Goodbye Yellow Brick Mad-Dog: Ryan Madson Signs One Year Deal with Reds
by WholeCamels on Jan 11, 2012 8:35 AM EST
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PrintApparently concluding that he had a better chance at a lucrative long term deal in next year's free agent market, former Phillies reliever Ryan Madson has reportedly agreed to terms on a one year deal with the Cincinnati Reds for approximately $8.5 million.
Madson, 31, found himself in a new situation -- entering the offseason as a "closer" rather than a set-up guy. It's possible that other teams didn't appreciate the relatively thin closer resume, but a one year deal should allow him to burnish his credential and sign a longer term contract next offseason, when the market isn't flooded with back of the bullpen types, as it has been this season.
Madson concludes (this portion of) his Phillies career third in appearances (473) for a pitcher in franchise history, behind only a couple of guys named Steve Carlton (499) and Robin Roberts (529) (h/t schmenkman on that factoid). Although he should probably be known for the sudden and impressive leap he took in summer 2007, when a tweak to his delivery resulted in a few extra miles per hour to his fastball and created greater separation with his already devastating change-up, the Game Six 2010 NLCS home run to Juan Uribe will be hard to forget, as well.
Be well, Mad Dog.
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Fare thee well, chair-kicker. Fare thee well.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
#FireRoseman
@boknows71
current draft order
Before FA signings
1 Houston Astros
2 Minnesota Twins
3 Seattle Mariners
4 Baltimore Orioles
5 Kansas City Royals
6 Chicago Cubs
7 San Diego Padres
8 Pittsburgh Pirates
9 Miami Marlins
10 Colorado Rockies
11 Oakland Athletics
12 New York Mets
13 Chicago White Sox
14 Cincinnati Reds
we get the pick right before Cincinnati, so 14th overall, and a supplemental pick. we get this BECAUSE we offered arbitration. and he was a modified type A this year.
The only free agent left who could affect the order is Fielder. if he signs with any of the teams ABOVE 14 (Miami,Seattle, Baltimore for example) We’d end up picking 15th.
I think.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
pick
Still not totally sure I agree with the conclusion that the Phillies get the 14th pick.
According to this, the “their old team will receive compensation in the form of the pick immediately before the highest one they would have received under the old rules, as well as a supplemental-round selection.” (emphasis added)
“Under the old rules,” Cincy’s 14th overall is protected, so the Phillies should then get the pick immediately before the Reds 2nd round selection. Unless there’s something I’m missing.
The problem is we’re all sourcing this on articles that interpret the new CBA, and not the CBA itself, which would (hopefully) not have that ambiguity.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Meanwhile, clubs won’t have to surrender a draft pick to sign one of the following six players: Heath Bell, Michael Cuddyer, Kelly Johnson, Ryan Madson, Josh Willingham and Francisco Rodriguez. Teams that lose these players after offering arbitration will obtain first round picks in the slot before the signing team plus a supplementary draft pick for a total of two selections.
Albert Pujols, Prince Fielder, C.J. Wilson, David Ortiz, Jonathan Papelbon, Roy Oswalt, Jose Reyes and Jimmy Rollins were also Type A free agents this offseason. They will cost one draft pick to sign. Their teams will obtain two total picks if they decline offers of arbitration to sign elsewhere, as expected. Takashi Saito and Carlos Beltran, two other Type As, cannot be offered arbitration. Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports first reported the changes.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
see below
direct from the CBA
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
Do you have a link? I want to read it in full.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jan 11, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
here’s where I took the excerpt below from
http://www.perfectgame.org/Articles/View.aspx?article=6410
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111122&content_id=26025138&vkey=pr_mlb&c_id=mlb
Thats the MLB summary of the new agreement. Unfortunately it doesn’t address this offseason.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
yeah, BA’s Jim Callis is saying the same thing.
by perfectdepth on Jan 11, 2012 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
From the CBA
A team that signs players eligible for compensation forfeits their first-round pick if they were among the top 20 teams in baseball the previous year based on winning percentage. The teams that finished with the 10 worst winning percentages the previous year do no forfeit their first pick in the draft if they sign a free agent eligible for compensation. These teams would forfeit the next pick they possess, meaning it may not necessarily be the team’s second-round selection.
