Has soccer "arrived" in the US to the possible detriment of baseball?
As I write, the US soccer team is receiving a royalty check from D.P. Leitch for exponentially increasing sales of Sunshine Superman. This caused one of my europhile friends to posit that "soccer is now established as a major sport in the US and will soon pass baseball in popularity". After I got done wiping the remains of a wasted beer off of my shirt, I went to work explaining to him why, in the U.S., soccer will always be adored...by fans of flying cars, Esperanto, and the metric system. I'll go out on a limb today and say, "Yes, Virginia, baseball will always be more popular than soccer. In the US, anyway." Here's why:
Let's get the first thing out of the way. I like soccer. I just played soccer this weekend in a pick-up game at a local park with some parents and kids. My son plays. He likes soccer. We have watched non-US soccer together on tv and we enjoyed it. I am not some meathead yahoo who thinks soccer is an international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. No...I am just a plain-old meathead yahoo.
This article is not about a qualitative comparison of the game of soccer and the game of baseball. It is only about why I think soccer will not pass MLB in popularity in anything like a generation, at least. Whether you or I prefer one or the other is irrelevant. The issue posed to me was that the popularity of soccer was poised to surpass that baseball in the US among sports fans. That is a facially ridiculous assertion for the reasons explained below.
There are a couple of ways to try to figure out "popularity" of a sport. Attendance is one way. League revenues are another. There are certainly others. I'm using these two, since I think they are fair. They are measurable. Feel free to suggest other methodologies below in the comments. Clearly, I am not omniscient.
I also start from the obvious point that MLB is more popular in the US than, say, MLS or the Premier League. I think that is fairly safe territory for the time being. Still, the issue needs to be visited to show the magnitude of the gulf that MLS, for instance, would have to cross to surpass MLB. A review of major sports leagues attendance and revenues are in order, then.
ATTENDANCE:
MLB Baseball was watched, in person, by roughly 73,400,000 people in the U.S. in the most-recent full year [1]. The average crowd per game was 30,388.
The top soccer leagues in attendance were (total attendance/per game attendance):
- The Premier League: 13,500,00 -- 35,600
- Bundesliga: 13,000,000 -- 42,600
- La Liga: 11,100,000 -- 29,100
- Football League Championship: 9,900,000 -- 17,900
- Serie A: 9,600,000 -- 25,300
In these 5 leagues, 1,998 games were played before about 57,100,000 fans, or 28,579 per game. In countries where soccer is established and where it is the dominant sport, it can, therefore, attain Major Sport Status, or MSS [2] in the US. Can it do so in the US? That is far from clear.
Even if soccer does generate large crowds, the absolute number of fans is unlikely to ever reach MLB's level because soccer matches cannot be played 5, 6, or 7 days each week for 162 game schedules. It seems unlikely that MLS could ever pass MLB in raw numbers of fans at games. Soccer in Europe fairly clearly shows that there is a limit to the number of games that can be played as well as the number of people who can go. An elite league in the US could never have enough teams and games to pass MLB in raw attendance so long as MLB does not fall off the map for some reason.
This segues nicely to the next segment. The NFL cannot pass MLB in attendance, yet it is pretty much unquestionably more popular in the US than baseball. Revenue numbers support this. Perhaps soccer could pull off something similar?
REVENUES:
The big five soccer leagues in Europe just exceeded EUR5,000,000,000.00 in revenues in 2010 for the first time [3].
The NFL's TV contracts alone for 2010 alone are worth nearly $4,000,000,000.00, which ignores merchandising, licensing (video games), ticket sales, radio contracts, seat licenses, and concessions. The percentage of revenues to go to the players in the NFL under the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) in 2009 is 57.5% The per team cap in 2009 was about $127,000,000.00 for each of the 32 teams. That means that revenues were likely about $7,000,000,000.00 for the NFL (32 teams times $127,000,000.00 divided by 57.5% = $7,067,826.086.96).
MLB generated $6,100,000,000.00 in 2008 [4], though other versions put that at $6.5 in 2008 and $6.6 in 2009 [5].
MLS revenues were not easy for me to find, but they appear to be in the low hundreds of millions. Perhaps $165,000,000.00 as of 2008, for instance. That's less than the Yankee's payroll. MLS is 50 games down at the All-Star break, by that standard, and that's generous.
All of this..erm...revenue measuring does not really explain whether soccer can, in the US, surpass MLB in popularity. Revenue does not equal popularity, of course, but it is a reasonable proxy in a world of discretionary spending. We're not talking about food, shelter, clothing and taxes, here. These are areas where fans "vote" with their wallets for a product.
WHY MLB WILL RETAIN ITS LEAD OVER SOCCER IN THE US IN THE FUTURE:
The MLB has several advantages over soccer. This is primarily about the "first-mover" advantage. Baseball is already a big part of the sports scene. There are myriad minor leagues, affiliated and unaffiliated. There is townball. Little League. High school and college baseball. You have Field of Dreams, Pride of the Yankees, The Natural [6], Major League, Bull Durham, and the Bad News Bears.
