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Could Kyle Kendrick Have Turned Into a Decent Pitcher Without Any of Us Noticing?

Does this look like a quality starter to you?

Yes this is a serious question. Bear with me while I elaborate.

So back on August 2, our friend KK made a start against the Rockies at Coors Field. This filled none of us with a sense of optimism. The Rockies, led by Jason Giambi, had humiliated Kendrick in Philadelphia on May 19 in one of the most unpleasant games of the season. And in general, Kendrick has been every thinking Phillies fan's favorite whipping boy for several years running. His successes have been mirages fueled by unsustainably low BABIPs. His failures have been excruciating to watch. His career strikeout rates have been terrible, and his ground ball rates have been unimpressive for someone who is reputed to be a ground ball pitcher.

But Kyle stunned all of us that night, throwing eight shutout innings. As WC wrote in his recap that night, "This wasn't even one of those lucky-good starts for Kendrick. The dude was flat-out dealing, striking out a career high seven Rockies batters and walking two, allowing four base hits and throwing 117 pitches." But at the same time, the longtime fans among us knew better than to get excited about it. Weird stuff happens in baseball, after all. Bud Smith once threw a no-hitter. Steve Jeltz once homered from both sides of the plate in the same game.

But then a funny thing happened: Kendrick continued to pitch well for the rest of the season. In August and September, he posted the following stats: 9 G, 5 GS, 35.1 IP, 31 H, 5 BB, 27 K. His rates? 1.27 BB/9, 6.88 K/9, 5.4 K/BB, 2.55 ERA, 3.74 xFIP. The league average xFIP in 2011 was around 3.8-3.9 or thereabouts, so Kendrick performed at an above-average level for two full months. WTF?

This was still no reason to get crazy, though, and nobody did. 35.1 IP is still a small sample. Even though this was a "real" hot streak (insofar as it wasn't fueled solely by batted ball luck or what have you), that didn't mean it was sustainable. Kyle Kendrick has pitched nearly 600 major league innings. He wasn't even seen as a particularly great prospect when he was in the minors. By now, he's a known quantity, right? There's no reason to think he's capable of change, is there?

Well... maybe there is? More after the jump.

Star-divide

It's not as if there's no precedent for a pitcher suddenly and unforeseeably improving in the middle of his career. To take an extreme example, Mike Scott was a pretty crappy pitcher for the Mets in the early '80s who averaged fewer than four strikeouts per nine innings pitched. He was so disposable that the Mets traded him to the Astros after the '82 season for equally crappy outfielder Danny Heep. He improved slightly in his first two seasons in Houston, but not by much.

And then in the following offseason, Scott worked out with famed pitching coach Roger Craig, who taught him how to throw a split-fingered fastball. Two years later, Scott struck out 10.0 K/9, posted a 2.22 ERA, and won the Cy Young Award. (He also allegedly learned how to scuff the ball around the same time, but that's neither here nor there.)

Scott's improvement was unforeseeable, but it wasn't inexplicable. When a pitcher learns a new pitch, all bets are off as far as predictions go. There's just no way to know how it's going to impact the pitcher's performance level in the future, because if he's throwing a different set of pitches, then the guy who posted his past stats basically no longer exists. Now obviously, Mike Scotts are not very common. That's because if there really was a pitch that could have made some pitcher much better, chances are that he would have discovered it sometime before reaching the majors. But you never know.

To be clear, Kyle Kendrick is not Mike Scott. He won't be winning a Cy Young Award in this dimension. (If he does, I'll walk to Pittsburgh.) But even so, the point is this: if KK's improvement at the end of the year coincided with a change in his pitch repertoire, then that might indicate that his performance wasn't a fluke. It might be a sign that the improvement was genuine.

As it turns out, Kendrick did not learn any all-new pitches this year, as far as I can tell. But he may have done the next best thing - revamping his approach. Check out this log of his 15 starts in 2011. (I'm not including his relief appearances because I think that would be mixing apples and oranges.)

Date Opponent IP H ER K/BB Sinkers (FT) Changeups Cutters (CT)
May 7 Braves 5.0 2 0 3/1 52 (75.4%) 12 (17.4%) 5 (7.2%)
May 19 Rockies 3.0 7 5 2/1 29 (39.7%) 24 (32.9%) 20 (27.4%)
Jun 4 @ Pirates 5.0 8 4 0/0 45 (59.2%) 18 (23.4%) 13 (17.1%)
Jun 9 Cubs 3.0 2 0 2/0 26 (54.5%) 6 (13.6%) 12 (27.3%)
Jun 15 Marlins 7.0 5 1 5/1 38 (43.2%) 13 (14.8%) 37 (42.0%)
Jul 1 @ Blue Jays 7.0 8 6 5/1 54 (58.1%) 17 (18.3%) 22 (17.2%)
Jul 6 @ Marlins 5.0 7 1 2/2 48 (59.3%) 2 (2.5%) 31 (38.3%)
Jul 17 @ Mets 7.0 6 1 0/3 71 (65.1%) 10 (9.2%) 28 (25.7%)
Jul 23 Padres 5.2 6 3 1/2 55 (60.0%) 9 (9.8%) 28 (30.4%)
Jul 28 Giants 6.1 6 3 4/2 42 (41.2%) 21 (20.6%) 39 (38.2%)
Aug 2 @ Rockies 8.0 4 0 7/2 39 (33.3%) 4 (3.4%) 74 (63.2%)
Aug 19 @ Nationals 6.0 5 2 4/1 45 (48.9%) 15 (16.3%) 32 (34.5%)
Aug 24 Mets 4.0 7 2 1/1 37 (45.7%) 12 (14.8%) 32 (39.5%)
Sep 15 Marlins 5.0 2 1 6/0 39 (50.0%) 6 (7.7%) 33 (42.3%)
Sep 20 Nationals 6.0 4 0 4/0 38 (48.1%) 6 (7.6%) 35 (44.3%)

