujols for Howard straight up
But that is a crazy pipe dream. Phils would have to part with some more prospects in that deal.
I love Howard. I’d love to have Pujols even at the expense of Howard. But I do not want to give up even more prospects and I am not sure if I want the Phillies to take on the huge contract that Pujols is going to command.
Proudly supporting a Flyers team with "no honor".
is it your $$$?
i’d pay another $1.00 a seat to pay for a pujols like contract… i mean, i’ve been paying increased prices steadily over the last 4 years (sunday plan) … that seems to be the way the winning franchises do it right? after all, it’s easy to think the phillies are becoming the yanks of the NL, and i’m totally okay with that. it’s all part of being the fanbase for a WINNING franchise… say it with me now, WINNING franchise… it sounds kinda nice right? i love howard as much as the next guy, but don’t tell me pujols in pinstripes wouldn’t look good and pretty much guarantee us 100 wins for the next 2 years… with pujols and halladay added to this already potent team, would that make us the favorites for as long as albert is in town? i mean hey, 3 outta 4 championships has a nice ring to it… (getting ahead of myself much? lol)
by PHIGHTINPHILS on Mar 15, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Would ANY Cards fans think this makes ANY sense at all?
Seems like an April Fool’s joke two weeks too soon.
Absurd
Just absurd. So someone in the Phillies organization said “gee, wouldn’t it be nice if we could trade Howard for Pujols” and turn our lefty power hitter who can’t hit lefties into one of the best baseball players ever? Everyone around the water cooler said, “yeah, that would be cool.” And then it becomes an ESPN headline.
Again, just absurd.
by David S. Cohen on Mar 14, 2010 8:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Cardinals Carnage
From ‘05-’09
30 G / 113 AB / 28 R / 44 H / 14 HR / 42 RBI
Whoops, I forgot in ‘08 he stole a base against the Red Birds. As long as we are entertaining fantasies…. Maybe they should reconsider at least St Louis fans won’t have yell incoming when Howard the Howitzer shell’s them with moonshots. Maybe they didn’t get the breaking ball memo on Howard…..
WAR
2002: Pujols, 6.1 / Howard, N/A
2003: Pujols, 9.1 / Howard, N/A
2004: Pujols, 7.9 / Howard, 0.3
2005: Pujols, 7.8 / Howard, 2.1
2006: Pujols, 7.7 / Howard, 7.0
2007: Pujols, 7.8 / Howard, 4.3
2008: Pujols, 9.0 / Howard, 3.4
2009: Pujols, 8.5 / Howard, 4.8
In conclusion, Pujols is a fine basball player.
I for one welcome our new robot Pujols overlord
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Mar 15, 2010 7:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I just want to see what genetic baseball monstrosities I can create when I splice the DNA from the God of Pitching with the God of Hitting
It's Hallajulos the Baseball Kraken...run, bitches run
how many days between starts do you think he needs?
or is it Cthulu?
I always confused my tentacled proto-pr0n
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Mar 14, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Mea culpa….Cthulu….I forgot the Kraken doesn’t do facial hair tentacles. Cthulu just doesn’t roll off the tongue as easily as the KRAKEN…You can roll the shit out of the “rak”.
That, and “RELEASE THE KRAKEN!!” is appropriate in so, so many times and places.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Mar 14, 2010 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
This would be the mascot of my MLB team, were I suddenly Montgomery Burns. Other than the Phanatic, of course.
Cthulu 2012. It’s not too late to get on board (hold the Palin jokes, please).
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Mar 15, 2010 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions
ok
I’ll admit this is going over my head (and yes I know it’s Orson Welles).
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Mar 14, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Panic in NL EAST!
When I first saw the the article I thought it was a total spoof and it seemed like with the smug advisory level and all the different responses some which were pretty serious, it felt like War of the Worlds…..I saw Mr. Met setting himself on fire and jumping off the Whitestone Bridge, Bobby Cox staying coronary red for the entire season, Red Sox and Yankee fans joining forces to taking over MLB Network by force and demanding we give him back to St. Loius or they’d
cede from MLB and form their own league where they’d play each other 162 times ….So naturally I compared you to Orson Wells.
