Phriday Phillies Links Phor You: July 9, 2010: Too Much Perspective on Amaro, LeBron, and Foul Balls
by Wet Luzinski on Jul 9, 2010 7:34 AM EDT
Email
PrintPhillies win on Schneider's homer in 12th.
Parts of that game did qualify for lusty booing, but not the end part. That was cool.
Phillies' Manuel Addresses Team Before Game.
"Fourscore dadgum games ago..."
Hagen: Phillies' GM Ruben Amaro doesn't deserve to be grilled.
The char is not good eatin' anyway. Hagen presents the opening remarks in the case of WIP v. Amaro.
McCaffery: Cliff Lee to Seattle: Easi-Lee the worst trade.
McCaffery for the prosecution. My favorite commenters ever will be like polling the jury!
Conlin: Tinkering with baseball's forever choices? Fat chance.
Interesting premise to pick on undeserving HOF from the (mostly) late 19th and early 20th centuries.
"Maje" McDonnell, longtime Phillies coach and ambassador, dies at 89.
R.I.P. Maje, the Phillies' very own Mr. Positive. As a tribute, I will hereby invoke your image in remaining 2010 game chatters when the Phils need it the most.
Fightins: Jayson Werth doesn't appreciate your catching a foul ball, sir.
An episode from last night's game. Years of therapy for that boy in the pinstripes. Here's what happens in non-Philadelphia cities. But that wasn't the only odd thing that happened in the 12th. Check out the home plate celebration led by Vic. Lots of quality images on the Fightins this morning. Don't miss the one of Chooch.
L'Affaire L'eBron.
No LeBron in New York, but Yanks Wish Him Well.
Imagine if Bill Giles wrote something like this after Schilling and Rolen departed. The beauty part is, he'd have been half-right! And this was just silly.
NLEAST:
AZ Snakepit: Diamondbacks 10, Marlins 4: What is this thing called "Win?" Rodrigo Lopez. For real.
Federal Baseball: Washington Nationals Win Series, Drop Finale 7-1 to the San Diego Padres. Federal Baseball's headline writing style is so huggably bureaucratic. Don't change a thing, boys.
MINORS:
Syracuse 9, Lehigh Valley 0. Domonic Brown's 12-game hit streak ends.
Clearwater 6, Lakeland 4. Aumont FTW!
| Player | IP | H | R | ER | BB | SO | HR | ERA |
| Aumont (W, 1-0) | 6.0 | 4 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 13 | 0 | 4.35 |
101 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
You can’t compare the Phillies to the Mariners! The Phillies aren’t owned by a company supporting the happiness of my childhood.
Loved the girl’s reaction though, it was pretty hilarious.
by Baseball Nerd on Jul 9, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
So I finally watched the Ichiro video. It’s completely different from the Werth situation!
1. It was a girl
2. She tried to get out of the way
3. The game wasn’t in extra innings
By the way, was the girl’s friend male or female?
And Ichiro had no chance at catching the ball. It was out of his reach.
by David S. Cohen on Jul 9, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Lee Armageddon may be upon us.
Joel Sherman reporting that the Yankees are closing in on a deal for our beloved Clifton.
…the Yankees were on the brink of obtaining Cliff Lee late last night for a package that would include top prospect Jesus Montero…
…In the offseason, the Yanks tried to make a deal with Philadelphia and offered Montero as the key piece. But the Phillies decided to take the Mariner offer instead.
Aumont’s 13 strikeouts last night were nice and all, but excuse me while I go stick a few more pins in my Ruben Amaro voodoo doll.
Better Twins or Rangers than either.
by dannijd on Jul 9, 2010 10:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Lee was destined to be a Yankee after that WS Game 1 pwning he gave them last year.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Agreed on both fronts here, and truth be told, I’m not as devastated as most will be about Lee suiting up in navy pinstripes. What I’m more frustrated about is Amaro not taking the best deal out there for Lee, and Jesus Montero (even by himself) would have represented the best deal.
where would Jesus have played? Maybe we could have traded Howard lol.
by Clyde Simmons on Jul 9, 2010 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions
in all seriousness, I agree…the Eagles showed, you take the best deal you can.
