Deep Hurting: Braves 4, Phillies 3
by WholeCamels on Apr 20, 2010 10:29 PM EDT
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To be brief:
Kyle Kendrick pitches EIGHT SHUTOUT INNINGS. KYLE KENDRICK DID THIS.
Ryan Madson gives up BACK TO BACK TWO OUT HOME RUNS. One of them by TROY GLAUS. TIE GAME.
Nate McLouth walk-off bottom 10th off Jose Contreras.
Goodnight.
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RAGE. LOUD NOISES. ANGER.
Alright, I’m done. I think I have a mental mode that defaults to “Madson will blow the save” so it doesn’t hurt. It’s the finest in self-preservation.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Apr 20, 2010 10:34 PM EDT reply actions
I’m not sure i want all the diseases i’d get from sarah palin
Gross stupidity, ignorance and overall moronity – those are all STDs right?
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
racist?
okay…
Tigers love pepper; they hate cinnamon.
by Jareth Cutestory on Apr 21, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, you’re right. Nok-a-homa wasn’t at all a caricature. (Sure, I’ll grant you it’s not as bad as Chief Wahoo).
And yes, the tomahawk chop is a lot different than patting your hand over your mouth and screaming “lu-lu-lu-lu-lu”.
Really, stop fooling yourself.
Chief Noc-a-homa is retired.
and so every high school/college/professional team in the country that has in american indian mascot or something related is racist?
calm down…it’s just sports and no ill-will is a part of any of it.
Tigers love pepper; they hate cinnamon.
by Jareth Cutestory on Apr 21, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, as a matter of fact. Any school/college/professional team that does something as offensive as a tomahawk chop with stereotypical war chant is racist. It isn’t enough that their population has been practically exterminated, now we have to watch you dance on the grave?
And I knew noc a homa was retired, hence “wasn’t”.
*sigh*
well, I’m Irish. And Notre Dame offends me because their mascot is a leprechaun with his fists up like he’s ready for a fight! Well, guess what—not all Irish are that way! I’m so offended! I’m picketing Notre Dame!
/sarcasm
I’ve heard no one complain about ND, even though they (the Irish) were treated pretty piss-poor upon their arrival in America. The Fighting Irish is not even an issue, really. Doesn’t ND portray an Irish stereotype? You don’t hear Irish groups complaining—just like you hardly hear any complaints from our American Indian brothers & sisters. Most of the complaints are from s**t-stirrers such as yourself.
and by “IS” retired, I meant the man himself, is retired. It was a bit of a rib. That’s slang for “joke.” You take things waaay too seriously. People don’t need you to fight their battles for them. Calm down. It will be okay. I know someone you can talk to. His name is Shiloh and he will heal your pain.
Look, you lost a game. Big deal. We lost to you tonight. Boo-hoo. We still have about 148 games to go. But making blanket comments like “Fuck the racist-ass Braves” is just asinine and irresponsible.
Oh, and I’m also part Choctaw and I don’t give a damn that they’re called the Atlanta Braves. I like them anyway.
Tigers love pepper; they hate cinnamon.
by Jareth Cutestory on Apr 21, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Notre Dame is offensive for many many reasons.
Political Correctness / Multi Culturalism puts many a pole up many a rectum
by jemagee on Apr 21, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate your racist-ass franchise just as much when we win.
And actually, several theories of the origin of the “fighting Irish” moniker have been posited, none of which are racist. But I will admit that the mascot could be construed as offensive.
Unfortunately you don’t know me well enough to know that I indeed take a lot of things lightly. The tomahawk chop is not one of those things, it grates on me every time—especially when it is being performed by a bunch of hicks.
Good. You are part Choctaw. You do know that many blacks participated in minstrel shows?
by FuquaManuel on Apr 21, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
You’re right, I don’t know you well, at all.
Tigers love pepper; they hate cinnamon.
by Jareth Cutestory on Apr 21, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't you...
