Two Quick Links For You, August 25, 2010: Miztur Andurzun Sees, Hates the Matrix, The Drama Unfolds
by WholeCamels on Aug 25, 2010 7:58 AM EDT
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PrintVery, very short link post today. Here are the two posts that sum up last night's shenanigans best:
The Fightins - The Circumstances Which Led To Roy Oswalt Playing Left Field
As always, The Fightins deploys the finest in A/V aids.
Larry F***ing Andersen - UMPPPPPSSSSS
Phillies radio broadcaster and noted umpire hater Larry Anderson loses his mind after Ryan Howard's ejection, brought to you by @Phylan from teh Twitter.
Find any others? Share in the comments!
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Really enjoyed the links today. I though Larry Anderson was spot on his criticism of the umpire. He needs to keep his composure (especially that late in the game). It’s a shame when umps (or refs in any sport) let their emotions get the best of them late in the game and affect the outcome, instead of letting the players decide it.
Howard really showed his frustration about his night after that. Hopefully he can bounce back soon.
Did anyone read/hear/see the incident Barry had in Washington? Barry was the home plate ump and tossed Zimmerman and Riggleman from the ball game because Zim threw his bat and helmet in disgust with himself after striking out swinging. Zimmerman’s first career ejection. He struck out, threw his stuff and started walking to third base. Didn’t actually say a word until after he got tossed.
Clearly Scott Barry has a little man complex.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
The Larry Andersen clip is awesome.
As for Barry, that was an insane call and a more insane ejection. The bat didn’t even come close to crossing the plane of the plate on the strike-three call. It was an easy call. But after that, Howard didn’t do anything more than flip his bat with a little more umph, but no more outrageous than any other batter called out on strikes who then walks into the field. Barry took that as a personal affront and changed the outcome of the game. Howard had every right to be livid after that.
Your comment is succinct and well written. I agree completely. Perhaps we can use it to better edit Wikipedia’s Golden Sombrero entry, which already has an account of last nights game. …Sigh…
by Boundforbeach on Aug 25, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Barry took that as a personal affront and changed the outcome of the game. Howard had every right to be livid after that.
And this to me is a problem more prevalent in baseball than any other professional sport, and i’d be willing to bet a little computer technology would make calls like this on replay impersonal and much more fool proof
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you completely. Baseball umpires seem to enjoy inserting themselves into the game more so than in any of the other 3 major sports. I’ve seen players and refs in football and basketball get a little heated with each other but usually it ends 5 seconds after it started and everyone moves on. It rarely happens in hockey, players may bark at a ref but usually the ref/linesmen just looks the other way. In baseball these guys seem to welcome the confrontation and in some cases bait players into them. And sure why not? Ultimately they have final say, they can eject the player. Even if the MLB wants to suspend or fine an ump later for doing so, the damage has already been done. Players are powerless against guys like Barry, West etc.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Agreed. I couldn’t really see exactly what had happened last night from my vantage point at the ballpark, but after watching the video this morning, it’s clear that Barry’s conduct was completely outrageous. I am utterly appalled by those who have suggested that Ryan was even slightly at fault for what occurred. He was not. Look at Barry’s facial expression and posture after the first pitch. It is obvious that he was deliberately and premeditatedly setting Ryan up to be tossed. It isn’t enough for Barry to be sent back down to AAA. He should be fired. He has no place in professional baseball.
Agreed in sentiment, although, considering a comment Shane made about him after the game (that Barry is generally fair and a good guy… granted it may have been said in an attempt to smooth things over with someone they have to deal with today, but still…), perhaps the fairest thing would be to suspend him and then send him back down to say AA ball to work on his attitude- just as I would not want Ryan to be judged solely based on his behavior last night, so perhaps it should be with this ump (although the earlier incident in Washington does argue in favor of his firing).
There was nothing wrong with Ryan’s behavior last night, and it is offensive and shameful for you to suggest that there was.
