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Mike fought the Law and the Law…um…something


Yesterday on 97.5, some incredibly ingenious program director got Keith Law, national ESPN writer, to come on to Mike Missanelli’s radio show on the  ESPN affiliated radio station to discuss Howard’s contract extension.  This was to be a beautiful showdown between old school mentality and current objective analysis.  What we got were two smug jerks sounding like two smug jerks.  Most people will know that we here at The Good Phight fall clearly into Law’s side of analysis.  So, it would seem like I would be happy to see him go head to head with Mike, who clearly has a sloping forehead, hair in places he shouldn’t and got recently laid off from his car insurance commercials.  The end result was that I actually felt like I was on Missanelli’s side, only cause Law just really really sucked.

Star-divide

I think what bothered me the most is how unprepared Law was.  He fights for the nerds with numbers side, yet he really had no defense to almost anything Mike said.  I felt like he was trying to not look like a numbers dork and instead, he looked wishy washy and ignorant.  Mike starts the interview off being extremely dismissive.  You don’t like this deal because of actuarial tables and sabremetrics.  That basically is as undermining of a first comment as possible.  Law comes back with generalities that Howard isn’t worth the money now, he doesn’t play in the middle of the diamond…all stuff that is intuitive to a stat nerd, but clearly means nothing to someone who watches the games.

Mike shoots back with chicks dig the longball and you put the other aspects in a box, because he has a specialized skill that he should get paid for.  Not sure what that really means, but it ends up being a trap where Law now starts to argue something he shouldn’t…Howard and the homer.  Keith goes on how it is 8% of his total At Bats and you have to account for the other aspects of the game, which is really short sighted.  Now we get into the meat of the argument when Missanelli calls Howard the preeminent power hitter of our generation.  Now, I am not going to argue for or against that cause Howard has done things nobody has ever done before (like his speed to 200 homeruns) but it is also a useless moniker that really has no meaning.  What do you do with a moniker that has no real meaning?  You certainly don’t let them argue it on their terms.

Mike shoots at Keith asking who is a better power hitter now, and stupidly Keith starts to name players like Fielder and ARod.  Really Keith Law?  That is how they told you how to argue your points?  Instead of refuting with facts and trying to define what you are talking about, you throw names out there and expect that to suffice.  None of those guys have hit homeruns like Howard has and in no way would that appease Misasanelli.  So, Law then mentions that other power hitters who get on base and contribute in other ways and Missanelli shoots back with Howard’s career .375 OBP.  Mike then puts words into Law’s mouth and Law goes on the defensive.  Missanelli is 100% correct here that Law brings up OBP and walks and when Mike refutes it by saying Law implied Howard was bad at it, Law says, "I never said that".  Keith, it doesn't matter what the truth is when you let the other person define what you say.

Law then compares Howard’s OBP to the guy to his right (Chase Utley), which is a useless argument to make since most people here would be happy with Utley making $25 mil a year.  However, he finally comes back with some hard hitting data, that Howard’s OBP the last 2 years has been rather weak, and something he should have mentioned right at the beginning of the discussion.  Then Law goes back to being a know-it-all and tangents about pitchers and how they pitch better with nobody on base and now Howard is a slightly better hitter cause Chase gets on in front of him.  Just more garbage that adds nothing to the conversation and really detracts from his point by diluting it.

The conversation starts to degrade about the preeminent power hitter and what it doesn’t mean and nothing gets explained.  Law asks who is going to pay for Howard and Mike says the Yankees.  Instead of being intuitive and stating that the Yankees don’t spend $25 mil on a DH and they might need a spot for ARod in 2 or 3 years, he mentions Jesus Monteros.  Seriously?  Think about who you are discussing with and how this sounds to them and the audience.  I cannot fathom how he thought that this was going to refute that the Yankees won’t pay for Ryan Howard.  Now anyone who listens to that argument thinks Law and his stat nerds think that Jesus Monteros is equivalent to Ryan Howard. 

Eventually Missanelli thanks Law for coming on and Law hangs up like a little baby.  The guy just came off as sounding like an elitist and hangs up instead of shaking hands at the end.  Thanks buddy for reinforcing the stigma that us nerds with number have.  I am just thankful he didn't go into his Howard can't hit lefties diatribe.  Maybe he knew that would be a losing argument from the get go.  Either way, I am pissed cause Law was sucky and he should have been able to wipe the floor with Missanelli.

Here is a link to the interview for those who haven't heard it.

http://www.975thefanatic.com/teams/phillies/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10110581

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Yowzers.

Law went off the rails when he got into a meaningless argument about the phrase “preeminent slugger of his generation.” He was right in asserting (as you did, jonk) that it’s essentially a useless moniker, so why didn’t he just concede the point? There were a million ways to undercut Missanelli’s argument, and instead Law allowed himself to get sidetracked into a meaningless semantic debate.

Law did bring up some very good points, but they were overshadowed by that useless debate along with Mikey Miss’ zinger on the OBP point and the reference to Jesus Montero. A real shame, as you said.

by PhillyFriar on Apr 30, 2010 9:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Missanelli is a lawyer, and it's his show...

