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Even If Jimmy Rollins Will Be Vastly Overpaid in the Last Year of His Next Contract, That Alone Isn't a Good Enough Reason to Let Him Walk

So here's a brief thought experiment. Pretend you're the general manager of a major league baseball team. And pretend one of your star players is still productive but past his peak. Let's say he reaches free agency. And let's say you have a secret crystal ball in your desk drawer that reveals that over the next three years, this player will decline. In fact, the crystal ball tells you the precise WARs that he will post each year: 5.0, 2.5, and 0.5. Let's say that you do not expect to have any clear-cut sub-market options at his position over the next three years. And let's say the fair market value of 1 WAR is about $5 million. And let's say we're living in an inflation-less universe.

Let's say the player's agent calls you up one day and tells you that his client is demanding a three-year deal worth $35 million. Should you give it to him?

For the benefit of those of you who aren't big on rhetorical questions, the answer is yes, you should. The player will produce 8.0 WAR over his contract. Those 8.0 WAR will be worth $40 million. If you have no choice but to fill the position through free agency, then $35 million is a good deal.

But what about the final year of his contract? Won't you be paying through the nose for a player who isn't very good anymore? Well, first of all, you have no way of knowing that right now. The only things you know about this player's contract demand are the total salary and the average salary, not the salary for each year. For all you know, the deal could be structured so that it pays $24 in the first year, $10 in the second, and $1 in the third.

But why would you even care about how it's structured anyway? If, instead of structuring it as suggested above, you just pay this guy $11.67 million in each of the three years, then you can just take the money you saved in the first year, stick it in a two-year CD at your local Citizens Bank, wait for it to mature, and finally use it for your "overpayment" in the third year. What difference would it make? (And mind you, that's in an inflation-free world. On Planet Earth, we have inflation most of the time, perhaps even more so in MLB than in normal sectors of the economy.)

Now, obviously, this doesn't mean that the final year's salary doesn't matter. Of course it matters. If the player demands a three-year deal with the final year's salary pushing its total value to $45 million, then you shouldn't give it to him. But that isn't because he would be drastically overpaid in the last year of his deal. It's because he would be overpaid in total.

Lately, I've been seeing way too many people make the following bad argument for why Jimmy Rollins shouldn't be re-signed: (1) Jimmy's old and declining. (2) He'll probably get a four-year deal somewhere, worth an average of $X million per year. (3) By the time he gets to his fourth year, he'll probably be shot. (4) So whoever signs him will really regret it when they find themselves paying him $X in Year Four. (5) Therefore, the Phillies should abandon the idea of re-signing Rollins and instead give a shorter contract to Rafael Furcal or Alex Gonzalez.

That argument has a lot of problems even apart from the one I'm focusing on. For one thing, while Jimmy's certainly declining (aren't we all), he isn't that old. For another, just because he'll be old doesn't mean he'll be shot in Year Four of a hypothetical deal. "Shot" is fine as a worst-case scenario, but you're not supposed to conduct contract negotiations based solely on worst-case scenarios. You do it based on expected values, and whatever you think a reasonable expected value of a Rollins Year Four might be, I'm pretty confident it isn't zero.

But the main problem with the argument is the one already articulated above. I completely agree that Rollins probably won't be worth $15 million (or whatever the average salary in his new contract will be) in the year 2015 - at least not if 1 WAR still costs only $5 million then, which it very well may not. But if you're specifically pointing to that issue as a key basis for your argument, then you're not evaluating the situation properly. The value of the final year is only relevant insofar as it impacts the value of all the years put together.

As a final aside, I would observe that when Cliff Lee signed a contract one year ago that will pay him $25 million in 2015 when he's 36 going on 37, nobody complained about it, even though there's a pretty fair chance that he'll be more overpaid that year than Rollins will be. That's because everyone understands intuitively - at least when they want to understand it - that just because a contract overpays you at the end doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad contract. Everyone knows that contracts that underpay players at the beginning and overpay players at the end are the norm, not the exception, and therefore, over the long run, it all evens out. But too many people can't seem to apply that intuition to the present Rollins situation, which is very frustrating. It sure looks to me like there are a good number of folks out there in media-land who began their thought processes by deciding, for whatever reason, that they were going to be on Team "Let Jimmy Walk" and are now straining post hoc for rationales to justify that stance.