…feel sort of lucky about that?
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
You get that there are probably a lot of people (not just me) who don’t like you (yes i know a lot of people don’t like me either) and wish you would just go away right?
by jemagee on Apr 22, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
What’s ironic is that everything you ‘attack’ me for you do in spades and then take the moral high ground on me – you are quite entertaining actually – you make me laugh – but not like a clown cause clowns are scary – but more like amos & andy
by jemagee on Apr 22, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah, how show? Let’s get some specifics.
And while we are talking about what we mean to each other, how about this:
You remind me of a kid I beat up in elementary school. Everyone in the class was thrilled.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 22, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn't it a little hypocritical
to call people you don’t know “a bunch of hicks” just because they live in the South while trying to castigate someone for stereotyping?
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
Oh no. It’s not just because they live in the South.
It’s because they have sex with nuclear family members, take/took part in lynch mobs, race landscaping equipment, enjoy nascar, are themselves or know someone addicted to crystal meth, have Ford or Chevy pickup trucks in the flatbed of which they transport dogs and/or small children, listen to country music at the exclusion of all else, and look forward to Sarah Palin’s 2012 presidential run.
It is not a Southern thing, it is a white thing. Here in Philly we have no shortage of urban cracker-hicks—just take a ride through Roxborough.
What makes your hicks all the more distasteful, though, is that they engage in that despicable, indefensible tomahawk chop.
And before you blow a gasket, understand that 80% of this post is a joke.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 22, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh,
it’s a white thing. My bad. So if I wrote a paragraph full of racist comments about black people, what would be the reaction? I could always say it was a joke.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
No, I'm a stupid white person.
Please enlighten me.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
He’s young, idealist, and he likes to make sweeping generalizations while criticizing others for doing exactly the same thing.
I’m pretty sure he’s a socialist too
by jemagee on Apr 22, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know when you will stop playing the “young, idealist” card, but I hope it is soon.
What about your life experience makes your opinions on politics any more valid than mine?
What is calling me a socialist supposed to accomplish?
by FuquaManuel on Apr 22, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
When you get out of college you’ll experience life
by jemagee on Apr 22, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
See, this is bullshit. You don’t know how much time I spend doing things other than sitting in the library reading Marx (which I never do). So you really can’t make any judgments about what I have experienced in my life.
But frankly, it shouldn’t matter—you didn’t answer my question. Whether I “experienced life” or not should have no bearing on the validity of my ideas. There are plenty of people who even in your bizarre world would qualify as having “experienced life” who share my beliefs. So either engage my ideas or stop with this fucking condescending charade.
Goddamn I wish you kept your promise and stopped posting on this site.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 22, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, don’t even respond.
Can we just stop this? It’s fucking pointless.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 22, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel like I got out just in time ;)
let’s have another great game tonight!
Tigers love pepper; they hate cinnamon.
by Jareth Cutestory on Apr 22, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I know it’s totally irrational, but whenever Madson blows a game like this, it feels like… not like he did it on purpose, but that he blew it because he was just f***ing around and doesn’t care. When Lidge was blowing games last year, or whenever some scrub middleman has blown a game, I’ve never felt that way – I’d be pissed, but I wouldn’t take it personally. With Madson, I do take it personally. I just want to punch that guy right in the mouth. ARGH!
Bobby Abreu never looked like he was trying…man i hated that
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s because we know he has the nastiest stuff in the bullpen and he shouldn’t be getting hit this hard…and it almost seems like it is on cue when he does it.
But he has just been awful so far this season. He just doesn’t seem as aggressive with his stuff and he is fiddling around with that stupid cutter too much.