This is where things gets tricky. We know things will change next offseason, affecting the 2013 draft, and since there have already been a few changes to the status of free agents this offseason as detailed below, it is still unclear if the free agent compensation process will continue, for the most part, as it has in recent years.
• Some players with a Type A or B ranking this offseason have had their compensation changed. Other than Jonathan Papelbon, who signed with the Phillies prior to the arbitration deadline (and the announcement of the new CBA), only six players will cost their signing team a draft pick:
Prince Fielder
David Ortiz (accepted arbitration from the Red Sox)
Albert Pujols (signed with the Angels)
Jose Reyes (signed with the Marlins)
Jimmy Rollins (re-signed with the Phillies)
C.J. Wilson (signed with the Angels)
• Additionally, six players have been designated as modified free agents. Teams will not lose a draft pick when signing any of these players, but the teams that lose the players will receive compensation comparable to what they received under the old draft rules (including the pick just before the team that signed the player):
Heath Bell (signed with the Marlins)
Michael Cuddyer (signed with the Rockies)
Kelly Johnson (accepted arbitration)
Ryan Madson
Josh Willingham (signed with the Twins)
Francisco Rodriguez (accepted arbitration)
For instance, since the Marlins have already signed Heath Bell, the Padres will receive the pick just ahead of the Marlins’ second-round selection, as well as a supplemental first-round pick.
• Five players previously ranked as Type A free agents (Matt Capps, Francisco Cordero, Octavio Dotel, Ramon Hernandez and Darren Oliver) will now be treated as Type B free agents.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
To put that into perspective:
TYPE A (lose pick)
1. Fielder: Unsigned
2. Pujols: Cards get Algels 1st round pick (19th) unprotected
3. Reyes: Marlins 9th pick protected. get sandwich (35th)
4. Rollins: resigned.
5. Wilson: Angels already gave up for Fielder, Rangers get supplemental.
Modifiedes:
1. Bell: Marlins pick is protected
2. Cuddyer Rockies pick is protected
3. Willingham: Twins pick is protected
Madson: Phils get pick before Reds (14th) and supplemental pick.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
actually, I’m not sure of this now, as to whether modified type A’s are based on top 15 (old) or top 10 (new) it’s kinda vague actually, and because all the other modified typw a’s signed with teams that were 1-10 in order, theres no precedent.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
The problem is that I think we’re all going off of peoples’ interpretations of the CBA. I’d like to read the actual document.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jan 11, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
it is. it’s posted at MLB.com if you do a search for it, but since it doesn’t take affect until the season begins, technically, the 2007-2011 one is whats still posted.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
Ay, there’s the rub.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jan 11, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Here’s mlb.com’s list of Top 50 draft prospects: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2012/
Just in case the Phillies do get to pick 14th or 15th.
I like the names Carlos Correa, Albert Almora, and Rio Ruiz. Too bad we can’t get all three of them.
They should draft Carlos Correa, Rio Ruiz, and find some guy who can forge a birth certificate for himself with the name Rio Correa, invite them all to Spring Training, put them and Chooch in the starting lineup for one of the exhibitions, and see how long it takes for Wheeler’s head to explode.
by Rujasu on Jan 11, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Trade for minor league 3B Leo Correa. It’s close enough.
Bob.
by The Dark on Jan 12, 2012 11:48 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Apparently, We’re focusing on a 1 year deal for Hamels….
With Rivera on the end of his contract, it’s not out of the real of reality that by April 2013 hamels and madson could both be wearing different colored pinstripes.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
link to salisbury Article
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
I wouldn’t look too far into that. This seems to indicate that they have to exchange salary numbers for arbitration by the end of the week, so they are probably trying to agree on something to announce for next year by then. They can replace the one year contract if they agree on a long term deal later.
by topherstarr on Jan 11, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
end of the week=Sunday. So not really the end of the week, but really soon.
by topherstarr on Jan 11, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Not only that, but we cant give him the extension now or we’ll get whacked with the luxury tax. We have to wait till the start of the season, same as the Red Sox last year with Adrian Gonzalez.
well, that depends on how the deal is structured, and to be realistic, with the CBA changes and the jump to $189mm in 2014, any deal would likely be heavily backloaded.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
I dont think the structure matters, they average out the salary for salary tax purposes anyway, hence the need to wait for the season to start.
