Phillies, Jonathan Papelbon Reach Agreement -- Four Years, Close to $50 Million - Source
by WholeCamels on Nov 11, 2011 2:42 PM EST
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Jim Salisbury has had this all along.
Salisbury of CSN Philly reports that the Phillies have agreed to terms with erstwhile Red Sox closer Jonathan Papelbon for a four year contract worth close to $50 million, pending a physical.
The deal comes in the wake of a bizarre week where the Phillies had purportedly all but signed their own closer, Ryan Madson, to a four year deal worth $44 million, only to see the deal quashed by Phillies ownership and upper management. Or maybe it never existed at all. Schrodinger's Contract? In any event, it depends on who you believe, but get ready for some Irish jigs for the next few seasons.
All this being said, Jonathan Papelbon is an excellent relief pitcher, and is coming off his second best strikeout/walk ratio (8.7) season in his career. For his career, Papelbon has a 2.33 ERA and has accumulated 509 strikeouts in 429 innings. That dog will hunt. And he's a few months younger than Ryan Madson, so there's that, too.
With the deal, presuming the new Collective Bargaining Agreement doesn't completely nuke draft pick compensation (a big assumption), the Phillies fill forfeit their first round pick (31st overall) to the Red Sox, but stand to gain at least one when Madson and/or Jimmy Rollins leave town.
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I’d rather have Bastardo for almost nothing.
I will always over-value prospects and over-hype rookies. I can't help it.
"Follow me, as I ogle at some gigglesome prospect statistics." -bobbykelly, Silver Seven SB Nation Senators blog
by LeepinLizardz on Nov 11, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 11 recs
LL meant as a closer. She’d rather have Bastardo has a closer for almost nothing. As would I.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Bastardo is young with a pretty bad injury history. I don’t blame the Phillies for not locking in on him.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
I meant in comparison to giving Papelbon this contract. Obviously, Madson, even at the rumored overpay, would have been the most palatable option.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Totally agree. Plus, there is some value to having Bastardo around to get some high leverage outs earlier in the game/ close on nights when the closer is unavailable. Every bullpen should have more than one high leverage go-to guy.
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Nov 11, 2011 7:35 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I would have rather had X and X
Follow Bleeding Green Nation on Twitter & Facebook. Did you get your copy of the 2011 Eagles Annual yet?
It's not that simple
Assuming that money is finite (a generally good assumption, although your mileage may vary) and that a team has a set budget that it will spend (as opposed to being willing to bust the budget for a certain player but only being willing to spend less total if that player is not in the mix), the question is not just whether Madson (who almost certainly would have been cheaper) is better than Papelbon, it is really whether Madson + the improvement that the difference in money could have made at other positions is better than Papelbon.
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Nov 11, 2011 8:52 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions 1 recs
That makes two of us- although I think I also would have preferred neither before this contract.
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Nov 11, 2011 7:33 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
:facepalm:
Diehard Flyers fan living in the heart of Penguins country
by Legion of Bullies on Nov 11, 2011 2:43 PM EST reply actions
Thats an awful about of money to spend, but frankly, I’m just happy its not 5 years or more, which I actually believe RAJ would give to him.
I can’t wait until Ruben break 100 million for a reliever
#SWAGGG
by secondroundpick on Nov 11, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
I thought the same thing looking at that pic. Haha…
"Fly Eagles fly..."
"Only the Lord saves more than Bernie..."
by 92-74-99-96 on Nov 16, 2011 6:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
so is he going to give us like free season tickets or something?
#SWAGGG
by secondroundpick on Nov 11, 2011 2:44 PM EST reply actions
Oh FFS srsly?
Moyer for 5th Starter in 2012.
by Missing Jamie Moyer on Nov 11, 2011 2:45 PM EST reply actions
4 years for a closer. $50M for a relief pitcher. I’m gonna cry.
Admittedly, Papelbon is a better relief pitcher than Madson, but this is one too many years and quite a few too many dollars.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
by Justin F. on Nov 11, 2011 2:45 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Don’t forget one too many first-round draft picks.
Moyer for 5th Starter in 2012.
by Missing Jamie Moyer on Nov 11, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
I guess. His career numbers are better in most categories. The other side of the argument is that Madson has been the more consistent one over the last several years.
Just out of curiosity- I know the change in leagues is said to make starting pitchers better- their ERA’s, etc. reduced by playing in the weaker National League. Does the same hold true for relief pitchers, who will see a pinch hitter instead of the pitcher?
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Nov 12, 2011 10:52 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Just guessing, I would say yes because the typical PH is much less potent than the typical DH, but the effect is much smaller because of the limited sample size?
by 88Lindros88 on Nov 12, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
There are also park factors to consider.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Should of kept Lidge!
/FanSince09’d
Diehard Flyers fan living in the heart of Penguins country
by Legion of Bullies on Nov 11, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
I normally read overthemonster as a sox fan
but I saw this. Honestly, I feel the same way about Pap as I do about Theo: you can have him. He’s good, but not worth that. And for clutch situations, watch out (see last game of 2011, 2010 entire season, 2009 later season and playoffs…).
"We're not going to give up," It doesn't happen, so who cares? There's always next year. It's not like it's the end of the world."-Manny Ramirez
WE DON’T WANT HIM
Please, take him back!
Its all about da []_[]
by philiafan14364 on Nov 11, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I’ll look at it this way, The Madson deal was better if the 5th year was a team option, the Papelbon deal is better if Madsons 5th year was a player option. Both ways its still way more then the needed to spend since the Phillies biggest near-future strength is their bullpen. Would have rather used that money on Rollins/Reyes.
So RAJ signs Pap and doesn't sign J-roll? All in favor....
(Silence).
This signing if combined with a non-J-roll signing will be a unifying force in TGP. But not in a good way.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009
RIOTS
I will always over-value prospects and over-hype rookies. I can't help it.
"Follow me, as I ogle at some gigglesome prospect statistics." -bobbykelly, Silver Seven SB Nation Senators blog
by LeepinLizardz on Nov 11, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
#OccupyTGP
Everything's more important with bunting.
by Veni Vidi Vici on Nov 11, 2011 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This has Brad Lidge written all over it…right down to the AAV.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
if he’s going to win us a WS, be perfect, and be shitty the year after, i don’t care
#SWAGGG
by secondroundpick on Nov 11, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
For that money, I’d rather it be Pap and not Madson, but that being said…
urg. Too much.
On the flip side, I, for some reason, have a Papelbon Sox jersey. What to do with it?
Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
If Amaro needed approval for Madson
At 4/$44 and couldn’t get it, how did he get it for Papelbon at 4/$50? I like Papelbon, but then I liked Madson, and I’m not sure I’m a big fan of either of them at that type of contract
He didn’t need approval. It was a ploy to know what it would take to get Madson done, although an underhanded one.
A ploy would be to sign Paps to 3/30, not argue there’s more money to be had if Madson holds out. WHY WHY WHY.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
The assumption is that there was a verbal if not a handshake agreement, which at the last moment Ruben had to ‘run by’ his superiors. Its possible, but its really the first time I’ve heard of Ruben dealing in any way other than aboveboard.
MLB Trade Rumors said that the League shot down the trade. Had something to do with the CBA, but I don’t remember what.
There’s a lot of possibilities here, and jumping to one conclusion with no input from the people involved is dangerous.
Ok… If the league shot it down because of the CBA, and the last I heard there still is not a new CBA in place, why is this deal ok?
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Nov 11, 2011 9:00 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I've been tracking my own projections of the Phillies budget
This signing leaves a likely $27,000,000 budget for the rest of the bench, SS and whatever Rubes wants to do for 6th starter. If Cuddyer gets signed, I believe that likely eliminates Reyes and Rollins from the SS conversation without longer backloaded deals.
Because 3 yrs, $39 million for Brad Lidge worked out so goddamn well!
Amaro is running a Ponzi scheme here. As long as his payroll keeps growing, the downside of moves like this can be mitigated by more spending. But the minute he can’t throw more money at problems the collapse will be spectacular.
The Good Phight, NotGraphs, Twitter, fun!
by FuquaManuel on Nov 11, 2011 3:00 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
He’s essentially a buyer in a seller’s market. I guess pro sports are like that in general, but Ruben is the one setting the fair market price (I’m sure lower-payroll teams are THRILLED with this). I feel like where we’re already at a point where we can’t afford to be doing that anymore because of poor planning.