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Rafael Furcal is 33 years old turning 34 in a few days. Alex Gonzalez is 34 years old turning 35 in February. Jimmy Rollins is 32 years old turning 33 years old in November.

Yeah.

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 22, 2011 1:09 AM EDT reply actions  

In fairness, the writer who proposed those alternatives was operating on the assumption that you could get those guys to sign for fewer years than Jimmy. Of course, if that’s the case, then there’s probably a reason for that. Like maybe the fact that (a) Gonzalez sucks, and (b) Furcal is a bigger injury risk than Rollins and has a greater chance of sucking in the future than Rollins does.

Signing a guy for fewer years, in and of itself, provides no advantage if those years are less productive or if the replacement will decline sooner. If there was some reason to believe that there was a market inefficiency that made Rollins overvalued relative to the other guys (not just pricier than them), then things would be different. But no such reason was given.

by taco pal on Oct 22, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you sign them Furcal to 2 years or Alex Gonzalez to 1 year at the end of those deals they are the same age as Jimmy after 3 years. The only thing those two save you may be in money, but as you said Furcal is too much the risk and Rollins is far better than Alex Gonzalez. So really, the best value for the Phillies is Rollins, even if it is a year longer than what Furcal or Gonzalez might sign for.

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 22, 2011 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Furcal

I wonder if being on a team that wins the world series during a contract year increases the market value of players. I don’t have any data to back that up, but my gut tells me some sort of (although unjustified) “winning the World Series” premium is placed on them. I’ve read that in college basketbal,l players that are in the final four drastically shoot up team’s draft boards in the NBA draft. If something similar happens for baseball free agents, I would think Furcal would have more demand on the open market in length and per year than Rollins would have.

by BrandonB on Oct 24, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Edgar Renteria got a $2.1 million contract for 2011 after putting up relatively pedestrian numbers in limited at-bats, but he also got that shiny trophy for blasting a 3-run bomb off Lee in Game 5 of the World Series.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Oct 24, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Totally agree. A good showing in the WS by Furcal would raise his value. However, I don’t think even an epic performance would make him likely to get more years/ money than Rollins- he is still an older, less talented, more injury prone player, so while his price may go up, just as Renteria’s did, it is highly unlikely to me that he would leapfrog Rollins.

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 24, 2011 12:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think the NBA daft is different, in that draftees are fairly unknown commodities and the extra opportunities to see them against good competition is what raises their stock the most. I don’t think it’s because they’re a winner, as much as it is that they performed against top teams and not just second tier teams.

by Cormican on Oct 24, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Motion to change name of blog to “The Good Thought Experiment”.

by FuquaManuel on Oct 22, 2011 1:24 AM EDT reply actions  

The Good Phought Experiment

by phatj on Oct 22, 2011 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, first of all, you have no way of knowing that right now.

And here’s where it kind of veers into denial.

by Jay on Oct 22, 2011 1:37 AM EDT reply actions  

It certainly appears to me that you didn’t understand what that sentence was even referring to in its context. The point that I was making there isn’t controversial.

I’ll probably disagree with you even after you get it, but let’s at least disagree based on what I meant.

by taco pal on Oct 22, 2011 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough.

Moving on to a more salient point, I would suggest that most bad free agent deals start to look bad right around year two, so that’s a decent benchmark. Free agent deals are bad values almost by definition, the real question is just how bad and how soon.

by Jay on Oct 22, 2011 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with your general point that the overall contract cost and risk are the real issues. But it’s basically disingenuous to suggest that we don’t have a pretty good idea what the value will look like in the final year. We have good projection methods and good data to use in them. We know most contracts are backloaded — if not in terms of pure dollars, nonetheless in terms of cost per marginal value. We don’t have “no way of knowing” those things, we have lots of ways of knowing.

by Jay on Oct 22, 2011 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

All I’m saying is that just knowing the average value of a contract doesn’t mean you know how much the last year is going to cost, which is just a fact. Anyway, the only reason why I even got into that was to set up the next point, which is that it doesn’t matter.

by taco pal on Oct 22, 2011 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think we would agree that the last year of the deal is likely to be the worst year almost by definition, when you’re dealing with almost any free agent.