Correct. Acutally, if the one year deal is announced at a comparably low number, I’d interpret that to mean they have agreed to the parameters of a long term extension, or both sides feel like they are close, and they are waiting to sign it until after opening day so they can use the arbitration number for this season’s luxury tax.
Say they privately agree to 5/$95. They could announce $11 million for this year, then 4/$84 in April, and punt the higher AAV to next year.
And my understanding is that if they go over the limit in 2013 and then get back under in 2014 when the cap number goes up, they would be treated as first-time offenders if they go over in 2015 or beyond. So if doing Hamels contract that way pushes them over by a million or two in 2013, no big deal.
by topherstarr on Jan 11, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
This is one of the things I love about TGP. Smart posters who don’t just know the players, but obscure rules and loopholes.
I wish I could love that about the team…
Bob.
by The Dark on Jan 11, 2012 12:56 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
the actual language from the CBA
Here’s the actual language from the CBA in regards to the competitive balance (or luxury) tax:
V.. COMPETITIVE BALANCE TAX
a. The threshold level of $178 million in 2011 will remain unchanged in 2012 and 2013. The threshold will increase to $189 million for 2014, 2015, and 2016.
b. The tax rate will decrease to 17.5% for Clubs that exceed the threshold for the first time, and the rate will increase to 50% for Clubs that exceed the threshold for the fourth time or more.
Rates will remain the same for Clubs that exceed the threshold for the second time (30%) and
third time (40%). The CBT rates in 2012 will be subject to a transition rule.
c. The Competitive Balance Tax structure under the 2006 Basic Agreement will be modified so that
a team that moves below the threshold will be treated as going over for the first time when it next exceeds the threshold.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
COMPETITIVE BALANCE TAX
What? That will hurt the economy!
/oh wait, wrong blog
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
Also, by going that low this year, they leave themselves room to work with inside this years budget. Howards contract starts this year (and I think its 23 AAV, even though hes getting paid 20) but come 2014, when the limits go UP and he’s getting paid 25, he’ll only count for 23…
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
Greatest reliever in Phillies history. Other guys had better individual seasons (Tug ’80, Lidge ’08) but nobody was better for longer.
by dajafi on Jan 11, 2012 10:33 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Ron Reed!
Why look'st thou so?' -"With my crossbow
I shot the Albatross."
by RememberthePhitans on Jan 11, 2012 9:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Kent Tekulve (though mostly with the Pirates)
by Wet Luzinski on Jan 11, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
My favorite Madson moment was his huge strikeout of Manny Ramirez in the 8th inning of 2008 NLCS Game 1, at which I was in attendance. Unfortunately there’s no video of it on mlb.com, but it was a huge moment in a really stressful game.
Oh wait, there is video, and I must have misremembered the moment. Maybe the K was in one of the other games. In Game 1, Ramirez lined out to Feliz.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=3607894&c_id=mlb
schmenk, don’t clickit! The CBP remark’’ll angry up yer blood!
by Wet Luzinski on Jan 11, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
Sheesh, the way he describes how well the Dodgers hit the ball in the “bandbox,” they should have had at least 3 home runs.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, DLowe mystifyingly gives up dingerz, as highlight after highlight shows Hamels’ fly balls stay on green grass.
by Wet Luzinski on Jan 12, 2012 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
two games stick out for me, for some reason, both from 2010:
late in the regular season, when the Phillies had overtaken the Braves and were close to clinching… actually, it may have been the series when they did finally overtake the Braves… anyway, Madson comes in to a close-ish game against Florida, and strikes out Dan Uggla. I forget the game situation, but what I remember was Madson blew a fast ball right by Uggla, like 96 mph, and Uggla just could not believe it. He stared back at Madson in disbelief.
