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Around SBN: This Week In GIFs

On Luck: A Dialectical Analysis of the SABR Debate

[Note by FuquaManuel, 03/29/11 1:15 PM EDT: Obvious frontpage is obvious. Spectacular work Trev.]

I’ve been meaning to write this series of thoughts about luck down into a fanpost for a while now, but I’ve consistently put it off.  This is partially because of the time commitment necessary to actually write up anything in even a halfway convincing or effective manner, but it’s also because I’m wholly unconvinced that the topic is at all interesting to anyone but myself.  While I’ve found the baseball community to be impressively and widely intellectual about the sport, I think it’s fair to say that most of what I’ve seen has come from a more statistically minded viewpoint, which is to say, in the parlance of the blog, a more left-brained viewpoint.  I’m not at all hostile to this, but that focus, as well as my general alignment with a more sabr-slant, does give me pause.  If the goal is to provide yet another solution to the stats vs. non-stats debate, then how exactly am I doing any favors to "my side" by ignoring the objective in favor of a more ethereal lens.

And then, of course, I read this frankly brilliant piece by the immortal Joe Posnanski, and this similarly excellent analysis by the inimitable FuquaManuel, both in response to not-really-necessary-to-link pieces attacking advanced statistics in general, and it got me to thinking about what exactly the argument was about.  I mean, obviously the argument is about what method is best in terms of evaluating and valuing baseball players, but I started to think about what the actual rhetoric of the argument entailed, why it was so tense on either side.  And I certainly don’t absolve myself from this either – I get as frothed and angry at the Murray Chasses of the world as anyone; I love Fire Joe Morgan just about as much as I love anything on the internet; and I participate actively (if poorly) in a fantasy baseball league that uses FIP, which can only be seen as a suggestive middle finger to more traditional W-L or ERA qualifications.  But aside from my intellectual commitments to it, why do I, and presumably others, feel that the SABR vs. grission debate is like a literal war of words?  This seems to me to be a pretty significant question, and, along with the general right-brained tendencies of TGP, seems to set the stage for a recontextualization of, if not a solution to, the terms of the argument we’ve been having all this time.

Star-divide

As the title of this post suggests, I’m going to go about this task by way of discussing "luck."  The main reason I’m focusing on luck has been that, by and large, I see it as the primary point of division between the two camps.  In a way, this is an expansion of Posnanski’s main thesis, in which he suggests that non-stat folks presuppose the importance of stats without really understanding the rigor and observational duration (large sample size alert!) behind them.  I think this is right, but it seems that one might be even more specific: luck, as in the reason we use FIP, xFIP, SIERA, DIPS, BABIP, etc. seems to be, if not actually the true stake dividing the two camps, then emblematic of said division.  In short, we might effectively parrot the position of the anti-SABR using luck by saying "I know, by watching the players play the game, and by enjoying and living and dying with these games, that what happens on a baseball diamond isn’t ‘luck’ or a ‘gamble,’ but actual effort and skill and hard work."

All (very tempting) critiques of the insane valorization (and misconception) of hard work aside, this enunciation brings to the fore a pretty straightforward contradiction: one group sees actions on a baseball diamond, outside of a select few (strikeouts, walks, homeruns) as effectively uncontrollable, and the other sees actions on a baseball diamond as entirely in the control of the players on the field.  In philosophical, political, and (entering my wheelhouse) literary issues, when two things dramatically contradict each other, one way to build an inquiry is through the use of dialectical reasoning.  This is, of course, the second part of the title of the post – I promise, it does get to baseball, but I figure some background on the dialectic might be helpful.  If you’re at all adverse to back of the envelope philosophical explication, though, just skip down, say, two paragraphs.