2 MAJOR advantages there. He’s going to absolutely destroy people with no credibility (see his insanely lopsided showdown with Skip Bayless), and more often than not he’ll have the upper hand against people with credibility (Law).

That said, I couldn’t agree more with how bad Law was on the radio. Law was bringing a gun to a knife fight, but Missanelli told Law his shoes were untied, smacked the gun out of his hand, and stabbed the crap out of him.

by JimmyK on Apr 30, 2010 9:47 AM EDT reply actions  

Oh he’s a lawyer, that does explain quite a bit why he is such an utter moron.

by jemagee on Apr 30, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let’s not say things we’re going to regret (although he is a dumbass I think that’s completely independent of his legal education)

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Apr 30, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

My mother was routinely sued unnecessarily while she was in practice as a member (at the time) of the most sued medical specialty (OB) and royally shafted by divorce lawyers.

But then again, if he was a good lawyer, wouldn’t he be more successful as a good lawyer than a crappy radio talk show host on the retarded little brother of WIP?

by jemagee on Apr 30, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

"wouldn’t he be more successful as a good lawyer...?"

I think you’re onto the main issue here.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Apr 30, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

And two members of my wife’s family were killed by medical malpractice (at the same hospital!) over about a 10 year period. Doctors suck!

Seriously though… I am a good lawyer (at least all my reviews say so!) (also, I’ve never sued anyone!), and if you gave me the opportunity to do a sports talk show (if it was a secure one) I’d bolt in a second.

by wildcatlh on Apr 30, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I come from a long line of legal beagles, but didn’t become one. Then later in life I stumble upon baseball blogs that are just rife with them. So clearly I can’t shake them.

I’ve always enjoyed my father’s parody of the NRA slogan: Lawyers don’t sue people. People sue people.

That said, I am a strong advocate of lawyer control.

by Wet Luzinski on Apr 30, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

If lawyers are outlawed, only outlaws will have lawyers.

by taco pal on Apr 30, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

everyone hates lawyers, except their own…

by Boundforbeach on Apr 30, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually kind of hate myself, so it’s all very confuzzled

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Apr 30, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

then maybe you should go retain yourself…. I’ll be your local counsel.

by Boundforbeach on Apr 30, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

He went to law school and took the bar but he never practiced.

by taco pal on Apr 30, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think he teaches some law class at st. joe’s…
i like mikey miss, if only because he’s a 10-fold upgrade over the competition (eskin)… but that station (97.5) is turning into 610 in that, there is less focus on sports and more focus on pop culture. i’m a big fan of mikey’s producer, johnny marks – he is closer to my age and i relate a little better to him. but i like mike in the way you love to break the stones of your big bro (or sis)… he’s a guy you ‘love to hate’ imo. but the real winners on that station are bruno and marksy…
mike is on par with ruby jr.’s smug alert system for sure. orange alert? nah, not yet…

by PHIGHTINPHILS on Apr 30, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I assume that’s just a “law” class as opposed to an actual law class, seeing as how St. Joe’s has no law school. He’s teaching undergrads.

Hey, maybe David S. Cohen should get together with Missanelli! They can teach a class together!

by taco pal on Apr 30, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

You complain about 97.5’s increased emphasis on pop culture and yet you are a fan of the most uninformed, biggest dope on the station who does nothing but made 3rd grade jokes about various parts of the female anatomy?

by fleeb on Apr 30, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

congrats

on pointing out my hypocrisy. you: 1, me: 0

by PHIGHTINPHILS on Apr 30, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ugh

It’s guys like Law that set the SABR community back years. He’s such a smug jerk you can’t help but want to disagree with him, and if you’re not familiar with what he’s talking about you’re probably going to do just that out of spite. Hell, I held off on learning this stuff for a year plus because of that kind of attitude, which for a while seemed to go hand in hand with statistical analysis in baseball.

(This was before I found this blog, of course.)

Let’s face it, this was the perfect interview pairing because the only major difference between Law and Mikey Miss is that Law has the factual high ground. It’s also why I’m never, ever clicking on that link.

by Aphilfan on Apr 30, 2010 10:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Preach that. Law is horrible. I actually think he’s a smart guy, but he’s a terrible spokesperson for our side and always has been.

This story actually reveals two reasons why he’s so bad. I had previously been aware of only one. The one I hadn’t been aware of is the fact that he just doesn’t have the skill to debate in real time. Reading this reminded me of what happens when a professor or some other type of serious-minded person appears on the Bill O’Reilly show. If you want to debate on TV or radio, you need to have TV or radio skills. Law doesn’t.

But at least the professor on the O’Reilly show inspires sympathy from smart people. Law doesn’t even do that, because on top of being an unskilled spokesperson, he’s also a jackass. Even if he was able to win arguments (which he apparently can’t), he would still drive the majority of his audience toward his opponent’s viewpoint because he’s such a deliberately arrogant and unlikeable person. Most of the time he doesn’t even express his views in a way that is designed to persuade. He is willing to sacrifice persuasiveness for the sake of being more offensive. The J.A. Happ debate was the perfect example of this.

by taco pal on Apr 30, 2010 10:16 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree 100%. What’s funny is when smart people argue with people who are also intelligent, but maybe less knowledgable on a subject, they look good. I can run circles around my dad regarding baseball because neither of us are “arguers” though I am certainly better than him AND I come armed with facts.