You know
The Halladay rumors sort of started like this. “No way…” “It’ll never happen…”
What else do the Cards need? (Aside from another 3-4 WAR in addition to Howard). How about Ibanez? Werth? Victorino?
An infield of Pujols, Utley, and Rollins, while still not approaching th 82 Brewers, suddenly gets a lot closer to the discussion.
Oh, to dream…
sigh
I want a Pujols, too…
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Mar 15, 2010 8:04 AM EDT reply actions
feelings...
The whole thing is fairly ridiculous. I forget where I read this idea, so I can’t give CWID, but this seems like something you’d do to “soap the line” so to speak to find out where the leaks in your front office are coming from.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
I was just imagining the scenario in which this came out
It involved RA pulling tubes, mostly.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Mar 15, 2010 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Ah, so now we’re putting forth conspiracy theories. Those who betray the team are then executed on opening day and during the all star break. RA being like McCarthy screaming to all at board meetings that there are spies from Atlanta in the organization.
Let the Cold War of the NL begin!
Scar tissue is stronger than muscle tissue. Realize the strength, move on.
Or
Joesph Stalin in the Great Purge of 1937.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Mar 15, 2010 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Rubens response comes off as if he is hiding something.
If this was untrue, he wouldn’t have wasted his time in getting overly upset at the question. Rather he comes off as if he is upset that the media know what is going on. I think there is some truth to this. Ruben sucks at bluffing.
In Kolb we trust
I disagree
Trade talks can really piss off a player, and Amaro doesn’t want one of his marquee players pissed. I completely understand his reaction.
by David S. Cohen on Mar 15, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re right, that’s definitely the rationale behind Ruben’s contempt (smug advisory system FTW!).
Just musing, though… I wonder at what point everyone can sort of agree that there’s no shame in being offered for Albert Pujols. I mean, this isn’t a proposed Cole Hamels for Matt Cain swap (just pulling a name out of thin air), where we debate the merits of each pitcher ad naseum… this is the unanimously agreed upon best player in baseball. I would think that even Howard would understand, deep down, that anyone is available in exchange for Pujols.
by PhillyFriar on Mar 15, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep… I don’t see Ryan being a petulant little whiner like Jay Cutler just because we entertained the thought of trading him for arguably the best player in baseball.
by Boundforbeach on Mar 15, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
they both should be complimented by the rumor.
In Kolb we trust
by yophillybro on Mar 15, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Possibly if the rumor originated from St. Louis and not the Phils. But I don’t think he would be mad about being paired with Howard in any such trade. Very few people compare to him. If he is insulted, it would only be because his team entertained the very thought of trading him at all. But if he’s thinking about demanding 30 mil a year when his contract is up, then nothing should surprise him…
by Boundforbeach on Mar 15, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I hear you, see my response to Boundforbeach below.
I think it was mentioned by someone, but not by Ruben. I think he is upset that someone would make a story about this. He probrably did even give it any consideration, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t mentioned.
He seems to be calling the source a liar. I wonder how Pat Gillick feels about being called a liar. Somebody in his office talks too much. Ruben may have no intentions on making this deal.
In Kolb we trust
by yophillybro on Mar 15, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
He doth protest too much?
I hear you, but I’m not so sure. Looking back at his comments over the Halladay rumors, he was far more coy. When he was asked – point blank- whether the team was looking to address starting pitching in response to all the Halladay talk, he simply said “we’re more bullpen intensive than anything else…” In short, he never flatly denied it. With regard to this Pujols rumor, not only does he deny it, but he essentially (and angrily) calls Buster Olney a flat out liar. If he is bluffing this time and they are discussing such a move, then we essentially can’t believe anything out of his mouth anymore. Not buying it.
by Boundforbeach on Mar 15, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I beleive GMs mention a bunch of names.