You could aggregate the stats this way:

FT > 1/2 CT < 1/3 FT% CH% CT% IP ER BB (Per-9) K (Per-9)
First 9 Starts 7 times 7 times 57.7 15.3 27.0 47.2 21 11 (2.08) 20 (3.78)
Last 6 Starts 0 times 0 times 43.7 11.7 44.6 35.1 8 6 (1.53) 26 (6.62)

That sure looks like correlation to me, sports fans. It doesn't prove anything conclusively, given the small sample sizes. But it's reason for hope. Maybe the secret to KK's success is that he just needs to use his cutter more and his sinker less! Maybe if he just keeps on doing that, he'll be a decent (above-average?!?) major league starting pitcher. I know, pigs are flying!

That raises another question. For the sake of argument, let's say the numbers above really do mean something and aren't purely coincidental. Then, did Kyle become more effective just because he started throwing more cutters? Or did he start throwing more cutters because his cutter became more effective? I don't know how to answer that question, but I think this is suggestive:

Date Opponent Avg Speed Max Speed Avg H-Break Avg V-Break
May 7 Braves 87.74 88.4 -2.81 5.58
May 19 Rockies 86.32 88.4 -1.76 6.34
Jun 4 @ Pirates 86.71 88.3 +0.34 3.86
Jun 9 Cubs 87.58 88.9 -1.02 5.98
Jun 15 Marlins 87.28 89.0 -1.31 6.36
Jul 1 @ Blue Jays 85.31 90.3 -1.52 4.57
Jul 6 @ Marlins 86.21 89.5 +1.44 4.77
Jul 17 @ Mets 87.04 89.3 +0.15 4.93
Jul 23 Padres 85.40 89.0 -0.36 4.58
Jul 28 Giants 85.92 89.2 -0.31 4.49
Aug 2 @ Rockies 87.08 90.3 -0.15 4.72
Aug 19 @ Nationals 86.33 89.5 +1.35 3.52
Aug 24 Mets 86.06 88.5 -0.69 4.90
Sep 15 Marlins 85.50 87.5 -0.26 4.22
Sep 20 Nationals 86.65 89.0 +0.10 5.35

I don't know enough about cutters to say what a good H-Break or V-Break is, but just from eyeballing those numbers, it sure looks like Kendrick started throwing his cutter more frequently right around the same time it started breaking less. Below is a pictorial illustration. The chart on the left is from the July 1 game against the Blue Jays (17.2% CT). The chart on the right is from the final game of the year against the Nationals (44.3% CT).

(Courtesy Fangraphs - FC means the same thing as CT)

So, I'm going to surmise that cutters (or at least Kendrick's cutters) work better when they break less, and that this explains why he threw more of them toward the end of the year.

This isn't necessarily the best news. If Kendrick's cutter had been effective all along and if the only problem had been that he wasn't using it enough, then continuing his success with it would be entirely within his and Chooch's control. But that doesn't appear to have been the case. Instead, his cutter needed to get better to allow him to use it more often. In which case, who's to say that its effectiveness won't desert him in the future? Still, it does seem like it was pretty consistent over that two-month stretch - it's not like it was coming and going every other game. Maybe he figured it out.

I'm as surprised to see this as anyone. Just the other day, I indicated in a comment that I was rooting for the Phils to nontender Kendrick. But perhaps that was hasty. There are five starters ahead of him on the depth chart and a sixth starter is only worth so much money given its limited importance. But a good sixth starter is at least worth more than a bad sixth starter, and if Kendrick can actually be the former rather than the latter, then hey, maybe it wouldn't be such a terrible thing to kick a couple million his way. I wouldn't say I'm totally persuaded yet, but I'm in the process of reconsidering.

As a final note, if these numbers are for real, then I've got to give Kyle some credit. Based on hearing him talk in interviews (not to mention watching him pitch), I've never really thought of him as being a very bright guy. Maybe he's brighter than I gave him credit for. This isn't the first time he's adjusted his pitching approach in his career. In his first two seasons in the big leagues (PitchFx link), he threw about 70% four-seam fastballs and 20% crappy sliders. When he returned from the minors in 2010, he had ditched both pitches in favor of the two-seamer and the cutter (not to mention a crappy change-up). His recent shift in his relative usage of those pitches looks like a further step in an ongoing tweaking process. That may or may not suggest that he knows what he's doing out there, but at the very least, I think it clearly suggests that he's open-minded, conscientious, and committed to improving. If so, good for him - not every pitcher can say the same.

Comment 144 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Ack! I didn’t mean to publish this yet. The site just went all haywire for a minute. Oh well, too late now.