Here’s an exercise you might find interesting to apply to this situation. When Sabathia signed his big contract for 2009, I took the total amount ($161 million) and redistributed it over the seven years of the deal, based on his PECOTA projections for the following several seasons. So instead of seven years of exactly $23 million, it looked like this:

2009 – $29.0 million
2010 – $30.7 million
2011 – $26.3 million
2012 – $23.0 million
2013 – $19.2 million
2014 – $18.2 million
2015 – $14.5 million

(I didn’t bother to factor in the time value of money in shifting funds around, but the effect would not be huge.)

The relevance, as you probably will get right away, is that it puts the true cost where it belongs proportionately, not where the contract’s payment schedule (fairly arbitrarily) puts it. This method says, if you have to overpay a guy for one or two extra years to get him to sign, you’re doing it because of his excess value in the early years, not because he’ll be worth it in the out years.

So grab some Rollins projections and see how it comes out.

by Jay on Oct 22, 2011 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that seems worthwhile. Somebody run the numbers.

by taco pal on Oct 22, 2011 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

A starter is supposed to produce at least ~2 WAR. If a player were projected to produce less than that it isn’t clear if it is worth it to run him out there every day to produce his 0.5 WAR so it perhaps isn’t right to include that in his contract WAR total. In a similar vein, I think the marginal WAR in excess of 2/season are much more valuable than the first 2 A player that produces 5, 2.5, (0.5) is much more valuable than one who produces 2.5, 2.5, 2.5 even though both come out to 7.5 WAR.

by pretzalz on Oct 22, 2011 2:31 AM EDT reply actions  

J Roll’s opening bid was five years. He’ll probably go for a three year deal. But what if his bargaining spot is four years? Would it be worth paying more per year for three years to avoid the fourth year?

It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.

by Dr. Steve on Oct 22, 2011 3:06 AM EDT reply actions  

No.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 22, 2011 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would say maybe, maybe not. It just depends.

by taco pal on Oct 22, 2011 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps three years with a vesting option for a fourth?

by ThinMountainAir on Oct 22, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly, I highly doubt Jimmy will end up with a 3 year contract. I think its easily going to be at least 4 years.

I don’t know why people automatically assume that he’ll get 3 years, seems like wishful thinking to me.

by philiafan14364 on Oct 22, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Totally agree- I think the Phillies would be lucky if he was willing to take three with an option (player OR vesting- I don’t see him going for team).

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

You should let Rollins walk..

If there was a younger, better alternative who was obtainable at the same or better marginal value…And that would be……wait for it….still thinking….

Paying big bucks to Rollins is a risk, no question…he may begin to decline rapidly next year, shortstop being a position that quickly reflects a decline in range and speed. But the better bet is that a three year contact will be viewed as good value, giving the Phils time to groom a successor..Of course, our wunderkind GM will probably fool us all and sign Furcal to a five year contract

"I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." Groucho Marx

by BenDerDonDat on Oct 22, 2011 7:53 AM EDT reply actions  

This made me laugh harder than it should have.

by essman on Oct 22, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Barf… please no. I can deal with Furcal on a short deal (not happily, because I would much prefer Rollins), but a long deal- ewwww.

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only thing in this post I disagree with is this bit:

If the player demands a three-year deal with the final year’s salary pushing its total value to $45 million, then you shouldn’t give it to him. But that isn’t because he would be drastically overpaid in the last year of his deal. It’s because he would be overpaid in total.

In fact, I think given the circumstances (no better options, have to go through FA), that it’s ok to overpay Rollins in total. I wouldn’t want to go too much higher than this, but an overpay wouldn’t be terrible here.

by yolacrary on Oct 22, 2011 8:17 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree to an extent- 45 million is a lot of overpay, though, if we are to assume that the player’s value is $36m. I am not sure what Rollins’s value looks like on the open market (and in some ways I shudder to think about it), but 25% is a lot- at what point does it no longer make sense.