I haven't died. Right now I'm drinking a beer and eating fried chicken. What were you expecting, a funeral?- Yao Ming
The real story on the Monty "approval"
“I have to check this out with the finance guy”
(Goes into office. Waits 5 minutes and makes small talk. Comes out).
“Sorry, can’t make that deal. But we can make that deal if you buy these options….”
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009
This may make TGP history. TP, FM, Cormican, LL, OC, and I (and everyone else for that matter) are in total agreement.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009
Add an e) option to your verbal question, Bud.
I will always over-value prospects and over-hype rookies. I can't help it.
"Follow me, as I ogle at some gigglesome prospect statistics." -bobbykelly, Silver Seven SB Nation Senators blog
by LeepinLizardz on Nov 11, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
I’m really not sure if even the wip crowd is gonna be for this one.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
He’s the “douche bag” from the Boston Red Sox. They will hate us. They will probably hate it for all the wrong reasons (Madson finally proved he had closer’s mentality, Papelbon blew it in the clutch against Baltimore the end of last season, etc.), but they’ll hate it.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
They will hate us.
It. Not us. They won’t hate us for this. Unless they moronically think we persuaded Amaro to make this signing. Then they will hate us.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
So whats the smug rating, it has to be pretty damn high since he basically agreed to TWO huge overpayments to relief pitchers
Guys??
…What about me?
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 3:04 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Who? Is that someone on the Phils?
/Future Fan since 2013 TGP post
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009
Where’s the money coming from? The money tree?
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Honestly, that’s what I thought about Madson.
I will always over-value prospects and over-hype rookies. I can't help it.
"Follow me, as I ogle at some gigglesome prospect statistics." -bobbykelly, Silver Seven SB Nation Senators blog
by LeepinLizardz on Nov 11, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
This reeks of Ruben not wanting to wait out negotiations with Madson. Now someone will get him for reasonable dollars, methinks, and RAJ is left looking like the “set the market” asshole once again.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Why must our GMs be the “set the market” types?
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
IDK, but it’s really only RAJ and Homer. The Eagles would never do this, at least not before this season (with Asomugha).
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
They didn’t set the market with Nnamdi. He took less money to come to the Eagles.
by PhilsForever on Nov 12, 2011 9:12 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Eagles waited out for Nnamdi (well, as much as you could wait out for a player given the lockout shortened off-season). They did not rush to him to set the market, nor did they overpay him.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Seriously. I want him gone.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
I’m ready to bid him a not so fond farewell.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
I’m so glad I’ve been riding this trade since the Pence deal. Change the blog heading to Fire Ruben Amaro Jr. Do it. You know you want too.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Shit, change the blog name to “Fire Ruben Amaro, Jr.” I’ll design the new logo.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
place fist here, bro
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Did we just become best friends?
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, and signature updated.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delunda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Fuckin’ glory.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
We addressed this. If I let informed opinions and research govern my life, why I’d think that somehow this was a bad deal when we’re just spending money on elite talent.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
So what, like 5 – 7 million for a bench bat now, right?
Baseball: the only sport whose commissioner wants you to think it is still 1960.
by phillies fan in bowie on Nov 11, 2011 3:09 PM EST reply actions
Why did Ruben prioritize a closer before shortstop?
#SWAGGG
by secondroundpick on Nov 11, 2011 3:12 PM EST reply actions
Lets be honest, most closers in baseball are crazy anyways.
But I wanna see him and Pence do stuff now haha
This one guy on Facebook
you guys are retarded, madson is not a legitimate closer like matt said, mid relief at best, did you see what closers didn’t do this passed season, we need an “actual” closer and papelbon is that, give him a chance, it’s not like we got anywhere last season with madson anyway, which in turn means we need another strong bat, who’s on the radar?
lets see, cuddyer, reyes, aramis ramirez, josh willingham, and livan hernandez can also hit
#SWAGGG
by secondroundpick on Nov 11, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
could include a vesting option making it upwards of $60m, according to Jayson Stark.
Derek Bodner
SBN Philly || LibertyBallers || DraftExpress
@derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
Vesting options are based on numbers being met in terms if IP, etc.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Silver lining: If injuries or ineffectiveness plague his time in Philly, at least we will be $10 million richer going into 2016.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Guys...
Am I the only one who remembers when we were absolutely definitely certainly positively gonna trade Brown et al for Pence? I mean, the writing was on the wall, in stone, handed down from the gods themselves. It was an absolute certainty.
And then it didn’t happen?
I’m just saying, let’s back away from the ledge until we know the particulars. Please?
That was never definite. It certainly wasn’t reported by Jim Salisbury, he only speculated about it.
This is ridiculous. We do know the particulars. And the particulars suck.
The Good Phight, NotGraphs, Twitter, fun!
50MM, 4 years. It’s not like there’s been any time in recent history that the Phillies signing a player has been reported and they end up signing for less than was reported.
by philsandthrills on Nov 11, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just saying, let’s back away from the ledge until we know the particulars. Please?
If that’s not your “point,” then please tell us what it was.
The Good Phight, NotGraphs, Twitter, fun!
The point is, it’s too early to be saying things like
RUBEN, STOP BLOWING UP THE TEAM!!
Fire Ruben now.
Dammit, Ruben, you total asshole
and so on. The deal hasn’t been announced yet on anything more formal than Twitter. It’s posted as “according to sources” and “sources say.” I used to be a reporter. I know what “sources” are. They’re often wrong.
If it turns out to be $50M over 4 years, then it’s a bad deal. What if it’s $40M for 4 years? $38M with incentives? $25M and six bulldozers?
The point is, WE DON’T FUCKING KNOW YET!!
$25M and six bulldozers?
That’s Oswalt’s contract.
by philsandthrills on Nov 11, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I can get behind that. Only if I get to drive one to his house, though.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
-
.
dork + gozer =
.
+ 
=
.
dozer + geek =
. + 
=
.
.
.
.
It’s becoming more apparent that Rube doesn’t understand the Gozer Calculus. He choose option 1. For a hefty price he only nets an earthmover, whereas the with other option he would have moved the earth and shook the heavens.
As livid as I am, I hope to God you’re right. If Ruben’s yanking our chain with these reports and uses them as a ploy to get Madson cheaper, I’m going to laugh my ass off for days.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
We sort of got into a bit of a frenzy about it, mostly out of fear, but If I remember correctly it was basically just Trollney and Heyman making shit up and not actually reporting.
by philsandthrills on Nov 11, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
no worries guys. it was announced Madson is switching to shortstop
by The Fish on Nov 11, 2011 3:22 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions 1 recs
Interesting typo.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009
Now we just need to trade Brown, Worley, May, and Biddle for Wright and sign him to a 7 year $120 million extension.
I’mma punch you through my laptop screen.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Be serious
Ruin Tomorrow would give up way more than that if you give him the chance
by Stephen Schmidt on Nov 11, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
"Ruin Tomorrow"
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Clever.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
I don't get this
then again I don’t get a few of Rubes transactions lately. This ain’t a video game…
Yes, it is. On his iPhone 4S.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
“Hey, it worked in Angry Birds….or was that MLB12?”
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
I have a (maybe) stupid question:
Why would you go out and spend $50mm on a closer for a team that has Halladay, Lee and Hamels in its rotation? I mean, how much work did Madson really get last year and is this really an area of serious need?
I’m just thinking of cost analysis vs. benefits. Maybe I’m talking out of school here.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Well, the entire notion of need a “closer” is retarded. But yes 50 million dollars for a reliever is even worse when you will likely lead the league in complete games.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 11, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
I see 17 relievers in the NL only who pitched more innings than Madson last year, and not all of them are closers. And none of them are paid 50 mil.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Just for the hell of it…
Papelbon pitched 64.1 innings last year. At $12.5 million/year, that’s $194,310 per IP.
If Cliff Lee was paid that per inning last year, he would have made over $45 million.
But how many of Lee’s innings were high leverage innings like the ninth?
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
But if you calculate it on a per pitch basis, it isn’t quite that bad, since Papelbon pitches way more pitches per inning than Lee.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
WC, I’m trying to find the comment where you first called this months ago, but it seems like the search function is kaput.
