Some Phillies Links for You - April 13, 2010: Rollins, Werth Injury Updates, Defending your Cole
by WholeCamels on Apr 13, 2010 8:29 AM EDT
Email
Print
Phillies' Rollins missing two weeks?
Where's the Iraqi Information Minister when you need someone to positively spin the impossible to spin awful news? Did we execute him or what?
No World Record Attempt for Rollins | NBC Philadelphia
I should certainly hope they cancelled this...
Phillies Taking Second Look At Injuries
Jayson Werth's hip injury appears less serious; listed as day-to-day.
Dear Philadelphia: Deal With It - On Cole Hamels
Bill fights The Good (F)ight in defense of Cole Hamels.
Opinions differ on Hamels' outing against Nationals | Philadelphia Daily News | 04/13/2010
Hopefully Hamels can straighten this out. The stuff is obviously there (hitting 93 MPH yesterday).
There seems to be this mindset among some fans that if they expect a player to be incredibly great, and he turns out to be merely good or very good (i.e., Von Hayes, Scott Rolen, Bobby Abreu), he's a bum and should be run out of town.
Q&A with Justice Samuel Alito, a Supreme Phillies fan | Philadelphia Daily News | 04/12/2010
Politics aside, it's pretty awesome to have a Phillies Superfan on the highest court in the land.
Alito is one Phillies fan whose opinions really matter | Philadelphia Daily News | 04/13/2010
Second of two parts
Naylor hurls R-Phils past Fisher Cats - The Mercury Sports
Pretty good.
Padres pound Braves 17-2...Ouch. - Talking Chop
That was a pounding.
Fish Wrap - Marlins 5, Reds 6 - FishStripes
Scott Rolen with the game winning RBI.
75 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Even before I heard the word sabermetrics, I always thought Booby Abreu was pretty effin good. I haven’t lived here for twenty some years so if there’s a side story that i missed can someone let me know? Did Abreu f**k a dead pony or something to incur such disdain?
Part of Abreu’s problems with the fans were that a lot of his value was (is) in doing things that the non-stathead doesn’t notice, like taking walks, hitting a lot of doubles and stealing bases efficiently.
His biggest problem, though, was entirely one of style. Bobby always looked relaxed and methodical both in the field and especially at the plate, and lots of silly people took that to mean that he was indifferent and lazy. It didn’t matter that he was the best player on the field; his uniform wasn’t dirty enough and he wasn’t scrunching up his face enough, so he was a bum, and the failures of the early-2000s teams became mostly his fault.
Currently, Chase Utley suffers from the opposite problem, where fans obsess over his perceived grit and determination and give short shrift to his plain awesomeness at baseball.
you know he wasn’t hustling? brilliant.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Apr 13, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I will assert that Utley and Abreu have similar aurae about them. Both are quiet on the field, not recognized as vocal team leaders, and appear to be good without a lot of effort.
Utley is loved and Abreu wasn’t.
It’s not because Utley’s white and Abreu is hispanic. It’s because Utley is the guy who might try to score from second on a WP if it looks plausible. Utley is the guy who deeks a throw to first and nails a guy trying to score. Utley is willing to get hit by a pitch to take his base.
I don’t think you can say that about Abreu.
Alright, but let’s be honest here, isn’t that all just bulls**t?
If your evidence for liking or disliking someone is that “it just seems like he does X,” without anything concrete to back that up, then it’s clearly more likely that your perceptions are being driven by your preconceived conclusion than it is that your conclusion is being driven by anything that’s actually happening out on the field.
why is that bulls**t?
Utley has done all of that. I don’t recall Abreu ever doing any of it. That’s three examples to try and explain my opinion.
I’m not telling you that Abreu is a bad player. I’m telling you why I didn’t like him as much as some other players. You can throw all the OPS at me that you want trying to tell me he was a good player and you’re wasting your time b/c I agree with you.
What you won’t succeed in is making me like him any more than I do.