I wish he’d just grip and rip like he did during the 2008 playoffs when he came out of nowhere and was just unhittable.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 20, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s been tried repeatedly at closer
He always fails
He’s fine in middle relief, 8th inning ‘set up’ but the 9th inning confusels him – always has
Maybe if they stop, you know, asking him to be a closer…
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Well see, that’s where being jewish helps, we’re taught from birth to demand proof :)
by jemagee on Apr 21, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Back in ‘06 or so, it seemed like he’d practically patented the old “come into the game down a run, give up an insurance run, then watch the Phillies score one run in their last AB” routine.
I was at a game back in 07 against the Diamondbacks. Freddy Garcia started. It was 3-1 in the ninth and Madson came in and gave up 2 runs. Bottom of the inning, Dobbs hits a 3 run jack, Phillies lose 5-4.
He might just be a mental patient when it comes to pitching in high leverage situations, but that doesn’t explain why he was so damn dominant during the 08 playoffs.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 20, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s also that he seems to have an uncanny ability to blow games that are especially important to his teammates, or where his teammates fought extra hard to get the lead in the first place.
Kendrick was lucky yesterday, but he still deserves some credit for his outing. At the very least, it was a special outing because it was so out-of-the-blue and came at a time when he really needed it. And as PF says below, the offense just had a great approach against a tough, tough pitcher. And then Madson just threw it all away.
I know perceptions are misleading so I’m not endorsing the above, just saying that’s the way it is.
It makes me sick to agree with the WIP caller...
…but maybe they’re right: maybe Madson really isn’t cut out to close. I’m no psychologist, but the guy seems to fear of the 9th inning. His pitch sequencing for those at bats was just HORRIBLE.
Sucks that it erased a workmanlike effort from the offense, who grinded out Hanson to the tune of 100+ pitches through 4.2 innings. They deserved better for that performance against a very good pitcher.
by PhillyFriar on Apr 20, 2010 10:35 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
And when I go back and read that, I made at least 15 spelling and grammar mistakes. I’m blaming that one on Madson too — he’s the one who made me angry and irrational.
by PhillyFriar on Apr 20, 2010 10:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
But it’s been obvious for a while now that Madson isn’t ‘cut out’ to close – then again if it’s the 8th inning – charlie goes with multiple pitchers to get the most favorable pitcher/hitter match up but somehow that’s not allowed in the 9th (when if it works out you don’t have to worry any more but in the 8th you still have one more inning).
It isn’t Madsons fault if he’s continually put in a position where he’s failing.
At some point it’s the managers fault for continually putting him in that position.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Reminds me of the lidge situation last year
by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Apr 20, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Thing that pissed me off about him was that EVERYONE knew he was injured and they did nothing but run him out there again to fail…stupid insantiy but lidge was ‘toughing it out’ – god i hate that
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, at some point Charlie has to move on to someone else as the emergency closer. I’ve never seen someone really grow into that role. Also, the entire idea of a closer works great if you have Dennis Eckersley or Lee Smith, but why Managers seem dead set that what worked for the previous 3 innings of relief suddenly becomes ineffective in the last inning is beyond me.
The closer pitches the 9th inning
so sayeth the book
by jemagee on Apr 21, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
When do we start to incorporate blown holds?
by jemagee on Apr 21, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that if you blow a hold, it gets recorded as a blown save.
by ThinMountainAir on Apr 21, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not like he was great in non-save situations this year. He’s pitching like a pussy right now…I hate to say it. Not throwing the right pitch at the right time and not hitting his spots.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 20, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Who calls the pitches when Ryan Madson pitches, him or carlos ruiz?
If he’s missing the spots, fine, but i’m guessing the phillies have at most two pitchers who get to call their own pitches, that’s just how baseball works.
And aren’t the phillies one of those teams that goes to the dugout a lot to decide what pitch to throw?
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
wouldn’t that be a bit contrary to what the pitching staff says? I am always hearing praises thrown Ruiz’s way about his game calling skills.
Sure, he calls it
but the pitchers have the right of refusal.
by Screen Name 20 on Apr 21, 2010 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t get home until the bottom of the sixth, but it was obvious they were working Hanson. That sort of effort should lead to a win.