I don’t know what other pieces the Yankees were willing to throw in, however. Are Gilles Aumont and Ramerez worse than just Montero?
by Clyde Simmons on Jul 9, 2010 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Montero will never stick at catcher, but he should be fine at first base. That having Montero on hand may have kept Amaro from handing that asinine deal to Howard would have been a massive incidental benefit.
It’s not outside the realm of possibility that the total Gillies/Aumont/Ramirez package wind up being more valuable than Montero in the end, but I wouldn’t bet on it at all. Montero is a manchild — he reminds scouts an awful lot of a young Miguel Cabrera, and PECOTA likes him for a slew of .310/.360/.530 from 2012 to 2019. I’ll take Montero over the combined other three for career WAR, and I’m not even sure it’ll be particularly close.
I agree with you that Montero’s better, yet I remain fairly sanguine about the whole situation. After a good deal of deliberation this offseason, I came to the tentative conclusion that I thought the guys we got from Seattle were underrated. Their struggles this year have not yet dissuaded me from that view.
Another question is: Is this a good deal for the Yankees? I would estimate that Lee would save them about 1 run per game every time he starts. He’ll have about 15 more starts after the break, plus 1-2 per postseason series. 1 R/G is a big benefit, but is it really worth Montero? I don’t know.
I agree that the guys we got were slightly underrated. Or, at least, I thought Gillies and Ramirez were substantially underrated, while Aumont was probably a touch overrated.
But in the offseason, Montero was being classified as a special bat (and I don’t think that’s really changed all that much). I’d admit if I was being revisionist at all, but I’m not — back in December, I would definitely have preferred Montero (plus a low level chuck in or two) to the package we got.
yeah, it would have been really nice to have Montero as a Howard replacement in 2 years, then resign Werth.
Now that I think about it, I would have taken the Montero package over our package as well, even though I also think the guys we got were underrated.
by Clyde Simmons on Jul 9, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
We wouldn’t even have needed to re-sign Werth. Montero and Brown could have anchored the middle of the lineup for half a decade at least.
Not that he was right to do so, but I’ll bet that Amaro’s main reason for turning Montero down (if in fact Montero was offered) was that, whether or not he wanted to re-sign Howard in the abstract, he wanted to avoid the awkward situation of playing out the string on Howard’s existing contract with his replacement waiting in the wings. He probably felt that the distraction, controversy, and ill-will this could generate could be so detrimental to the team that it justified committing to Howard regardless of whether that was the best decision on pure baseball terms. Of course, the deal he did take generated controversy too, but of a different type. Again, I’m not saying I agree, I don’t. (There’s also the “not wanting to help the Yankees” thing, but I doubt that was the driving force.)
I’m sure that had to play into his thinking somewhat. On the other hand, if he decided that Montero was capable of opening 2011 as the starting first baseman, he could’ve dealt Howard in the upcoming offseason.
And while I agree that there’s no way the “not wanting to help the Yankees” thing was the driving force, I have my suspicions that Ruben feared the PR hit he would take if he dealt Lee to the Yankees less than two months after the World Series. And if that’s the case, that’s GM malfeasance of the highest order.
The one thing that makes me doubt that that was important in the analysis is that Amaro is so oblivious to PR in most other circumstances. Even the move he did make was pretty bad for PR. I suppose it could have come down from ownership though, although that isn’t really Monty’s style.
Anyway, enough of that – here’s some analysis we can all disagree with (third comment down on the page).
Ugh.
Although, hypothetically, which would be worse: watching the Yankees trade nothing for Lee (and knowing he could be had for that little)? Or watching the Yankees trade too much for him (and knowing we could have had that package in return for Lee back in December)? I’m not sure there’s a correct answer.