You also have an enormous number of successful, interesting, special-purpose stadia scattered all over the United States. Camden Yards. Fenway [7]. PNC Park. CBP. Soccer will, if ever, take decades to have comparable purpose-built infrastructure. That will not happen overnight. It will likely require huge amounts of private money or public financing, neither of which will occur until there are significant revenue streams flowing into MLS.
MLB has built-in fans. Kids grow up with parents who take them to the games. People have grown up with loyalties to their teams. Rivalries exist. While I tire of it, Yankees/Red Sox has meaning to me. Philadelphia Union/D.C. United (after the PU exists for a little bit) has absolutely no meaning to me. History exists and calls to the fan. MLB has great calls. Joe Carter. Bobby Thompson. Bill Mazeroski. Matt Stairs. Just putting the names in order summons powerful memories.
Vin Sculley. Harry Kalas. Ernie Harwell. Harry Carey. Jack Buck. Can you name a soccer announcer?
The above are some obvious examples of the first mover advantage, folks. Soccer has none of it. It can get it, but the goodwill takes time to acquire. To surpass MLB, soccer will need a lot of drama and excitement. 1 - Nil doesn't really move me, but your mileage may vary. 1 - Nil perfect games are ok by me, so maybe someone likes them in soccer, too.
IT CAN BE (AND HAS BEEN) DONE:
The NFL was a relative upstart, compared to MLB. So were the NBA and the NHL (which remain fringe sports, in all fairness to the NFL, MLB, and NCAA football). TV helped football. David Stern helped the NBA. God help the NHL, because nobody else will.
Soccer supporters often push the "demographics" theory. It goes like this: more kids play soccer than baseball, a fast-growing Hispanic demographic in the US likes soccer, baseball fans are older and will die off, etc. Even if true, soccer has an enormous distance to travel to pass MLB. It will take decades, unless all the people over 40 suddenly die off in the next decade. Fans tend to "age out" of sports and, as they get older, gravitate toward baseball as well [8]. Various analysis, such as this, tends to show MLB fans are older and have higher incomes than fans of other sports (the hockey result in the linked article is interesting, though). NASCAR, while once a serious challenger to the NFL/MLB elite sport level, has fallen off badly since 2005.
THE FUTURE:
MLB could stumble badly, but even with steroids, a few rounds of labor strife, competitive imbalances, fractured and idiotic broadcasting policies, MLB is still drawing huge numbers of fans. Nothing puts fannies in the seats like baseball. MLB exceeded the NFL, the NHL, and the NBA (numbers 2, 3, and 4 in the world in attendance). If you include the Premier League, it takes the 4 biggest non-baseball leagues in the world's top ten to surpass MLB.
Money has already been discussed, but to recapitulate, the top 5 best soccer leagues in the world in soccer-mad countries do not generate as much revenue combined as MLB generates. MLB and the NFL are far and away the most significant sports leagues in the world when it comes to dollars. Combined with the huge numbers of people going to MLB games, it seems unlikely that MLS (which appears to be the most-likely candidate for such a thing) will surpass MLB in attendance or revenues in our lifetimes.
CONCLUSION:
I didn't really get to talk about Esperanto, flying cars, the metric system, or other things (see: "prosperity") that are just around the corner, but soccer as a major sport in the US is still firmly in that camp, and will be for some time. Sorry, soccer fans. It's a nice sport, just not a popular one. That's not a bad thing, either.
[1] The figure is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues. It does include figures for the Pirates and the Orioles, and is therefore subject to downward revision.
[2] "Major Sport Status" is, to paraphrase Potter Stewart, something that I know when I see it.
[3] http://www.arabianbusiness.com/589991-epl-tops-global-league-for-revenues---deloitte
[4] http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080401&content_id=2479371&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
[6] Except in Philadelphia where he was finally DFA-ed. Or /DFA'd. Or something. Thank god for whatever it was, anyway: http://www.thegoodphight.com/2010/6/22/1530682/rollins-off-dl-ruiz-on-dl-dobbs
[7] The list of superlatives did not include "well-designed", so Fenway can be included in the "successful" and "interesting" categories. "Interesting" is a fair term for a place with a $100.00 seat with a near fully-obstructed view.
[8] Wish I could find my link for this. I hate "I assert, therefore it is true." Maybe someone friendly can bail me out here.
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“Ridiculous amount of work” =! good work (I didn’t take your comment that way —just saying), but thank you. I read lots of great stuff on here, and hope only that I do not embarrass myself with my contributions. There are bits that I like, such as the Orioles/Fenway/Dobbs items. Plus, any time you can work in Esperanto, it’s a win. If only I could have footnoted in Esperanto…
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 23, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate it when people use soccer as a vehicle for their cultural resentments. Whether it’s the Glenn Becks of the world on one hand, or the Europhiles on the other. Obviously I’d rather have a beer (or a merlot, I suppose) with the Europhiles, but on this particular issue they’re all equally annoying. Soccer is a fine sport, but (1) this is all just a matter of personal taste, and (2) it takes diff’rent strokes to move the world.