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was trying to find Rollins projections at Baseball Prospectus…. best I could come up with is what looks like projected VORP, which doesn’t look too bad going forward. (BPro’s player pages are not as helpful as I’m guessing they think they are.)

but the main reason I bring this up is that I noticed that their FRAA metric does not rate Rollins’ defense well at all, and really never has. He scored above average this year, and in 2008, but well below in most other years and for his career. I don’t know what to make of this. There’s been a lot of talk there of revising their defense metrics, and Colin Wyers, of course, is outspoken about his problems with the other systems (because of the garbage in, garbage out data problems), and his arguments have made sense. So I’m inclined to take him seriously. But I also don’t know if the FRAA listed represents his changes, since BPro’s been really horrible about updating stuff.

by yolacrary on Oct 22, 2011 8:33 AM EDT reply actions  

I wonder why it does not like his defense. Then again, as crap as defensive metrics are (i have yet to see a consistently good one), I trust a lot more of what I see with my eyes and non-stat opinions.

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are only three scenarios in which I can envision us NOT resigning Rollins:

1. Ruben decides he wants Reyes at any cost.
2. We trade Dom Brown, Jesse Biddle, Vance Worley and Justin DeFratus for Logan Morrison and Hanley Ramirez.
3. The Giants come out of the gate with a 5 year/75MM guaranteed offer for Jimmy.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 22, 2011 10:31 AM EDT reply actions  

You actually think number 2 would eve happen?

I actually think number 3 is the most likely.

Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.

That is all.

by EREX21 on Oct 22, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, but its an example of the KIND of trade for a SS that would have to happen for Jimmy to not end up here.

Ruben will make some kind of splash. I think its more likely you see something like Brown and Polanco for David Wright though.

But I don’t think Ruben will go to 5 years for Rollins, and I think thats the biggest stumbling block. Does Jimmy stay here for 1 less year, or take the money and run?

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 22, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that’s the million-dollar question (no pun intended). We don’t know what he wants.

On the other hand, the Ruben Amaro Special is a one year too many deal, so who knows. He’d better not trade Dom and Polanco for Wright, though…I would love to have Wright on the team, but not if it means giving up our best prospect under 25…

by Airedale260 on Oct 22, 2011 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree… not to mention that I still see big things in Brown’s future, and I would really prefer to not see them in a blue and orange uniform.

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Puke… please Ruben, leave the few prospects that the Phillies have left alone.

The real question is this- given Hanley’s work ethic and injury issues, would Ruben even be interested in him? Further, even if he is interested- is Hanley going to be able to continue to play short stop- I have heard reports that he has put on some weight and is getting a little big for the position.

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

You do understand that the basic laws of physics work differently for the RAJ Space Coaster.


I haz some prospects left.

by j reed on Oct 23, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

hehehe- that is rich (and scary)

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

1. Ruben decides he wants Reyes at any cost.

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Please, O Mighty Baseba’al, do not let this come to pass. Reyes is going to get so overpaid in his next contract.

by ThinMountainAir on Oct 22, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt it. Ruben’s going to be under pressure from the owners to keep from overpaying due to the Phillies butting up against the luxury tax. Not to mention Reyes is going to be demanding a five-year deal and is a major injury risk anyway, so I don’t think it would fly.

by Airedale260 on Oct 22, 2011 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Everyone keeps saying that but if you look at the commitments RIGHT NOW, even if you give Hamels 17MM this season, and Pence 10MM, you’re sitting at about 125MM in payroll for everything but closer, SS, bench and bullpen.
(assuming you don’t bring Oswalt back)

sign a closer at 10mm per, you’re at 135mm
bring back Francisco, Martinez, use Brown/mayberry in LF, and Kratz at backup C another bat for 1.5mm per and thats 6mm more, so 141mm

Contreras and the closer are 2 spots in the Pen. Herndon, Stutes, Bastardo, and two of the AAA guys are about 3MM thats 144MM

Ruben could sign Reyes at 20mm per and still be less than last year payroll wise.