I don't think we know the best deal that would have been available for Lee during the off-season.
I do believe the story that we could have had Montero during the off-season; my belief is reinforced by the fact that, within a few days of the Lee trade, the Braves received a package that included Vizcaino for Vasquez.
My guess is that there would have been plenty of additional offers for Lee had Amaro waited for the market for Lee to develop. One or more of those offers might have been better than Lee for Montero, but we’ll never know.
Amaro may have sat at the feet of Gillick while learning the trade, but Amaro’s no Pat Gillick.
by Derekcarstairs on Jul 9, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Gillick wasn’t all that great either.
In any event, this is all consistent with Amaro’s profile. His philosophy, whether conscious or subconscious, is to be extremely bold on tactics, but extremely conservative on strategy. Amaro never holds out for the best deal, the best contract, the best player, the best anything. He will always take a pretty good deal if it’s immediate and certain, and will sacrifice the opportunity to get the best in order to eliminate the risk that he will be left with nothing. But in order to achieve immediacy and certainty, he is willing to make very bold, momentous, sweeping decisions. He has made many moves during his tenure that fit this profile to a tee.
100% agreed.
Whatever else we can say about the Hallday/Lee deal, everyone can agree that the timing of the Lee portion was completely unnecessary. Many (including myself) thought at the time that Amaro should’ve found a taker for Blanton, even at 40 cents on the dollar; but even if we accept the premise that Lee needed to be dealt to restock the farm, there surely were better offers to be had by waiting.
Also from The Fightins:
Not sure who my favorite is here. There’s Vic, obviously, acting like a sociopath. Then you see Werth do the double-devil horns. And Castro rubbing both of their heads. And Howard chanting something over and over that appears to be “OH SHIT…”
Either way, it’s great and makes me feel like 2008-9 again.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Saw this as a photo in the Inquirer this morning and I’m trying to figure out how to post it. The photo makes it look like Vic is going to impale Schneider. And Werth is just awesome.
by David S. Cohen on Jul 9, 2010 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
As a still
From today’s Inquirer, David Swanson photographer.
by David S. Cohen on Jul 9, 2010 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
This could be the eternal optimist in me, but this could be the start of a turnaround for our Phils. A win tonight (yes I know it’s Cupcakes going for us) will see us at least split this series with Halladay and Hamels coming to pitch the final two games. Assuming we can give run support to Halladay, we stand a decent chance of taking at least three of the four games. Ruiz could come back as early as Saturday, and Polanco returns after the break. We still won’t have Utley, but we will have a real second baseman in Polanco and our regular catcher for a change. Maybe with the return of these guys, the team will get back into it’s groove and we can make a run at those Braves. Still a lot of baseball to play.
by Baseball Nerd on Jul 9, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
It could be… My only concern tonight is that it is cupcakes going, and while the only win we had the last time we played the reds was the game he pitched (Blanton got stuck with the no decision after Lidge blew the save and wound up with the (BS)(W)), his games are generally bullpenn-ey affairs, and the bullpen has to be more than a little thin after the last two nights. I hope that the icing does not melt on the Cupcakes tonight, and that the Phillies are able to get back a little of their winning ways over the next three games.
Like you, the return of familiar faces gives me hope that the team will return to it’s more familiar winning ways. There is still a ton of baseball to be played!
by dannijd on Jul 9, 2010 10:52 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So I guess Rose still likes to Ride the Snake from time to time and after the inevitable coronary scare gives the rest of his stash to Vic.
Check out the Pinstripe Alley coverage of the potential Lee / Montero trade. They HATE it over there! “Why move Montero for Lee now when we can just sign him in the offseason?”
They’re right though.
If they’re dealing Montero for a starter, it should be for Dan Haren. Or if they’re dead set on Lee, they should just wait until the offseason. Buster Olney noted that it would save the Yankees a draft pick to just trade for Lee now, but Montero is literally a million times better than a draft pick.