“it takes diff’rent strokes to move the world.”
I like to think of Gary Coleman’s life and death as being fundamentally messianic.
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by RememberthePhitans on Jun 23, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
And the US sports landscape already has
The NFL
College Football
College Basketball
MLB
NHL
Nascar (more popular in terms of attendance than most of the sports above it)
It’s a fracturing landscape where a new sports league just tends to bite (small bits) in to existing fan ness
MLS hasn’t exactly stormed the US in popularity has it?
by jemagee on Jun 23, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Attendance for the major sports in most recent season:
NFL: 67,498
NCAA football: 46,281
MLB: 30,338
NBA: 17,248
NHL: 17,072
MLS: 16,472 (through 93 games – 10% increase over 2009)
The only international sports league I know of to exceed NCAA football is the Indian Premier League (cricket), which averaged about 58,000 in attendance. NASCAR averages more per event than any other sport in attendance, but with only one event per week, their total attendance is somewhere in the middle. It’s also been rapidly declining, about 10% lower than last year.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
so MLS is last, but its growth in the last 10 years is pretty impressive.
by Wet Luzinski on Jun 24, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Be interested to see how it was in 2006 – does MLS see an attendance spike in world cup years?
by jemagee on Jun 24, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
1996 17,306
1997 14,536
1998 14,231
1999 14,333
2000 13,619
2001 14,941
2002 15,653
2003 14,882
2004 15,581
2005 14,978
2006 15,354
2007 16,629
2008 16,310
2009 16,120
Honor is no substitute for victory.
It might be more conclusive if we were to see the attendance level by year for original MLS teams only. New franchises are likely to skew the attendance in the year they are introduced.
“Americans will never embrace soccer.” – Homer J. Simpson
Unfortunately, I don’t have a team-by-team breakdown prior to 2008. The numbers do put MLS as the 9th most attended top-tier league in the world, behind Bundesliga 1 (GER), Premier League (ENG), La Liga (SPA), Ligue 1 (FRA), Serie A (ITA), Nihon Sakka Rigu (JAP), Eredivisie (NED), and Primera A (ARG).
And no, I didn’t realize the Japanese were soccer fanatics either.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Japan
It’s the #2 sport behind baseball, but it’s still popular there. Japan is a very large country so it wouldn’t have to be the #1 sport in order for it to place on the world rankings.
I’m surprised that France ranks above Italy though.
Italy has a crapton of leagues
Professionally, there’s Serie A and Serie B, Lega Prima A, Lega Prima B, Lega Seconda A, Lega Seconda B, and Lega Seconda C. France only has Ligue 1 and Ligue 2 at the pro level. If you counted all of the professional leagues, Italy would almost certainly be higher, but this was only looking at the top league in each country, so Serie A compared to Ligue 1.
I was also surprised Eredivisie was up there. Not because of popularity, but because I didn’t think the Netherlands had a large enough population to generate a huge league.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
people don’t care about soccer. Every world cup it’s shoved down our throats till we watch it or turn off sports center. Think about it if team USA got knocked out of the world cup in the final match would you care after 2 days? I don’t think I would however the Eagles SB loss in 04 and the Phillz WS loss in 09 still sting like it happend yesterday.
by sowhatifitisasportste on Jun 23, 2010 6:07 PM EDT reply actions
And 1993. And 1983. I still vividly recall the final plays of both of those WS losses. Oddly, I cannot tell you how the last out of the 2009 WS occurred.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 23, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember both the 1993 and 2009 losses as if they were yesterday… Victorino grounded out.
by dannijd on Jun 24, 2010 11:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I left out 1915. I’m still bitter over that one.
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by RememberthePhitans on Jun 25, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s just not true. The world cup got better ratings than the start of the NBA finals. ESPN is getting great ratings for it’s EPL games. MLS attendance and viewership goes up every year.
Just because you don’t care, doesn’t mean everyone else doesn’t.
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by JasonB on Jun 23, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
FWIW, the NBA is a fringe sport, too.
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by RememberthePhitans on Jun 23, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember when soccer ‘arrived’ after the world cup was in the United States and it was very well attended?
To me – soccer has as much chance as supplanting baseball as hockey has of supplanting football…not because of popularity but because of the culture of the United States, the numerous options, and the pace and scoring level of the games.
This is a process story that seems to get written every four years if the US does ‘moderately well’ in the world cup…when the US loses this weekend in the knockout round, the ratings will go down accordingly.
Soccer is the out door equivalent of hockey with a lot less fighting, and much slower moving, a low scoring sport that (unlike baseball at time) the bulk of American just don’t enjoy watching on tv…the MLS may continue to exist and ‘thrive’ as it were – but to suggest it would surpass baseball in popularity in the US always baffles me.