Are you saying that charging at an umpire is ok behavior? While I would not have ejected Ryan over his behavior prior to being ejected (granted I would not have taunted him into it, either), charging at an umpire is out of line. However, in judging Ryan Howard (both career wise, and possibly what if any punishment is appropriate here), it would be wrong to look at just this one incident. So it is also with this ump.
Yes. Since you know nothing about the sport of baseball, perhaps you are unaware that it is permitted under the rules to approach an umpire and argue a call. Are you saying Ryan should be punished more severely because he was jogging instead of walking? Or because he was upset while going over there? Get a clue.
I am aware that it is permitted under the rules to approach an umpire and argue a call (although I thought that whether or not one went around on a check swing was largely akin to arguing balls and strikes). I think that Ryan’s demeanor does play into how I judge his behavior. And perhaps you are right that I judge it a little too harshly
Howard had already been ejected at the time he approached Barry, so the prohibition against arguing balls and strikes is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT.
You are right but when managers get suspended it’s because of how they went about arguing with the ump, not the fact that they argued with the umpire. There is a rule that you are automatically ejected for arguing balls and strikes. There is no rule that says that an ejection automatically is followed by a suspension.
I believe what dannijd is saying is that Howard had a right to argue with the ump since he had already(wronglyfully) been ejected but the way in which he did so could warrant him a suspension. I can’t say I entirely disagree with that.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
What did he do? He didn’t touch him. He didn’t throw a base. And it is completely unfair to assume that he would have touched him had he not been restrained. Is there a precedent for suspending either a player or a manager because of the degree to which he raised his voice?
You are absolutely right, Howard did not touch Barry and I highly doubt he would have. He didn’t throw a base, or kick dirt or anything else of that nature. And no there is probably not a rule on at what decibel level and argument has to reach before a manager or player is suspended but again, people have been ejected for the manor in which they conduct their argument. Running down the line to get to the umpire and having to be restrained by two players, an umpire and a base coach shows that Howard as a tad heated. And I agree that he has every right to be. But if MLB deemed what Howard did last night to be over the top I can’t disagree with that. I don’t fault Howard for being pissed or wanting to get his money’s worth with Barry after he was already ejected but just like everything else in life, there are degrees in which someone can do something before it is deemed over the line.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
In my opinion, that second umpire should be suspended. From watching the video, Howard had stopped advancing towards Barry, and was walking parallel to the line of guys that had been holding him back when the ump approaches Howard and lays hands on him. There was no need for the umpire to deliberately move into Howard.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
So where does the ump rotation put Barry for tonight’s game? Behind the plate or at second base? Because if he’s behind the plate, there are going to be four very uncomfortable interactions with Ryan Howard tonight.
2nd base I believe.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Either way
Thursday is going to be the real gem, with Barry as the 1st base ump.
"It was almost like if Harry didn't call it, it wasn't real." - Jayson Stark
SB Nation
by Chris Haines on Aug 25, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Assuming Howard isn’t suspended.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Why would he be suspended? Isn’t that usually for making contact with an ump?
Umpires are worse than the old fart NBA refs inserting themselves into the game. Look on that guys face before he ejected howard, from the highlights, his expression to me seemed one not of enjoyment of his job.
Wasn’t that the second questionable call in the at bat from him? (I only had MLB Network to see the game)
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Well you can be suspended if they deem Howards antics post ejection to be over the top.
Technically he did make contact with an ump, and that was the ump holding Ryan back. Which is also something that should be looked at as the ump to my understanding is prohibited from touching a player just as a player is prohibited from touching an ump. Now granted the circumstance in which the ump initiated contact with Howard is clearly different but still, a rule is a rule.
It was the second questionable call from Barry in the sense that it was the second check swing of Howards in that at bat that Barry deemed to be a swing. The first check swing Howard definitely went around, on the second one, the one that resulted in the strike out, Howard clearly held up his swing.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Technically, the ump made contact with Howard :)
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
If he gets suspended, words won’t be able to capture the ridiculousness of the situation.
by Boundforbeach on Aug 25, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
I can’t imagine he gets suspended, but if he does it will be unbelievably ridiculous.