They have to explore every possible move that can or cannot be made. I’m sure it was mentioned, but that doesn’t mean he was considering it. It only means someone may have brought it up.
He could have given a better response, a simple “No, we have not discussed a deal for Pujols, not that he isn’t a good player, but we like what we have in Howard” would have been enough.
I would bet my often not running car that it was mentioned somewhere in the front office, it doesn’t mean Ruben mentioned it, it doesn’t mean Ruben even liked the idea. But his answer in this case is a little over the top. It appears that a nerve was touched, it appears to me he is just mad that someone in his office is leaking this. I don’t think he called Buster Onley a liar, rather the source. His response was more a response to his office than Olney.
That said, no way this trade goes down. But I would love it, if it did.
In Kolb we trust
by yophillybro on Mar 15, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the closest Amaro got to denying going after Halladay was saying that he considered it “unlikely” that Roy would come here. I also remember that when asked about trading Hamels, he flat-out denied that he would, in a manner similar to his reaction here.
by ThinMountainAir on Mar 15, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I think...
Amaro turned down Pujols+10 mil. Just wasn’t enough.
For Who? My teammates.
For What? To Win.
How Much? Where do I sign?
rubes jr
rejected a deal? as in, the cards were willing to pull the trigger @ howard/pujols swap straight up if the ruby jr threw in a fat check with a 1 and 6 zero’s?
by PHIGHTINPHILS on Mar 15, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think there is a trade Ruben didn't like.
This guys trades players like playing cards. I love that.
In Kolb we trust
by yophillybro on Mar 15, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
One neat thing about this rumor...
is that it essentially cements Ruben’s burgeoning reputation as an aggressive front office mover and shaker. Between the seismic Lee and Halladay trades (the latter of which left me with egg on my face), no one can completely and immediately dismiss any rumor involving RAJ as complete fabrication. Even if this is all complete drivel, it still makes our smug overlord look like he insanely committed to winning at all costs.
As everyone has pointed out, a straight-up Pujols for Howard trade is patently absurd. There’s simply no way the Cardinals would agree to that, even with the slightly better odds they’d have of re-signing Howard compared to Pujols.
What’s more, I don’t think a fair trade (i.e. Pujols for Howard + whatever X amount of talent would be necessary to equalize the deal) would be in either team’s interest. If X is current major league talent, then what would be the point? If X is minor league talent (valued with some sort of accurate expected value projection or whatever), then I don’t think that would be in the Phillies’ interest. If our 2010 and 2011 teams were projected to win 80 or 85 games or so, then it might have made sense to allocate that talent to those years. But since our 2010 and 2011 teams are already projected to be in the 90s, I would rather allocate the talent to the period from 2012 onward. There comes a point when you have diminishing returns on talent. This, of course, assumes that it’s a genuinely even trade, in which case X would be a pretty huge amount of talent.
If we ASSUME that Howard would take a discount on a long-term deal with the Cards to return to his hometown, wouldn’t that factor in to equalizing the deal?
by Boundforbeach on Mar 15, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
It would factor in, to a degree. Basically, it would mean Howard would have a greater value to the Cardinals than he would to us. So X would be smaller for the Cardinals than it would be for us. If both GMs did an equally good job negotiating, then they would settle on an X value that would be midway between the Cardinals’ version and our version.
But: (1) I think the value of any realistic discount would still be dwarfed by the overall difference in value between the two players, and (2) I doubt that Howard would offer a big discount anyway. I know St. Louis is his hometown and I know his parents live there, but he’s lived here now for five years – I would imagine he’s pretty settled. I’m sure he would give St. Louis a discount as compared to some other random team, but not compared to us.
It shouldn’t matter whether he’d give St. Louis a discount compared to us, it matters whether he’d give a discount compared to what they consider his fair market value. They shouldn’t care whether he asks them for $1M more a year than he’d ask us for, they should care if he’ll sign for $2M less than he’d ask somebody else for. If they can afford to re-sign him, but wouldn’t be able to re-sign Pujols, he has almost infinitely more long-term value than Pujols, regardless of their comparative short-term values.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
I beleive this deal makes more sense for the Cardinals than it does for us.
