Some Phillies Links for You, May 12, 2010: Two Cold Scoops, Spygate?, Extra Home Games
by WholeCamels on May 12, 2010 8:37 AM EDT
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PrintLidge’s words, actions leave elbow a mystery to Phillies
At least he's being open and honest about it this season.
Phillies-Rockies doubleheader preview
Roy Halladay needs to go deep, save the bullpen.
Extra home games for Phillies upset New York Mets outfielder Jeff Francoeur, Ike Davis takes a dive
"That's just bull----," Francoeur said. "That's not really fair. That's just not fair." The move will give the Phillies 84 home games this season, and for a team that plays well at home, perhaps an unfair advantage over the Mets and others in the NL East. "It's ridiculous," Francoeur said. Absolutely crazy."
Although I agree with Jeff Francoeur on principle, his foot-stomping about the whole thing, and the fact that it's Jeff Francoeur, makes me laff.
Phillies get warning from MLB - MLB News - FOX Sports on MSN
Maybe someone can explain what the man in the cowboy hat is saying. What good does it do to "spy" on the opposing catcher if you can't somehow instantaneously relay information on pitch type/location to the current batter? And I'm sure the Rockies don't have an intricate system of lights and stuff in the opposing bullpen that would allow that to happen.
Phillies Notes: Rollins doing well in Florida
Might be back for the next homestand. Fantastic news, if true.
Phillies' Moyer, wife reach out to grieving youngsters with Camp Erin
Proud to have Jamie Moyer on this team; he and his wife are quality human beings. Look at it this way: if he's not earning his contract, at least the money is being put to good use.
Another Positive game for Mariners winning 5-1
Cliff Lee finally wins a game for Seattle.
De$perate Dykstra - NYPOST.com
Mets legend Lenny Dykstra to start turning tricks soon.
Kyle Lohse Needs To Be Tougher Than His Luck | Bleacher Report
This type of hard-hitting analysis is why Bleacher Report is so essential.
Hyatt strikes out career-high 14 | MiLB.com News
He's old for his level, fringy stuff, etc. etc., but Austin Hyatt is flat-out dealing for the Threshers right now. Promote to Reading soon?
Mets 8, Nationals 6: Animal Kingdom - Amazin' Avenue
The Mets came back from a 6-1 deficit to beat the Nats.
Braves Play Complete Game, Win 11-3 - Talking Chop
Despite walking six Brewers, Tim Hudson and the Braves stomped Milwaukee.
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Phillies bring in a bruise specialist...
For those fans of The Onion:
PHILADELPHIA—Phillies manager Charlie Manuel announced Thursday that a bruise specialist from the Johns Hopkins Hospital’s contusion trauma center was brought in to examine a third-degree boo-boo on outfielder Shane Victorino’s thigh. “It’s never easy to say this, but in my professional opinion, Shane is definitely suffering from a light bruise,” said Dr. Anthony Walker, adding that Victorino was being held overnight in a Level 1 bruise unit for observation. “The bruise appears to be about 2 centimeters in diameter and will eventually produce a yellowish discoloration, which means it’s healing. However, judging from Shane’s threshold for pain, it’s going to be a while before he can stand the weight of heavy fabric on his leg again.” Said Victorino, “It hurts, it hurts.”
http://www.theonion.com/articles/phillies-bring-in-bruise-specialist,17399/
I would think shane has a high threshold for pain.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on May 12, 2010 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
i’ve never seen him go face first into any outfield walls…
by PHIGHTINPHILS on May 12, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Frenchy talks entirely too much. He needs to be much more talented to have so many opinions.
P.S. Blame MLB and Bud Selig; don’t blame the Phils.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
In all fairness, Francoeur did not blame the Phillies
I didn’t see the quote where Francoeur blamed the Phillies. He said it was unfair, which it clearly is. It is not fair to say that JF is blaming the Phillies for this, since he isn’t doing that. The admonition in your P.S. seems to be misplaced. I didn’t see any quote where Francoeur blamed the Phillies for this. He’s just generally voicing a justifiable gripe, namely schedule unfairness.