So, essentially, the dialectic is a philosophical technology by which one collapses two contradictory elements of a system or a phenomenon into a singular resolving enunciation or explanation.  The most popularly accessible one (popular here being a loose term at best) is the Marxist dialectic, by which one can collapse the distinction of subject and object into the historical materialism of class conflict.  In other words, and in more practicable terms, we might identify contradictions that appear in our everyday lives – say, the lionizing of "blue collar athletes" and the fact that "blue collar" workers, inasmuch as the category still exists unmarred, make a fraction of what any athlete, "selfish" or otherwise might make – and by way of dialectical analysis, work to resolve those two contradictions into the singular observation that this contradiction might be resolved by an appeal to a larger class conflict.  From there, it’s a hop, skip, and a jump to the larger claim that history is driven by class conflict.

Dialectic analysis does not, of course, have to be resolutely Marxist; while I will admit that I find the Marxist method the more compelling of the bunch, one might just as fruitfully locate and resolve contradictions in the service of idealism, as we see in GWF Hegel.  Furthermore, schools as far apart as Platonic and Nietzschean philosophy utilize their own versions of the dialectic.  So, with apologies to Marx and, more recently, with apologies to Fredric Jameson, my baseball analysis will not really focus on class conflict at all, though this does not mean that we might not find such analysis political.  As Jameson says in Marxism and Form, dialectical analysis, at its core, is an analysis of a system, an analysis we might conceive of as a "form in time, as process, as a lived experience of a peculiar and determinate structure" (307).  Or, to paraphrase his further elaboration just a few sentences later, thinking dialectically is, in effect, thinking about thought, a wholly self-conscious and self-aware method of thinking by which we determine significance for the very argumentative positioning that we otherwise take for granted.

So, you completely reasonably ask, what does this actually have to do with the debate that I so openly (and perhaps foolishly) promised to recontextualize at the beginning of this analysis?  Let me answer that question by making yet another leap. If luck, as I’ve suggested, is the primary method of understanding the divide between SABR and non-SABR folks, then the most obviously significant moment at which this divide becomes important is during the "clutch" play.  This is perhaps a problematic way of thinking about the moment, since the idea of a clutch skill, in and of itself, is anathema to SABR minded folks, as it is a) unrepeatable and b) presupposes a level of control over baseball that contradicts the basic premise of luck-independence in statistics.  So, let’s scale back a bit and say that the moment I’m referring to is when one might perceive an action to be either clutch or timely, depending on one’s approach.

What seems completely ignored in any analysis of the argument I’ve seen thus far is that, despite arguments over the meaning behind the moment, these kinds of clutch/timely moments or plays in baseball are uniformly enjoyable for both camps, presuming that it was their team who made the play.  This might seem obvious, but here’s a thought experiment: imagine you’re watching Game 4 of the 2009 NLCS with, I don’t know, Bill Conlin, though it could be any of the other anti-SABR guys out there who, if you’re like me, irritate on a pretty regular basis.  So, at the bottom of the ninth inning – and this was pretty amazingly enacted on the game thread that night, in a back and forth with FM and CoburnsCuddleBuddy that I’ve cited in the past as a primary reason I started posting here – you’re probably having a bit of an argument with Conlin, who thinks the Phillies have a chance.  You, as a reasonable fellow or lass, disagree, as Jonathan Broxton has been a pretty incredible closer through the year.  Conlin reminds you of Matt Stairs’ moonshot the year previous, and, after Broxton walks him, assures you that the Phillies are "in Broxton’s head."  You  once again disagree, and, even as there are two on, you assure Conlin that Greg Dobbs’ lineout was, frankly, what we might expect to happen in this situation.  Frankly, the percentage chance of winning is still quite low.  Now, Jimmy Rollins is up, and you assure Conlin that Rollins has no chance of picking up Broxton’s stuff; Conlin likewise assures you that Rollins has known to be clutch in the past.  You bite your tongue.  And then, after all of that, a hit, two runs, and a walkoff win.