I remember being more trollish about it on Twitter, which of course has no search function.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
It does, but it only goes back a week.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
No, that was posted on the 97.5 page. I wouldn’t post a friend’s comment, but that stuff is public.
Just want to angry up the blood a little more!
Did you just make a Satchel Paige reference?
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delunda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
You are classier than the classiest Braves fan
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delunda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
You have succeed admirably. My co-workers are now cowering.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delunda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
I so hope the Phillies re-sign JRoll.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
It’s a message to fuck off asshole.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delunda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
In fairness, I was pleasantly surprised to find that most of the commenters disliked the signing, if perhaps not always for the right reasons.
He is a D-bag.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delunda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
CSNPhilly appears to be about the same. A majority of the commenters (myself included) appear to be against this.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Why can’t this be a cruel dream?
RAJ Delunda Est
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delunda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Well, to carry this past it’s logical conclusion…
Ruben is a Hebrew name meaning “son.”
So, Filio Delunda Est.
Does that factor into the 1st born sons of Amaro, or are Genesis rules off the table?
RAJ Delunda Est
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delunda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
It’s a perfect shame that SB doesn’t change sigs dynamically, otherwise I could make a perfectly clever “of course it is comrade, it always has been and always will be.” but alas.
RAJ Delenda Est
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
I suppose you could take it a bit further.
Junior is a legitimate word in latin as well, so depending on what you want to do with “Amaro,” you could have something like
Filio Amaro Iunio Delenda Est.
Yeah, but no one would understand that at a glance except for massive nerds like us and th-
Oh, I see.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Positives: Papelbon had a 1.58 SIERA last year. (lowest in MLB except for Sergio Romo, who was almost exclusively a ROOGY).
Negatives: Everything else?
by philsandthrills on Nov 11, 2011 3:56 PM EST reply actions
He’ll probably have a great year in 2012 and Ruben will smug it up all year long, never mind the future.
I often wonder if Ruben deals with things like a politician, figuring that in a few years if there is a problem it won’t be his.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
You can be a GM for life if you’re good, he can’t be that short sighted.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delunda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
He’s probably thinking if he wins 1 (or 2) WS’s, he gets a decade of leniency.
Which he may. Problem is, I don’t think he believes in the randomness of the playoffs like many here do.
Derek Bodner
SBN Philly || LibertyBallers || DraftExpress
@derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
by Derek Bodner on Nov 11, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Nor do I think he believes in the aging process, apparently.
Or relievers being over-valued.
Derek Bodner
SBN Philly || LibertyBallers || DraftExpress
@derekbodner || derek.bodner@draftexpress.com
by Derek Bodner on Nov 11, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
So what you’re saying is he doesn’t believe in reality.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delunda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Would it surprise you?
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
I mean, I hope he has a great 2012-2015. It’s not going to be worth his contract unless he pulls up around 200 saves in that time, but as long as he pitches like he’s pitched in the past (excluding 2010) and has no injury issues, it’s almost close.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Thank God for anti-depressants
In all seriousness, though, I don’t particularly like this deal, but if we can still lock up Hamels and Rollins/Reyes without killing ourselves I’ll deal.
Who knows, it may be Middleton or one of the other guys who did what they did with the Thome signing the first time around: “I’ll front the money for his contract, or at least most of it, to get him.” /wishful thinking.
Like most/all of us, I was especially hoping for Rollins to be signed, and today would have been an epically perfect day for it.
by Phrozen on Nov 11, 2011 4:04 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Right?
Also, rec’d.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Wealthier than you.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
first comment on here but ew
cmon rube your better then this deal, highest ever contract for a relief pitcher for papelbon? please get rollins for 3 years and you will be forgiven by me
How are you with holding grudges?
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Ware did this guy come from?
Okay, that was a poor attempt.
by philsandthrills on Nov 11, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
yeah im a cowboys fan
grew up in dallas became a cowboys fan, moved to philly and got phillies season tickets in 2002 since my dad is a fan and have been a fan every since and still have season tickets.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Force of habit. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I just can’t help myself.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Well, you get points for having a legitimate connection to the Cowboys, rather than jumping on the America’s Team Bullshitwagon, but yeah. The Cow’s suck.
cmon rube your better then this deal
Ryan Howard says “Hi!”
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
And Raul Ibanez.
And Brad Lidge.
And Placido Polanco.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Polly’s contract sucks if he can’t do anything this year.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Eh, they can cut him then. According to Fangraphs, they’ve already gotten $28 million of value out of him just from 2010 and 2011.
In two years Placido Polanco has already out-performed his entire 3-year contract. I have no problems with him at all. And if he can be serviceable at the plate while maintaining his high level of defense next season, there should not be any problems at all.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Excuse me while I go drink excessively.
No, I don’t give a fuck it’s only 4:17 PM.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Polanco certainly would be a major upgrade over Wilson Valdez, MIchael Martinez, and Pete Orr
/Ruben Amaro misplaced priorities FTL
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Middle of 2008 season, IIRC.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
howard has carried our offense for the last 4 years or so
with utleys injuries and jrolls decline.yeah everybodys down on him for his disappearance in the playoffs but i really have no problem with howards contract since our offense would be absolutely crippled without him… i guarantee our bullpen would hold its own without papelbon
The point is that for the same money they’re paying Howard, they could have gotten a better first baseman. And they could have gotten someone just as good as Howard for less money.
i disagree
i think tex’s contract with the yankees really set the price for 1b in that category which is very similair to howards contract and pujols/fielder’s contract will most likely raise that price
I don’t mean to be a dick, but you’re just flat out wrong if you disagree. Howard’s OPS + last year was 125, that certainly isn’t bad. But if he had just signed that contract Philly would be burning to the ground. He’s just not even close to worth the money.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 11, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
He really hasn't been all that great at the plate
3 of the last 4 seasons his wOBA has been lower than what John Mayberry put up this year. He’s certainly been above average offensively, but he’s hardly been an elite offensive first baseman.
by Stephen Schmidt on Nov 11, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Jumping right into the fire, ain't ya?
Where everyone’s extraordinarily pissed off.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
So maybe Cliff Lee can play SS and hit lead off on his non starting days? Guy’s an athlete after all.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
And re-sign Ryan Madson!
/All your closers belong to us!
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
But Utley hasn’t hit .300 since 2007 when his batting average was .332. And his fielding percentages at second base don’t compare to Valdez’s.
Valdez’s fielding percentage was .993 this season, fourth-best in the league. Last season, it was .993 as well. Utley, though, has never had a fielding percentage better than .985 (in 2007) since becoming the club’s everyday second baseman.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Beat me to it.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
People like her ruin all the good work women have done to try and change the “Get in the kitchen and make me dinner.” mentality.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
No words.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
I heard her on DNL last summer. I think the quote was “the dirty little secret nobody wants to talk about is that Wilson Valdez has a better fielding percentage than Chase Utley.”
I almost cried.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Wonder how the Occupy Wall Street movement
…feels about a $50 million dollar contract for this guy…They could have at least thrown in an investment banker or two.
If the choice was Madsen for $44 mill, or Papelbon for $50 mill, or door number 3, I would have chosen door number 3.
"I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." Groucho Marx
I find it hilarious how everyone is bitching over the team spending to get elite talent. Sure Ruben might not make the best decisions on the allocation of resources, but just the fact that these kinds of resources are available is pretty goddamn awesome.
Oh noez, someone isnt in FIRE RUBE mode… How about accepting that people have different points of view from you from time to time.
What I object to is you mischaracterizing the arguments of the people who disagree with you, then claiming you find it hilarious that people hold views that they do not hold. The problem isn’t that you are disagreeing with me, but that you are a liar.
I clearly conceded the main objection in my second sentence. Perhaps you should try reading my hole comment.
Which “hole” comment? I thought we were discussing differing viewpoints and allocation of resources.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
the Whole comment that agrees that Ruben doesn’t always maximize the dollars he’s given. I’m not going to lose sleep over it as long as they get the things they need to get done – done.