"It was almost like if Harry didn't call it, it wasn't real." - Jayson Stark
SB Nation
by Chris Haines on Aug 25, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
He charged down the baseline to go at an umpire. I seriously doubt he had any intention of getting into any type of physical confrontation with Barry but he did charge down the line to get close to him. MLB suspending him for that would not surprise me a tall.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
This. I doubt that the contact with the home plate umpire will be what leads to the suspension (as that ump purposefully made contact with Ryan for the purpose of holding him back), but the MLB does not look kindly on charging their umps.
I'm not saying
that it would be entirely shocking, but it would be egregiously absurd. (Does that phrase make sense? Maybe?) They SHOULD take the whole scenario into account when determining a suspension. Ryan was called out on a questionable call, then proceeded to throw his bat, but ultimately had intention of walking away from the incident and going to his defensive position. This is the point where the ump overreacted and tossed him, LEAVING HIS TEAM WITH 7 POSITION PLAYERS. There are very few players who wouldn’t have walked out to the umpire to get a few parting words on the guy (he walked at first and only jogged after people tried to stop him). Any contact with umpires on Ryan’s part was initiated by said umpires and given the really obvious evidence that Barry was the one out of line there, Howard actually left the field and dugout in a pretty timely fashion.
So again, I’m not saying that MLB won’t suspend Howard, but if they do, it will be absurdly ridiculous. He did nothing to warrant being thrown from the game until he was actually thrown from the game and did nothing at that point that actually warrants a suspension (especially given his track record as one of the calmer and respectful guys in baseball).
"It was almost like if Harry didn't call it, it wasn't real." - Jayson Stark
SB Nation
by Chris Haines on Aug 25, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree….it seems to me that the easiest thing to do, maybe not the right thing but the easiest thing to do would be to just ignore it all together and remember the context in which this all happened and consider Howards history or ejections or lack there of. However, can they ignore Howard and still do something about Barry? That I don’t know. I certainly hope so.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Why not? When Mike Winters provoked Milton Bradley a few years ago, Bradley was not disciplined (perhaps because he had to go on the DL anyway but perhaps not), while Winters was suspended for the remainder of the season. The same thing should happen here, except that the punishment for Barry should be even more severe.
I agree, and hopefully that is exactly what happens.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
I was thinking the same thing about 1st base Thursday. Howard will be in the game (as long as Manuel wants him to be), as any suspension will be appealed and not taken care of by Thursday. The question is whether MLB will get rid of Barry by then.
by David S. Cohen on Aug 25, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
An appeal is not automatic, the player can decide not to appeal the suspension- Torii Hunter was suspended from 8/7- 8/10 for behavior committed on 8/6.
If he’s suspended, there is practically no way it isn’t appealed. The Phillies won’t want to just let that one go especially after Monday night’s events.
"It was almost like if Harry didn't call it, it wasn't real." - Jayson Stark
SB Nation
by Chris Haines on Aug 25, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
That may depend on what the Phillies think their chances of success with an appeal are- while Ryan has the final decision whether to appeal, the team may pressure him to just take it if they think they are unlikely to win the appeal on the basis that it is better to deal with being without him right now for two games while he is not hitting anyway than to lose him for two games once he heats up.
Yeah
That appeal is at least likely to get the suspension cut in half if it is more than a game. Seems like they would definitely appeal.
And, it must be stated again, that it will be patently absurd if he is suspended at all and this comes to pass.
"It was almost like if Harry didn't call it, it wasn't real." - Jayson Stark
SB Nation
by Chris Haines on Aug 25, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
plus whether you start him or not is different from not being able to use him at all.
by Wet Luzinski on Aug 25, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Here’s the video of the Ryan Zimmerman incident from last week, which has been discussed a lot this morning. This guy should not be permitted to umpire professional baseball.