Its not that far fetched, financially, especially when you consider that we have the makings of a very cost controlled bullpen over the next few seasons, and two outfielders in Brown/Mayberry, under control cheap, along with a 5th starter (Worley)

The money ain’t the problem.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 23, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

But I thinks its more likely you see them try their damndest to resign Jimmy at about 13MM per, for four years, and take the other 7mm (and maybe a little more) and spend it on a 1B/3B/LF type.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 23, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am really hoping for this. For all of his talent, Reyes is so injury prone that overpaying for him risks being an even bigger blow up than most (very high risk/high reward).

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but we also got 7 million from the Astros in the Oswalt trade, so even if the Phillies ownership pays the same amount to the players this year as we did last year, payroll will go down.

by philiafan14364 on Oct 23, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was 165,000 last year including the 7mm for Oswalt from houston.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 23, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Totally agree.

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know that Jroll will get 5/75, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if someone like the Giants offers at least a 4 year deal that Jimmy will likely take.

by philiafan14364 on Oct 22, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can see it now. Jimmy signs with, say, the Giants, says “Yeah, I think we’re the team to beat,” and then has an MVP year.

by essman on Oct 22, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds like a fricken nightmare.

What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.

by doubleh on Oct 22, 2011 2:15 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions  

But one that I could totally see occurring- I am really hoping that if he does leave Philadelphia that he goes to an AL team- that way his ability to cause nightmares is contained.

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could certainly see a team giving him 4/60. That might be too much for the Phils…

by uspsuperman on Oct 23, 2011 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

At that cost would you like to see them go after Reyes?

"Learning to eat soup with a knife"

by h2o_34_35_44 on Oct 23, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can we take Stanton over Morrison? Not because I necessarily think he’s better (which he probably is), I would just prefer to not have Morrison and Ramirez in the same clubhouse. Also, I’d rather keep Jesse Biddle.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Oct 23, 2011 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could live with a 4-5 year contract for Jimmy as long as the Phillies get younger everywhere else. Can Galvis play 2B?

by Domonate on Oct 22, 2011 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Chase Utley is even more valuable to the team than Rollins is. Galvis’ bat would be an astronomical dropoff from Utley’s, and he probably wouldn’t even be an improvement defensively given Utley’s ability with the glove.

Seriously, replacing Utley should be on no one’s mind at this point in time.

by Rujasu on Oct 22, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think he’s ready, but you may as well shift Galvis to third if you want him on the field. Even with the knee concerns, there is no reason to try and replace Utley.

by Airedale260 on Oct 22, 2011 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

With Polanco in the final year of his contract, should the Phillies consider giving Galvis reps at third base to see whether he could play there in ’13, or is his bat insufficient for the position?

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not yet. No.

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 23, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why wouldn’t you do it next year? Polanco would be in the last year of his contract, and of Rollins is signed to a relatively long term contract (3-4 years), wouldn’t it make sense to find out over the course of next season whether Galvis can play there so that they know whether they have an in house replacement for Polanco when his contract is up? Or is your contention that Galvis is going to need more than one more year in the minors?

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 24, 2011 12:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Galvis is more valuable a SS prospect than he is at 3rd. The offensive bar is higher at 3rd, and I doubt he can clear it. You’d be better off signing Rollins for 3 plus an option and moving him to 3rd, if Galvis turns out to be good enough to play every day.

Besides in ‘13 they may be able to sign someone like Brandon Inge to a one year deal. Like Polanco, he’s old, glove first and has positional flexibility. Unlike Polly, he’s borderline incompetent with the bat, but at that point in his career, he may be willing to sign for 1 or 2 years for a few million, if he gets a chance at a ring. He was exceptionally awful this year, but I’m only using him as an example of someone who could fill the gap for a year or two until Martinez, Franco, Greene, or whomever is ready to play.

Or two years from now Amaro trades Worley, Garner, Martinez and Claypool for Elvis Andrus and screw it, I don’t care who plays third then.

by Cormican on Oct 24, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

IMO

They’d be better off trying Rollins at 3rd.

by Cormican on Oct 23, 2011 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

How does Galvis compare defensively with Rollins?