So I don’t have a very sophisticated understanding of how to read PitchFx. If any of you do, I’d encourage you to go back and look through Kendrick’s game charts from the season and see if you notice anything else.

by taco pal on Oct 26, 2011 5:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Clearly you didn’t mean to post it yet. You left it in a state of editing that says Kyle Kendrick may be a good pitcher. You clearly meant to revise it.

Moyer for 5th Starter in 2012.

by Missing Jamie Moyer on Oct 26, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I KNEW IT!!

I sure hope he can keep it up. For a guy who works as hard as he does and who has some of the best pitchers in the game to learn from, you’d think he’d eventually be able to put it together.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Oct 26, 2011 5:26 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Fascinating

I wonder if an effective Kendrick would become grist for the trading mill instead.

"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez

by Jose and the Contrarians on Oct 26, 2011 5:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Laffed at your title, but TGP did notice.

I was wondering what size animal it needed to be to not be a pitch. - Roy Oswalt

by SandPhlea on Oct 26, 2011 6:03 PM EDT reply actions  

2012 Predictions

1. Kyle Kendrick wins NL Cy Young
2. taco pal seen walking muttering expletives under breath on I-76W.

by ajay on Oct 26, 2011 6:13 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Loved your title. First laugh I had all week. Ready for publication or not it raises some interesting points.

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."

by Borg_Queen on Oct 26, 2011 6:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Kyle should be in the rotation.

by Easedel on Oct 26, 2011 7:13 PM EDT reply actions  

instead of who? I don’t think you could make the case that he’s better than anyone in the rotation right now. Blanton maybe, Worley perhaps, but I would still take those two over Kendrick.

Everything's more important with bunting.

by Veni Vidi Vici on Oct 26, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Lil Roy goes elsewhere, and depending on Blanton’s elbow and Vanimal’s regression (or lack there of), KK could be a starter.

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."

by Borg_Queen on Oct 26, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought Blanton was a FA this year.

"Learning to eat soup with a knife"

by h2o_34_35_44 on Oct 27, 2011 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

how?

He’s been in the bigs since 2007.

"Who's Been Eatin' Hummus" DJAX

Im not JIBTA.

by howard is better than pujols on Oct 27, 2011 1:50 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions  

Nm I never read stuff properly

"Who's Been Eatin' Hummus" DJAX

Im not JIBTA.

by howard is better than pujols on Oct 27, 2011 1:51 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions  

To me, those graphs at the bottom don’t necessarily mean that his cutter’s moving any less, just that its WAAAAY more consistent, which is pretty much huge.

The increase in reliability in the pitch could be the reason for the increase in use.

by philiafan14364 on Oct 26, 2011 7:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Actually, I think ALL of Kendrick’s pitches in that second graph look more consistent. Any idea what his walk rates were in those 6 starts as opposed to all his other starts this year? A lower walk rate might be another indication of better consistency.

Maybe he tweaked something in his delivery.

by philiafan14364 on Oct 26, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

And if I had actually read the article instead of skimming, I would have seen that his walk rate did decrease by .5 per 9, so maybe he has turned a corner.

by philiafan14364 on Oct 26, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those graphs are just to illustrate two exemplar games. If you look at the table right above the graphs, it clearly shows a big difference in average H-break. The pitches did also get more consistent though.

After thinking about it some more, perhaps the best explanation here isn’t break or consistency, but the fact that the cutter: (1) now moves very differently from his other pitches, instead of only slightly differently, and (2) sometimes breaks slightly to the left and sometimes breaks slightly to the right. I’d think this would mean that the batters now have much less of an idea of where any given pitch is going.

by taco pal on Oct 26, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would have to add that although last season KK followed Doc around like a puppy in spring training, don’t think we saw any real difference in the pitches he threw (didn’t really look this up so anyone can prove me wrong). Maybe this year he tried to be more “Doc Like” and felt more comfortable throwing the cutter so both catchers called for it more. Alas so totally unscientific for a Borg Queen

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."

by Borg_Queen on Oct 26, 2011 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

You mention Chooch, but didn’t in fact Kendrick pitch primarily to Schneider? Isn’t Schneider also credited with noticing something useful in Worley’s two-seamer and thus calling it a lot? I’m wondering if something similar might have happened here.

by yolacrary on Oct 26, 2011 8:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Of those last six starts, Chooch caught three, Schneider caught two, and Kratz caught one. Schneider did catch the cutter-happy Rockies game, though.

by taco pal on Oct 26, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

interesting; I don’t know how I missed that… I possibly could have looked it up.

by yolacrary on Oct 26, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can’t wait to see Taco Pal walk to Pittsburgh.

Everything's more important with bunting.

by Veni Vidi Vici on Oct 26, 2011 9:48 PM EDT reply actions  

we could raise money, like a walk-a-thon in grade school.

How's your wife and my kids?

by BudVugger on Oct 26, 2011 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Would this hold up if Taco is again (almost) traded to the Mets blog? Thankfully he failed the physical last year.

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."

by Borg_Queen on Oct 26, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good Article TP!!

Thought provoking analysis. I know it is a small sample size, but I would like to see him be on to something, and would not mind the Phillies bringing him back next year.

"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."

by dannijd on Oct 26, 2011 10:43 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions  

How you doing dannijd?

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."

by Borg_Queen on Oct 26, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Together, you and I are going to make the greatest single contribution to science since the creation of fire.