What do both you and Conlin do at this point?  Well, presuming you both are pulling for the Phillies, you both get incredibly excited about a huge and improbable win.  It doesn’t really matter that Conlin was "right" or that, indeed, there was always – regardless of perception – a pretty poor chance that the Phillies would pull out a win: the argument effectively dissolves into a visceral joy over the outcome of the game.  And here we finally get to the utility of considering this whole situation in terms of dialectic reasoning – the positions construct a powerful contradiction and then, in one specific moment, resolve themselves into a singular understanding and appreciation of the game.  At that moment in our thought experiment (and, if you live with an anti-SABR family member, this may not need too much imagination to concoct) the disagreement dissolves into the systemic truth of baseball which is that, at core, we want the team we follow to win.

Again, this may seem like a truly obvious point, but the moment of excitement surrounding a clutch/timely play is what is fundamentally at stake, or at least perceived to be at stake, in the larger argument.  Anti-SABR or anti-stat folks often claim that a more SABR-slanted appreciation of baseball serves as a repudiation of this basic excitement, a tendency that is brilliantly mocked by the great Fire Joe Morgan, a mockery that includes one Murray Chass basically making the very argument I’m suggesting emblematizes the anti-SABR community.  But SABR-minded folks will tell you, and I’d tell you this as well, that the basic point of stats isn’t to take the human face out of baseball or to suggest that, as long as there is a huge aspect of luck in successfully hitting a tiny spheroid at 90+ MPH into an appropriate area of grass with a stick, the accomplishments of people on a baseball field mean nothing.  Rather, the knowledge of luck and how much of a factor it is serves to do two things that, I think, Chass would greatly appreciate: one, it allows us to really appreciate truly great players, and not just players that are sold to us as great; and two, it allows us to appreciate baseball’s anomalies that much more.  How much more incredible is it that Jamie Moyer pitched a complete game shutout at 48 years old when you know that he was riding an unbelievable streak of good luck in terms of BABIP; yes, you can see it as diminishing the value of the accomplishment, but at the same point, as the accomplishment becomes that much more unlikely, doesn’t it also become that much more enjoyable?

But this isn’t meant to absolve the SABR folks entirely, insofar as it’s a misconception to point to folks who do not value stats and accuse them of some sort of luddite ruination of the game.  Admittedly, I’m having a hard time defending them, but just because someone repudiates the concept of BABIP and defends W-L record doesn’t mean that they don’t "get" baseball – it simply means that they view the basic narrative differently.  Are they wrong?  Yeah, sure – the stats prove that luck does exist and that it’s not a factor that you can control, unless you are the White Wizard, Matt Cain.  But to be painfully frank, the choice to believe in effort or choice is simply a way to make logical the outcome of a truly illogical, crazy game, to give that game a narrative.  To believe in the stats is to say that the game has a clear tendency and can be guessed at and predicted to a point, but that, after a certain point, there is no clear narrative, that there is chaos and unexpected outcomes.

And this, finally, is another outcome of dialectic thinking: the contradictions become their opposites in the space of resolution.  SABR-minded folks eventually believe that, in a small enough sample size, a team of David Ecksteins could, in fact, beat a team of Albert Pujolses – in short, they admit that stats do not act as unfailing predictors.  Anti-SABR minded folks profess the opposite and, again, in a small sample size, will tell us that the outcome is entirely predictable, that there are appreciable predictors in baseball, like clutch and grit and effort.  But in the end, these are simply two worldviews that end up at the same point: a profound appreciation of the unexpected moment.  Prior to the moment, they will predict differently, and after the moment, they will explain differently, but in the end, philosophically, we’re after the same basic thing.  And the hard truth is that, unless we are GM’s, there’s a level at which the narrative we prefer to see played out is basically a personal choice that affects nothing but our enjoyment of the game.