Link didn’t work for me. Any other attempt for it? I’d love to see it.
by David S. Cohen on Aug 25, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
ticking off two of the stars of the game too.
by Wet Luzinski on Aug 25, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks TP. That was more outrageous than the Howard ejection, as Zimmerman’s third strike was swinging, so Barry wasn’t even actively involved in what Zimmerman was reacting to.
by David S. Cohen on Aug 25, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
In Barry’s mind Zimmerman threw his bat in disgust because Zimmerman believed he was walked on the pitch before.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
The guy has a complex. Are psych evaluations not required to become an umpire? If not, they should be.
Per MLB.com
In order to become an umpire, a person must meet the following requirements:
• High school diploma or G.E.D.
• Reasonable body weight
• 20/20 vision (with or without corrective lenses)
• Good communication skills
• Quick reflexes, good coordination
• Some athletic ability
• Required preliminary training for the job (i.e., professional umpire school)
It said nothing about a psych evaluation, although I would not entirely disagree with such being required.
What the F is reasonable body weight? That seems to discriminatory to really skinny or really fat people.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
then why is Joe West still umping? Ba dum da…
by Boundforbeach on Aug 25, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
That is the wording they added 15 years ago-ish to can Eric Gregg and a few other rather rotund employees during the strike.
Actually the one that stands out to me is ‘good communication skills’
Seems most umps lack those
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure he’s also imagining in his mind that “These guys are trying to take advantage of me because I’m a minor league call-up. I need to show them who’s boss.”
Probably spot-on, but also exactly the wrong attitude to have.
by David S. Cohen on Aug 25, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
here’s a couple of links you might enjoy
“Column to be named later: The Scott Barry Show”
http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/2010/08/25/column-to-be-named-later-the-scott-barry-show/
And my favorite: “A Profanity Laced Rant Regarding Scott Barry”
http://thatballsouttahere.com/2010/08/25/a-profanity-laced-rant-regarding-minor-league-umpire-scott-barry/
by Boundforbeach on Aug 25, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
AMAZING!
a minor league umpire tosses 2 of the biggest names in the sport with-in a week!?!
No excuse and this guy should never be allowed to umpire professionally again!
Two All-Stars within a week—he tosses a third, he gets a free beer koozy.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
He seems to have precisely the type of personality that would say, “Oh, so they think I’ll be too intimidated to eject another player tonight? Well in that case I will!”
I look forward to Thursday when he assists the Astros in a run down between first and second a’la Frank Drebin.
by Cormican on Aug 25, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
hahaha
rec’d
"It was almost like if Harry didn't call it, it wasn't real." - Jayson Stark
SB Nation
by Chris Haines on Aug 25, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Nah
As has been pointed out before, he only has a problem with players named Ryan. Which means that Madson will be tossed in the 8th tonight after a bad call on a pickoff attempt at 2nd.
Wow
That’s horrible. No one in the right mind would think he deserved to be ejected.
Fire this guy now.
I'm now Kolb's biggest fan
The threshold issue is whether Barry reports Howard’s conduct as being “flagrant”
MLB Rule 9.05 (b)
b.When any trainer, manager, coach or player is disqualified for a flagrant offense such as the use of obscene or indecent language, or an assault upon an umpire, trainer, manager, coach or player, the umpire shall forward full particulars to the Office of the Commissioner within four hours after the end of the game.
c.After receiving the umpire’s report that a trainer, manager, coach or player has been disqualified, the Office of the Commissioner shall impose such penalty as it deems justified…
(emphasis added)
Is there any possible way you don’t drop an F-bomb or other potential “obscene or indecent language” after that brain fart of a call?
I certainly did in my post-game rant. I haven’t been this livid about a game for quite some time.
I believe it is part of an umpire’s job to feel the pulse of the game and follow it—understanding the situation and what it calls for is the overarching theme above and beyond just calling “balls and strikes” and what-have-you. This is the more complex “human side” to baseball, and isn’t for mental midgets like Scott Barry.