From that fateful day when stinking bits of Kendrick first crawled from the sea and shouted to the cold stars, “I am hurler”, our greatest dread has always been the knowledge of his x-FIP. But tonight, we shall hurl the catcher’s mitt of science into the frightful face of his line drive rate of death itself. Tonight, we shall ascend into Baseball Heaven. We shall mock Dave Duncan. We shall command the cutters, and penetrate into the very womb of impervious sinkerball herself. My poor-man’s Aaron Cook – he’s alive!

by j reed on Oct 26, 2011 10:48 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Sorta like Buckaroo Banzi

Where else do you have a rock star-neurosurgeon-speed freak and just all around cool guy? Where are we going???? Planet 10. When do we get there? Real soon. Probably no one will get this. :-( BTW very cool pic.

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."

by Borg_Queen on Oct 26, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

The man’s been through solid matter, for crying out loud. Who knows what’s happened to his brain? Maybe it’s scrambled his molecules. All I’m saying is, Mr. President, let’s not panic.

by j reed on Oct 26, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interestingly though, reed, Kendrick’s improvement at the end of the year coincided with him being less like Cook, not more. Check this out:

First 9 starts: 32.5% FB, 19.4% LD, 48.1% GB
Last 6 starts: 41.1% FB, 19.6% LD, 39.3% GB

It looks like he stopped trying to throw grounders, and made up for it with more strikeouts (plus slightly improved control).

by taco pal on Oct 26, 2011 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is he more like Halladay?

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."

by Borg_Queen on Oct 26, 2011 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't mean to say KK like Doc ....

Just saying that the increase in cutters may have been related to KK watching Doc pitch.

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."

by Borg_Queen on Oct 26, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Halladay is a ground ball pitcher, so throwing fewer grounders (the point of the comment you replied to) doesn’t make him more like Halladay.

by taco pal on Oct 26, 2011 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Understand, although what I meant was maybe KK was throwing more cutters may as a result of watching Halladay pitch band made a decision to throw more cutters.

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."

by Borg_Queen on Oct 26, 2011 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no idea. Anything’s possible. All I know is that it doesn’t make sense to raise that point in a reply to a comment about Kendrick’s declining ground ball rate.

by taco pal on Oct 26, 2011 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sometimes the brain doesn’t fire because of obvious triggers, but something tangential. Don’t be so hung up on cause and effect.

by Cormican on Oct 27, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

What I meant to say was KK took Halladay’s lead and starting more cutters.

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."

by Borg_Queen on Oct 26, 2011 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Since we’re making Krazy Kendrick Komparisons. I’m thinking of a mediocre starter who then developed a great cutter and became one of the greatest bullpen pitchers of all time…..Kendrick could be the next……

Everything's more important with bunting.

by Veni Vidi Vici on Oct 27, 2011 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, the cutter seems to be a game changer if you can harness it.

Not that Kendrick throwing more cutters is going to morph him into anything close to Mo or Doc.

by philiafan14364 on Oct 27, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

That would be awesome. And unlikely. And awesome.

by Phrozen on Oct 27, 2011 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

damn. a dream deferred. though I’ll take this over PMAC (poor man’s aaron cook). That’s just what I always thought his ceiling would be.

by j reed on Oct 26, 2011 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

you know as long as the strike outs are there.

by j reed on Oct 26, 2011 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of GB% I’m curious to see if Blanton can maintain that awesome GB% rate he had this year before the injury.

by j reed on Oct 26, 2011 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would like to see Blanton return to health and be his usual self.

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."

by Borg_Queen on Oct 26, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Although I’d like to see his BABIP on 1st and 2nd pitch swings drop considerably. Apparently it was absurdly high in 2010 for a while.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Oct 27, 2011 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

interesting. frau blucher.
(it’s halloween. humor me)

by j reed on Oct 27, 2011 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah Halloween is coming. It’s Young Frankenstein. Frankenstein – Halloween. Halloween – Frankenstein…

by j reed on Oct 28, 2011 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I just want Blanton back…he almost became the forgotten man this year. Hopefully these injuries won’t be lingering and he’ll be formidable for the next few years. In short, me want cookies.

Everything's more important with bunting.

by Veni Vidi Vici on Oct 27, 2011 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

B is for Cookie

That’s good enough for meeeee.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Oct 27, 2011 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I’m willing to bet you did the exact same search I did (assuming you didn’t already have this image).

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Oct 27, 2011 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

That is such a great picture.

Swap out the Roydozer for Lee and you’ve got next year, unless Amaro does something shockingly predictable.

by Phrozen on Oct 27, 2011 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just a thought

I wonder if being in the bullpen could have lead to this. When you think about it he wasn’t heavily relied upon so that could have given him some free range to figure some things out. Started playing with a pitch or two and all of the sudden he has that warm and fuzzy when he sees Chooch lay down a sign. Almost like something in his head clicks and, his thought process becomes “I got this guy” instead of “O no”.

"Learning to eat soup with a knife"

by h2o_34_35_44 on Oct 27, 2011 8:05 AM EDT reply actions  

I do some competive shooting

And I have days when I hit the range and, I can’t miss shot groups the size of dimes. Than some times I get up fire my first 5 and am all over the place and the thought process becomes “O no”.