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 24, 2011 4:04 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions  

He’s most likely better, he’s 10 years younger. I’m not sure I’d trust comparing any Defensive metrics from Minors to majors, but scouting reports and fans rave about Galvis’ glove.

by Cormican on Oct 24, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

/Lidge’d

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 22, 2011 10:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Ah wrong thread so sorry!

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 22, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Ryan Howard hadn’t gone down the way he did, I would say it’s not too dangerous to the make-up of this team to let Rollins go (though I want him to stay). But like it or not, Rollins’ value can’t be tallied up only by his play on the field. He and Utley and Howard are the leaders of this team and have been for quite a while. There’s more than just the years and dollars to consider here. No matter who replaces Howard at 1B (and I still prefer Mayberry over going outside the organization), it’s still going to be a shake-up to not have the Big Piece there on Opening Day.

We’re already talking replacing Madson, Lidge, possibly/probably Oswalt, Ibanez, and probably another guy or two I’m blanking on. There will most likely be a short-term replacement for Ryan Howard.

The clubhouse doesn’t need any more shake-ups. Ruben needs to do everything he possibly can to get Jimmy Rollins back and get his successor primed and ready in Double and Triple-A over the next couple of years.

by Sisko on Oct 22, 2011 11:05 PM EDT reply actions  

I felt this way even with a healthy Ryan Howard (and I really do not think the organization should decision make for four years based on two months)- Rollins is a cornerstone of this team, and his value is much more than just what he is on the field.

As for the Mayberry versus bringing somebody in to play first, I think the problem here is that Mayberry can not play two places at once. If you have him at first base to start the season (and assuming that Amaro is serious about leaving Brown in AAA next year), you would have the options of a) Mayberry at first, Francisco in left; b) Mayberry in left, find a first baseman; c) Mayberry at first, re-sign Ibanez to platoon with Francisco/ find a left fielder. Ideally Howard makes a miracle recovery, but assuming that the medical miracle department is spent, what do you want to do?

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good players seem to come a dime a dozen nowadays, however, an excellent player like Jimmy Rollins are always going to be a hot commodity; he is very young, perhaps he can play more and not be done so early.

Halloween World

by barwickian on Oct 22, 2011 11:34 PM EDT reply actions  

You and I have very different interpretations of the age range that constitutes “very young”

by 88Lindros88 on Oct 23, 2011 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

He’s certainly not young, but he is certainly the Phillies best option for the next 3 years, especially when you consider the market this off-season.

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 23, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really feel like this is a spam comment.

by JoshuaR on Oct 23, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hello All

I’ve finally come out from under my rock.

We've come to bury Caesar, not praise him.

by VanceinmyPants on Oct 23, 2011 12:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Missed u

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Oct 23, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Welcome back!

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 23, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really think Rollins will get 4 years from someone, and definitely in excess of 10M a year. So 4/40 would be the floor in my opinion. But I could also see a team like the Giants giving him 4/60. At what point (years and dollars) do the Phillies have to bail out of the sweepstakes?

by uspsuperman on Oct 23, 2011 1:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Seriously, does every Cardinal batter whine to the ump.

by j reed on Oct 23, 2011 8:37 PM EDT reply actions  

I hope so. Give me all the reason I need to rag on them.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Oct 23, 2011 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

They get it from their manager. They’re worse than the Braves.

What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.

by doubleh on Oct 23, 2011 9:42 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions  

Following the leader the leader the leader, they’re following the leader where ever he may go.

This is my wife’s ringback tone…and it drives me up a fucking wall.

Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.

That is all.

by EREX21 on Oct 24, 2011 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

An now it is going through my head!!! Thank-you so much!

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 24, 2011 12:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

please send Rollins packing...