Goddamnit! Abreu didn’t do any of that because he didn’t play second base, therefore he didn’t have the opportunity to. Comparing Utley and Abreu’s defensive exploits is literally comparing apples to oranges.
Wake up and stop making yourself sound like an idiot.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 13, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
You, like most of the other Abreu haters, presume you can determine ho much ‘effort’ a player is giving…and you can’t
by jemagee on Apr 13, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s BS because your perceptions are entirely subjective, and you are refusing to test them with any objective facts. Just because you “don’t recall” Abreu doing something doesn’t mean he didn’t do it. It is just as likely (in fact, it’s more likely) to mean that you had a preexisting dislike for Abreu, and so you are more inclined to remember only those things that support your preconceived conclusion about him.
If your perceptions were accurate, you would be able to find some actual evidence to back it up. There are plenty of websites out there with all the box scores and game recaps you need, so feel free to investigate and write up your results. If you can actually come up with proof, I’ll be happy to read it, but if all you’ve got is a bunch of vague, subjective, untestable recollections, then that’s BS.
There are plenty of websites out there with all the box scores and game recaps you need, so feel free to investigate and write up your results.
I don’t feel the need to look up this stuff to validate my opinions to you. I watched enough baseball to form my own opinions on Bobby Anreu. Feel free to continue to disagree with me. I’m stating my opinions, you’re welcome to yours. You’re not going to make me love Bobby Abreu.
It’s very difficult to prove the negative of something. All it takes is for one pig to fly and our perception of that is out the window. Nobody’s ever seen it happen, but that doesn’t mean it can’t.
This is not a question of opinion, it is a question of fact.
You are free to dislike anyone you please, but once you say that your dislike is justified because Player X didn’t steal bases or didn’t hustle or what-have-you, then you are obligated either to prove the factual basis of your statement or to admit that you were wrong.
If you want to back off of your factual claim and concede that you disliked Abreu for no reason other than because you just felt like it, then we can drop the debate. Otherwise, you’re not going to be able to evade your responsibility to back up your statements.
I still maintain that Abreu was disliked here primarily for reasons pertaining to his ethnicity.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 13, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess it didn’t help, but I still think it’s more to do with ‘perceived’ effort and the continued delusion that Phialdlephia is a blue collar town and they love em their blue collar athletes (i.e. Reggie Evans)
by jemagee on Apr 13, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
HBP w/ bases loaded
Utley:
93 Plate Appearances, 3 HBP, 13K (14%)
Abreu:
146 Plate Appearances, 0 HBP, 31K (21%)
You are really going to go out and say that 3 HBP are the difference between Utley and Abreu in your mind? You’re reaching now.
Did you ever notice that Utley stands much closer to the plate than Abreu? Did you ever consider that Abreu standing farther from the plate might have allowed him to be a better hitter? Did you ever consider that these stats alone are misleading, as they don’t include Abreu’s ability to HIT or WALK with the bases loaded? A bases loaded HBP is fine, but a bases loaded double is better.
This is hogwash. Stop deluding yourself. And stop insulting our intelligence.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 13, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
And if you are trying to make the point that Utley is better because he is more willing to take a HBP, do you remember 2007? How’d that HBP work out?
This macho bullshit about players being willing to sustain major injuries and thus proving how great they are is so fucking tired. This shit does not help the team. Remember Rowand?
by FuquaManuel on Apr 13, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I think he could’ve been much much better had he hustled more.
I’d venture to say this is false. Abreu was a good outfielder, stole bases prolifically and efficiently, and scored plenty of runs. In how many situations would you say he would find himself in a given season where an Utlerian attitude adjustment (assuming a difference in attitude) would actually make a difference? And how many times does hustle work out against you (i.e. getting thrown out at home when trying to score from 2nd on a WP, breaking your nose on the outfield wall)? This results in a couple of more runs a year, at most.