That Kendrick turned back the clock to 2007 makes it all the more painful.
Ugh. I hate relief pitchers.
by dajafi on Apr 20, 2010 10:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Three losses in a row too. Halladay really needs to come up big tomorrow. Show us how he earned that reputation as a “stopper” or we could be looking at a 5 game losing streak with Moyer pitching Thurs.
What was the phillies record after 3 weeks in 2008 and 2009?
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
The tying run
I was listening to the radio and shouted “are you kidding me?” just about a second before Larry Andersen did. Damn.
by David S. Cohen on Apr 20, 2010 10:52 PM EDT reply actions
and lay off my Dilaudid. all mine. not sharing.
nitey night
:::weeps:::
by Wet Luzinski on Apr 20, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
My T-Cell count is low, I regret tthat news
but how do you feel today?
Best I felt all year
Why Choose fear
I’m a new yorker, fears my life
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The mainstream media doesn’t read a blog like this, cause, well, they’d understand less than I do
by jemagee on Apr 21, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Jesus could descend from heaven on a giant robot bear tomorrow, and I’m sure all we’d hear about on most major news outlets would be JASON HEYWARD HIT A HOME RUN OH MY GOD GET YOUR HALL OF FAME BALLOTS OUT
Good player for sure, but people need to lighten up on the hype a little bit.
Actually I don’t think the heyward hype is any more or less annoying than any other phenom hype – i mean imagine what happens when strasburg pitches his first game in washington – we’ll get pitch by pitch updates.
However, I think fans are taking the heyward thing more personally.
It’s like giants fans – man do they hate when you pick on their very very fat panda
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude is a slob. And his stupid pre-at-bat “ritual” pisses me off to no end. But then again, maybe I just hate fun, love, and fat people with dumb nicknames.
Well, then I believe you fit right in with the Phialdlephia fan base (mostly, we love fat people, just ask the 93 team)
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
WC is again to blame
Better hope Hanson has an off night, or Kendrick manages to coach some screeching line drives directly to his fielders.
by jemagee on Apr 20, 2010 11:14 PM EDT reply actions
Madson
2008 – Bridge to Lidge
2010 – Bridge to Ledge
by andyreidswaistline on Apr 20, 2010 11:19 PM EDT reply actions
That's his problem
he probably can’t get any push of the rubber in those shoes…
by Screen Name 20 on Apr 21, 2010 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I watched most of the game (flipping to Flyers some). When Madson gave up the walk to Chipper, I said to myself lose the game. Why? It is early in the season and I want this team to win. To win they need to stop walking so many, and correct problems early. Afterwards, CSN stated Rueben needs to go and find more help for our bullpen. We are not going to win it all with our bullpen this year. Let’s correct the problem now and learn from our mistakes.
I expect to see changes soon.
The walk was bad I agree…but I was more disturbed by his seeming lack of interest in really going after Chipper with one out and the bases clear. It just seemed like he had no interest in challenging him with anything near the zone.
Also, they are major league pitchers, not little leaguers, 1. They know that walking people is generally not good. 2. They aren’t suddenly gonna learn how to not walk people.
I don’t think there is any didactic value in losing this game in the sense you suggest.
by FuquaManuel on Apr 21, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I agree esp. because it won’t change anything terms of spending money. Also, what do you do with this guy. His got great stuff but maybe not the gamesmanship to use it right? I’d like to see him with a 3/4 arm slot than an over the top slot but that’s not something to fool with now. All i know is he can pitch in the upper nineties. Blow the fucking ball by them and work both the sides of the plate. Papelbon does it. It works for him. Use a change-up now and again. I say we just throw matheison in there…maybe he takes to it. How about Durbin…he reinvented himself….I’m just throwing shit out there because I don’t have any answers. maybe he’s tipping pitches…maybe he needs to wear women’s under garments…..
crap
my dvr shut off after the top of the 9th and I have to come on here and see this bs, this stinks, the phillies really needed this game, kendrick actually pitched well, way to give the braves another comeback win to lead the nl with six, can’t believe they lost this game, at least the flyers won.