Law probably looks good when writing stuff out or arguing with baseball people who aren’t skilled in the art of debate, but put him up against Missanelli who’s job it has been for his entire life to think on his feet and Law falls for such traps and logical loopholes it is embarassing. Mike just lead him down his path and I have to imagine that Law will listen to this discussion again and think, “WTF, why the hell were we talking about that?”

I don’t agree with Missanelli with much, but he knows how to control a conversation.

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Apr 30, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is my feeling on Law as well. Even when he has a good point to make, he’s such an arrogant piece of shit about it, that you want to dismiss him. And even though it’s not truth, there’s a commonly held perception that Law hates the Phillies, when, in fact, he does not. Even I find myself thinking that from time to time and have to check myself just because of the way he writes.

I dislike him with every fiber of my being, but for wholly different reasons than someone like Eskin or Missanelli. (as an aside, I LOVE it when Mikey Miss attacks someone for the Philly-snowbal-fans-are-the-worst, a la Skip Bayless, bullshit. That was one of the best shows he’s ever had)

"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko

by doubleh on Apr 30, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

bring it

I’d LOVE to go to trial with an impartial Judge with MM as my adversary:

OBJECTION – relevance
OBJECTION – asked and answered
OBJECTION – relevance again
OBJECTION – badgering the witness

My expert witness: Matthew Swartz, Ph.D.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Apr 30, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

haha… there’s also objections for rampant hearsay, failing to lay a proper foundation, and eliciting testimony that’s highly prejudicial and likely to inflame a jury. You could also remind the Court that he’s the jackass who started l’affair lindros… :)

by Boundforbeach on Apr 30, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought that was Craig Carton. Or maybe there was more than one l’affair lindros.

by taco pal on Apr 30, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I sure thought it was Misanelli, but it was a long time ago. I’m talking about the so-called relationship between Joey Merlino and Eric Lindros that WIP whipped up into a frenzy. I remember listening to Eskin interview Merlino on the radio that evening essentially denying that he even knew the guy…

by Boundforbeach on Apr 30, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh right. I had forgotten about that. I believe Carton was the one who reported that Lindros had shown up to a game drunk. The Flyers then came thisclose to suing WIP for libel and Carton later shuffled off to North Jersey.

by taco pal on Apr 30, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just for sake of correctness, he went to Colorado for a year first.

For Who? My teammates.

For What? To Win.

How Much? Where do I sign?

by jonk on Apr 30, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought Carton reported that he had been pulled over for DUI

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by JasonB on Apr 30, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to his Wiki page:

On February 28, 1997, Carton reported Philadelphia Flyers captain Eric Lindros had missed a game against the Pittsburgh Penguins on February 15 due to being hung over. Claiming the excuse the Flyers gave (a sore back) for Lindros missing the game was a cover-up. The Flyers immediately sued WIP, resulting in an out of court settlement.

Somebody edited the page to say that years later, Clarke and Snider admitted that the report had been right. I find that highly dubious. There’s no citation for that claim, whereas there is a citation for the part I quoted above. Also, whoever made that edit misspelled Snider’s name.

Here’s another interesting tidbit from Wiki, by the way, about his post-WIP years.

In 2005, Carton became embroiled with an on the air feud with the then-(Acting) Governor of New Jersey, Richard Codey. Carton made comments about Codey’s wife Mary-Jo’s battle with postpartum depression prompting Codey himself to confront Carton in the studio. Carton would say “What Governor Codey ought to do is approve the use of medical marijuana so women can have a joint and relax instead of putting their babies in a microwave. Then all they want to do is cook Doritos. Women who claim they suffer from this postpartum depression … they must be crazy in the first place.” Codey would go back to respond: “I wish I weren’t governor, I’d take you out”, but did not say he would challenge Carton to a fight.

What a guy.

by taco pal on Apr 30, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

[CITATION NEEDED]

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Apr 30, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, exactly. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Carton himself who made the edit.

Now that I think of it, I wonder if Carton was the sleaziest, scummiest person ever to work at WIP. Seriously. I think he’s worse than either Cataldi or Eskin.

by taco pal on Apr 30, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

How many married woman did Carton get killed while subtley being a racist fuck and fueling the hatred that simmers in race relations in Philadlephia?

I still go with eskin as a bigger douchebag – cause at least carton seemed honest about it

by jemagee on Apr 30, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Carton strikes me as being a racist too.

by taco pal on May 1, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hold up, Skinny Joey and Eric Lindros were pals? No shit!

by FuquaManuel on Apr 30, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ugh, want to comment, really shouldn’t, sigh….

by jemagee on Apr 30, 2010 10:08 PM EDT reply actions  

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