You can prefer one player over another for whatever reasons you choose, but unfortunately you aren’t arguing preference. You are arguing that you thought he was good and could have been significantly better (enough to justify lambasting the guy’s dedication to his career) which just isn’t true. And this is the root of so many painful fan misunderstandings – dislike the guy all you want… it doesn’t mean he sucks.
and you knew he was?
I always point to the drop in triples and steals and people make fun of me for that, but those are ‘hustle stats’.
And people chewed his head off for stealing bases and “taking the bat out of Thome/Howard’s hands”.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Apr 13, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Nobody knows anything, because nobody can read minds.
When you don’t know whether a guy is hustling or not, the correct response is to assume nothing and judge him on his results. Which is what all of us are doing. None of us are claiming to know he was hustling. What we are claiming is that we can’t know so the whole question is pointless.
You are the only one here who is claiming that his position on Abreu is justified because you were able to read his mind.
Also Abreu’s steals did not go down. He stole more bases in his last season here than he did in any of his first three seasons. This is just more proof that your perceptions are not based on any actual facts.
Yeah, except his steals didn’t drop off, genius.
In fact, between 2002 and 2006, he had 154 total steals (30.8 steals per season) and a 79% success rate.
Between 1998 and 2001 he had 110 stolen bases (27.5 per season) for a 73% success rate.
So actually your perception is entirely wrong. He actually IMPROVED at stealing bases as the years went on. Find another reason to hate him.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 13, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Another thing that dropped off was his GIDP stat. But obviously he didn’t run things out. His doubles and triples declined, but his OBP stayed up. It almost looks like a power increase, where what used to be softly dropping doubles were getting further out and were being outfield singles, while the doubles and triples off the wall/deep in the corner were now home runs. I’d want to see video to confirm that, but his HR+3B stayed nearly constant, with his decline in triples matched by an increase in home runs.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Most guys get slower as they get older anyway. Especially bigger guys. Mike Schmidt used to be a 20-30 SB guy in his youth, then stopped stealing as he got older.
What’s really surprising about Abreu isn’t that his triples went down, but that his stolen base totals didn’t go down.
triples are all about flat out speed (other than where the ball is hit and what park you hit it in) and proper baserunning paths….stealing bases is just as much about timing the pitcher, knowing what count to run on, and so forth. I remember when Dexter Fowler started with the Rox…fast a cheetah piss but got thrown out alot because he didn’t get the right jump, ran on the wrong pitch, didn’t time the pitcher’s delivery….
Also, the decline in triples coincided with the move from the Vet to CBP. It’s possible that had something to do with it.
Noticed that as well. Very interesting point.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 13, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
whoa..so this is what happens when you leave a pack of M-80’s, gasoline, and matches on the kitchen counter in Ralph Wiggum’s house
The thought that I couldn’t escape when reading all of this was how funny it would be if Bobby Abreu commented and said “seriously guys, I think I could’ve score at least 30 more runs in 2005 – i was really doggin it. sorry!”
Awhile back I used Bill James’ HOF calculator on Abreu and he definitely makes the numerical cut. He also has a few notable records (can’t recall off the top of my head), a few All Star appearances, and the HR Derby (whatever that’s worth) so, I am always a little taken aback when people speak of his name as though he is the prince of darkness. I don’t know if he is necessarily he is HOF worthy, but it would be justified if he did get the distinction.
Honestly I don’t know how that works but I would really like that to happen if he is ever considered . This is the first time I ever used the formula and it was to settle a dispute similiar to what’s been going on here.. Also he is still is a great fantasy pick-up and damn it that should factor into the vote!
If fan treatment has any bearing on the halls decision, he’ll go in as a freaking angel:)
by jemagee on Apr 13, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The real problem here is that the Phillies never had any pitching during Abreu’s run. If they did, those team’s would’ve made the playoffs a few times, the “Bobby Abreu just isn’t a winner” narrative wouldn’t have developed, and this thread wouldn’t exist.