I had to leave for work right after Jesus tied it up in the ninth. Didn’t know the outcome till now. Looking at this series I though KK and Moyer would be meat and Doc would do what Doc does. Trying to find something positive I’d say KK was Hamelesque minus the K’s and the Phils got Hanson out early ( Chooch in 2 AB’s had 17 or 18 pitches.)
As for Madson blowing another game, well he’s proven he’s not a closer and when I hear Anderson et al say he could be our closer in the future i want to smash my face with a hammer.
man!
I hate going to bed angry! this game just really got to me! I can’t believe they lost this game! ARRRRGH!!
Kendrick and Madson
After this game, I tweeted that this biggest danger of this game is that it encourages the Phillies to use their worst SP candidate, Kendrick, more in that role, and avoid using their best closer candidate, Madson, less in that role. Reading through these comments, I’m seeing more evidence of this flawed thinking. Kendrick was pretty good at making his pitches yesterday, which is why he got 16 ground balls in 28 hitters, but he still only struck out 2 hitters out of 28. There are zero major league pitchers who have been capable of succeeding while striking out less than ten percent of hitters they face. It’s just impossible to do. If Kendrick can’t strike out 10% of the hitters he faces when he is at his best, imagine him on a day he’s missing his spots. Kyle Kendrick should not have been allowed to start, because there probably are 10 guys in the organization capable of pitching better than him in that role. I don’t even know who, but there are 10 guys in every organization who are capable of striking out 10% of hitters. There are others on the waiver wire. Kyle Kendrick is chasing past returns. He had a nice game, getting 16 ground balls like I said, but he’s bad at pitching.
Ryan Madson on the other hand, is now being treated like a failed closer. Talk about confirmation bias! Troy Glaus’ home run landed in the first row in left-center field. I want to know how many people would be calling for his removal from the 9th inning if there had been a small breeze that pushed that onto the track and into an outfielder’s waiting glove. Next, Jason Heyward’s home run landed in the second row. If a slight breeze had been blowing during those few seconds and the Phillies had won the game, how many people would be calling for Madson’s head? He would have made the same mistakes, thrown the pitches in the same spots, but they just wouldn’t have been home runs. Or, suppose there had been a gust of wind blowing out during Howard’s last at-bat and they were up 5-0 and they won 5-3. Ryan Madson has struck out 8 of 32 hitters he’s faced this year, and gotten 13 ground balls. He’s walked two. Why he walked Chipper Jones makes no sense to me. Chipper doesn’t swing at pitches out of the strike zone, so it was either dumb pitch calling or awful aim. That seems like the real mistake. If Chipper hits a home run, they are in no better of a situation. They still needed Glaus and Heyward to score for it to matter, so Chipper being on first makes no difference.
That was a terrible, terrible game, and I woke up in a rotten mood because of it. I hate that they couldn’t put that stupid team away. But anybody who feels much better about Kyle Kendrick or much worse about Ryan Madson after that game is mistaken. Anybody who thinks this is proof that Ryan Madson can’t pitch in the ninth inning is just buying into the “closer mentality” nonsense.
Due deference to the lord of SIERA, but this is nothing new with Madson. Even if one isn’t buying into the cult of the closer, Madson has never closed at a reasonably safe rate when call on. The biggest and most valuable data set was last year when he had 10 saves and 6(!) blown saves.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Apr 21, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Madson blew some of those supposed save situations in the 8th inning. Saves and Blown Saves are already terrible statistics, but Blown Saves for part-time set-up men are just ridiculous.
Madson’s ERA in the 9th inning last year was 3.47 while in the 8th inning it was 3.54. In save situations, he had 40 K and 10 BB, while in non-save situations he had 38 K and 12 BB.
by Matt Swartz on Apr 21, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Just one 8th inning blown save
But if you’re going to look at his total blown saves, you need to look at holds too. He had 36 total saves + holds out of 42 chances.