I do want to note, though, in conclusion, that I do not mean this final statement as a defense of anti-SABR positions.  Indeed, I think that the basic resolution of the dialectic of luck shows that taking an "anti" stance, at all, misses the point.  I advocate strongly and consistently for advanced statistics, much to the chagrin of my friends and relatives.  But that does not mean that I’d attack, say, my dad for goggling over Ryan Howard’s RBI’s – that’s his deal, and it’s how he explains a game that is, at its core, inexplicable.  And I think, at core, most SABR-folks are like me – pretty generous and willing to live and let live, while keeping a serious eye on the evolution of how one sees the game*.  This attitude is not, however, shared by the mainstream baseball media.  The sheer number of articles that ridicule and attack sabermetrics through ad hominems and condescension testifies to this, and I find this terribly problematic.

Indeed, if we take anything from what is, like all but the most rigorous philosophical/theoretical analyses, a roundabout and meandering affair, we might say that a dialectical analysis of luck in baseball shows us one central fact: that the game is built, like most things in life, on contradictions.  Furthermore, we might just as easily glean from our use of the dialectic method that these contradictions are not and cannot ever be stable – each gesture or assertion has its own contradiction built into it.  It is the very quality of sabermetrics to actually account for and embrace this contradiction that sets it apart from the attacks on the anti-SABR side of things.  The simple disavowal that playoffs resist statistical prediction is a self-conscious admission and critique of the limits of sabermetric thinking; on the other side, grit, hustle, and effort can and do account for anything, and there is no self-awareness to go around.  In this regard, what we might take finally from this analysis is that the argument ought not to be considered as those who are right versus those who are wrong, because their being wrong (or right for that matter) is beside the point.  We ought not even lump all of the anti-luck folks into one boat.  Rather, we should argue against the general tendency to disavow self-aware thinking by way of insult. In this regard, sabermetrics is not revolutionary because it’s statistical, though that is certainly part of it; sabermetrics is revolutionary and worth thinking about because it identifies and locates, instead of presupposing, limits to our collective understanding of baseball – it is aware of the fact that part of the beauty of the game is that you cannot know what will happen next.  If anything is in danger of being lost, it is that sense of not knowing that so galls people like Murray Chass, Bill Conlin, Alan Hirsch, Mike Tully, or Mike Celzic, or whoever.  In the end, and in what is by far the most important sabermetric insight, not everything can or should be made logically consistent, and to try and imagine baseball as simply a series of narrativized sequential moments robs the sport of what actually makes it not only a tremendous game, but also such a potent metaphor for life: the vagaries and uncertainties of luck.  

*I should note that this does not apply to GM’s, owners, managers, or even people who can actually vote for awards like the Cy Young or MVP.  I think being anything but militant and critical over non-SABR folks who are actually making baseball decisions is not the same as letting one’s colleagues in the real world just like baseball their way.  Frankly, it is in my mind irresponsible to limit the potential or recognition of honestly good players simply due to an anti-statistical bias, and should be, to their minds, potentially unprofitable to leave such players in the minors or as trade bait when they could be identified as good by using different, even "nerdy" methods.

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Just briefly, as it would have been weirdly out of place in the article, if you’re at all interested in following up on/mercilessly critiquing my understanding of the dialectic, I’m pulling most of my thinking from Karl Marx (Capital, vol. 1) and Fredric Jameson (Marxism & Form and The Political Unconscious), with a smattering of GWF Hegel (mainly vicariously through Jameson’s readings of The Phenomenology of Spirit). I realize it’s not terribly rigorous work up top, but it’s all gleaned, with more complexity, from those texts.

by Trev223 on Mar 29, 2011 1:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Fucking fantastic.

Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.

by FuquaManuel on Mar 29, 2011 1:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Will you marry me?

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Mar 29, 2011 1:18 PM EDT reply actions  

I saw him first.

Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.

by FuquaManuel on Mar 29, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, this is fucking amazing. Excellent, excellent work.

by yolacrary on Mar 29, 2011 1:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Awesome
Rather, we should argue against the general tendency to disavow self-aware thinking by way of insult.