How the heck are we supposed to sign Pujols? We are complaining about signing Howard? If I were StL I would do the trade today. They may wind up with nothing!!!
In Kolb we trust
hmmm
this team may be on the cusp of mlb dominance if they can muster the cash for a deal like this…
supposedly the phillies didn’t make any money last year, that doesn’t mean the wigs are in the hole, they all took their ‘dividend’ while the team itself broke even… let’s be honest here, with the team’s recent successes the front office has steadily been raising ticket prices, parking, concessions, beer, etc prices… increased revenue = better on-field product (in theory anyways)… if they project future earnings then there is no reason we shouldn’t be able to afford either of these guys, at whatever monster contract they’ll demand. let the NL adopt the DH and pay both of these beasts! i’d like to see a chart of the last 10 years of phillies salary. i’d bet you dollars to doughnuts that they’ve increased spending significantly from the year 2000. that money is coming from somewhere…. us…. as long as we keep phillin up the stadium, not to mention spend astronomical amounts of $$$krilla while we’re there, and then $25 more per t-shirt at modells on the way to and from the park, this team should have PLENTY of dough to pony up for a guy like pujols… i mean, the contract would prob pay for itself after the first week of pujols jerseys flying off of shelves everywhere (except saint loowee, but they’d even have a nice increase of rev from the hometown howard swag).
someone said above that this is how the halladay rumors began… i agree… this is something that the media will have a field day with and i wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if alby P is rockin the pinstripes on opening day…
by PHIGHTINPHILS on Mar 15, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
fat Albert is more than welcomed here in Philly. With all due respect to Ryan.
That would be the only player I would take for Howard.
In Kolb we trust
by yophillybro on Mar 15, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Howard responds to rumor...
Anyone see this. Pretty mature on his part:
But Howard discussed it this morning.
“I really don’t have anything to say about it,” Howard said. “Truthfully, I can go back to all the stuff that happened when I was in double-A — all the talk about trade rumors. I don’t know anything about anything. I’m not really focused on it. If that were the case — I don’t know if it is or not — it is what it is. You just keep going out there and doing your thing. If you get a call saying you’re trade, then you’re traded. Until that happens, I’m still a Phillie. I’m still here. Let’s ride it out.”
But what’s he mean by “let’s ride it out” (gulp)
Linky: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/About_that_rumor.html
yeah Whats up with that "let’s ride it out" !!!
I’m sure he didn’t mean anything by it. But it can be interpreted a ton of ways.
In Kolb we trust
by yophillybro on Mar 15, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Buster Olney just trying to steal thunder from DIcky V and the NCAA tournament where they can rant and rave about teams that should have gotten in that had no realistic shot of winning the tournament but still got jobbed cause Houston won it’s conference tourney.
Does this trade make any kind of rational sense UNLESS the phillies also give up half of their already depleted system?
by jemagee on Mar 15, 2010 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
And/Or
RAJ cons these guys into believing the extra scheckles for the payroll increase is being used to corner the market on frozen orange juice
$1
careful mortimer… and i thought it was pork rhinds? lol great movie
by PHIGHTINPHILS on Mar 15, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
So – how much extra do the phils have to pay because they get the younger player?
by jemagee on Mar 15, 2010 12:26 PM EDT reply actions
And LaRussa responds...
“It’s like stats," La Russa said. "Use and abuse. It’s the media; they can be really useful and they can be really abusive, but to come up with that one is abusive. It disrupts the Phillies, it disrupts the… – to the extent anyone thinks it is serious. It could distract the Phillies; it could distract here.