then, in the NLCS, game 5, when he struck out the side, the Giants’ three best hitters, in utterly dominating fashion
Callis:
To all those questioning Madson comp picks, I confirmed w/MLB that #Phillies get a sandwich pick and a pick before #Reds 2nd-rder. #mlbdraft
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Lawyers read real good.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jan 11, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
He clarified it in a reply to me here. I was wrong.
https://twitter.com/jimcallisba/status/157132171574906882
It is top 10 but not till next year.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
Wanna really get mad
14. Reds 2011 record 79-83
15. Indians 2011 record 80-82
16. Nationals 2011 record 80-81
1 win, 1 loss, was the difference between us picking 14th or 38th…
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
So they’ll have three picks in the first three rounds then, right? around 40, around 55, and around 70. Plus one more if anyone signs Ibanez.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/cliff_corcoran/01/11/hot.stove.roundup/index.html
Cliff Corcoran says we get the first rounder. Only guy saying its the second rounder is Callis.
Schoenfield ranks the NL East by position
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/19843/nl-east-showdown
Blanton getting mad disrespect.
Schoenfeld rankings
1. Mike Minor, Braves
2. Carlos Zambrano, Marlins
3. Dillon Gee, Mets
4. Chien-Ming Wang, Nationals
5. Joe Blanton/Kyle Kendrick, Phillies
2011 xFIP rankings
3.15 Blanton
3.62 Minor
4.17 Wang
4.34 Zambrano
4.42 Kendrick
4.46 Gee
There’s a lot more to life than 2011 xFIP, of course, but you can’t be THAT far off. Come on now.
Without looking I would venture to guess it’s better than at least half of the 3 and 4 starters too.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
Without looking up everyone else DIPS, my division-wide ranking would be:
1. Halladay 2. Lee 3. Johnson 4. Hamels 5. Strasburg (maybe) 6. Hanson (if healthy) 7. Gonzalez 8. Santana (though who knows really) 9. Beachy 10. Sanchez 11. Zimmermann 12. Buehrle 13. Hudson 14. Nolasco 15. Dickey 16. Blanton 17. Jurrjens 18. Worley 19. Minor 20. Niese 21. Wang 22. Lannan 23. Zambrano 24. Pelfrey 25. Gee
Just off the top of my head. Might revise with some more thought.
I was wrong.
2011 xFIP lower than Blanton’s 3.15
1. Grienke
2. Lee
3. Halladay
4. Kershaw
5. Hamels
6. Sabathia
7. Bumgardner
8. Verlander
9. Hernandez
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
To be fair, it was a small sample, and Blanton’s never been that good in the past. But the takeaway point is that there’s a very strong basis for presuming that his ERA was highly unlucky last year, and you’d have to be a flat-out idiot to rank him last among all 25 NL East starters.
He ranks Ramos ahead of Ruiz and then apologizes for it by saying he has “potential”. Lol basically does the same TGIF with Freeman over Howard.
But David Wright over Hanley, chipper and Polly is the absolute worst.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
I can live with Wright over Hanley, only because I have no idea what Hanley’s D will be at Third. Maybe it sucks and he moves to Center and Coghlan moves to Third (where he played in the Minors). I may be okay with him over Chipper (though that’s more personal grudge than anything factual).
Douche baggery aside, David Wright is not never was, and probably never will be as good as he who I can not name in a posite note.
and As far as Hanley goes, they oth suck defensively, but I’ll take Hanley over Wright any day.
"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP
Most ridiculous paragraph
Intangibles
1. Marlins
2. Phillies
3. Braves
4. Nationals
5. Mets
New stadium, new free agents, new manager, new uniforms — I view all of that as a plus for the Marlins. The playoffs left a sour taste for the Phillies’ veteran-heavy squad and those guys will want nothing more than to win a sixth straight division title. The Braves have plenty of incentive after their late-season collapse. The Nationals are young but have no chip on their shoulder. But if they sign Prince …
Think Miss USA Pageant, with similar credibility.