Words to live by.

Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.

by doubleh on Mar 29, 2011 1:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I could imagine this being the kind of thing the Adorno and Horkheimer would do if they were baseball fans.

We should start our own baseball Frankfurt school here.

Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.

by FuquaManuel on Mar 29, 2011 1:39 PM EDT reply actions  

*would have done.

I know they are dead, obviously.

Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.

by FuquaManuel on Mar 29, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Many things make this far and away the best Phillies blog. Poetry? Check. SABR-analysis? Check. Comedy? Check. Reasonable (i.e., non-panicky) responses as baseball fans? Check. Really the only thing missing was the dialectic, which this excursus makes up for in spades.

by yolacrary on Mar 29, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

(possibly this shouldn’t have been a reply to FM, but I was originally agreeing with the A&H remark, before editing)

by yolacrary on Mar 29, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed! I call Benjamin!

by Trev223 on Mar 29, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously, all, thanks so much, I really appreciate it. Echoing what yolacrary said, the only reason I felt emboldened to write the piece at all was that it had such a great and multi-disciplinary landing spot.

by Trev223 on Mar 29, 2011 1:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Seriously Trev, I don’t know what’s more impressive: the points you make or the truly literary way in which you present them. Great stuff.

by Boundforbeach on Mar 29, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow. /in awe of the intellectual rigor and clear (and humorous) writing

by schmenkman on Mar 29, 2011 2:04 PM EDT reply actions  

For all the bashful out there, you are allowed to rec this.

Why look'st thou so?' -"With my crossbow
I shot the Albatross."

by RememberthePhitans on Mar 29, 2011 3:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Fucking brilliant. Lucidly written and amazingly thought out. A fantastic piece for literary digestion. Bravo, sir, bravo.

And I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention TC: How, exactly, does this blog read like Bleacher Report?

by FearTheTurtIe on Mar 29, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Can you link to where they said that?

by JoshuaR on Mar 29, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could you please not?

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Mar 29, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is so brilliantly well-written that I am loath to even attempt any sort of expansion on the subject matter. Thanks for sharing, and please continue to contribute to TGP.

"Ninety percent of this game is half mental" - Yogi Berra (SI, May 14, 1979)

by bandwagonesque on Mar 29, 2011 4:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Just a question, possibly a stupid one, but is dialectical analysis somewhat analogous to the more inane concept of a Catch-22? From your explanation (and Wikipedia’s, which is not quite as good as yours, by the way) I’m getting that it is, but perhaps I’m off track.

by FearTheTurtIe on Mar 29, 2011 4:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Or related to, I shouldn’t say analogous. The gist of my question is that I understand, from your explanation, dialectical analysis as being a way of dealing with certain Catch-22’s that can be seen within a society, argument, etc. Is this an incorrect understanding?

by FearTheTurtIe on Mar 29, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve always understood it to be the bringing together or recognizing the relationship between dueling ideologies. Catch-22’s are paradoxical, but there’s never any resolution or sense to be made from them.

Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.

by doubleh on Mar 29, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is pretty much right, I’d say, but it’s a tough question to figure through. A catch-22 is sort of a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation, like a Kafka-esque jurisprudence or something like that. Dialectic reasoning would definitely be useful in considering these kinds of paradoxes, since, for instance, needing experience to get a job, and needing a job to get experience is the kind of contradiction that could easily fall under the aegis of Marxist historical materialism, and, thus the dialectic. The difference is that, like doubleh said, in working through the dialectic, the resolution is crucially important — both in terms of resolving the contradictions to a singular enunciation, but also in terms of blurring the lines between the contradictions in the first place.

Put differently, a catch-22 can be an irony, but need not be a contradiction, and, more importantly, need not be resolved. The dialectic really can’t be considered complete unless one works to resolution, as the resolution is largely the point (for Hegel, the Ideal; for Marx, class conflict).

by Trev223 on Mar 29, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

OOOH BABY

Love it – forwarding this to one of my philosophy professors down here at Georgetown, who’s a big Nationals fan.