"Learning to eat soup with a knife"

by h2o_34_35_44 on Oct 27, 2011 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was going to critically analyze your first post, but this post has me rethinking the cost/benefits of such an exercise.

by Cormican on Oct 27, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are you worried about getting shot?

by Phrozen on Oct 27, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depends, whether it’s a good day or a bad day.

by Cormican on Oct 27, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do his numbers look like

when you go back to June 17th. It looks like that was the time with his H-Break really changed. Maybe he had figured it out then, but didn’t get a generous BABIP to generate results?

by jkrisch on Oct 27, 2011 9:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Looking at it, his approach changed two games after the H-break changed. Maybe it took two starts with the more consistent cutter before it started being called for more often?

by jkrisch on Oct 27, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Taking analysis out, the real world synopsis is basically that he started throwing more cutters with a little less break in the zone and missed bats, making it a more effective pitch where before he threw it it of the zone with mote break, but didn’t get many swings.

TP said it above somewhere but in essence he’s made his cutter and sinker look similar in a sense.

Batters aren’t guessing as much correctly

In turn, ill bet as well that while he’s thrown many fewer change ups he’s using it more as an out pitch now.

Gonna check some game log stats today when I have time.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 27, 2011 10:34 AM EDT reply actions  

I would put it differently, Joe. It’s not that he’s made his cutter and sinker look more similar. They always looked similar – the problem was that they also were similar. It seems like the adjustment he’s made is that they still look the same but now they’re different.

Incidentally: I didn’t know this until the other day, but even a “regular” four-seam fastball actually breaks up and in to a same-handed batter – that is to say, fastballs aren’t straight pitches. A cut fastball differs from a regular fastball, not because the cutter breaks but because it doesn’t break. It’s just that hitters are so accustomed to seeing regular fastballs break the way they do, that that kind of break looks straight to them. So a cut fastball that isn’t breaking looks like it is.

by taco pal on Oct 27, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

excellent comment. what you said and I’ll add that not only WERE they similar, the cutter was rarely, if ever, thrown in the zone for a strike. so when the ball came at the plate, in the zone, a batter KNEW it was dropping, not cutting.

Hello 500 foot Giambi bomb.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 27, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah there might be something to that

Date, Opponent – # of CT, # of strikes, % strikes, # of swings and misses

(Unfortunately, this doesn’t say how many of the swings-and-misses, or the fouls for that matter, were out of the zone.)

5/07 ATL – 5, 2, 40%, 0
5/19 COL – 20, 10, 50%, 1
6/04 PIT – 13, 5, 38%, 0
6/09 CHI – 12, 8, 67%, 1
6/15 FLA – 37, 22, 59%, 3
7/01 TOR – 22, 16, 72%, 3
7/06 FLA – 31, 17, 55%, 4
7/17 NYM – 28, 16, 57%, 2
7/23 SDP – 28, 17, 61%, 1
7/28 SFG – 39, 24, 62%, 2
8/02 COL – 74, 44, 59%, 5
8/19 WAS – 32, 24, 75%, 0
8/24 NYM – 32, 21, 66%, 2
9/15 FLA – 33, 23, 70%, 2
9/20 WAS – 35, 26, 74%, 1

by taco pal on Oct 27, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

The physics doesn’t match what you saying.

cutter grip.

by j reed on Oct 28, 2011 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

But cutters do break. They break away from a same-handed batter. That’s why it’s so effective at sawing off bats (the buzzsaw).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_(baseball)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1187105/1/index.htm
http://pitchingprofessor.com/article_advent_of_the_cutter.html

It breaks the opposite of a regular 4-seam fastball, but you can’t generally tell the difference between the two until they reach the plate.

by Phrozen on Oct 28, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Evidently, it only looks like it’s breaking. It’s not that the four-seamer breaks a little one way and the cutter breaks a little the other way. What actually happens is that the four-seamer breaks a lot one way, and the cutter hardly breaks at all. The break of the cutter is an optical illusion.

by taco pal on Oct 28, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate to say this, but, source?

As someone who’s stood in a batter’s box and stood on the mound*, I can’t reconcile what you’re saying with what I’ve seen. If it is an illusion, fine, but I can’t just take your word for it.

*I never threw the cutter.

by Phrozen on Oct 28, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

FC = “Fastball Cut” ?
FT = “Fastball Tailing” ?

What pitcher is this?

by Phrozen on Oct 28, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kendrick, read the post, Phro.

by Cormican on Oct 28, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

FT means “Fastball Two-Seam,” also known as a Sinker

In fairness, Mariano Rivera’s cutter actually does break a bit to his left, although not much. Roy Halladay’s cutter doesn’t break.

I’m talking about horizontal break here, obviously.

by taco pal on Oct 28, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right.

Fair enough, then. I would have sworn the cutter generally/always broke to the glove side. Illusions FTW.

by Phrozen on Oct 28, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe it starts out breaking to the right based on the pitcher’s fastball motion, and then the seams pick up the air currents causing it to break back to the left, which makes it end up with no net break? I dunno.

by taco pal on Oct 28, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, maybe Kendrick just threw a really SHITTY cutter up until June.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 28, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

That makes more sense. LOL.

by Phrozen on Oct 28, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

That actually makes sense.

by Phrozen on Oct 28, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is it different with lefties? Both Hamels and Lee appear to have actual break on their cut fastballs.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Oct 28, 2011 7:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

That’s probably cause they aren’t shitty cutters?