Scott Barry: Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
Yea that’s true. In the future when robots are the umps (perfect balls/strikes, instant fair/foul, 3 ft base path laser analysis), and they have a method to analyze speech and movement to deem it flagrant and eject players late in important games that would force teams to put pitchers in the OF, we’ll be wishing for the good ol’ days with the human element.
Oh wait
by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Aug 25, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
If I’m Frank Robinson or whoever else it is in Selig’s office who handles these matters, and that bush league turd of an umpire forwards the particulars of that incident to me claiming that he was flagrantly abused, I tear the report up in his face and throw him out of my office.
Frank Robinson is supposedly the guy assigned to managing the umpires.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
I REALLY hope so
because as a former player, he would totally be on Howard’s side on this one. Barry is already on a bus to Lehigh Valley (or even Lakewood) if he’s the guy handling it.
"It was almost like if Harry didn't call it, it wasn't real." - Jayson Stark
SB Nation
by Chris Haines on Aug 25, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Keep Barry and Gibson away from the Phillies organization as a whole. I feel bad for the other guys on this crew because there will def. be a keen eye on their actions
by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Aug 25, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed as to the keen eye, although I think it is deserved considering some of the other calls in this game (Rollins’s “caught stealing” and the non-tag at second earlier in the game, that whole crew needs to be looked at closely.
Exactly. I have no sympathy for any member of that crew. If Sam Holbrook can’t keep control of his umpiring crew then he has no business being a crew chief. That he initiated contact with Ryan Howard simply adds to the absurdity. I said it last night, this crew should be blown apart and dispersed onto different crews. Scott Barry should just be fired for his actions last night and last week. Absolutely ludicrous.
Yes… and whether or not Barry reports it as “flagrant” will speak volumes as to his make up. He appears like an arrogant attention whore, so I fully expect he will. But the rules— as I read them— do make a distinction. An ump can eject a player for unsportsmanlike conduct or language. (see below). But it’s only when the conduct is reported as “flagrant” that possible disciplinary action comes into play.
MLB Rule 9.01 (d)
d.Each umpire has authority to disqualify any player, coach, manager or substitute for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct or language, and to eject such disqualified person from the playing field.
by Boundforbeach on Aug 25, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
K So this might give one chills but I had a dream last night the Phils tied it up again and Kendrick was heading into the 19th to pitch
by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Aug 25, 2010 10:41 AM EDT reply actions
Thanks for reminding me...
As much as Ryan’s ejection has made all of the headlines, and is the big aggravation taken away from this game (well other than losing the game), two moves on the part of the Phillies led to their undoing:
- Having Ben Fransisco pinch hit for Domonic Brown in the seventh. I understand the logistics of wanting a right handed hitter to face a left handed pitcher, but this game may have been a lot different had either been available.
- Not putting Kendrick in at the top of the 16th. While I understand that Herndon had pitched well in the 14th and 15th innings, he is a reliever, and not used to playing multiple innings or high pitch counts. I was very surprised when he hit for himself in the 15th and then went back out for the 16th.
And considering some of the dreams I have had, no, yours does not give me chills.
Herndon hadn’t pitched in 5 days, there was no reason he couldn’t go a third inning. Plus he pitched fine in that inning. He was murdered by bad luck.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Crashburn Alley has a nice article on Umps today.
http://crashburnalley.com/2010/08/25/umpires-are-to-be-seen-and-not-heard/
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
Here’s the general problem (again it seems to be more prevalent in baseball than other sports) as I see it. Officials are not supposed to be noticed, they aren’t ‘part’ of the game per se, no one pays to come see them play, they are there to make a game run smoothly, and yet so many umps seem to seek out attention, to seek conflict, to insert themselves into the game. It’s a problem that seems to get worse season after season and MLB seems uninterested in doing anything but protecting the ‘sanctity’ of the umpire and the necessity of the ‘human element’ because it adds to the allure of this beautiful game (sorry bud, statue and all, get it right if you can, don’t give me this human element bull).