Heh. That always struck me as an obvious counterfactual, but I suppose people could’ve just decided to hate on Abreu because the team wasn’t winning the World Series rather than because they weren’t making the playoffs. That’s what happened with McNabb, after all…
And starting to with Hamels, albeit to a lesser degree.
I was so certain they were going to make the playoffs the year they got Millwood. Funny how things work out. I blame Bowa for a lot of that.
Wait, so you’re saying that trading an in-his-prime star right fielder wasn’t the magical catalyst that spurred the Phillies on the path to winning a World Series?
I don’t think I like your tone, sir.
Abreu is the third rail around here. The site itself was formed as a haven for SABR-minded Abreu apologists. It’s grown to include cultural commentators such as myself, who resented mostly that fans who did not like Abreu had a mental image of him as a mustachioed, sombrero-wearing Mexican lounging under a mesquite tree, when in fact he is Venezuelan, and as such is an anti-American socialist with a yen for becoming a powerful regional strongman.
by Wet Luzinski on Apr 13, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
It is definitely possible that Hamels accidentally ruined his relationship with the fanbase by having what might turn out to be a career year at such a young age. That happens all the time, especially with pitchers, but it does seem that Phillies fans in particular can’t seem to forgive it.
That said, I’d like to propose a moratorium on all “what’s the matter with Cole Hamels?” discussions until mid-June or so. It’s been two starts. Cliff Lee had an ERA of 9.90 after two starts last year. Perhaps we should wait until we have some meaningful data before we proceed with the rending of garments.
Rec'd for the Baghdad Bob reference...
1. There are no American troops in Baghdad…
2. We have always been at war with Oceania…
3. Cole Hamels pitched his best game yesterday…
4. Jimmy Rollins is not hurt. He needs time off to work on beating Ruth’s record…
5. Mike Schmidt was never under appreciated in Philadelphia…
Hamels came up as a hyped player, he was going to be the next ace in the Phils rotation, a real stopper. Something the staff hadn’t had since Curt Schilling in his prime.
He did that for one year and satisfied everyone’s desires. Now it appears the league has adjusted to him. If he’s truly a great pitcher, he’ll re-adjust and move on.
Last year he pitched like a #3 or #4 starter, (which you still need…provided you don’t already have 2 of them..) and he’s done nothing this year to show that he’s improved. He’s had two starts against the lowly nats where he’s pitched below average, but not awful.
It’s not a good situation for him, because if he’d pitched lights out, the caveat would be ‘he did it against the nats’ and if he got knocked around (like he has) it looks bad too.
Philadelphia has a stigma of not appreciating talent when it gets it. I don’t think that’s entirely fair. I think that more appropriate observation is that it doesn’t appreciate talent which does one of the following:
Doesn’t appear to be doing as good as it could with more effort or
Doesn’t appreciate/recognize the fan base.
We all pick on Rollins because of his pitch selection, but let’s face it….he’s loved in the Philly area, mostly because he’ll run his mouth and play to the fans (and he ain’t half bad either).
We groan when Howard gets in a slump where he whiffs 10 times in a series, but we all know that’s gonna happen with a slugger.
We cringed when Lidge took the mound, but we forgave it because he won a pennant and stupid Chollie shoulda quit running him out there.
I don’t think Hamels is hated. I wouldn’t have booed him yesterday. I want him to do better. I suspect all the fans do. He’s in a tight spot because he was the star, and now the phils have brought in two mercenary pitchers in the past year, expecting the one-two of Halladay/Lee and Hamels to guarantee winning 40% of all starts with wins from the others to be gravy, and that’s not a realistic expectation.
Tyler Green is the last guy I can think of who was put in a similar spot. Up and coming stud pitcher, pitched awesome, then lost it and became an afterthought (due to injury I think).
Not sure what my point is now that I typed all this.
Just to be clear...