While schedule unfairness always exists to some extent, giving a team 84 home games and 78 away games when other teams have 81 of each is clearly unfair. The home team in baseball, even outside of simply playing better at home for other reasons, gets a strategic advantage by batting last (“play for one” for instance). Having this advantage in 3 extra games and losing the corresponding disadvantage in 3 games is probably worth an extra win during the season.
Francoeur is a big enough target that there’s no need to come up with inaccurate justifications to dislike him.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on May 12, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
It’ll all be moot, cause we know how the Phils do in interleague play. The will win 1 out of 3, just like they would in Toronto.
"My grandmom's favorite grandson, ask my grandmom" --Rone
by layout ultimate on May 12, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I know what you mean, but let’s clarify this.
he’s the new Chipper Jones in that he whines a lot, not in anything baseball-related other than they were teammates once
I mean, I’m no Chipper fan, but even I feel it’s insulting to compare Frenchy to him!
by PhillyFriar on May 12, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, and Zambrano threw a no-hitter
I was thinking they had to move some Astros games to Milwaukee post-Hurricane Katrina/Rita in 2005, but when I checked it was Hurricane Ike in 2008. I think the park was filled with Cubs fans. The Astros had been a threat to overtake the Brewers for the wild card lead when the hurricane struck, so it might have helped the Phillies chances that the Astros didn’t make the playoffs that year.
by phillyinportland on May 15, 2010 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure I’m in such a hurry to bring back Rollins. Sure Valdez is right now the DP king, but you don’t rush things like a strained calf. Especially since it was worse than previously thought.
Get well soon Jimmy!
El Camino! El El Camino!
The front is like a car, the back is like a truck!
The front is where you drive, the back is where you
El Camino! El El Camino!
Of course it’s all predicated on him being as close to 100% as possible. They’re doing pretty well without him, but wow is he better than the Castro/Valdez alternatives.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on May 12, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Was (somewhat unadvisedly) listening to sports radio this morning, and they honed right in on the sign stealing controversy. The suggestion was that the runner at second signaled an inside or outside pitch by leading with his left or right foot. Still, somewhat inexact.
Anyway, practicality aside, I have to admit to being a bit nonplussed by the whole issue. I mean, and this is an honest question, is it an actual, tangible cheat of an offense, or is it cause for saber (sabr?) rattling amongst the Mets and Rockies crews after getting a bit shellacked. My inner-Phillies fan says that stolen signs certainly don’t account for the lackluster offense the team trots out every so often, but I have this nagging tug of (projected) guilt about the whole thing.
The article is maybe a little troubling – of course it’s all spin – but they make it sound semi-incriminating. Why else would Mick Billmeyer be using binoculars during the offensive half of the inning?
That said, the evidence is pretty thin. And of course it begs the question – why not just steal signs a more conventional way…
Overall, I don’t really understand why it needs to be a press release. If there were conclusive evidence of cheating, there would be a penalty and then it is news. Otherwise, I just see it as the league office giving legitimacy to whining.
Is there even any evidence that stealing signs gives you a significant advantage? Especially of the inside-outside variety… general location like that should be a pretty obvious fact to a MLB hitter, otherwise they won’t be long for the league. Also, with how frequently pitchers miss their spots, I’d guess prior knowledge of where they intend on throwing the pitch might even hurt in some scenarios.
A whole lot of posturing. I hope this is where it ends.
Let’s assume the Phils were stealing the signs and calling them in to Vic. He would then need to send a signal into a base coach or runner who would then need to relay the sign to the hitter. All this would need to be completed in under a second and would require the hitter looking away from the pitcher mid-windup to see the sign relay (not a very advisable time to distract one self). Even if the sign was sent in directly from the bulpen it would need to be large and obvious enough for the hitter to see in his peripheral vision, so as to not look away from the pitcher’s windup. That would also make it obvious enough for everyone in the stadium (including the ump calling balls and strikes) to clearly see it.
I’m not even going to touch the obvious problem that sometimes pitchers are surprised by what they threw.
All of this, to me adds up to this being a non-issue. Victorino getting the calls by phone to help him in his upcoming at bat? You don’t need to steals signs for that. I’m an idiot watching at home and after the pitch I can tell you what was thrown and where it was located and whether it was accurate. That’s like finding out which boxer the fix is in on, so that you can use it to bet on a future fight.