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 28, 2011 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

No! Again, a shitty cutter isn’t a cutter that fails to break, it’s a cutter that breaks the wrong way. Roy Halladay’s cutter doesn’t break. I’m pretty sure his cutter isn’t shitty.

by taco pal on Oct 28, 2011 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah yeah yeah….

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 29, 2011 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is it different with lefties? Both Hamels and Lee appear to have actual break on their cut fastballs.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Oct 28, 2011 7:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Oh sorry dude. That was an incomplete post.

by j reed on Oct 28, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

For some reason it posted when I closed the window last night. I thought it would just cancel if I just logged of the site. I didn’t really have the time to finish and figured to get back to it sometime today but it aint gonna happen. Maybe later this even or tomorrow.

by j reed on Oct 28, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

On May 2nd Kendrick threw the following pitches for swinging strikes:
1st: 1-0 changeup to Car-Go, 0-0 sinker to S. Smith.
2nd: 0-2 change up to Ianetta, 0-1 cutter to Dexter Fowler
3rd: 2-0 sinker, 2-1 change to S. Smith.

3 innings. 73 pitches. 17 batters. 6 missed bats.

He threw a total of 20 cutters that day. 10 for balls, and of those 10, 6 of them were first pitch balls.

the other 10 resulted in 6 foul balls, 1called strike, 1 swinging strike, a double a single and a deep fly ball.

That translates into really knowing what to do with that pitch, from the batters perspective.

ON August 2nd? 15 of his first 20 pitches in the 1st inning were Cutters.

7 were balls, BUT…. 4 were called stikes, one a swinging strike, that led to a ground out and a crucial strike out of Seth Smith with 2 on and 2 out.

He went Cutter (Called strike) 2 cutters for balls, Got him to swing at a change up and then caught him looking at the cutter again.

He only threw 3 sinkers that entire inning….

In the second inning he started mixing his sinker in…. 7 of them, 6 for strikes, and 4 of them called strikes….

Same deal the rest of the game, but something happened around the 5th or 6th inning in terms of location, or pitch selection because he started dealing the cutter more as the OUT PITCH.

The sinker started setting up the cutter. 6 of the seven K’s were off the cutter.

He did that the rest of the way, BTW. maybe besting the 8/2 game on 9/15 when he walked 0 and k’d 6 against Florida. basically made one bad pitch to Lo MO that day (a cutter, on a 9 pitch AB that he took deep). in that game he K’d 6, 4 on the cutter, 1 on a sinker, 1 on a change.

on the 20th, he went 6, walked 0 and K’d 4 no runs. 4 on the cutter, 1 on a sinker.

So basically, he’s turned his cutter into an out pitch, and he’s getting strike outs from it…

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 27, 2011 12:29 PM EDT reply actions  

so wow.

5 BB and 27 K’s from 8/2 to end of season.

If I counted right, 20 of those 27 were from the cutter.

If you look at the games on June 15th and on July 1st, too, same thing. both 7 inning outings, 1 walk and 5 K’s in each, and 7 of the 10 K’s were off the cutter.

Something happened with him and that pitch mid season, and by early August he figured it out?

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 27, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is kind of interesting because the cliche or the book or whatever you want to call it on Kendrick was that he “didn’t have a strikeout pitch.” Not saying that he has suddenly found it, but if that does happen then great.

Everything's more important with bunting.

by Veni Vidi Vici on Oct 27, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

And what all of this probably means is that well non tender him, and he’ll sign as someone’s 5th starter and be above average for the next 5 years.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 27, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

If that happens, do the Phillies get a compensatory draft pick?

Everything's more important with bunting.

by Veni Vidi Vici on Oct 27, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

i can’t imagine a non-tender. At worst, if the negotiations go bad, he’ll get traded.

And that’s even assuming RAJ doesn’t really want him (which may or may not be true).

Astaire and Rogers, G and Jagr
Hunter Pence did not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither did Carlos Beltran.

by Bud in TN on Oct 27, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

My joke on him had always been that the Phillies better hope he didn’t sign an autograph that day or he’d have already used up his 3 K’s for the day. Like TP said, I am also re-thinking my hopes they non-tender him.

by Cormican on Oct 27, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good piece

Any idea on what his splits vs LH bats were in his first 9 starts and his later 6 starts?

by MG77 on Oct 28, 2011 1:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Unfortunately, the only way I know of to calculate this is by tallying them up manually.

by taco pal on Oct 28, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is a way, but it’s a bit tricky. And it paints a hell of a picture.

Through July (which includes the first of the six better starts), Kendrick “held” lefties to .266/.372/.516, with 12Ks against 24BBs.
In August and September, Kendrick held (this time I mean it) lefties to .172/.232/.281, with 16Ks against 4BBs.

by Phrozen on Oct 28, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

So his career K/BB is like 1.97. But the rub has always been that he’s sucked against lefties. 0.93 against lefties, and about 3.5ish against righties.

That would mean he improved to 4.0 against lefties and 5.0 against righties.

Taco, ima laugh my ass off next season when Kendrick turns into your Raul.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 28, 2011 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Make that 7.0 K/BB against righties. Didn’t see that was just August.

So he didn’t walk a RHB in August or September.

Also, from the beginning of the season to August, he walked 20 LHB and only K’d 12? Is that possible?