I enjoy playing soccer, i loved playing it as a kid, was a pretty good goalie, i loved playing hockey (street) as well (goalie as well) but they’re boring as hell to watch on television, and we don’t have the ‘city pride’ thing going like soccer leagues do in other nations.
The American Sports landscape is pretty fractured as it is, soccer will have it’s niche, but it won’t surpass baseball, any more than Soccer fever made it super popular after the wolrd cup was in the US
by jemagee on Jun 23, 2010 6:32 PM EDT reply actions
Hey – since we’re talking about niche sports – anyone know how that record setting 5th set in england turned out?
by jemagee on Jun 23, 2010 6:37 PM EDT reply actions
Penalty kicks.
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by RememberthePhitans on Jun 23, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I always loved that about wimbledon and wondered why other grand slams didn’t do that for the 5th set (maybe the french does but i’m not sure?)….i like little idiosyncratic things like that
by jemagee on Jun 23, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The French does. I’d always thought the US Open was the only one that didn’t, but I’m actually not sure about the Australian.
What’s also amusing is that the guy who will play the winner won his match with a 16-14 final set. Which would normally seem pretty ridiculous in its own right, except…
They don’t usually ahve a lot of rest in the early matches do they – like a day – those guys are going to be beat whomeever wins.
I remember the first time i watched some volleyball on tv and realized that they changed the scoring to make it more ‘exciting’ i guess so there is a point on every serve – i didn’t like the change because it took something away from the game – most of the sporst i liked playing as a kid were the niche sports :)
by jemagee on Jun 23, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
There are differences (call it hate if yo uwant) between the cultures of the US and the cultures were soccer dominates…
Mexico still has siestas
I deal with vendors in Italy (and spain) that i can not talk to in august because the country takes a vacation
Did you know in Italy clothes can’t be on sale except when the government allows it (I learned this from my boss when she went to italy – got me a nice leather wallet)
There’s also this kind of ‘civic pride’ attached to futbol (at least to my perception in England) that I don’t thik carries over to the US…we move around a lot more, have a lot more options and a just different way of things getting done.
If anyone takes this as insulting soccer nations, it’s not my intent, hell i’d LOVE to be able to take the month of august off every year…but I believe those inherent national differences will always cause soccer to stay in the niche part the way it isn’t in europe.
I wonder if European nations write about how basketball might surpass futbol sometday?
by jemagee on Jun 23, 2010 6:40 PM EDT reply actions
No…they’re wondering how Real Madrid can afford Cliff Lee.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 23, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Mexico and Italy have some cultural similarities. But what about Japan? (Baseball is the #1 sport there, but soccer is still very popular.) Or Switzerland? Or Scotland? All of those cultures are notorious for their industriousness and yet they love soccer too.
They don’t even play pro soccer during those summer months anyway, so I don’t really see how the industriousness plays any part in why someone likes soccer.
It’s just the game they grew up playing in Europe and South America.
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That doesn’t hold water, as they often run the news story about the popularity of ‘youth soccer’ in the US until yo uget to about high school (except on the main line where soccer and lacrosse were more important than football and basketball in high school) – youth soccer is one of the most played sports, boys and girls, in the US
by jemagee on Jun 23, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Well the rise of youth soccer has certainly coincided with the rise in popularity of the pro and national game here.
Either way, it’s not really a deniable point. It’s the game they’ve played as kids for generations. Same as baseball here.
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According to the US Youth Soccer program:
1974: 100,000
early 1990s: 1,000,000
2009: 3,200,000
For comparison, Little League Baseball:
1974: 1,640,000
1990: 2,107,590
2009: 2,185,515
Youth Soccer didn’t pass Little League until the late 1990s, which would put those players between high school and young professional age now.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Soocer did arrive in 1994
It has continued to grow since then. I’ll leave the debate over whether soccer will “surpass” some other sport to someone else… But it’s not deniable that since that World Cup that soccer has continued to grow steadily in the United States. Since then there’s a healthy and expanding domestic league. Two full time soccer tv networks. ESPN began showing EPL and La Liga games and getting good ratings. Almost 3x as many people attended the US send off series matched this year than they did before the last world cup. More kids play youth soccer than any other sport…
Oh and a for “city pride”… The Philadelphia Union already sold out their season tickets. That’s real growth.
I’m not sure if the only measure of growth or success is if it completely took over the sports landscape… but soccer did arrive in the US.
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Attendence figures
It’s weird to compare attendance figures of soccer teams in England and baseball teams in the US. For one, there’s almost twice as many baseball teams in MLB as there are in the EPL. The stadiums in America are much bigger and obviously there’s many times more people here.
Plus, there’s what? 5 times as many games in an MLB season?
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For me, I’d look at a few other factors for a sport to attain “major” team sport status.