This is very true, thank you for the correction, both of you.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Apr 21, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously to make this all right they need to incorporate the blown hold stat
by jemagee on Apr 21, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
On the closer mentality nonsense
Actually, let me expand on the closer mentality nonsense. People claim that there is a “closer mentality” but there are actually two competing images of such a mentality. There is the “ice in his veins” closer mentality. Think Trevor Hoffman. There is also the “fire in his belly” closer mentality. Think Jonathan Papelbon. These two supposed mentalities are only inferred from behavior. The behavior associated with FIHB closers is demonstrative, excited behavior. Fist pumping, screaming, etc. FIHB closers supposedly succeed because they have the adrenaline flowing to rise to the occasion. The behavior associated with IIHV closers is different. They are calm, stoic, unfazed. They are non-demonstrative. They nod their heads when they win, maybe smile. They seem above it all. They supposedly have the ability to keep the adrenaline from flowing too much, and just execute in hectic surroudings. Naturally, there are two kinds of non-closer mentalities. There is a non-closer image that “lacks ice in his veins” and one that “lacks fire in his belly.” The former is characterized by letting his adrenaline flow too much, as evidenced by his demonstrative behavior. The latter is characterized by not generating the necessary adrenaline flow, as evidenced by his non-demonstrative behavior. It seems pretty clear to me that a demonstrative pitcher in the ninth inning who succeeds has fire in his belly, while one who fails lacks ice in his veins. Similarly, a non-demonstrative pitcher in the ninth innings who succeeds has ice in his veins, while one who fails lacks fire in his belly. Here’s my question: which is Madson? I think Madson is more the guy who lacks the fire in his belly by these stnadards. Of course, if there had been a breeze, Madson would be our new closer with ice in his veins.
by Matt Swartz on Apr 21, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that characterizing the mentality is a moronic endeavor. However, I do believe some people are cut out to close mentally and others aren’t. I’m not a fan of the role, but there is a different degree of pressure pitching the bottom of the 9th on the road to a team’s 3-4-5 hitters, than there would be doing the same on the road in the 7th or 8th inning when the Offense or other relievers can still bail you out.
I think the closers mentality comes down more to the difference between someone who thinks “I need to protect this lead” vs. someone who thinks “I need to dominate these hitters”. The first person may be too precious locating pitches and trying to keep the hitter from making contact while the second type may challenge a hitter more.
Consider the set of all people who can throw over 85mph who have ever played baseball before. Now think about how many of them had scouts come to their games. How many of them thought to themselves “I need to perform”? Probably all. How many failed? Some. Where are they? Not in the MLB. How many succeeded? Some, and many went on to pitch in the minors. How many of them thought to themselves, “I need to perform” when they got to the minors? Probably all. How many failed? Some. Where are they? Not in the MLB. How many players got close to the MLB and thought themselves “I need to perform.” What was at stake? The difference between being a multi-millionairre and being a random guy who played minor league ball once. How many failed to make the majors? Some. Now look at the remaining people who made the majors, who did not fail when the chance to play pro ball, the chance to become a multi-millionairre, and the chance to stay at the big league level. How many of them don’t have the stomach to pitch in the 9th inning but have the stomach to pitch in the 8th inning? How different are these people in their abilities to man up and do their best— however good that is— when the going gets tough? I think that plenty of chokers exist in the world. People who try to “not fail” rather than “succeed” are a large portion of those. But I don’t think there are many of them who sniff the 8th inning or the 9th inning of a major league game in front of 40,000 screaming fans. The data supports this theory, as clutch skill in all forms is pretty elusive and if it does exist, it’s ridiculously small.