And what do you define as things they need to get done?
by philsandthrills on Nov 11, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
What’s he getting done? Guaranteeing us a World Series? That’s impossible. All he should be focused on is getting us to the playoffs, and letting the postseason luck run its course, and this team was capable of doing that without an overvalued Pence, and it’s capable of doing that without an overpaid Papelbon. He cannot keep spending money like this and expect to a) profit from it or b) sustain it. That money runs out eventually, and then we’re stuck with revoltingly backloaded contracts of older players that we can’t shed while other free agents are free to sign with whoever else has the money to offer. And if we’re sucking that farm system well dry, there’s going to be no one cheap to come up and fill those holes.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok so for a year or two we may have to sit on some fat underperforming contracts. I’ll take it for a near certainty of playoff baseball for extended periods of time. This is the Yankee Red Sox model, and I’m damn happy that we can do the same.
Name one Red Sox contract that was as wasteful as this one, ex ante.
The Yankees are a red herring. No other team is comparable to the Yankees, including the Red Sox.
Let's take a look at why that's stupid
2001 – Arizona Diamondbacks win the World Series
2002 – LA Angels win the World Series
2003 – Florida Marlins win the World Series
2004 – Boston Red Sox win the World Series
2005 – Chicago White Sox win the World Series
2006 – St. Louis Cardinals win the World Series
2007 – Boston Red Sox win the World Series
2008 – Philadelphia Phillies win the World Series
2009 – New York Yankees win the World Series
2010 – San Francisco Giants win the World Series
2011 – St. Louis Cardinals win the World Series
3 times, the ultra-market team won the World Series (I don’t really consider the 2008 Phillies a big market team). The rest were small-market teams that managed to capture lightning in a bottle for a season. You don’t buy World Series championships, unless you’re the ‘96-’00 Yankees. You build them with sound contracts and cost-effective players from your system. I’m pretty sure the AL All-Star team would still have lost to the Cardinals this year; it was just their year.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You can do that without luxury taxes and bad contracts. #Angels
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
You can, but its really really hard. Mistakes and bad contracts will happen when you have our kind of budget to throw around.
You feed into this argument that we must have a big budget because we have a big budget. Has it ever occurred to you that we’re already overspending? So much that we’re in violation of debt leveraging rules as it is?
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
Even if it is just the Phillies as a franchise, it is unwise to pursue further large expenditures that inflate this while not picking up additional revenue streams. Something’s gotta give.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, and we’re not all competing against the Yankees or the Red Sox for a playoff bid.
You are aware that there’s a separate league from them right? It’s called the National League. It’s been around for a while.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Did I ever use those words? Now who’s not reading posts properly…
It sounds to me like you’re arguing that the teams that playoff success correlates with spending, and that is blatantly untrue. Example: Tampa Bay. 3 playoff appearances in the last 4 years, with a miniscule payroll compared to the rest of the AL East.
Now look at the Cubs. Enormous payroll. How many playoff appearances and World Series wins has it warranted them since they won the 1908 World Series.
Postseason success is not indicative of spending more. The Yankees are the outlier here, not the rule.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
No, you’d be wrong about that. Payroll is very relevant to getting to the playoffs on a consistent basis. Rays are excellent at optimizing their assets, but how about them Pirates? As for the Cubs, check out scorecasting to explain why they are the lovable losers
It works for some teams, but not all. The Yankees and Red Sox just happen to be good at using their payroll as a cudgel against the other division teams. But successful baseball is not solely dependent on them or their payroll. I think you’ll find that outside the AL and NL East, payroll was indeterminate of who made the playoffs, much less who won the World Series.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
I consider that sentence to be more of an implicit recognition of guilt than something that actually succeeds in covering your ass.
I mean, you basically admitted your recognition that people are not upset about money being spent per se, but the fact that it’s being spent in such a suboptimal manner. So then, explain to us how this sentence is not a lie.
I find it hilarious how everyone is bitching over the team spending to get elite talent.
So if you’re offered a job with a great salary, but you’re bitching that the cafeteria sucks, I can’t tell you to get some perspective and stop bitching – since you just got a great job?
I wouldn’t be bitching “over” the great salary, would I? So the answer is no, you cannot say “I find it hilarious that you are bitching over your salary.” That would be dishonest. But you knew that.
Nice try at altering the wording of your statement though once you got caught. It was worth a try. Maybe nobody would have noticed!
I’m sure everyone else recognized it too. You’re probably the only person here who would put intellectual honesty in scare quotes.
Yeah god forbid we have a discussion about the topic instead of playing wordsmith and trying to poke holes in every post.
Oh, so it’s only a discussion when you’re not being called on your shit.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
Clearly that’s the case. At least I’m not retarded enough to argue we’re bitching about spending money.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Its called perspective. My post was to point out that there is more than just bitching about optimal spending, but also the fact there are assets to spend.
Just because you have money, or don’t in the Phillies case, doesn’t mean you have to spend it. You can plow that shit into international development and other useful things that isn’t Major League payroll.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
If they really didnt have money, you think we’d get this signing? Lets be realistic here, the Phils have money. One of their owners is a multi-billionaire. If he wants to overspend to get more rings before he dies, who are we to argue?
You’re not very slick, are you? Read:
http://articles.philly.com/2011-06-03/news/29617428_1_phillies-debt-service-rules-ruben-amaro
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Ask George W Bush lollololol
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
The Los Angeles Dodgers.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 11, 2011 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
You know, the team that 2 years before banruptcy gave Man Ram 40+ million dollars.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 11, 2011 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
What he said above me.
And besides, having lots of money is no excuse to be stupid with it.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not that he’s “spending to get elite talent.” It’s that he appears to be spending more than necessary to get talent. Seldom-used talent.
I’m not in “OMIGODWEREALLGONNADIEFIREROOBENNOWZ!” mode either, but I can admit that we’re buying a new Cadillac while the dishwasher leaks. PRIORITIES!
Lets wait and see what else is done before we decide that the team is going to have unfilled needs going into the season.
I’m not concerned about having unfilled needs going into the season. I’m concerned with the cost it’s going to take to fill those needs, whether it be jumping the luxury tax line or depleting the farm system even more.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
I have absolutely no qualms about exceeding the luxury tax. If they do it, why should we care. Same thing can be said about the farm system to a limited degree. It is a resource and can be replenished. We’re not the kind of team that has to rely on star aligning and the farm producing a bunch of cheap good players all at once to compete. We can survive just fine thanks to our big ass budget.
We should care about wasting resources, because even if we are still in good shape post-waste, we could have been in even better shape and are throwing that away for no good reason.
I find it hard to believe that you couldn’t figure that out yourself, but maybe you couldn’t.
Plenty of people don’t understand basic economic principles. The sheer mass of credit card debt and bankruptcies demonstrates that. Sure, some would happen anyway due to bad luck, but not nearly at the volume they do occur at. I get the feeling that if RAJ was some 9-to-5 schlub like most of us, he’d be up to the gills in interest payments and trying to figure out how to refinance his debt so he could trade in the two-year-old BMW for a brand new one.
Bob.
I get annoyed when people throw out Yankees as an example of a big budget, and then state we don’t need a farm. For all the Yankees’ big name, big money players who are way overpaid, they have a balance of homegrown talent who are far less expensive (Gardner, Cano, Hughes, Montero, Nova, etc.), same thing with Boston (Ellsbury, Pedroia, Buchholz, Bard, Lester).
The Phillies’ cheap, homegrown talent? Ruiz, Mayberry, Brown and half the bullpen.
I didn’t say they were going to have unfulfilled needs. I said they have more important needs.
Bastardo can close. He may not be as good as Madson or Papelbon, but he can do it. Who is going to be our SS? We need to sign an SS, unless you want to promote a kid who’s never been above AA.
If the money is still there to sign Rollins or whoever, great. But that should definitely take precedence over this move.
Like I said lets wait and see what happens. I’m actually much more against overpaying an aging and declining Rollins than an in-his-prime elite closer.
aging and declining Rollins
Name one player that is not aging. Then go look at Rollins stats and tell me how much of a decline you see from 2010 to this year.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 11, 2011 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
I almost made that joke.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 11, 2011 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
Jamie Moyer?
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
My big problem with this (and i would have had the same problem with a 4/44 for Madson.) is that signing ANY closer means that theres less money for veteran relievers.
Charlies gonna use his closer to close.