Oh no I agree with you, I was actually surprised to hear so much dissent from Yankees fans about this one. They know they can outbid anyone in free agency, so why get him now? In actuality, their poll says that despite a lot of the comments against the trade, most of them want to see it happen. Those are your typical Yankees fans, win now and don’t worry about later, because we can just pay someone else to play catcher in a few years anyway.
Of course the Yankees themselves would trade Montero for Lee so that could add an ace to a staff that already includes two aces. Unnecessary? Yes. Makes them even more unbeatable? Yes. Addresses any bullpen issues they have? Indirectly. Blockbuster that will keep people talking about the Yankees? Absolutely.
This isn’t the sort of thing where the Brewers picked up Sabathia for a half year rental so they could make the playoffs, knowing that they couldn’t possibly sign him in the offseason. The Yankees can, and probably will if they don’t make the trade. It’s a very different philosophy.
by Baseball Nerd on Jul 9, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I was wondering that when I heard the possible trade on ESPN it seems like the Yanks are doing fine and you know lee wants the huge check I know he doesn’t have a choice right now but I guess he feels maybe they are going to win again and is happy.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Jul 9, 2010 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
If Montero does have any hope of a future at catcher (not much of a prospect watcher, although I am working on it), I am surprised that the Yankees would trade him, as Posada is getting older, more injury prone, and less effective when he is there. While I hate their assumption that they can just get him after the season, I know the Yankees have the deepest pockets in the league and could give Lee anything he wanted, and agree with them about bot giving up prospects to get him a little sooner.
by dannijd on Jul 9, 2010 10:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I was upset at the guy who took the ball away from Werth as well and was glad that nothing untoward happened or I might have irrationally thrown something at my tv.
by SportingFanaticism on Jul 9, 2010 10:22 AM EDT reply actions
Yeah, except it happens a lot I think it’s just inevitable, in the heat of the moment, the fan focuses on the ball not the player and more often than not gets in the way.
Like I said, just glad no impact on the game.
And it was shortly after that pretty good catch against the wall too
by SportingFanaticism on Jul 9, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Right after that play I prayed for the third out in that inning to occur swiftly and without further incident lest that poor guy wind up not surviving the trip from his seat to the car.
by dannijd on Jul 9, 2010 11:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thanks for posting the link to the Phightins
Their comments section was precious… It gave me my much needed laugh for the day.
So whose side is everyone on here?
by dannijd on Jul 9, 2010 11:11 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
The Yankees ending up with Lee doesn't bother me nearly as much as it should.
It merely makes the Yankees the prohibitive favorite to win the World Series this year, once again.
And it’s really not as if the Phlliles were destined for another go-around with the Yankees in the WS this year. I’d be surprised if they made it to the NLCS this year. Thankfully, we’ll probably be spared the nightmare scenario of Phillies hitters being mowed down by Cliff Lee in a Yankees uniform in a WS game.
If he were to sign with the Mets, on the other hand, that would be a different issue.
I read a comment on another site
That said, “If Lee goes to the Yanks, it’s season over for Phils.”
My response, “Wait…what?”
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
I know I keep repeating myself, but Lee to the Yankees doesn’t really bother me at all — it’s the fact that the package the Yankees will send to Seattle is better than what the Phillies got for Lee, and that the Phillies could have had that package (or, probably, a better one).
I know I keep repeating myself, but Lee to the Yankees doesn’t really bother me at all
Hmmm. I’d say having to say that might indicate that your like all non-Yankees fans – a little piece of your baseball soul just got the wind knocked out of it. You just have a better understanding of probablity and stats. than the average fan has to rationalize the pain away.
What would be really sweet is if the Yankees give up Montero for Lee and then lose in the playoffs anyway. Which could very well happen. Postseason series are crapshoots.