I don’t mean chokers, per se, as I agree MLB probably has scant few, if any. But that’s not to say someone might not alter their approach when pitching in the 9th inning with a one run lead, vs. pitching the 8th with a one run lead. I would rather a manager treat the 9th the same as other innings, and if the inning calls for using a LOOGY and middling reliever with a great track record against a particular hitter then so be it. I think the role of closer creates the pressure more than the situation does. If Cholly sends in Madson, no one else warms up, but if he sends Durbin it to face the first few hitters, maybe he keeps Bastardo throwing to deal with the tough lefty and gets Baez up to deal with any hitters after the lefty in case anyone gets on base. The whole closer idea is like Russian Roulette, because if the Closer gets into trouble, byt the time someone else could get warmed up from ice cold you’ve probably already blown whatever lead the closer was sent in to protect.
I think Matt’s point is that you or I might alter our approach in the 9th inning to deleterious effect, but the odds that ANYONE in the major leagues is ill-equipped to deal with high pressure situations are vanishingly slim. These guys are professional athletes, and our armchair psychological arguments based on high school sports we played don’t apply to them. As attractive as it is to assume pitchers are regular people who can just throw the ball really fast, it isn’t true.
Re: FIHB vs. IIHV
Some illustrative quotes:
Mariano Rivera in the NY Daily News, on Billy Wagner blowing a 4-0 lead against the Yankees the previous day:
“As a closer,” he said, “sometimes you’re not into the game mentally with a 4-0 lead.”
Billy Wagner, quoted on ESPN.com, regarding allowing a 2-run homer to Victor Martinez in the All-Star Game:
“What happens with closers in that situation is that sometimes you get a little too much adrenaline.”
So, Wags/Mo, which is it? Precisely how much adrenaline do you need? Perhaps Madson was short a few cc’s last night.
by ThinMountainAir on Apr 21, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
They got the most wonderful gift in the world — a very good Kyle Kendrick start — and they farted it away.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Apr 21, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t speak for everyone here, but I don’t suddenly think KK is a solid option to start based on last night. As you said, he plain and simply doesn’t strike enough guys out, and it’s not like he can reliably induce 60% grounders and limit the walks to 1.5 per 9 innings to make up for that shortcoming.
As for Madson… he’s still the best reliever the Phillies have, there’s no doubting that. But at the risk of sounding like I’m buying into the “closer mentality” crap, Madson seems like a mental midget whenever he’s entrusted with the closer’s job. Not just save situations, either — witness the 2 runs he surrendered in the April 15th game when inserted for the purpose of locking down the 1-run deficit in the top of the 9th. I guess I’m just not sure why he refuses to throw his change up. Is he overthinking? Is he putting too much pressure on himself? Those are things none of us can really know, though the byproduct is frustrating to watch.
I’m not actually advocating Madson be yanked from that role; I’m just expressing frustration that a guy with his stuff and peripherals isn’t getting the results that you would expect.
It was really just one guy who advocated yanking Madson, and as far as I can tell, nobody in this thread said they are now confident in KK because of this start.
Personally, I don’t think Madson should now be yanked. I just think Madson is a bastard.
His parentage aside, until LIdge is back who would be a better option, assuming Monsieur Manuel doesn’t suddenly buck the system and pitch the 9th like it’s an inning in which you need 3 outs as quickly as possible and not the end of the world.
As for Kendrick, he had an ok outing but was it luck or skill is always the debate with him
by jemagee on Apr 21, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I think KK should now be the closer, he proveded himself.
Seriously though, I didn’t think I would say this, but I wish KK had been allowed to come back out for the 9th. Clearly his deal with Satan was working, his pitch count seemed pretty low (admittedly I don’t feel like looking it up), and whatever mojo he had going may well have carried over (plus I think I guessed under on the Complete Game question). You could have still had Madson ready and kept KK on a short leash.
108 after 8 I believe
That’s about all I’d want him to go this early in the season. Sucks that he lost the W (sucks for the team, anyway) but such is life.
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