Contreras, Bastardo and Stutes will get some work, but really, is he gonna let the young guys prove themselves, or is he gonna let Halladay Hamels and Lee pitch the 7th and 8th when they don’t need to?
This isn’t about spending money on a reliever. its about spending ALL YOUR BULLPEN MONEY on one reliever.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
Sorry, I didn’t get that the first time. What’d you say?
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Who are you?
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Fantastic. Just in time for my Bostonian father-in-law to visit tomorrow. At least I can count on him not to rub it in. Much.
Is Ruben sitting somewhere right now thinking, “Next time keep a muzzle on your wife, Madson”?
Now hearing Papelbon won’t take physical till early next week. So his deal with Phillies won’t be finalized or officially announced til then
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
there’s a chance to snag Jamey Carroll from the Twins?
#SWAGGG
by secondroundpick on Nov 11, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
There is a chance that over the weekend Jonathan Papelbon has an unfortunate an encounter with a mysterious looking sasquatch.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Who happens to be wearing a red baseball cap.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
And reeks of fried meat with cheese.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
by doubleh on Nov 11, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's what I read...
“David Montgomery called Ruben Amaro and very calmly exclaimed “Are you fucking stupid?? There’s no way in hell I’m letting this deal go through!”
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but your basically praying for this guy to be Jerome Harrison or something.
Its all about da []_[]
by philiafan14364 on Nov 11, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
We’d find a way to spin it.
We saved his life! Go Phillies!
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 11, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
All the WIP type people I know are now clamoring over Cuddyer. It’s even weirder than the Pence obsession back in July.
I have such conflicting desires for this team to win the WS and for them to crash and burn to prove a point.
Obviously, I’d prefer a good Phillies team, but still…
Yeah, just don’t even say that.
The Phillies could sign Cody Ross for $1B and I’d still root for them.
I wish we could both win the WS have have Rube look like the idiot he is. Sadly I don’t see how that can happen.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 11, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
I Actually think this may not be that terrible...
From Fangraphs:
Madson was worth 7.6M last year (1.7 WAR)
Papel was worth 13.6M (3.0 WAR)
Papel at 50M over 4 years is 12.5 per year.
Madson at 6.6M per year would be 26M. He’s probably going to get much more than that. Right? If that’s the case then this deal is better than Madson. My whole argument of course is based on that 2011 was both of their true talent levels. Which is a big if.
I’m actually very curious about this.
\V/ for Villanova!
\V/ for Victory!
by dees ees en drama on Nov 11, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
I kinda agree
Yes the contract is for more money than I’d like but this doesn’t seem to be anything that would cripple them for the future. It’s sad to see Rubes continue to just buy the newest toy at sticker price but Paps is a good reliever and should do a fine job for the Phillies. $50 mil over 4 years isn’t an albatross.
I’m not sure about this, but I believe WAR for relievers is based in large part on leverage, which is fine in that it measures how much the reliever helped his team in that year. On the other hand, leverage is outside of the reliever’s control, and there isn’t much evidence, as far as I’m aware, that pitching well in high leverage (i.e. clutchness) is a skill. So, basically, if you had traded Papelbon for Madson last spring, and they pitched just as well in their new cities as they would have in their old cities, then Madson’s WAR would have been higher and Papelbon’s WAR would have been lower. Madson would have had more opportunities to pitch in high leverage situations since the 2011 Red Sox presumably had more of them than the 2011 Phillies did. And the reverse would be true of Papelbon.
I dont think that’s right. I’m pretty sure fangraphs WAR is entirely based off of FIP. I’m not seeing anything about leverage.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/war-and-relievers/
I mean, FIP is certainly the bulk of it, but it may not account for the entire difference. Papelbon had a better season than Madson DIPS-wise, but WAR is at the very least problematic here. There’s also the issue that Papelbon’s 2011 was way better than his 2009-10, whereas Madson’s 2011 was right in line with his 2009-10.
If I read that right they are assigning a static leverage index of 1.8 to each closer’s PA, so I dunno if leverage is that big of an issue. Yes Papelbon had problems in 09-10. I remember that he had some issues with arm fatigue in those years. If you look at those years, he did lose a little bit on his average fastball. 2011 he got it back to 95.0 and reverted back to pre-2009 form. I’m hoping the Phillies did their homework in this department, and knew what was going on in ’09-10.
That’s possible. The explanation seems a little opaque to me. Anyway, I think it would be nice to assume that the 2011 Papelbon alone is the “real” Papelbon and will stay that way for four years, but it’s on the level of wishful thinking right now.
It seems to me that Amaro used a very underhanded negoitating tactic to find out what it would take for Madson. Armed with that information, he got Papelbon at 50. Sorry guys, but Papel at 50 > Madson at 44
This implies that either aren’t gross overpays. The point isn’t to pay market value, it’s to get value.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
Probably, but it doesn’t matter since Papelbon at 4/44 still isn’t worth it.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
That is incorrect. The entire idea of ‘the closer’ is similarly overrated. There’s a lot of very cheap options that are effective and free up money for addressing other concerns.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Tell that to a mostly clueless fan base. The Phillies may not have HAD to sign a closer but they had to, if that makes any sense. I would’ve been comfortable giving the ball to Bastardo or a much cheaper available relief option. A closer’s role is vastly overstated and bears little effect on the success of the team (unless he’s as bad as Lidge in 2009).
“If you listen to the bums in the bleachers, soon you’ll be joining them.”
If the Phillies FO simply turned off WIP and ignored Philly.com, what are they going to do? Buy tickets and bring signs to the ballpark? Oh dear, that’ll tell the FO.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
And we made the WS with him, and if Charlie hadn’t been so adamant about using him we might have won.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 11, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
Fuck the clueless fan base.
Seriously. Fuck them. The ignorant jackwagons who think Brown is a bust before he’s had a real chance, that Rollins is a showboating overrated slacker, that Pence was the best hitter on the team, that Howard single-handedly lost us the ‘10 NLCS, that Utley isn’t as good as Valdez, that the offense sucked last year; that fan base? You want to “appease” them? Fuck that.
by Phrozen on Nov 11, 2011 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
This isn't the worst thing that could've happened....
The contract is way too large, especially considering the fact that the Phillies led the league in complete games. That being said, we did get one of the best closers (outside of Rivera). RAJ has seemingly made some moves to poison the team, but he does a good job at bringing in the big names. The same strategies have worked for Cashman for years and the Phillies money well is just about as deep these days. The focus of a team should always be to get to the playoffs (because anything can happen once you’re there).
With several potential options for closer in the future (assuming that Paplebon remains healthy and effective), he could be used as a pretty valuable trading chip. Unless Paplebon blows out his arm (but then there’s always the insurance money to cover his salary), this is nowhere near as bad as the Lidge deal (where we knew he was unreliable from year to year).
This money could’ve been better spent elsewhere (like on Rollins or Reyes) but we won’t be able to judge the deal completely until we know what the opening day roster is going to look like.
He struck gold in ‘98-’00. After that…not so much. The big names won regular season games for him alright, but the postseason was a different story. They managed to put it together in ’09, but beyond that, not much in the way of championships.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Playoffs? You want to talk about playoffs? We’re lucky if we can avoid getting scalped at the trade deadline!
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
We’re sittin here, I’m supposed to be a franchise player, and we’re in here talkin bout practice.
I will always over-value prospects and over-hype rookies. I can't help it.
"Follow me, as I ogle at some gigglesome prospect statistics." -bobbykelly, Silver Seven SB Nation Senators blog
by LeepinLizardz on Nov 13, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
I think you’re missing the point. Since 96, the Yankees have won more championships than most teams have in their entire history. If you keep getting a high quality team to the playoffs, you might only win 1 out of 5 seasons, but that’s a pretty good success rate for baseball.
Part of the point of bringing in high profile free agents too is to generate more revenue for the team. Sure, some of these contracts may not look so good from the outside but you have to consider the amount of revenue that they bring in. The Phillies aren’t going to run out of money anytime soon. They’re probably making far more than their payroll suggests.
Since 2000, the Yankees have won 1 WS despite having the highest payroll in baseball. Through the 1980s they also had high payrolls and did not succeed. The real point of success with the late Yankees dynasty was the marriage of high payroll with an excellent farm system, a lesson which has clearly been lost here.