I am pretty sure that neither has happened, but…I would be surprised… Who wrote this? Who said this? The person who came up with that one should be tracked down and you’d say ‘Hmmm. That credibility just took a big hit.’ It is ridiculous, actually. It is really not worth speculating on other than trying to figure out who started it
I don’t think any team kicked it around, as a matter of fact, because they know he isn’t going anywhere. They’ve got more important things to do than waste their time. That’s my answer…"
No smoke, no fire. So, return to your lives, stop daydreaming, and feel free to send Buster Olney a case of haterade…
http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2010/03/15/la-russa-reacts-to-pujols-howard-trade-rumor/
PS – who says the phillies would pony up 30 million per year for Pujols – or even the 25 he’s worth – for 6-7 years – it’s very non phillies like isn’t it?
Not for nothing Ryan Howard – but if st louis was willing to do a 1 for 1 swap for Albert Pujols, i’d wave good bye to you in a second…i mean i love you and all as a player – but Pujols is better than you are
by jemagee on Mar 15, 2010 1:55 PM EDT reply actions
Here this gets 115 comments. On the Cards blog… 6. I happen to agree with the Cards fans in that this is a patently ridiculous rumor.
Or maybe the cards blog just doesn’t have that many interested folk to begin with?
by jemagee on Mar 15, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Considering that they’ve already gotten 421 comments and counting on a post titled “Colby Rasmus and Dues-Paying” that was just written this morning, I would suspect that your supposition is just about the polar opposite of the truth. It looks like their blog is much, much more active than this one.
Considering all the talk was solely from within the Phillies' FO
they probably don’t have to mention how ludicrous they feel such a deal would be.
by alcatraz0109 on Mar 15, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Besides, tony tells them what to think right?
by jemagee on Mar 15, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
St. Louis is a hardcore baseball town
I don’t know how active their blog is, but there aren’t many more pure baseball towns than St. Louis.
Yes yes, we know, it’s baseball heaven, best fans in the world and all that.
It’s still in missouri though right?
by jemagee on Mar 15, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
lol @ saint loowee
who cares what town is baseball heaven, or a bandbox, or whatever else…
bottom line is, out of the 115 posts (so far), i’d venture a guess that half of them are from the same handful of people… which is awesome, because we’re having a real discussion here. just because st louis doesn’t enjoy discussing their team online, doesn’t mean they suck or anything, we are just a little more fired up about baseball than them (with every right seeing as how the phils have made the WS 2 years in a row, and won 1 of em to boot)
that is all
Uhhh...
You do realize that 150 posts happen in approximately 20 minutes on most front page stories over there, right?
by JohnMatuszakloveschunk on Mar 16, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Traffic over at
VEB is incredible. A lot of stories hit 750+, I would say average would be 500+ in a single day. I can’t even read everything in a day.
In fairness
Half of our off-season comments have nothing to do with baseball e.g. bacon, other sports, pop culture or being pro/anti-meme. 25% are protracted arguments over semantics that somewhat relate to baseball, and 25% are our guesses and then subsequent debate over the inner-workings of LaRussa’s thinking on marginal (but maybe possibly in Cardinal-tinted glasses impact!) players like Allen Craig, Rich Hill or Joe Mather.
Not afraid to nitpick
To be even fairer,
there was significant gnashing of teeth over this debacle. It was just spread out over several posts.
STAB STAB STAB
We're toolsy
Especially taco pal
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
What if we threw in McNabb with Howard for Pujols?
by quakerfan on Mar 15, 2010 2:45 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Smug Advisory System
It should really be at ‘Disgust’ for this rumor.
Yeah, I think the updated quote should kick it up to Disgust.
by ThinMountainAir on Mar 15, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh Mitch
Watching Mitch Williams on MLB Tonight last night trying to justify how a one-for-one trade of Pujols for Howard would improve BOTH teams was just embarrassing for everyone involved.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Mar 16, 2010 12:08 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I love that MLB network has more games…and a little more phillies coverage than i would normally get.
I weep for anyone who discovers baseball through MLB network, it’s like they took the analysts that couldn’t even get a job on versus
by jemagee on Mar 17, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
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