Holy shit were really on to something here. It’s the cutter.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 28, 2011 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Holy shit were really on to something here

I’d love that as the new tag line.

by Cormican on Oct 28, 2011 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude, I’m having a hard time believing it myself

by taco pal on Oct 29, 2011 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s Hallowwen weekend, TP, come join me over on the dark side.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 29, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

kyle is aware of what's happening

From September 20:

Kendrick, a right-hander, has shown marked improvement against lefties this year. From the left side, opponents have hit just .226 (38-for-168) against him after they put up a .312 batting average (108-for-346) against him a year ago.

“My cutter into them has been great, the back-door cutter, too,” Kendrick said. “I start pounding them in and go back-door cutter. And the change-up has been good. [And] I’m getting ahead of them. Everyone knows I have a sinker; lefties knew that the first couple years. Now you have to pound them in and go away.”

http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-20/sports/mc-philliesnotebook-0920-20110920_1_nlds-roster-david-herndon-charlie-manuel

by taco pal on Oct 29, 2011 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Taken out of context, this quote is really funny.

I start pounding them in and go back-door… and I’m getting ahead of them. Everyone knows I have a sinker… Now you have to pound them in and go away.

by Phrozen on Oct 29, 2011 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m liking this more and more.

by Phrozen on Oct 29, 2011 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks

Dominance vs LH bats for KK. Never thought I would see that even if it was for a limited stretch.

Wonder if he can keep up anywhere near his performance vs. LH bats next year.

by MG77 on Oct 29, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

On average, how many starts should we expect the Phillies’ 6th starter to make in 2012?

If it’s around 16, and if you believe Kendrick will be able to keep up what he was doing at the end of 2011, then I suppose you could calculate the $ he’s worth paying as the value of a slightly above-average starter x 0.5.

If it’s more like 8 starts, then you’d take that number x 0.25

by taco pal on Oct 28, 2011 4:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Historically for the Phillies:

2011: 15
2010: 12
2009: 10 (caveat: Cliff Lee got 12 at #5, Meathead got 10 starts, Pedro got 9, CHoP got 7, Rodrigo Lopez and Tony Bastard each got 5)
2008: 13
2007: 11 (again, Lohse and Garcia each got 11 as the #6 and #7 starters, Durbin got 10 starts)
2006: 12 (Randy Wolf. Floyd had 11, Moyer and Mathieson each had 8)

I’d say that if Kendrick was the #6 starter, 15 wouldn’t be unreasonable for his starts, and it could be higher depending on injury situations. The only times it was below 12, there were apparent starter-by-committee situations.

Bob.

by The Dark on Oct 28, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks. OK, so let’s pretend that Kyle really has turned into a 3.75 xFIP pitcher. This season, the pitchers who stayed healthy all year and posted FIPs in the 3.70s all had fWARs ranging from 2.4-2.7 or so, which translates to a $ value of around $10M-$12M.

If Kyle can conservatively be expected to make 10-12 starts (about 1/3 of a season), then his “value” is around, let’s say, 1/3rd of $11M, or $3.7M. You could probably round up to $4M, since he’d also give you a small amount of value as a reliever whenever he isn’t starting.

by taco pal on Oct 29, 2011 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’d be comfortable with $4M for KK, maybe $7-8M over two years.

by Phrozen on Oct 29, 2011 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well that’s only if you believe the ~3.75 is for real. I’m getting there, but I’m not there yet.

Anyway, considering that KK is only in his second arb year and spent more than half of this season as a long reliever, you should be able to get him for far less than $4M. My point wasn’t that the Phils should actually give him that money, but that if his improvement is for real, they should be willing to give him what it actually will take to re-sign him without thinking twice because it will be a bargain. In fact, they should maybe think about giving him a long-term deal.

by taco pal on Oct 29, 2011 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kyle Kendrick is ahead of you.

by Romero on Oct 29, 2011 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m assuming you’re talking about a long term deal in 2013 and beyond, not this season. He’s got three more years of arbitration left. Unless you’re doing like 3 yrs 10mm or less why wouldn’t you go 1 year this season and see results first?

What does his arbitration project to? probably 2.8 to 3.3 mm?

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I’d rather see us tender Kendrick than resign Lidge to a 1 year 2-3mm deal.

specially when you don’t really know what you’re gonna get from Blanton, and I’m not sold on the Worleys gonna be a #3 type guy talk.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 29, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

He went through Arb this year, so he’d only have 2 left (2012 & 2013).

by Cormican on Oct 29, 2011 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, Joe is right – Kendrick was a Super Two, so he has four years of arb (unless that rule is changed).

by taco pal on Oct 30, 2011 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm, forgot about that.

by Cormican on Oct 30, 2011 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

All this is rendered moot after we sign Sabathia, which is totally whats gonna happen. Thanks Cliff Lee!

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Oct 31, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Which will then necessitate the trade of Lee to the Yankees for 3 middling prospects in an effort to clear cap space.

by Cormican on Oct 31, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Out of curiousity if the Phils don’t tender KK (and I think they absolutely will given Blanton’s elbow status and lack of MLB-ready starting pitching in the minors) what do you think he would get on the open market as a starter?

2 yr/$8-10M?

by MG77 on Oct 29, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t have the foggiest idea, tbh.

by taco pal on Oct 29, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

https://twitter.com/highcheese/status/131514334592499713

Swartz says 3.2, Murphy figures 5 for arbitration for Kendrick.

I got Swartz and the under.