The amount of money spent on Howard for example, will never justify itself. Merchandise sales are split 1/30, his is not a great value for his contract, et al. He does not by any means draw more money in then he is paid since winning itself is the draw, and he does not help that much compared to the money that is spent. It’s not about drawing in money so much as it’s generating value for the contracts you do sign. If you generate value, you will consistently be very profitable even if you’re not the best team in baseball.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The Yankees have, however, made the playoffs every year since 1995, except 2008. Their massive payroll is one of the primary reasons for that.
I make no attempt to deny that, but their massive payroll has become the monster that it is because they went away from their farm system more and more. You can do it either way, but the most effective way, especially for everyone who isn’t the Yankees, is a marriage of the two where one moves towards the middle.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
The main point is that regardless of what your payroll is, there’s no excuse not to make the most of it, or to at least come close. You can’t just be like “Hey we have a $175 million payroll, so that gives us $50 million to waste and we’ll still be on par with the other good teams!” If you spent wisely, you’d be better than the other good teams. If you’re already better than the other good teams, then you’d be better by a wider margin.
Unwise spending would be more along the lines of Ibanez and Lidge. The Paplebon contract is a monster for sure (and I wish they had just found a closer internally, no matter the quality of the options) but it didn’t cost them prospects and could turn out quite well. I’m not saying to like it, but I don’t think it’s as bad as a gaffe as some are making it out to be. We’ll just have to wait and see what happens between here and March.
I understand that, but its not a sure thing RAJ will offer arbitration. He SHOULD offer Madson arb, but he also should have offered Burrell arb when he left.
RAJ signed Papelbon before the arb offer period was up, making it a sure thing Papelbon gets arbitration (as he will absolutely decline it).
??
Why wouldn’t he offer madson arbitration? Madson made 4 mm or so last season. Even f he were to accept (which he won’t) he’ll get a substantially reduced salary than what he’s asking via FA for 1 season.
Someone would trade for him in a heartbeat.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
What does his last year’s salary have to do with it? It applied in Burrell’s case because they can’t reduce your salary more than 20%. Madson could be given a salary of what he was worth in free agency (on a one year deal). I was just commenting on RAJ’s history of NOT offering arbitration when it seemed to make sense to do so.
Burrell wasn’t a Type A FA. Madson is. That’s the biggest difference. Don’t forget, he offered arbitration to Werth last year. That’s a better comp than Burrell.
On the off chance Madson accepted arbitration, he’d be unlikely to get more than $8M or $9M.
Pat Burrell WAS a type A free agent. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/phillies-declin.html
I agree with you (especially on Ryan Howard’s contract). All that I’m trying to say is that the Yankees have been a successful team and they’ve done it because they’ve had the money to maintain it. Their farm system has been plundered plenty of times and they’re filled with bad contracts (but a lot of good ones too). I read an article awhile back about the Phillies draft strategies and farm development and how the team will be able to continue to pump out prospects to be traded every year. Whether that’s true is a different story and also doesn’t help considering they have the oldest team in baseball. There’s a fine balance to be crafted here and it’s difficult to tell just what effect the RAJ-era will have later down the line.
Basically, a high payroll doesn’t translate to certain success. Taking risks on the best players (and perhaps overpaying a little) and possibly getting burned later will translate to success as long as the ball keeps rolling (or you’re terribly unlucky). A farm system that is able to churn out a high quality player every two years or so is pretty important as well.
The Phillies don’t have much in the way of actual prospects in these days, only hopes of prospects. I can tell you what the effect of the RAJ-era will be unless we have several exceptional draft classes and a return of sanity: The Chicago Cubs.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn’t even thinking that when I wrote it. True story.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting point. The Cubs didn’t exactly do such a great job bringing in many good names though (just vastly overpriced ones). The Phillies scouting department has done their job and many of the once highly ranked prospects we’ve traded are starting to seem like busts. They’ve held onto Brown (which makes me hopeful he’ll eventually breakout). If Brown becomes a big commodity, he or Pence could be traded away for prospects to restock the system. That’s why it’s important to develop guys to replace your aging veterans.
Don’t be too hard on the Phillies farm system though. While it may not have produced any exceptional talent, there are a lot of pitchers that have come through the system who have reached the big leagues in the past three years.
D’Arnud, Gose, Cosart, Singleton, etc. would disagree. The Phillies have traded away serious talent and no one trade will ever recoup that, especially after the fire sale that was the Pence trade. Hunter Pence isn’t that great at baseball, and even if traded will not recoup even half his value especially with a GM such as RAJ who seems to hate his farm system.
We’ve had precisely 1 decent starting pitcher (Worley), 1 excellent relief arm (Bastardo), and a mixed bag of back end-4A guys. We’re not the Braves over here. We have good pitching depth in the system, but it’s not MLB ready and will not be for at least another season.
I am hard on the farm system because it is a husk of itself from this time a year ago. It’s legitimately in near ruin.
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 11, 2011 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
It’s still difficult to tell with all of those names that you mentioned (and these are mostly recent names). I’ll agree that you do not want to deplete your farm system, but at the same time, most of these guys (even your elite prospects) will not reach the majors or reach it in a very limited fashion. Based on the depth of many farm systems, a team has to consider a prospect a success if he reaches the Majors at all. If the Phillies had traded Hamels, Utley, Howard, Rollins, etc. before they reached the big leagues, the team now would likely not be a success. The team climate at the time those trades may have occurred was much different though and the Phillies did not possess the revenue stream that they do now.
My major criticism of RAJ is that he does not trade veterans in their walk years. Jayson Werth could’ve brought in some good names into the system if he was traded in 10. I’m of the opinion that if you do not intend to re-sign your veterans, that you should trade them (unless their presence is absolutely needed to make the playoffs). The Phillies could’ve also traded Madson and Rollins this year and gotten some good pieces in return. This likely would not have effected the results of this season at all.
I say trade your prospects for established veterans, but when the time comes, trade your established veterans for prospects. If you get a guy in the system who points to major league success, trade the guy in front of him. This way, it’s much easier to maintain a good farm system even when you reach into it to get somebody that will help your team over several years.
My major criticism of RAJ is that he does not trade veterans in their walk years. Jayson Werth could’ve brought in some good names into the system if he was traded in 10. I’m of the opinion that if you do not intend to re-sign your veterans, that you should trade them (unless their presence is absolutely needed to make the playoffs). The Phillies could’ve also traded Madson and Rollins this year and gotten some good pieces in return. This likely would not have effected the results of this season at all.
How would this not have affected the season? While the playoffs are a crapshoot, trading two of the teams best players would absolutely have affected their chances of winning post season games.
So let me get this straight.
Today Pat Burrell retires, Scott Boras gets a $50MM knee to the balls from the Phillies that is sure to backfire on the team anyway, and Jimmy Rollins gets the “It’s not you, it’s me” read-between-the-lines kissoff, virtually guaranteeing his productive playing time to stretch to age 40. Wunnerful.
Also, look how the Phillies resent it when Penn State hogs the media spotlight!
Maybe Darren Daulton is right about 2012. #endisnigh
History lessons by Nomeansno who apparently RAJ didn't listen to. Fucker.
See we’re just progressing thru history. First we wandered thru the desert, then made a pitstop in the Mediterranian where we learned how to build an empire but now it looks as if we are entering an era when science = original sin, artists learn to draw like 6 year olds and we live under the thumb of the Guy with the Fabulous Hat. But hey we do get the flying buttress and vaulted celings. Holy fuck yeah! And lutes., yes those too! We so excited.
But, remember, Darren Daulton is the divining rod that will lead us thru the darkness like a Glo-Stik Martin Luther. And no, no Gaileo for us so don’t even go there. Or Copernicus. Fuck him too.
by j reed on Nov 11, 2011 7:47 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
At this point in time, eh fuck it
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 11, 2011 5:36 PM EST reply actions
at this point, it seems resources aren’t finite, it’s whatever the Phils feel like spending
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 11, 2011 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just happy that Ruben didn’t manage to completely dismantle the farm system some how.
Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months.
-Oscar Wilde
There’s some guy on CSNPhilly trolling (I assume…or at least I hope) about how the front office was being cheap signing Papelbon to this deal and they should have ponied up for Madson.