Is there a profitable domestic league?
Do teams own their own stadiums?
Are those stadiums reasonably full on regular basis?
Does the league have a national TV contract?
Is the sport healthy on a youth level?
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By your criteria, how many “major” sports are there in the US?
Do you know of any references that suggest that MLS is a profitable league? What is “profitable”? Not going broke? Not going broke quickly? Or making more in gross revenues that the top 5 soccer leagues in the world, combined?
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 23, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
This is simply IMO a good barometer for a major sport in this country.
And no, profitable isn’t “making more in gross revenues that the top 5 soccer leagues in the world, combined?”
By my criteria, I think you can say that the traditional 4 team sports are major. Each have money issues of varying degrees, but all are solvent at this point. Baseball has insolvent teams like the Rangers, but most of the league is healthy. Stadium ownership is high in all. All have TV distribution nationally. The NHL is on the fringe of that, but they’ve got a TV deal which is making them enough money to continue to raise their salary cap.
Since you seem interested in MLS… I don’t really know how profitable they are, but I know the leagues’ labor situation and increasing amount of stadium ownership makes it generally financially solvent. What makes them hard to figure out is that the league operates as a single entity. Individuals owners do own the franchises, but MLS owns and pays the players(partially) as a league. I think that’s a major point that needs to change before I’d consider it a major league.
Stadium ownership is rising. Several teams have built their own stadiums, which is a very important thing for the growth of the league. There’s some teams like the New England Revolution who are owned by Bob Kraft and play in Gillette stadium. So, technically it’s owned by the team but not really… I think the Seattle Sounders are in a similar situation, although they draw more fans per week(over 30K) than a typical soccer specific stadium would hold.
The league averages about 15,600 fans per game. Obviously there are teams well over at that and some around 9-10k per. A typical soccer specific stadium in this country seats about 18-22k.
They have a national TV contract with ESPN for a couple games a week. Most teams do have local TV contracts as well.
I think MLS is in a good place at this stage in it’s life. The league is relatively young. But the single entity has to go, stadium ownership needs to continue to increase, and the league could probably stand to expand more. I would not call it a major league just yet.
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Do you know of any references that suggest that MLS is a profitable league? What is "profitable"?
Not all of the teams in MLS are profitable yet. Last year, Seattle, Toronto, Salt Lake, Dallas, San Jose, LA, and Houston were profitable, and New England and Chivas were probably profitable, depending on how the TV revenues were split (they’re not generally reported as team revenues because they’re aggregated and disbursed by Soccer United Marketing). That means about half the 15 teams are individually profitable. With expansions fees, at least 11 of the 15 teams turned a profit last year – those aren’t dependable, though, so it’s more fair to say that somewhere between 7 and 9 turned a repeatable profit.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Look at the total number of games for the top 5 soccer leagues and compare it to MLB. The total number of games is really close. MLB still makes more money. It still pulls in more fans.
And the point here is not whether MLS is surviving or growing. The point is when, if ever, will soccer surpass MLB in the US. Not in Europe. Not in South America. In the US. My answer to that proposition is “effectively, never”. Go ahead and refute it, but please come up with better arguments.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 23, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I recognized the points you make re: in-person attendance. You will note, however, that the top five soccer leagues on the reference provided played a number of combined games that is very close to the total number of MLB games. That dovetails nicely with the revenue issues, since I expected a critique of the post in the vein that you just made. Soccer in the US, by its very nature, cannot ever approach MLB’s attendance unless there are a million teams. That won’t happen. Soccer teams also can’t play 162 games a year. So soccer cannot have more fans at games than MLB. That’s pretty much set in stone.
As to money derived from the league, the NFL beats MLB handily, even though it has far fewer games. It does this by having a compelling product and enormous TV revenues, so a sport can overcome MLB’s first mover advantage — the NFL did it., but it took a long time and a lot of luck Soccer won’t, at least not in our lifetimes. Sorry. Fragmentation of entertainment/leisure activities is one huge barrier to soccer pulling off an NFL-like performance. The NFL did not have to contend with as many other options.
The cake is baked. Soccer will, in the US, always be second/third/fourth fiddle. That doesn’t mean it can’t be entertaining and successful by some standard. Will it be top dog or in the top three? Nope. Not without a massive realignment of the US culture/economy. Anything else is just pie in the sky wishful thinking by deluded soccer fans.
And again….“soccer fan” is not the perjorative here…“deluded” is. Much like my friend who made the foolish statement in the first place.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 23, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
We’re counting the top 5 leagues of one sport across multiple countries in Europe and comparing that to one league in one much larger country? I just don’t see a worthwhile comparison to be made there. Plus, you’re ignoring countries in South America with much larger populations and larger stadiums in your example. The Maracana stadium in Rio, the Estadia Azteca in Mexico City all seat over 100,000. It’s hardly just a European sport.