Maybe it’s cause the umpires union sucks as much as the players union, but something has to be done
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 10:54 AM EDT reply actions
This seemed like a much bigger problem twenty years ago, to be honest. The long-term trend has been strongly directed toward taking power away from umpires. The Mike Winters incident was recent and was very unlike the way MLB used to treat umpires.
This Barry incident doesn’t have much to do with the umpires union, considering he’s just a minor league fill-in whose been up for a couple of weeks. It’s not like the union has been protecting him – he just came up from AAA and immediately started pulling this stuff.
There was a lot less techology available 20 years ago as well though, there are solutions for common ‘issues’ that cause consternation (like Howard last night, like the ‘ruined’ perfect game) that would make the game move more smoothly – the replay would take a lot less time than most arguments the lack of replay causes.
I have no doubt that two cameras and a simple (to the programmer) computer program could be written to avoid the whole ‘check swing’ issue quite easily. In my mind it’s similar to the in/out replay in tennis.
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
the ruined perfect game doesn’t disgust me because
1) Joyce admitted his error
2) Joyce openly regretted the mistake.
3) It ended up not affecting the outcome of the game.
But instant replay could have fixed it rather easily. I udnerstand it would require a fine description of what is and isn’t reviewable, but a play like that (to me) would be reviewable since it was the end of the play (Plays that keep going and it’s not going to be the 3rd out, those are more complicated)
Something earlier this week – Pasada ‘tagged’ a guy out at home, and was called out, except the ball was in his other hand.
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, (1) I think NBA officials are not all that different from MLB officials – Steve Javie has as much of a trigger finger as any baseball umpire – and (2) there is a flipside toward taking independence away from the umpires, which is that league accountability also means league control. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that in the NBA, where referees are much more vulnerable to disciplinary action, you also have many more whispers of corruption, with referees bending to the will of Stern in how they call games. I think the accusations of outright game-fixing are not very believable, but I am very open to the idea that NBA referees are subconsciously influenced by indirect cues from the commissioner’s office.
Well see, now that’s why i said seems more prevalent in baseball than other sports. I didn’t say it didn’t exist in other sports, I said more prevalent, which indicates that I probably know it happens in other sports. Steve Javie, Dick Bavetta, and others, yes, I’m aware NBA officials have more problems, but you also have a much more fast moving game witha lot more physical contact and a lot going on at once with a lot of issues that replay wouldn’t solve, and I was talking about the problems in baseball,
, but I am very open to the idea that NBA referees are subconsciously influenced by indirect cues from the commissioner’s office.
I’m sure you are, though if this were true, the san antonio spurs wouldn’t ever have made the NBA finals.
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
We are both in agreement that the issue is a greater one in MLB. All we are disagreeing on is the degree of difference.
but I am very open to the idea that NBA referees are subconsciously influenced by indirect cues from the commissioner’s office.
I’m sure you are, though if this were true, the san antonio spurs wouldn’t ever have made the NBA finals.
Actually, this does not follow, logically. There is such a thing as partial causation. That is to say, A can play a partial role in causing B, without A being either a necessary or a sufficient condition for B.
how many nba refs can you name due to them being controversial and overl involved (and still working in the NBA)
How many MLB umps can you name for the same reason?
As for your partial causation, I get that you like to nitpick, it’s fine, but your argument is spewed constantly and it’s nonsense, it’s nonsense because while I believe that certain players get better calls, I don’t think Stern wants it that way, I think it’s human nature to believe the better players are less at fault in the ‘opinion’ calls. And so many more (most) of the NBA calls are more opinion calls. If a guy has a rep as a flopper for instance, a charge is less likely to be called when he takes a dive, if someone trys to draw a charge from kobe bryant, it’s less likely they’ll get the call, not because stern wants it that way but because that’s just human nature.
Ryan Howard swings a lot, he strikes out a lot, on a borderline call human nature probably tells you ‘he swung’ if it’s close in your mind because Ryan Howard strikes out a lot.