Just a thought, given the nature of the discussion here: is it just me, or does the tension Trev discusses have unmistakably theological undertones?

by pjg47 on Mar 29, 2011 10:17 PM EDT reply actions  

The tensions are obviously just sexual. It’s about the repressed love that dare not speak it’s name between Tom Tango and Bill Conlin. I see a screenplay…the Last Tango in Conlin, complete with the infamous scene.

Why look'st thou so?' -"With my crossbow
I shot the Albatross."

by RememberthePhitans on Mar 30, 2011 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Trev, I submitted a link to your excellent piece on Baseball Think Factory.

by phatj on Mar 29, 2011 10:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh nice, thanks. Haha, the immediate critique of my use of stat vs. SABR is a splash of cold water, but it’s definitely cool to see the piece spur conversation.

by Trev223 on Mar 29, 2011 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now I’m going to dream about being in the press box with Bill Conlin watching game 4 of the 2009 NLCS. Thanks a lot.

(In all seriousness, this was a wonderful read. So fantastically pointy-headed.)

by Wet Luzinski on Mar 29, 2011 10:53 PM EDT reply actions  

I feel smarter having read that.

thanks for the insight!

by uspsuperman on Mar 30, 2011 1:11 AM EDT reply actions  

“Dialectic Dom” Brown has a certain ring to it .

by Wet Luzinski on Mar 30, 2011 1:19 AM EDT reply actions  

If I ever meet Dom Brown I’m going to call him that. He’ll ask why. I’ll explain, and his response will almost certainly be “Aww MAN!”

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Mar 30, 2011 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Clutchiness?

For some reason, this right-brain offering sent me completely left-brain in search of data to statistically show/prove a lack of clutchiness. My logic went as follows: if clutch does not exist, there should be a convergence of BA w/RISP and BA no RISP over the careers of many players. In my search for a decent size sample of players (100+) with decent numbers of at bats (3000+), I ran into this article from 2005 that does everything my post would have done and more.

Further fuel for the “no clutch” fire.

"Ninety percent of this game is half mental" - Yogi Berra (SI, May 14, 1979)

by bandwagonesque on Mar 30, 2011 10:30 AM EDT reply actions  

I dunno, I thought this offering was pretty left-brained. If the left brain is the side that’s thought to control reasoning.

Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.

by FuquaManuel on Mar 30, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I never verified that, actually. I was going along with the OP:

While I’ve found the baseball community to be impressively and widely intellectual about the sport, I think it’s fair to say that most of what I’ve seen has come from a more statistically minded viewpoint, which is to say, in the parlance of the blog, a more left-brained viewpoint.

"Ninety percent of this game is half mental" - Yogi Berra (SI, May 14, 1979)

by bandwagonesque on Mar 30, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Truthfully, I positioned this in terms of popularly conceived notions of how non-“objective” reasoning is categorized. So, in calling it right-brained, I probably spoke more to my fear that, like in the academy and in most funding choices, anything not strictly involving numbers is by and large relegated to the right brained and creative, and thus “unproductive” ends of the Earth. It’s a bit of a vicious cycle, of course, since both sides are, in fact, extremely important to a sound argument — in saying that the right-brainedness here made me comfortable, I was mainly speaking to my fears that, without hard facts, people would just ignore the reasoning entirely.

tl;dr: You’re both right!