It really seems like you’re saying that the status quo can never change, but as you already pointed out, the NFL is proof that isn’t true. Now, I doubt in our lifetimes we’ll ever see soccer become a dominant top sport in this country, but it’s steady rise over the past 15-20 years suggests it’s going to continue growing. Especially as our population becomes more hispanic.
My argument isn’t that soccer is going to take over the country… but I just can’t accept this premise that it’s a done deal that our sports landscape will be unchanged forever and always.
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I didn’t make the claim that the sports landscape would remain unchanged. To the contrary, I specifically recognized that the NFL went from upstart to top dog. That’s sort of acknowledging change…
I made the claim soccer would not surpass MLB in the US in popularity (effectively) my lifetime. Sure, soccer can grow. It’ll have to grow its revenue about 33,000% to catch baseball, though. We both recognize MLB will never be unseated as the top in-person draw because of soccer schedule limitations.
So…when do you predict MLS, or a successor US soccer league, will exceed 6.5 billion in annual revenue?
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by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
s/b 3,300%. Sorry about the order of magnitude error. My bad, there.
200,000,000 v. 6,500,000,000, so MLB revenues are 30 times larger. Add the percent on there and it’s 3,000%. Whoops.
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by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, like I said I don’t think it will ever reach that level in our lifetimes. Major league baseball does have a 124 head start after all! That league has taken 141 years to grow the the point it is. MLS has been around for 17 years.
So yeah, obviously it could be a long time.
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Attendence
I found this floating around online. Attendance per game that says it uses the most recent figures.
1. NFL – 67,508 (2009 season)
2. MLB – 30,213 (2009 season)
3. MLS – 18,452 (2010 season, as of 04/11/2010)
4. NBA – 17,110 (2009/10 season)
5. NHL – 17,004 (2009/10 season)
Maybe someone can check these figures for accuracy.
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Those seem right. Now check the revenues, too. Note that I have referred to both the NHL and the NBA as “fringe” sports. Neither of those is in the league of MLB or the NFL.
You might also consider average attendance at Division I NCAA football games as well. I’m not sure where to find NCAA revenues, though I did search a bit in google, to no avail. Total D-I attendance (with 100+ teams over 11-ish games plus bowls) is huuuuuuge (but still nowhere near MLB):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports_attendance_figures
37,000,000 (47,000 per game) for D-I football. 27,000,000 (5,000 per game) for D-1 men’s basketball.
MLS? 3,600,000 for the whole league for 2009.
Per game attendance is only part of the picture. Overall attendance is important, too. Roughly as many people will go to CBP this year to see the Phillies in 81 games than will go to see all the MLS games combined.
Revenues matter. For some perspective, the Yankees come close to starting a lineup (when Sabathia pitches) that makes as much this year as the entire MLS receives in revenue on a yearly basis.
MLS is not even close to passing baseball by any fair metric. It is ridiculously far away from being even discussed in the same breath. That is the point.
Soccer is fine. It may be growing. It will likely receive a World Cup bounce. Is it a worthy candidate to pass baseball in the pantheon of American sport? No.
To extend the question to the area you are walking around in: is soccer a “major sport” in the US right now?
Well:
It has fewer attendees and lower revenues than:
1. NASCAR
2. NCAA Basketball (Men’s D-I)
3. NCAA Football (D-I)
4. NHL
5. NBA
6. MLB
7. NFL
I classify only college football/NFL/MLB as “major sports”, so I don’t think soccer in the US (i.e., the MLS right now) is remotely a “major sport”. It is probably less significant than golf and minor league baseball as well.
Soccer is a nice sport. It is not big, mature, successful, and rich in the US.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Who said “big, mature, successful, and rich in the US?” I thought we were talking about the future?
Again, at least as far as the MLS we’re talking about a 15 year old league. Obviously it can’t be near the levels of these leagues that have been around forever.
And again I don’t get why you’d compare the total attendance of a sport with 162 games to sports with 16 or 30 games.
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I read it… that’s why I’m asking what you’re trying to prove by comparing the total attendance of a sport with 162 games to sports with a fraction of that.
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Sports that draw more fans overall are more significant than sports that draw fewer fans overall. A one-off tractor pull at the Howard County fairgrounds near DC that draws 24,000 people would not be more significant or popular overall than a DCU team that draws 18,000 people a game for 15 home games.
The number of people per game is really inconsequential compared to the much more important number, which is all the fans that come to all the games for a team over a year.
Comparing DCU to the Wizards is ridiculous. Each may draw about 16,000 fans a game, but 41 home games for the Wizards vs. 15 home games for DCU means that three times as many tickets are sold (we’ve ignored ticket prices completely, by the way).
It is a hell of a lot harder to sell 41 * 16,000 tickets than it is to sell 15 * 16,000 tickets. You need a larger fan base. You need many, many more committed people who are willing to plunk down money and take the time to actually go to games.