…I don’t even.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
Like he thinks Madson is going to make more money and the Phillies should have payed that money to keep him, instead of being “cheap” and signing Papelbon.
Rage…
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 11, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
At the rate Rube is spending money, this should be an incredibly boring offseason after next week or so.
Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months.
-Oscar Wilde
I guess getting good bats wasn’t an option. I think this guy chokes in big situations.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Nov 11, 2011 6:47 PM EST via mobile reply actions
flagged
(but not really)
(but still)
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by alcatraz0109 on Nov 11, 2011 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
You-a-sucky Badatsports? No thanks.
I want my J-Roll back. After reading Salisbury’s interview with Amaro, however, I’ve resigned myself to the fact that Galvis is going to be brought up way too soon. Roobe was just fawning over him, and you know that that means…
…It means that at some point in the middle of the summer when the first-place Phils are losing a handful of 0-1, 1-2 and 2-3 games with Galvis batting a robust .198/.232/.253, Amaro is going to fire-up the SmugPhone and send Brown, Biddle and May to Arizona in exchange for Stephen Drew at the deadline. WIP and CSN message boards will be elated, while the denizens of TGP will single-handedly make some Xanax sales rep’s summer quarter.
by 88Lindros88 on Nov 12, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
RAJ seeing himself in players
I’ve resigned myself to the fact that Galvis is going to be brought up way too soon.
I brought this up (unhappily) in an earlier thread. Like the Pap signing and the possible non-j-roll-signing, it was rightly nearly-universally panned.
But maybe Galvis is exciting to RAJ for the same reason that Mini-Mart is exciting. Except Galvis is better at D.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
I’m starting to see us now try and go after Reyes for 20mm per for 3 or 4 years.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
Because he met with them?
They supposedly offered three years, not a chance that takes him off the market this early.
by Stephen Schmidt on Nov 11, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, don’t they already have a SS with a bad atty-tood? Between those two, and that punk-internet-dude of an outfielder, and those new unis, that team would be the suckiest bunch of sucks who ever sucked.
Could be worse guys...
You could have to look at these
Way to fail Miami Marlins.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Orioles and Giants and Marlins, oh my!
soooo oooooorrrrnggggggggge
by Wet Luzinski on Nov 11, 2011 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
Yowza. I don’t mind the orange, but those logos. That stupid “abstract” marlin. That awful font. Yeech.
I will always over-value prospects and over-hype rookies. I can't help it.
"Follow me, as I ogle at some gigglesome prospect statistics." -bobbykelly, Silver Seven SB Nation Senators blog
by LeepinLizardz on Nov 13, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Or this after every HR
"You play to win the playoffs, and we let 'em off the hook!" -Herm Mora Green
In all seriousness, most of my friends are baffled by this move, too. One guy came up with the “Ryan Madson is not a proven closer” schtick and I pointed out Papelbon hasn’t been particularly great, yet Madson did fine in covering when Lidge blew up in 2009, then in 2010, and all this year.
“Proven closer.” What does that actually mean?
Awesome sauce
He’s my 2nd favorite Wilson now
"He's a bum...this one stinks...this jerk can't play."-- A father teaching his daughter the Phillies lineup from the program roster, the Vet, c.1998
Remember the last time we had an argument about Woodrow Wilson? Good times
"I remember being three and I wanted to be a baseball player, that's all I ever really wanted to be. That and Spider Man." -Raul Ibanez
Ruben Amaro Jr. Delenda Est
by Jose and the Contrarians on Nov 12, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
I know you wanted to send Woodrow Wilson and prospects to England for Churchill, but we would have had to eat too much salary.
eat too much salary
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
Seriously, RAJ? WTF?
Not the money. Not the years. Not the Type A comp pics.
For the love of God, man! The DOUCHE DOUCHERY!!
Why look'st thou so?' -"With my crossbow
I shot the Albatross."
by RememberthePhitans on Nov 11, 2011 10:17 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Why oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill?
You know, I know this steak doesn’t exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Gritrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After all these years, you know what I realize?
GENGHIS TRON STILL LOVES ME
hey at least Skyrim came out today,so its not all bad
"Who's Been Eatin' Hummus" DJAX
Im not JIBTA.
by howard is better than pujols on Nov 11, 2011 11:06 PM EST reply actions
one of the most amazing games I’ve ever played.
Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months.
-Oscar Wilde
by VanceinmyPants on Nov 13, 2011 1:16 AM EST up reply actions
wow
one thing I don’t get about this—set aside the size of deal, and the overrating of the closer, and a whole bunch of other stuff, and just assume that this was the route they were going and that this is what it was going to take to get either Madson or Papelbon—why opt for Papelbon? That is to say, even if you can argue that Papelbon has been “better” (which you sort of can), has he been better enough to warrant bringing in a new guy, versus the guy you know? And I mean that completely: like, they know Madson, and his health, way better than they could know Papelbon’s. I’d feel vastly better signing my own guy to a long-ish contract than another. (I’m recalling Swartz’s work on FA signings, how teams have fared better re-signing their own guys than they have signing new FAs.)
Also, I think Madson’s high K AND high GB rate combo is preferable to Papelbon’s flyball mix. Fenway was a more of a hitter’s park overall than CBP (by quite a bit), but it actually depresses homeruns, whereas CBP is more or less neutral. It’s perhaps a small difference, but I’d still rather have Madson out there.
bleh.
As much as I abhor this deal, I’m a little excited to see Papelbon in a Phils uniform. The baseline fan in me likes the novelty.
The educated fan still thinks the deal blows…
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 12, 2011 12:47 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Same here. While the improvement in skill from Madson to Papelbon is marginal at best, a part of me is a tad excited to see Papelbon. This may or may not have anything to do with wanting to stick it up John Smoltz’s arse.
Again, this contract is horrible. But seeing Papelbon in a Phillies uniform will be kind of fun.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Papelbon = Bryzgalov?
Utley = Richards?
Howard = Carter?
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Carter is an underpaid, highly productive player. Howard is an massively overpaid, not overly productive player.
Carter is good defensively too.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Nov 12, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
I’m still upset Carter was traded. I was never that high on Richards, though. But that’s an argument for another day.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 12, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
The Phillies want to sign Michael Cuddyer and re-sign Jimmy Rollins but the club finds both players’ asking prices to be too high, tweets Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com.
Well if I were them, or any other free agent I would jack my price up in any discussion with the Phillies after seeing what they just handed to Papelbon.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
I apologize if this has already been said cause I’ve skimmed through the comments, but I was surprised/not surprised when my friend texted me yesterday with the news. I’ve never been a fan of Papelbon with the Sox, especially after 07, cause I think he let everything to go his head (see him irish step dancing above). Do I think that RAJ overpaid for him? Yes. Do I want Madson to go to the Sox cause of the irony? Yes. The other thing that I realized was that with Hamels/Lee/Doc pitching more complete games than the Sox starters, Papelbon won’t necessarily be used in every “save” situation, like in Boston, which makes this deal even more insane.
www.southpawcurve.blogspot.com - check out my baseball blog!!
If they take him and use him in higher leverage innings consistently instead of just “save situations,” I like this deal a little bit more.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 12, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Serious question now that the shock has subdued and the dust has settled.
Take the “I don’t like the terms of the deal” out of the equation. Make the assumption that we were going to sign a reliever to a 4 year deal to be our closer, and that the only two names on the board are Madson and Papelbon.
You HAVE TO HAVE ONE.
4/44 for Madson, vs. 4/50 for Papelbon.
If you have to take one, on that typle of deal, who is it and why?
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
??
It’s actually the opposite, in that he COSTS us a draft pick. Theres a chance we could SWAP a pick. But we would have to offer ARB to Madson, he would have to sign with a team that has pick 16-30, and that team would have to not also sign another type A ranked higher than Madson. (Which is very possible if that team is Washington or Miami)
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
my point is thats not a guarantee, its an assumption.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
Papelbon.
Track record record.
In terms of ability I think they are pretty darn close. One more a strike out pitcher, (which is the best way to record an out)the other induces outs other ways. Approximately the same age.