Yeah it’s a game with alot of variance- I get it. Also I understand the how Lee doesn’t really add that much more value inlight of marginal utility. But you just illustrated my point or can you so easily compartmentalize your emotions. My point was it’s alright to feel shitty about it and express it. – no one will think less of someone for it cause deep down we’re still little kids who love the game.
What I'm hearing up in New Jack
Lee to Yanks for Montero
Werth to Yanks for Vazquez.
Gotta be some other guys involved but just giving you what I am hearing.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
Same response I gave
Both are expiring contracts so why?
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
I mean, Vazquez is a pretty good pitcher and would be an upgrade over whoever we bump from our rotation.
But Werth —> Francisco is a bigger downgrade than Vazquez is an upgrade. And Werth —> Brown is a dumb developmental risk that could really hurt us in the future. I don’t see how this trade benefits us at all.
As my dad always says, when hearing criticism, advice, or rumors: “Look at the ears and consider the source.”
That said, and with all caveats in place, mlbtraderumors.com is reporting that the Werth-Vasquez swap is not tremendously likely. I think this is more a rumor that has legs if only because it’s somewhat troubling from a Phillies perspective.
Maybe not the Yankees?
If any of this is anything more than posturing through the media (or made up stories):
From Rotoworld:
Joel Sherman of the New York Post reports that the “Mariners are backing off” the Yankees’ offer for Cliff Lee and that it doesn’t look like the “Yankees are in it.” Shocking if true, since it seemed like a done deal all afternoon. The Mariners were believed to be receiving Jesus Montero, David Adams and Zach McAllister for Lee. Sherman says the Mariners were concerned about Adams’ ankle and that another team has stepped up with a big offer.
It’s only nice if he doesn’t wind up with an NL team.
by David S. Cohen on Jul 9, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
And who’s the other team with the big offer???? I think we’ll all be on Lindsay Lohan suicide watch if Lee goes to the Mets…
Do the Mets realistically have a package that can compete with that above from the Yanks?
The Braves do…not that they really need pitching.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
Dig it the Reds are. And Lee’s slated to pitch Saturday.
So now that seems destined to happen. Oh, and Lee with Dusty Baker could be a riot.
Ooooo
That’s bad. But funny.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
Are there any other big names that might come over from the AL to the NL? The only real AL name I’ve seen discussed as being on the block is Lee. The other big names I see are NL guys – Oswalt, Berkman, Haren, Johnson, Fielder, Hart, maybe Werth.
Cliff Lee and Mark Lowe traded to the Rangers for Justin Smoak and 3 other prospects.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com//
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
I’m good with it. Better than the Met’s…though in fairness, I shouldn’t care because the Phillies need to take care of their own business…but I really didn’t want RAJ’s massive fail to come back and smack us in the face.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Ummmm, wow.
Went into study-imposed Internet blackout for a few hours, and the Lee trade turns upside down!
I think I’d have preferred the Yankees’ package, but only slightly. Smoak is a switch-hitting, good fielding first baseman with excellent plate discipline, and he’s a real coup for the M’s. Still doesn’t change the ultimate analysis: the Mariners got more for Cliff Lee than they gave up to get him.
Is the deal the Mariners got from the Rangers better than the deal the Phillies got from the Mariners?
by SportingFanaticism on Jul 9, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Next Game
Philadelphia Phillies
@
St. Louis Cardinals
Thursday, May 24, 2012, 8:15 PM EDT
Busch Stadium
Clear. Winds blowing out to left field at 15-20 m.p.h. Game time temperature around 85.
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Local radio host honors Cubs’ Tony Campana with parody song
- Roy Halladay bobblehead with glove on wrong hand selling on MLB.com
- Will Smith shows why making your big-league debut at Yankee Stadium is less than ideal
- Steinbrenners selling the Yankees? Family denies New York Daily News report
- The Juice: Brandon Phillips flip sets up Todd Frazier walkoff for Reds