He’s overrated. Offensively he is on a continuous slide. He refuses to play the role of a lead off hitter, yet he won’t allow the phillies to fill that spot in the lineup or he’ll start crying. His attitude and approach at the plate has trickled down to the rest of the team. He is very undisciplined. It’s time to change the hitting culture of this team, and it starts with Rollins.

by rolo 9 on Oct 23, 2011 9:52 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions  

Alternatively, you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about, and you form all of your opinions by having WIP beam them directly into your brain.

by taco pal on Oct 23, 2011 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

i do not know why i am going to bother with this heap of idiocy
He’s overrated

No he is not.

Offensively he is on a continuous slide
2010 triple slash: .243/.320/.374 with a .317 wOBA and a 93 wRC+. In 2011, Rollins was .268/.338/.399 with a .329 wOBA and a 106 wRC+. That’s some continuous slide he is on. But Rollins is an aging player, if you are expecting 2007 from him again, you are never going to get it. But he is still producing and he is not on a “continuous slide” as you falsely believe. For in order to be a continuous slide, the slide, must, you know, be continuous. A continuous slide would not see Rollins improve in every offensive category from 2010 to 2011.
He refuses to play the role of a lead off hitter, yet he won’t allow the phillies to fill that spot in the lineup or he’ll start crying
Evidence? Proof? Any hit of some evidence containing some proof? No? This is just a warped belief in your mind to fit a narrative so you can loudly espouse an idiotic opinion all the while acting all mighty acting like you know everything when you really know next to jack shit? It’s the latter? That’s what I thought.
His attitude and approach at the plate has trickled down to the rest of the team
You’re going full moron on us here. Again, I will ask? Evidence? Proof? Any hint of evidence of proof? You are stating an opinion but treating it like a fact. That’s not gonna get it done here.
He is very undisciplined
If you want an undisciplined player, look up Jeff Francoeur. Over the course of his career, his walks have increased while his strikeouts have decreased. In 2011, he walked 9.2% of the time. If you want a comparison, Albert Pujols walked 9.4% of the time this season. Granted, that is by far a career low for Pujols, but the point is there. Anyway, Rollins’ career walk rate is 7.5%. In 2010, he walked 10.2% of the time and as mentioned above, he walked 9.2% of the time in 2011. Strikeouts, his career K rate is 11.4%, but in 2010 he K’d 8.1% of the time and in 2011 he K’d 9.4% of the time. What does that say?
It’s time to change the hitting culture of this team, and it starts with Rollins
A 102-win needs an entire change of culture? To say you are absolutely delusional would be an understatement.

And just so you don’t think I am pulling shit out of mid-air, here is Jimmy Rollins’s FanGraphs page. Learn a thing or two about what you are talking about before you spray your verbal diarrhea all over The Good Phight.. Trust me. It will do you good.

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 23, 2011 10:34 PM EDT reply actions  

aw fuck reply fail

Oh well. He’ll get the message anyway.

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 23, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

How much do you want to bet he is going to discount everything I wrote my reply in the wrong box?

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 23, 2011 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m pretty sure you weren’t changing his mind. He made an emotional argument, so I doubt facts would do much.

by Cormican on Oct 23, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes but half of my post was calling his post idiotic, and then I make a mistake. In the mind of a troll, that means all of my content is thereby not of quality because I made a posting mistake.

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 23, 2011 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Confuzzled. How does Francoeur’s walk rate increasing and strikeouts decreasing make him undisciplined?

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Oct 24, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

“his” doesn’t refer to Francoeur

by taco pal on Oct 24, 2011 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ah…it all makes sense now.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Oct 24, 2011 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wrong antecedent

for the pronoun “his.” His refers to Jimmy, not to Frenchie.

"My grandmom's favorite grandson, ask my grandmom" --Rone

by layout ultimate on Oct 24, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

He’s one of the least disciplined hitters in baseball. His career high for walks is 42 in a season where he played every game. That’s terrible. He’s not Yuniesky Betancourt, but he is close.

Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"

by Ed Van Chimp on Oct 24, 2011 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good catch. Yeah, that could certainly be clearer.

It should read, “If you want an undisciplined player, look up Jeff Francoeur. Over the course of Rollins’s career, his walks have increased while his strikeouts have decreased”

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 24, 2011 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you for setting me straight.

by rolo 9 on Oct 24, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

No problem buddy!

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Oct 25, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

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