The per game number may have some meaning, but it is dwarfed in importance by the overall number of tickets sold.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions
JB is using the metric system, and that’s screwing everything up.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Media Coverage plays a big role as well.
It’s a lot easier for the mainstream media outlets to write or talk about “when will soccer arrive?” every four years than to actually cover it every season.
I did not realize the Union had sold out season tickets until JasonB mentioned it above. And here in DC, the United are wildly popular but rarely get the time of day in the sports section or get a brief one play highlight on the news channels, if at all.
by phillies fan in bowie on Jun 23, 2010 8:39 PM EDT reply actions
The media will cover whatever people watch or are interested in. Advertising dollars will penalize the media if the coverage does not interest viewers. With 4,000,000 options out there, viewers will defect in a heartbeat if something important is being missed.
I would be interested in finding out what “wildly popular” means in DC. Are they as popular as the Redskins? Strasburg of Nats-zereth? The Caps?
What is your basis for the assertion “wildly popular”? Do you have some market data from DC/N.VA to share, or is this really just anecdotal evidence gleaned from soccer fans you know and commiserate with in DC?
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 23, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Ouch. That’s down from about 21,000 fans per game in 2007. Any reason for the decline? Stadium issues? I know DCU is trying to build a soccer-only field somewhere.
In any case, the numbers mean that DCU draws fewer fans per home game in the area than (I’m guessing here):
UM football
the Caps
Navy
the Wizards
UM basketball, and
probably George Mason basketball
With only 15 home games, DCU is outdrawn locally for the season by
UM Football (probably close)
the Caps
the Wizards
the Bowie Baysox
the Orioles (since Sheila Dixon was hustling DCU, I think it’s fair to include Baltimore)
the Nats
UM basketball
George Mason’s men’s basketball team (probably close)
I don’t think MLB is worried yet about being passed in DC, not with St. Stephen in town.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Left out the Skins on both lists.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Per game stats are all that really matters. Otherwise it’s apples to oranges.
I think Capitals average around 18k the last two years(around 14 to 15 traditionally), Maryland basketball averages 16k. Wizards average 16k.
I’m not sure if you were joking about George Mason or not because they’re not even close. Around 5k per game.
So of the comparable sports DC United is right there and that’s playing the god awful RFK stadium. For a team that’s only been around 15 years they seem to be doing really well. I actually didn’t realize they were as comparable to these other big sports as they are.
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No. Economic impact matters. There is a huge difference between 81 games of 20,000 fans and 15 games of 20,000 fans.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Economic impact matters to what? How popular a sport is?
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Yup. Fannies and dollars.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions
DCU * 15 home games * 15,000 people = 225,000 home attendance. Basketball is what, 82 games? So, 41 home games * 16,000 = 600,000ish fans.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Again, what’s your point? That sports with more games draw more total fans than sports with fewer? I don’t get what that proves.
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Sports that draw more fans overall are more significant than sports that draw fewer fans overall. A one-off tractor pull at the Howard County fairgrounds near DC that draws 24,000 people would not be more significant or popular overall than a DCU team that draws 18,000 people a game for 15 home games.
The number of people per game is really inconsequential compared to the much more important number, which is all the fans that come to all the games for a team over a year.
Comparing DCU to the Wizards is ridiculous. Each may draw about 16,000 fans a game, but 41 home games for the Wizards vs. 15 home games for DCU means that three times as many tickets are sold (we’ve ignored ticket prices completely, by the way).
It is a hell of a lot harder to sell 41 * 16,000 tickets than it is to sell 15 * 16,000 tickets. You need a larger fan base. You need many, many more committed people who are willing to plunk down money and take the time to actually go to games.
The per game number may have some meaning, but it is dwarfed in importance by the overall number of tickets sold.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions
So by your logic, almost no sport can ever be as significant as baseball because no league plays more than half of the amount of games as baseball does therefore is unlikely to ever draw more total fans?
Is that why the NBA is a fringe sport in your estimation?
Does the NFL only play 16 games because it doesn’t have a large enough fan base or because it’s hard to sell tickets to 80 home games? No, it plays that many games because because that’s what the athletes can handle. It’s not a question of how popular the NFL is.
No soccer team can play 80 to 160 games a year. You can only physically play one, occasionally two soccer games in a week and you can’t do it all year.
How does that make these sports inferior to a game that’s athletic demands allow it to play 162 games?
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And again, you’re still comparing a 120 year old league to a 15 year old league. By any standard, the MLS is still in it’s infancy. In 100 hundred years when the league will have been around as long as baseball is now… who knows how big it will be or if it’ll be around at all. You or I will never know.
It took the NFL about 20 years for it’s total attendance to reach one million for a season. MLS drew over a million in it’s second year. It took baseball 70 years before it drew the amount of people per game that the MLS does now after 15 years. Certainly mass media and modern transportation are factors… but the point is that when you look at MLS in context, it’s growth has been impressive.