I don’t have an issue with the Papelbon over Madson per say, and the 6 mil isn’t even the real issue, though it will come back to bite them I am sure. For me, it’s two fold, one, neither guy is worth that kind of money, and 2, Amaro had 3 legit options at closer, Madson, Papelbon and Bell, there is no reason that he couldn’t sit back and let one of them sign and then take it from there. His continual lack of patience and short-sightedness is infuriating.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Madson. To repeat myself, “I think Madson’s high K AND high GB rate combo is preferable to Papelbon’s high K/high flyball mix. Fenway was a more of a hitter’s park overall than CBP (by quite a bit), but it actually depresses homeruns, whereas CBP is more or less neutral.”
And, given that they are so close, I’d rather keep my guy than sign a new guy.
Obviously disagree with the premise, but...
Madson. Cheaper, no loss of draft pick. Has nearly as effective as Papelbon, but as Yolacrary said the high K and GB rate is preferable over a high K and FB rate. Further, I think Madson’s fastball/changeup/cutter repertoire is going to age a lot better than Papelbon’s fastball/split repertoire, which has the potential to be a big deal when these guys hit their age 34/35 seasons.
Also, I like Don’t Stop Believin’ and Papelbons face bothers me.
by 88Lindros88 on Nov 12, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
If neither are signed and they go with a cheaper type-B guy, which is what I prefer, they net more draft picks. That’s what I was thinking as I wrote that.
by 88Lindros88 on Nov 12, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Madson. The difference in talent is fairly marginal, and the less money spent on the bullpen the better.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
With that set of assumptions, Madson. Papelbon may be a better pitcher and a better value, but not by much. Madson, though, is a known quantity. Chooch knows him. Schneider (if he returns) knows him. Cholly and Doobes and company know him. Hell, Franzke and LA and T-Mac and Sarge all know him. They don’t know Paps. That’s a weakness.
Although, really, it’s close to a push.
Not sure what stats your looking at, but Papelbon is significantly better (by ~.7 of a run) than Madson in pretty much every metric you want to look at (ERA, FIP, xFIP, SEIRA) for 2011 and career. In fact, Madson’s best year (2011) was only better than Papel’s worst year. I’m not sure how your seeing talent level as close. I don’t think the whole “know him factor” can even come close to making up the difference.
Given the amount of innings expected, they’re pretty similar. Pap is indeed better (I’ll retract the “may be” part), but is he better enough over the small number of innings to be worth giving up on a guy who is well-known to the organization already?
I don’t think so, but like I said, it’s close to a push.
So Grady Sizemore wants a 1 year contract. I think I’d be all about trying to sign him then.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
A 1 year deal for Sizemore makes a lot of sense if you’re trying to use him as a stopgap this season in LF, and a possible replacement for Vic in CF next season. Essentially you take that money and earmark it for Hamels next year, and assume you go with Brown or Mayberry in LF next year.
I certainly would prefer that to 12mm per for Cuddyer.
We still need a SS, though
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
What kind of contract would he command? Something like $5-7 million? He’s got to take a bit of a reduced salary after his last two seasons, right?
by 88Lindros88 on Nov 12, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
probably closer to 7 than 5 but thats the ballpark.
Gives you flexibilty for Jimmy too.
The other guy who I’m kind of surprised we don’t hear more about is Ryan Doumit. C/1B/OF… 800+ops last year…
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
After some thought...
I’ve decided the Papelbon signing is great.
This is why: It seems that a handful of Phillies pitchers have picked up the cutter with a lot of success the past few seasons, notably Hamels, Madson and Kendrick. I think it coincides nicely with Cliff Lee’s first arrival, but that doesn’t really matter. What’s important here is that Papelbon has nasty stuff and the plan is obviously to use whoever the cutter-guru on the team is to teach him that pitch and turn him into the next Mariano Rivera.
I did most of this thinking subconsciously as I slept last night, but it still seemed solid when I woke up, so I’m running with it.
I wait with bated breath...
to see who Amaro will overpay next in order to achieve “cost certainty”.
It seems to me the only certainty he’s locking in on is the team sucking wind in 2015 from all the bloated dead money contracts.
And is that really the worst thing in the world? A year dedicated to shedding the bad contracts and letting the farm grow a bit while we reload for the next wave? Its really hard to sustain success by constantly pushing the envelope. A year or two at worst of lowered expectations isnt going to ruin anything.
And is that really the worst thing in the world?
In short, yes. No amount of insurance can be provided simply by buying high on big-ticket free agents or trading for premier talent. We saw that this year. The number one free agent pitcher and the number one offensively-skilled outfielder couldn’t help us, so what cause is there to think that signing the most sought-after player is going to fix it? Blowing cash and prospects for “insurance policies” guarantees you greater playoff success, but really only more time that you’ll likely not even be in contention for the postseason.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 13, 2011 3:15 AM EST up reply actions
*doesn’t guarantee you…
Smooth…
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 13, 2011 3:16 AM EST up reply actions
No, the worst thing in the world would involve JReed’s buddy Cthulhu, some angry skunks, a comet, three wild boars, a marble rye, and a partridge in a pear tree.
Sounds like a hell of a Friday night.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Nov 13, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Uh, if I’m not mistaken what the end of the 2011 regular season and the playoffs(especially the Howard Injury) showed us were two things: 1) The offense has severely declined and you can’t win playoff baseball games without a decent offense. 2) The guys on the team have declined.
Given that, doesn’t it make sense to rebuild? Or at the very least, spend 50 million on a guy that’ll boost your offense next year? You know, since I don’t think Shane Victorino will play out of his mind again….
How, exactly, will Paps boost our offense?
And yeah, you are very mistaken. The Phillies had the best run differential in the league this year. Read that slowly. It means that they outscored their opponents more than any other team. Now read it eleven more times. Get it now?
THE. OFFENSE. IS. NOT. AS. BAD. AS. YOU. THINK.
Well, we’re gonna lose a certain guy named Ryan Howard for most of the year and our guys had better be able to step up. And I don’t know how Paps will boost our offense, that’s why I’m criticizing the signing. You can read, no?
Also, we lost the Giants series to pitching, we lost the Cardinals series to pitching.
Not that our pitchers weren’t good enough, they were actually pretty dead even. But once upon a time, good pitching staff or not, it didn’t matter this team was able to generate runs.
But now? I’d like to know where I can find the data to compare Phillies hitters against the teams with mediocre pitching staffs, to the teams with good pitching staffs.
I think the numbers will prove this statement correctly:
We may yet win 100 games
We probably won’t win a Series with this roster.
by LeQuan Glover on Nov 13, 2011 6:21 AM EST up reply actions
It does mention that the Phillies were stymied by good pitching (more so than any other NL team), but it also mentions they had the best offense in the NL after Chase’s return, and the highest-scoring offense relative to the league average since 2007. The offense was not broken; it wasn’t really ever broken (aside from Valdez/Martinez/Gload starts).
Also:
I think the numbers will prove this statement correctly:
We may yet win 100 games
We probably won’t win a Series with this roster.
These two statements make no sense. Why would the Phils be incapable of winning the WS despite winning 100 games? Is there some intangible I’m not seeing here that the Phils have (or don’t have) that precludes them from winning the WS?
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by alcatraz0109 on Nov 13, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Nope. No intangible. Just a presumed downward slide in offense in the playoffs that in actuality does not exist.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
That was more sarcasm than anything. I’m curious how he arrived at those conclusions.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by alcatraz0109 on Nov 14, 2011 6:36 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe I misread your comment. I thought you were pleased with the decision. Apologies.
In any case, the Phillies’ offense turned out to be one of the best in the National League in 2011, and despite losing Howard for an unknown amount of time, it will be one of the best in 2012.
Obviously, you didn’t read this enough, so I’m going to quote it again:
The Phillies had the best run differential in the league this year.
I’m pretty sure you’ll find all teams struggle against good pitching.
"You play to win the playoffs, and we let 'em off the hook!" -Herm Mora Green
Right the 2010 Giants’ offense was just so good that they outclassed all their opponents, Phillies included
by benderbrodriguez on Nov 13, 2011 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
LeQuan’s posts make more sense if you read them in Tim McCarver’s voice.
by Delicious Cake on Nov 13, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions 10 recs
It’s like you cracked the DaVinci code.
by Trev223 on Nov 14, 2011 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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