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Celebrating over 50 years of slightly more Phils wins than losses: 1961-2011
by schmenkman on Jan 11, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So whoever signs Fielder’s tits wins?
Why look'st thou so?' -"With my crossbow
I shot the Albatross."
by RememberthePhitans on Jan 11, 2012 9:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
They are his special talents, after all.
by Wet Luzinski on Jan 12, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
It’s simple. If you don’t include the intangibles section, the Nats are above the Marlins in the final tally. So he added that to get the order he wanted, instead of fudging the numbers in the highly scientific rankings above.
by topherstarr on Jan 12, 2012 9:28 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
looks like Madson has a mutual option with a buyout, so he’s getting more guaranteed than the just the 8.5
crasnick sez
“It’s very simple,” Boras said. “We never rejected any offer from Philadelphia at four years and $44 million. We advised Philadelphia that we would agree to such a proposal. And Philadelphia decided upon hearing that to go in a different direction.”
“There’s no reason for me to get into a public debate with Scott on this,” Amaro said. "I have no desire to do that. All I can tell you is, there was never an agreement, and we decided that we wanted to sign someone with the experience and the ability of Jonathan Papelbon. So we went that route.
will this mystery ever be solved dun dun dun
I would advice the Phillies that I’d be willing to come to the games for free, doesn’t mean they should let me in.
PS this is the second time (Lee in 09) that RAJ said a big F U to an agent after they came in with what he felt are ridiculous demands.
What were Lee’s demands exactly? If they were up around Halladay territory, then I would argue that we got a better value signing Roy from a financial standpoint (ignoring the Lee ’10 deal).
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 1:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hardball Times article on parsing Boras’ comments: link
But [Boras’] success does not come from blunt directness. It comes from deception, obfuscation and borderline flat-out lying. Boras knows where that borderline is, and he has no fear of going up to it and nudging his toes right up against that line. It’s what he gets paid so well to do.
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Celebrating over 50 years of slightly more Phils wins than losses: 1961-2011
“As many as eight major league teams have taken great risk in the closer role,” Boras said. “The game has shown many times that teams need closers with the efficiency to (convert) 85 percent of their save opportunities and the durability to make 60 appearances. Numerous teams didn’t follow those metrics as a criteria for a closer this offseason. They turned their back on the closer role.”
Thanks for sharing Scott.
FTFBoras
As many as eight major league teams havetaken great riskcalled my bluff and reduced my commission by realizing there is nothing particularly special in the closer role," Boras said.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
OT, McCovey Chronicles’ take on Bowker’s release.
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Celebrating over 50 years of slightly more Phils wins than losses: 1961-2011
Papelbon vs Madson
So you guys aren’t upset by this at all?
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 2:13 AM EST reply actions
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 2:27 AM EST up reply actions
Papelbon=Doosh
Aside from Papelbon being a doosh, I’m talking about the price.
Madson 1 year for 10 mil vs Papelbon for too many years and too much money.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 3:25 AM EST up reply actions
If you check out the comments there, while there’s a good bit of pushback against the doushiness of Papelbon, there’s a lot of displeasure about the contract too. It’s been a pretty consistent position round these parts, even before the Madson contract.
Weird
I was upset when the Mets signed K-Rod. If an equivalent RP left the team for a 1 year contract at 10 mil during the SAME OFFSEASON……
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 6:39 AM EST up reply actions
equivalence
Finally, it’s completely incorrect to say that Papelbon and Madson are “equivalent.” You can argue about contract value and length all you want, but there’s simply no colorable argument that Papelbon and Madson are in any way “equivalent.”
http://www.thegoodphight.com
Geezis
Back away from the PC, go smell some flowers and plant a tree man. I think you could use some re-uniting with nature.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
I can’t solve your problem man. All I can tell you is that is has nothing to do with me.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
And yet you’re still here.
P.S. WC is incapable of backing away from the PC. Everyone knows he’s a Mac user.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 10:15 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
They're freaking identical.