The technology you seem opposed to takes away that human element and just deals with the facts regardless of the perception of the player (or players) involved.
MLB has a lot of issues that could easily be solved by replay that probably would also solve said issues quickly.
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I think last night was a case where if the tables were turned and it was even Jose Reyes or Manny doing exactly what Howard did and getting thrown out, I might side with Reyes or Manny. Might…
by Sept.28.Oct.27.Dec.28.2008 on Aug 25, 2010 10:58 AM EDT reply actions
I think the ultimate test of whether or not a player who is liked did something wrong was wrong/ should be punished is to ask that question— if it was a player you hated, would you feel the same? If you can not agree with the behavior when someone disliked did it, then you can’t agree with it here either.
We haven't discussed the other umpire as well, the one who pushed Howard back.
That’s a no-no as well. If a player cannot touch the umpire then why can the umpire touch the player?
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
Something along the lines of “THe umpire is supposed to maintain order” – that’s my guess
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Then how come you never see them touch a player unless there is a brawl ensuing?
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Aug 25, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
also doesn’t bug me. He probably saved Howard from doing something stupid and getting a possibly lengthy ejection.
That is my whole feeling here- he was trying to break it up. That umpire was not trying to attack Ryan or to come at him in anger (or at least that is not what I saw from him). While he maybe should have let Ryan and the team handle it, I don’t fault him too much.
I am not so upset with that umpire- I think he was trying, like Polanco, to protect Howard from himself- had Howard gotten to Barry, I am not fully sure what he would have done to him, and think that stopping him was probably the best thing, thus while Gibson is still in my dog house for his behavior on Monday, I am not too aggravated with him helping to restrain Ryan.
The umps aren’t supposed to touch the players, just as the players are not supposed to touch the umps. The next time Barry throws out a player, one of his teammates should go up to Barry and move him backwards. Guess who gets suspended for that?
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Aug 25, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
The player does. However, it is one thing to yell at the umpire, another thing to go jogging at him- the home plate umpire did not touch Ryan until he went charging toward Barry. While touching Howard may not have been right, I do not see him getting punished.
Ryan is allowed to move towards an umpire. Remember the George Brett pine tar incident? He literally charged at the umpire and was only ejected, not suspended.
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Aug 25, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The home plate umpire never touched Howard – I think it was the second base ump. The home plate ump just got told “Don’t f*****g talk to me” twice by Howard.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I read his lips as “Don’t try to stop me”, as In, I’m going to walk over and discuss this in a very loud manner 3 inches from this idiot’s face, don’t prevent me from pursuing this matter, or something to that effect.
It wasn’t Gibson that was restraining Ryan. It was Holbrook. Howard yelled at Gibson not to try to stop him or talk to him while blowing right past him on his beeline towards Barry. The 2B umpire was the guy that eventually was physically restraining Ryan, and that was Holbrook last night.
I did mention it earlier, and I agree with you. A rule is a rule as I said before, however I would be perfectly fine with the MLB just sending out a memo or casually warning the guy that held Howard back as the circumstances for what he did were not, in my eyes anything to get worked up about. Should he have done it? Probably not but he certainly wasn’t instigating contact in the same sense that might happen when two guys are going toe to toe with each other.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
See, baseball can’t just act casually about it. Why? Because then they have to come down hard on Barry. Barry chose to ignore a situation in favor of simply instituting a call based on the exact lettering of a rule. Baseball should have to follow suit.
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Aug 25, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Doing some research, George Brett was not suspended for charging the umpire after the Pine Tar Incident.
So there is precedence for Howard not being suspended on this one.
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
If you watch the Brett video, his reaction to being called out is much, much worse than what Howard did.
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Aug 25, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
LA
LA was spot on last night. I hope we’ll see the Phils use last night as their motivation to win the next two games and beyond.
Because making the playoffs and winning the world series wasn’t motivation again?
THe moment the event happened, I knew comments like this would spring up.