I’d think it was far more likely that if they were trying to spot anything, it would be tells, not signs. Does the pitcher scuff his foot before throwing a curve, or angle his arm during the windup a particular way for a fastball, that sort of thing. Signs are different on every pitch, but if a pitcher has an unconscious tell, it’s probably fairly consistent.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
That’s probably right. And in that case, I see zero problem with it. How is that any different from what scouts do as they’re sitting in the stands? Scouts use binoculars too.
This is a pretty idiotic controversy, but I don’t think it will end anytime soon. Check out the execrable Duk’s take on it in the Yahoo blog linked on the sidebar (in his typical brand of smarmy, passive-aggressive “say it without saying it” “just puttin’ it out there” style of writing). But he’s not the only writer who’s going to try to feed the controversy in this way.
Agreed. I thought spygate was moronic too, as Belichick could have watched tape and known the defense called, and the pace of the game and timing of signals is far too tight for him to do anything with that data in game anyway.
Especially from the Mets it comes across as sour grapes and disingenuous. A bit of “there’s no way to beat Santana like that unless you were cheating”.
Well, I’ll have to disagree regarding spygate. At the risk of derailing to a football related tangent….
The final walkthrough contains all of the most pertinent information for a game. If you have that information and your opponent doesn’t, you are at a DISTINCT advantage as a football team, especially defensively. Many teams are known to run as many as 15 plays “scripted” for their first few offensive plays of the game. These plays have a remarkably lower chance for success if the defense can “script” against them. And how about if the defense knows the audibles for the most commonly used plays? Or how the routes have changed slightly on the most successful playaction passes since the last game in order to keep the defense guessing? In football there is communication with the sideline and the guy who’s supposed to have the most information between every play. If he has a detailed description of exactly what the opposition wants to do, this obviously gives him an advantage.
The analogy would be the manager in baseball knowing precisely what a pitcher will do in certain circumstances and relaying a “swing, middle in breaking pitch” or “lay off, down and away slider” sign to his batter. And attaining that through video evidence when the other team didn’t think they were being watched. Effing New England.
Sorry, I obviously have unresolved Super Bowl 39 issues.
I agree that this way of using the information would be impossible. About 8 layers too many of complexity.
I’d think it is more likely that the accusation was the Billmeyer stole signs from his vantage point in the bullpen, relayed them to the dugout, then they were used as the opportunity came up (i.e. runner on second). That’s really the only way stolen signs are ever used, as far as I know – the pitch sign occurs immediately before delivery, so any other way of doing it other than looking at a baserunner would be nearly impossible.
He’s been quoted as saying that “The over-analysis of the media vis-a-vis relatively trivial and overly moralistic guidelines in sport may be crossing the line. Frankly, I don’t like what the Phillies have — allegedly — done, but I believe they are a good ballclub either way, so why drag this out?”
Oh…wait, no, I misread it. He actually said “Bullshit! Totally freaking unfair! Man!”
by Trev223 on May 12, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
As a side point, Joe Mauer was seen stealing signs last year when he was on second base. This sort of stuff happens, and I tend to think it’s mostly a manufactured controversy; I agree with Trev that I’m nonplussed by the whole thing.
by PhillyFriar on May 12, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
As a former catcher, I don’t really have that much of a problem with a player on second stealing signs. It’s the catcher’s responsibility to guard his signs (as best he can), and, if he thinks someone has stolen the signs, talk to the pitcher and switch them. If you only have one set of signs, you’re not planning ahead. Is calling signs from second “dishonorable”? To most guys, yeah, probably. Is it “cheating”? In my book, no.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I wouldn’t consider picking signs from second dishonorable. If a catcher allows them to be picked, they should be picked, IMO.
by P. Incaviglia on May 12, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree. I think it’s sort of like trying to pick up a QB’s cadence if you’re a defensive lineman. It’s a perfectly normal part of the game.
I have sort of a middling view of Spygate. I think it was somewhat overblown, but I don’t think it’s moronic either. There aren’t clear-cut lines that be drawn between what’s appropriate and what’s inappropriate. But let’s put it this way. If a baseball team put a bug in the visiting dugout, that would be cheating. Spygate was a lot closer to that than it was to “stealing signs,” with or without binoculars. I don’t think the use of technology, in and of itself, is the crucial factor though.