Obviously it still has a very long way to go… but I’m not sure any league has grown that fast even given that it’s probably much easier to grow in modern times(although there’s much more competition too)
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I’m sorry I can’t help you understand my two step analysis, JasonB. I apparently cannot reach you the writing and reasoning tools I have. This is a failure on my part alone, and not one f yours. Please do not take it that way.
Thank you for your feedback and your interest. Have a nice day.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 6:39 AM EDT up reply actions
DCU * 15 home games * 15,000 people = 225,000 home attendance. Basketball is what, 82 games? So, 41 home games * 16,000 = 600,000ish fans.
How many of each are repeat attendees? The tickets are OK, but the big money comes from merchandising. As a hypothetical, if the same people show up to every game, and 75% of them buy merchandise, the basketball team’s selling 12,000 jerseys to the soccer team’s 11,250 jerseys. Both the per-game and the overall will skew the numbers, so pretending that either one is all that matters is either naive or intellectually dishonest.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Actually last year(the last full season data) DC United drew 16,000 fans which puts it’s right inline with Maryland basketball and the Wizards. It looks like attendance has fallen off since 06 to 07 when they were drawing 20k per game and regularly placing first in the conference. The team hasn’t done well the past few years and attendance has dropped off. Pretty much par for the course of most teams.
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I detest soccer so I applaud your careful reasoning
But you Americans ought to try the metric system. Its convenient and it won’t make soccer more popular.
Well written piece...
but one of the few flaws I see overall (not necessarily your fault) is that many people like to say that soccer is played by the most people, so therefore it must be the most popular sport. A huge flaw in this argument that no one ever wants to point out, is that it is by far the cheapest out of any of the “Major Sports” listed and the least dangerous from a parents perspective as kids are more likely to be injured in Hockey, Football, Baseball than by chasing a ball around and kicking it (and by no means am I knocking soccer.).
Another argument that can be made is that in order for kids to play soccer they need to run and kick, two things that are easy things to be taught, versus swinging a bat, skating on ice, or tackling someone who may be bigger and running full speed at you.
Lastly, I personally think your argument for attendance is very poor. You state over and over again that Baseball has the most attendance and so does football and on and on, but from a mathematical standpoint using your overall attendance, or even the average per game is not a good estimation because average allows for outliers to effect the overall number. The numbers I would like to see are, if possible, the median numbers, or an adjusted mean that excludes outliers, like for baseball the Nationals or other teams that do not perform well. Another thing to look into is comparing all of these numbers to what the number of attendance was when the MLB and NFL was in it’s first 15 years of existence…now this may sound stupid, but there are ways to adjust numbers, revenue atleast, for it being 100 years forward for the MLB and 80 or so for the NFL…just a thought
In Conclusion great job RTP, I think many people will never agree on this, but I feel that people like myself will always root for their major city teams and in America NFL>MLB>NHL/NBA>MLS will reign supreme
I just want to say this somewhere
yesterdays win was not the most important win in US soccer history – the most important win was probably the one no one remembers (or at least most of us don’t remember) in the 50s against england.
When did the US last win a game in the knock out round?
by jemagee on Jun 24, 2010 6:18 PM EDT reply actions
Did they WIN in the knock out round or did they MAKE the knock out round?
by jemagee on Jun 25, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
1950
And the goal was scored by a Hatian who later was disappeared by Papa Doc’s death crews. Imagine if Mike Eruzione was whacked 15 years after Lake Placid by some apeshit dictator like Mugabe. More about the scorer, Joe Gaetjens is here and here.
Remember the Phitans
by RememberthePhitans on Jun 24, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
That win in 1950 was a great win
but if you want “most important”, you could make a case for the 1989 CONCACAF win against Trinidad and Tobago that put the US in the Cup for the first time since 1950 and triggered the start of the modern era of American soccer. It’s vastly underrated in the grand history of American soccer but it is also hugely significant.
Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - C&H
by alcatraz0109 on Jun 25, 2010 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions
The ratings of the games in the quarters and the semis (and even the knock out round) that didn’t involve the United States will be more telling to me than ratings of the game involving the US
by jemagee on Jul 3, 2010 5:55 PM EDT reply actions
My theory
Money and the union. You could have stopped there.
Obviously you touched on the gross income of all the leagues mentioned. Those Euro Leagues are funded by billionaires with teams steeped in decades of soccer tradition. Think Tampa Rays and their attendance issues now. It exists because there is not that generational following if you will.
Finally, the unionization of America. This is readily apparent already in basketball where we have an influx of solid European players at the helm. Have they dominated? No, but they are relevant because of the systems they have in place to develop the players. Aka, they have a minor league system for children as young as 8, and there have been a few youngsters poached from MLS here.
Europe just has too much money for anyone else to compete. They poach great players from NA, SA, Asia, Africa, and a few in Australia. If you are good at soccer, you will not play any place other than Europe. They are to soccer what the Federal Reserve is to the US economy.

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