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps I should clarify:
Certainly, making the playoffs and the WS are and should be their primary motivation right now. What I was trying to convey was that with the batting situation as it is right now, perhaps this game will force the lineup to ‘sharpen up’, so we don’t see another 6 weeks of poor run support.
by BigLumber55 on Aug 25, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
The lineup isn’t failing because they aren’t sharp or trying hard enough—more likely you’ve got two major pieces just getting off of the DL attempting to get their timing back in the midst of a pennant race and pushing themselves. This has been happening all year with guys underperforming or missing due to injury and there’s be a boatload of bad luck with RISP and BABIP.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
Right. And really, the offense hasn’t even been doing that badly. Yeah it’s had a bad week, but that’s a really small sample size. It’s been quite good for the month of August as a whole.
Of course, increased motivation is generally a good thing, and is unlikely to hurt, so I’m all for that. It’s just that it isn’t really fair to use a lack of motivation as an explanation for past struggles, which are probably mainly caused by luck and random variance, to the extent that they even exist.
Yeah, I still knew comments like this were coming and I still find it a ludicrous tenet, I always do
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Deafening boos? Thunderous boos? They’ll have to invent a new word for the boos that rain down?
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
Definitely. I’m thinking about taking my little bro with me tonight. Get some cheap seats and be happy with them or something of that ilk. Then I’ll fight my phone to be able to post on here. Mobile sbnation isn’t friendly to my phone.
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Aug 25, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Good thing there’s nothing with batteries being distributed…ever again.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
lol… however, I do not think that will protect the umpires from being pelted tonight… ever get the feeling that the Philly fans are about to do something that will make them look bad again?
No, but then again, the reputation stuff is a tad overblown and it really can happen anywhere you have fans that actually care about what’s going on in the field and take things a little too personally/too far.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
I might be working the game. If so, I’ll likely be on or around the concourse for the introductions.
Clearly he just doesn't like guys named Ryan
Braun and Spilborghs better watch themselves next time Barry’s crew is umpiring one of their games.
"I don’t think I’ve ever heard a louder chorus of boos than when the Dodgers made the third out of the ninth. It was awesome.." - Aubrey Huff
Don’t forget Ludwick – oh, wait, isn’t he on the Padres right now.
by phillyinportland on Aug 29, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Philly Post Article
Missanelli has been railing on umps all week—wants them replaced by robots as well:
http://blogs.phillymag.com/the_philly_post/2010/08/25/i-hate-umpires/
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
I’d prefer Missaenlli be replaced by a gibbon
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
On a positive side note
Not that he seems like a guy who really cares about individual accolades but another strong start by Halladay and he should solidify himself as the front-runner for the CYA. A win ties him with Wainright and Jiminez at 17 while leading the league (assuming he has his normal start) in IP, ERA and Ks…
also he did a great thing to thank his teammates for the perfect game. this guy is almost too good to be true as a player and person!
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20100825_Phillies_Extra.html
That’s pretty awesome that he did that…those watches aren’t cheap.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
Some key points regarding umpires...
“You are the only official representative of baseball on the ball field. It is often a trying position which requires the exercise of much patience and good judgment, but do not forget that the first essential in working out of a bad situation is to keep your own temper and self-control.”
“Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.”
Based on the code, I think you can pretty fairly state that Barry failed as an umpire in this situation.
If it’s ryan howard I respect his ability to realize that he might get his ass whooped and avoid it – yes :)
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Lineup is Out
Per Matt Gelb:
Rollins SS
Victorino CF
Polanco 3B
Utley 2B
Werth RF
Sweeney 1B
Francisco LF
Ruiz C
Halladay P.
Also per Gelb, no word on Ryan being suspended. So far looks like this is just a rest day (not surprising considering recent events).
In other baseball news:
Braves 10, Rockies 1, 1 out in the third.
Reds 4, Giants 0, 1 out in the second.
Until we know what Joe Morgan thinks of these events, I’m not sure how to feel about em
by SportingFanaticism on Aug 25, 2010 5:22 PM EDT reply actions
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