… are you trying to justify this fan behavior? Because this is patently unfair:
Doesn’t appear to be doing as good as it could with more effort
This presumes both that you know how talented the player is, or what his potential is and how hard he’s trying. You have no way of knowing either.
I would like to point out that Hamels actually pitched quite well yesterday, if you separate his pitching from the results of the opposing offense — he struck out six and walked one, while allowing only three hard-hit balls all game. Most of the damage was done on by soft liners, bloops, seeing-eye grounders, etc. Not to mention the walk on a borderline check swing and the very slightest of HBPs. Not to excuse this, but this sort of thing is heavily luck-driven; the most infinitesimal of changes in contact between bat and ball can make the difference between a bloop double and a harmless popup — well below the threshold of what the pitcher can consistently control.
you separate his pitching from the results of the opposing offense
Ummm…I think that’s like trying to seperate protons and electrons and say you still have an atom. At a certain point it stops being luck and there are other forces at play. If he pitches really well…then a soft-liners, bloops, seeing eye grounders, grazing HBPs etc.. don’t hurt you. You can say 3 soft liners in an inning is just bad luck. But if it keeps happening over and over and over, it’s reality.
Maybe it’s one “lucky” hit, which rattles him, making things like walks or HBP more likely. Padilla became a mess on the mound with runners on, maybe Cole has the same problem.
Perhaps MattS can step in with the numbers, but it’s my understanding that studies have consistently shown that while pitchers can exert some control over the type of batted balls they allow (i.e. grounder, line drive, fly ball) they can’t control what happens to those batted balls after they leave the bat. In other words, Tim Lincecum doesn’t have any more control over whether the ground balls he induces trickle through the infield than does Adam Eaton.
I agree with that, but one thing it may not always capture is the velocity of the ground ball. While hard grounders directly at fielders lead to DPs and easy force outs, they’re also more likely to get through, which also makes me wonder how he does with inducing GIDP….
in 2009 he got 11 GIDP, with a 1.286 WHIP, and 814 PAA
in 2008 he got 15 GIDP, with a 1.082 WHIP, and 851 PAA
So while that’s only 4 more base-runners erased, that also quicker inning enders which may prevent the floodgates from opening (the 0.2 WHIP difference is what’s drastic).
Rollins out 2 weeks this isn’t good with the fish a bravdos around the corner I wanted one of those crazy starts were no one could track us down probably won’t happen now.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
So it’s come to my attention that another Phillies blog is peddling the theory that Rollins wasn’t really hurt, but rather, was benched by Charlie as punishment for arriving late to the ballpark. The evidence? A first-inning tweet by CBS3 which read: “Rollins late, scratched from lineup.” I honestly thought this was a joke until I realized it was serious. Is it naive for me to be appalled that anyone would suspect that?
If that was Charlie’s theory, and that depriving the team of Rollins’ bat late in the game by having him in the opening lineup and then pulling him was worth it for that “disciplinary” act, then he should be fired.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
If it’s any consolation, most of the posters did not believe/agree with this theory, myself included.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
I guess that makes it a little better. It just shocked me a little. I don’t even think WIP would have been stupid enough to push that angle.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on The Good Phight
Related FanShots on The Good Phight
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Next Game
Washington Nationals
@
Philadelphia Phillies
Tuesday, May 22, 2012, 7:05 PM EDT
Citizens Bank Park
Jordan Zimmermann vs Roy Halladay
Partly cloudy,rain. Winds blowing out to left field at 5-10 m.p.h. Game time temperature around 70.
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- David Ortiz is angry that more people don’t see him as a leader of the Red Sox
- Reds fan catches two home runs in same inning — and then gives both balls away
- Aroldis Chapman arrested after police clock him going 93 mph (in his car) on suspended license
- The Juice: Felix Hernandez bests Yu and the Rangers, Chris Capuano and Dodgers keep rolling
- Giancarlo Stanton busts Marlins Park scoreboard with tape-measure grand slam (VIDEO)