by Trev223 on Mar 30, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

To clarify further, take a look at the (horrendously shortsighted) conversation about philosophy and the place of Marxism and the humanities in general on the Baseball Think Factory link that phatj posted. While I am totally sure the guys there are smart, it’s absolutely inane to say that a) Marxism doesn’t represent a viable alternative discourse (because listing Heidegger and Hegel instead of Marx doesn’t absolve the absolutely real and still present problematic of class consciousness) and that b) humanities isn’t valuable because it doesn’t involve things like “inventing the steam engine” or “discovering/theorizing electromagnetism.” Both positions stem from an appeal towards a percieved absolutism of the measurable alternative, what I would (maybe ironically) call “the objectivity of numbers,” which, actually, I would argue sabermetrics is not at all about. It is, however, what academic dick-measuring (for lack of a better term) is all about, and the bullying power of the bottom line is an easy way to take the teeth out of an argument for a careless (if also intelligent) public, hence my trepidation.

But, like I said, TGP marries the two brains in a way that is refreshing and, above all else, actually representative in the real world. Anyway, rant over, I guess — sorry if this got overboard: it’s kind of a hobby horse/pet peeve.

by Trev223 on Mar 30, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I’m glad you wrote this. I haven’t followed up on the discussion at Baseball Think Factory, beyond the first few, but you touch on an important point. While I agree that at its best sabermetrics is not about “the objectivity of numbers”, far too many of its proponents talk about baseball analysis as if it were. The dismissal of Marxism is not at all surprising, given the general free-market libertarian bent of so many of them. It is already a dead letter.

by yolacrary on Mar 30, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Marxism” is a tainted term. People who have studied it accept it on an academic basis. Everyone else doesn’t. A less loaded, more neutral term for the reasoning process is probably less likely to interfere with the logical, reasoned results of the process. A marxist analysis can lead to useful insights that can be useful in a general free-market libertarian world view.

My personal view is that we are all slaves to our ideological viewpoints and that a perfect vision of an untainted reality is ultimately impossible or else exceptionally elusive. To that end, being able to have a variety of reasoning methodologies in my toolbox is pretty helpful. I don’t care whether they are called “wrench” or “hammer” or “sickle and hammer,” just whether they provide me with utility.

I’m a slut, apparently.

Why look'st thou so?' -"With my crossbow
I shot the Albatross."

by RememberthePhitans on Mar 30, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is to say, beating a dead horse, many proponents of advanced baseball analysis strike me as positivists, loosely speaking, with a very narrow (though widely held) idea of what science is.

by yolacrary on Mar 30, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mister Clutch

My feelings vacillate between wanting to believe that certain players can step up big when the situation demands it – like Ryan Howard asking to get to the plate vs. the Rockies – and understanding that “clutch” situations are only a part of the game, of the overall picture,if you will. This article you referenced is great at pointing out how players performed with runners in scoring position. And the outcome for some players is obviously better than for others. But there’s no way I would have taken Pat Tabler over, say, Hal Morris, even if Tabler was one of the best clutch hitters and Morris was one of the worst.

by phillyinportland on Apr 3, 2011 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am amazed and impressed that you managed to explain the dialectic without resorting to the thesis/antithesis : synthesis dialogue.

Bob.

by The Dark on Mar 30, 2011 1:05 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

This post is like WIP host&caller repellant.

by Wet Luzinski on Mar 30, 2011 7:17 PM EDT reply actions  

This post is like WIP host&caller repellant.

by Wet Luzinski on Mar 30, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dobbs' Liner

Given that liners fall for base hits over 70% of the time, Dobbs’ caught liner was unlucky for him. Jimmy’s liner did what it should have done.

by Mace Chutney on Mar 30, 2011 9:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Point taken. But I think it’s reasonable enough to say that, even had it been Dobbs’ liner instead of Jimmy’s that had fallen, the basic result would have been remarkable and surprising enough to fit the thought experiment.

by Trev223 on Mar 30, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

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Philadelphia Phillies
@ St. Louis Cardinals

Friday, May 25, 2012, 8:15 PM EDT
Busch Stadium

Cliff Lee vs Kyle Lohse

Clear. Winds blowing from right to left field at 5-15 m.p.h. Game time temperature around 90.

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