My spygate reference was only meant to go with the stealing of signals from the DC and OC, to me, that is almost directly equivalent to stealing signs from the catcher. Taping walkthroughs would be cheating and give a big advantage, plain and simple.
That’s where I fall out on spygate, too. How do you guys feel about a batter turning his head to pick signs from a catcher, a la ARod a few years ago? To me, that’s dishonorable, but I’m not sure if I’d consider it cheating.
by P. Incaviglia on May 12, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Where does it say Hyatt has fringy stuff? The only report I’ve read is PF’s, and he’s said multiple times that he’s heard the opposite.
Anyway, I’d promote him at the minor league all-star break.
The “fringy” designation comes from Kevin Goldstein, although to be fair he was referring to Hyatt as “fringy” in total, not necessarily his stuff.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on May 12, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Goldstein was also the one who said he was throwing 94 last year.
I don’t dislike “fringy” as much as I dislike the “T” word, but it’s a pretty vague term. If all Goldstein was saying is that we have to withhold our excitement for now because he’s old for his level, that’s fine, we all know that. But if there’s any more substance to his critique than that, I can’t figure out what it might be.
There’s definitely natural skepticism about four-year college guys; and you’re right, I think Goldstein is primarily saying that we shouldn’t crap our pants over a 23 year old dominating 21 year olds. He did, of course, note the 94 MPH thing, and said that Hyatt is more than just an organizational arm. Just not anointing him the Second Coming yet.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on May 12, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, he was drafted in the 15th round, and a college senior nonetheless, so I think his stuff kinda has to be fringy.
But since he’s 24, they should definitely promote him, and see if he’s at least a usable middle reliever, if not something more.
That is a fair presumption, but a poor conclusion, considering that it’s sight unseen for all of us. Sometimes in baseball, s**t happens. Presumptions are things that you assume when you don’t have access to any evidence, not things that you hold fast to as an excuse to not even look for evidence. Nothing “has to be” true. Skepticism is fine, but dismissiveness is not.
Goldstein on Hyatt this morning
Hyatt is a difficult pitcher to wrap one’s head around. There are all sorts of negatives here. A 15th-round pick last year as a college senior, Hyatt is in his first full season, and he already turns 24 in two weeks. Then there’s the stuff, as his fastball and slider rate as no more than average, while his changeup might be a tick above. So we have an advanced, polished strike thrower with no projection, but at the same time, he’s totally dominating, limiting Florida State League batters to a .181 batting average while striking out 53 in 42 2/3 innings. As a 15th-round pick, if he even gets to the big leagues, that’s quite an accomplishment, but some scouts are coming around and seeing Hyatt as having big league bullpen possibilities.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on May 12, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe there’s no movement? Or the 94 MPH report was erroneous?
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on May 12, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I love that Matt signal.
I commented underneath with an inquiry about Hyatt’s velocity, and I’ll keep checking back to see if KG responds. I’d be surprised if he were still touching 94 out of the rotation — though it would certainly be a pleasant surprise — but there’s a big difference between sitting 88 and sitting 91, especially for a righthander.
I agree that the use of “fringy” as a whole package sort of deal can be a bit vague, and I’m assuming KG uses it as an indication of the non-plus stuff and age discrepancy.
I’ll say one thing, though: not to question KG, but I’ve got to thing something about Hyatt has to be plus, even if it’s “just” his command and/or control.
another interesting link
http://www.nesn.com/2010/05/could-phillies-outfielder-jayson-werth-be-bostonbound-in-2011.html
Even though I think the Phillies should probably let Werth walk, I can’t help but feeling a bit of a “hands off our man!” reaction to this.
2B
Chase Utley “arguably” the best second baseman in MLB?
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on May 12, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
In fact, I know there are Yankees fans who think Cano is as good as or better than Utley. Maybe Red Sox fans feel the same way about Pedroia.
(Cano, admittedly, did begin his career at a younger age than Utley and is off to an awesome start this year, but Utley’s still better.)
“This is the first time I’ve been in a situation like that, where you’re dealing with a long-term deal and extensions and all that,” he added. “This is the first time I’ve had an opportunity at that…”
Translation… It’s time to get PAID
by Boundforbeach on May 12, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Tough being a Red Sox fan ...