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Nov 1, 2011 7:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Interesting. Edwin Jackson doesn’t seem like a very good comp to me though. He had been a full-time starter all season and got 13 Winz. Kendrick’s obviously been a full-time starter in the past, but he’s coming off a season when he made only 15 starts and got only 8 Winz.

On the other hand, in Murphy’s defense I vaguely recall him being on target with his arb estimates last year.

So like we discussed above, if the ~3.75 xFIP is for real, then KK would be worth about $11 mill as a full-time starter, but only $4 mill as a sixth starter on this team. If his arb number is really $5 mill, do you tender him? Normally I think you would, because even if you’re not getting the full benefit of the $11 mill, you can extract that value through a trade. But maybe no other teams see KK as a genuine 3.75 guy, and how will they ever be convinced otherwise if he’s going to be coming out of the pen here? It’s a difficult question. He would make a nice insurance policy though, and maybe a $1 mill overpay is a fair insurance premium.

But again, all of this only applies if you think his improvement is for real.

by taco pal on Nov 1, 2011 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

https://twitter.com/highcheese/status/131564717331324928

Swartz agrees with you and murph is still murph.

Getting fun!

25.8/106 "Winter is coming" -Eddard Stark

by Joecatz on Nov 1, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t overpay, but only because the budget will be tighter next year and that $1mm could be the difference between a quality utility guy and another season of Mini-Mart.

by Cormican on Nov 2, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Alright, but even so, that still leaves the other potential reason for signing him – getting an underpriced asset.

by taco pal on Nov 2, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not dead set against it, I’d just rather they didn’t spend $5mm on KK. If they do spend extra on him, that just means less flexibility elsewhere. Not if they signed him to a 2-3 year extension, I’d be pissed.

by Cormican on Nov 2, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, does that mean you think he hasn’t really improved? (Which would be fine – I haven’t made up my mind on that either or anything.) But if you do think he’s improved, then wouldn’t a 2-3 year extension be more likely to be a good value, not less? He’s much more likely to be a full-time starter in years 2 or 3 than he is in year 1, so you’d capture a lot more of his intrinsic value, whatever that is.

by taco pal on Nov 2, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

The extension has more to do with the availability of Hyatt, Rodriguez, Pettibone and possibly May or Wright. I just feel like 2-3 years from now, there would be younger, cheaper options who would likely provide similar WAR. Were I more confident the progress is real, an extension would be fine, as he might be tradeable. But, if he goes back to 4 K’s/game, then you’re stuck with a rather redundant and pricey middle reliever.

by Cormican on Nov 2, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right, but if you’re getting him for a price under his true value, then the potential availability of younger cheaper options doesn’t matter. He may not be as underpriced as those other guys, but as long he’s underpriced in absolute terms, then he’s fungible and it’s better to have him than not to have him.

Of course, that all just circles back to the question of what his true value really is. If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re just too doubtful that he’s become good, which is fair enough. All I’m saying is that if he’s become good, then that’s a strong argument for signing him, whether it’s for one year or multiple years. The one wrinkle, though, is what if he’s become good but there are no potential trading partners because no other teams recognize it?

by taco pal on Nov 2, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Partially. I have concerns about budget as players become older and contracts expand. As contracts to Howard, Lee and, presumable, Pence and Hamels, perhaps Reyes/Rollins, I worry that all the backloaded deals will come back to haunt the Phillies and I’d rather have money available for potential injury replacements/back-ups than tied into a back of the rotation starter. In a vacuum, I agree with you, but given the budget tied up in a few players, I’m more concerned. I suppose 2-3 years from now we have a cheaper Catcher (Valle), a cheaper SS (Galvis), a cheaper starter at some combo of 3, 4 and/or 5 in the rotation and maybe a cheaper 2B.

by Cormican on Nov 2, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, but again, the long-term budget can never be a reason not to sign a truly underpriced player. A truly underpriced player, even in an extreme worst-case scenario, can always at the very least be given away. So there’s no tradeoff between having him and keeping the long-term budget intact.

by taco pal on Nov 2, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trying to think of a parallel here. I wouldn’t want them to spend money to bring in, say, Brandon Phillips, because he’d be wasted here. But if you could get him for, say, $12 million/year, then I’d do it in a heartbeat. The potential waste is, I think, outweighed by the possibility that you could flip him for something good elsewhere.

by taco pal on Nov 2, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know that that is a 1 to 1 comp. Brandon Phillips is a fairly known quantity. A better comp may be our own John Mayberry, Jr. who may or may not be an improved hitter, and therefore may or may not be tradeable 2 or 3 years down the road

by Cormican on Nov 2, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but this is mixing up two questions here. #1 is “has he gotten better?” #2 is “if he has gotten better, what should we do?” I understand that #1 is still up for debate which obviously impacts the Phillies’ overall course of action. But here I’m just trying to answer #2.

by taco pal on Nov 2, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with #2, in theory.

by Cormican on Nov 2, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

This reminds me of an article I saw last year the day after the Phillies re-signed Cliff Lee called “Should the Phillies trade Cliff Lee?”

It made the (tounge-in-cheek, I think) point that since the Yankees were willing to pay more for Lee on the free agent market, the Phillies should trade him to the Yankees immediately, free up all the money from the contract, and raid the Yankee’s farm system.

by topherstarr on Nov 3, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

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