When you’re convinced that the Yankees are going to sign Jayson Werth, Carl Crawford, and Cliff Lee at the end of this season.
Of course, two years ago it was CC Sabathia, AJ Burnett and Mark Teixeira, so maybe they have a point.
by phillyinportland on May 15, 2010 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Is there anybody in baseball that you’d rather have starting the first game of a twin bill more than Roy Halladay? I say no.
Yankees fan here:
It sucks that this idiot complains like the Phillies were the ones making the decisions. It always sucks to see people put the blame that Selig deserves, onto a franchise.
It was a lose-lose, if somebody were to get hurt, people are asking “why did they play in that”? The Jays are gonna have to look at the safer, less damaging alternative and cut their loses, I’m sure its not hurting their postseason chances.
One more thing: Fuck the Mets, keep killing them.
New Yorker looking for sports talk and debate!
by Gelatin on May 12, 2010 11:15 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Well, we agree on the Mets, at least. I also happen to agree on everything else you said. The G20 was announced as being in Toronto on December 9th. It’s hardly Philly’s fault that Bud dragged his ass for 6 months on determining a solution.
Exactly.
I don’t understand how hard it is for people to realize that Bud Selig is the “mastermind” behind this. To complain as if its the Phillies/Jays fault is absurd.
The biggest complaint I’d have would be if I were a Jays ticket holder who couldn’t get a refund. Not that there are many of those lurking around.
New Yorker looking for sports talk and debate!
by Gelatin on May 12, 2010 12:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Over on Bluebird Banter I read one Jays fan complaining because he lives out of town and bought tickets specifically to that series in the hopes of seeing Halladay. Now he’ll have no game tickets and a flight to Toronto with no series (he may have tickets to another game on either side of the series, no idea). I’d be pissed if I was that guy, unless Bud refunds his airfare.
The Jays fans there seem to have a good handle on it
There’s a bit of griping about their management, but Beeston appears to be intent on digging himself a bigger hole than is really necessary. Can’t really blame them there.
But yeah, they know it’s Selig’s doing.
and for a team that plays well at home
Huh? They have the same record home and road this year. Last year they were three games better on the road than at home.
Even if you confine it to just interleague games, last year they were 5-4 in AL parks and 1-8 interleague at home. The year before, they were 2-4 in AL parks and 2-7 at home.
I dunno, I’m happy to have the extra home games because it can’t hurt, but specifically complaining that this team plays so well at home seems, well, unsupported.
thanks
I was going to say the same thing, but didn’t have the splits to back it up.
by Philibuster on May 12, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
D-Brown...
…hit another home run yesterday as well, giving him 6 on the season. He also walked twice and stole a base. Nice!
(Dom Brown, btw, was drafted in the 20th round)
And while Vance Worley isn’t lighting the world on fire, he had a good line last night which made me look at his season stats. His last five starts (after his previous first two— and bad— ones) might offer a little encouragement:
29.1 IP, 29 H, 11 ER, 1 HR, 11 BB, 28 K; 3.38 ERA
I know this is his second season at Reading and he’s not exactly dominating, but this seems to be an improvement on last season and, if memory serves, that’s a much better K/rate that what Worley put up in 2009.
Speaking of prolific young hitters, I hope to be seeing Mike Stanton this friday. Dude is putting up Ryan Howard like power number so far in Double A this year (a rather ridiculous 15 HRs in 29 games, nearly half of hits are homers). I wish he was ours, he’s by all accounts a really nice guy too. This division could be a headache in 2 or 3 years with Heyward, Stanton, Strasburg, Hanson, etc.
Looks like Aumont got smacked around for his third straight start. On the other hand, he struck out 8 in 4.2, so maybe it was bad luck today.
If his strikeouts stay up, I’m willing to chalk the rest up to problems with reintegrating to the starter’s role. I’ll stay an Aumont backer until the writing’s clearly on the wall, for sure.
great
I am watching the game on mlb network. Now I have to listen to the Colorado announcers chirp about the Phillies possibly stealing signs. Oh joy!
Lohse
Pitching in the majors is all about the mental approach and toughness.
The problem with blogging about baseball is that someone is always out there doing it better for free.
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