Come to think of it, have you actually ever seen them on the field together? Hmmmmm.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
Hmmmmm…not very likely two relief pitchers from opposing teams would be on the field at the same time.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 10:19 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Wow.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Thank you, thank you.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 10:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
*Looks for own comment*
:(
Yeah, that seems about right.
by philsandthrills on Jan 12, 2012 3:54 AM EST up reply actions
If you actually want a serious answer to your question, no we aren’t “upset” by this at all. We were annoyed when Papelbon’s contract terms were announced, but that was weeks ago. It’s been obvious for quite some time that Madson’s contract would turn out just as it has. Also, while this news reconfirms that the Phillies didn’t make the optimal decisions here, it doesn’t matter very much in the grand scheme of things. The Phillies still have the largest payroll in the National League and they are under market value on the vast majority of the contracts on their roster, including the veteran contracts, so we’re probably talking about costing a 100-win team a fraction of a win per year. No team’s front office is perfect so with minor stuff like this you just have to roll with it. We’ve had much larger disagreements with Amaro in the past and we’ll have much larger ones with him in the future.
by taco pal on Jan 12, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
well said… also, it’s not like the Phillies could have signed Madson for the same deal he got… if they’d waited it out, the market simply would have been different (frankly, if “closer” hadn’t bizarrely been their priority, the mysterious Madson deal probably wouldn’t have been in the air at all—by rushing in to even talk to Madson, they were already being too hasty, never mind what happened after)
According to Boras...
….he had a deal with Amaro for Madson of 4 years at 44 mil. Next thing he knew, Amaro had signed Papelbon. Madson ends up getting 1 year 10 mil.
This is as close to definitive proof we’ll ever get that a GM was bidding solely against himself.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Boras is also a lying sack of shit. Or at least he employs underhanded tactics to get his clients to sign big deal. I’m not sold that we ever had a deal in place for Madson.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 12:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, it’s something that RAJ vociferously denies.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
I’m guessing the truth is in the middle, and probably hinges on the strictness of the definition of the word “deal”.
You’re distracting from the point here and feeding the troll in the process. It’s as if you’re trying to concede that If Boras were telling the truth, that would be a reason for us to be upset with Ruben. But it wouldn’t. Yes it would show that Ruben made some bad decisions here, but they would be pretty minor errors in the grand scheme of things.
In fact, there is good reason to doubt Boras’ veracity here, but it really doesn’t even matter to the overall point one way or the other.
Thought you might find it interesting.
Has anyone ever introduced you to the wonders of yoga. The breathing exercises alone can change your life.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Here are some more tasks for you, SheaWasBettor.
1. Explain the statistical basis for your belief that Papelbon and Madson are “identical.”
2. Tell us how much money you think the Phillies will overspend per year on Papelbon’s contract relative to his actual on-field value, and explain the statistical basis for that calculation.
3. Calculate how many wins you esteimate the answer to #2 will be likely to cost the Phillies per year.
I think our discussion will be more fruitful and rational once you answer these questions. I’m sure that you have sound factual and statistical bases for all of your beliefs, and that you’re capable of explaining them intelligently (as opposed to just regurgitating ideas you vaguely remember reading on the Internet without fully understanding them or their premises).
by taco pal on Jan 12, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Logicdome
Listen all! This is the truth of it. Blogging leads to trolling, and trolling gets to banning. And that was damn near the death of us all. Look at us now! Busted up, and everyone talking about bad contracts! But we’ve learned, by the dust of them all… The Good Phight learned. Now, when men get to trolling, it happens here! And it finishes here! Two men enter; one man leaves.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jan 12, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I did answer it.
- My first response implies, “I don’t want to get into a discussion about conversational mechanics with you.”
- I shared something I’d read about, because I thought you would find it interesting as a Phillies fan. Most of the time when people share something, it’s because they themselves found it interesting, which is the case here. Based on the frequency of chats regarding contract negotiations I’ve seen on SBN, I thought the odds were pretty good Phillies fans would find it interesting, particularly those that chose to read our thread. You know, the one that repeatedly touches upon the contracts of 2 players specifically?
- It seems the story is being dismissed based on your opinion on Boras. That’s fine, nothing to get worked up over. Lots of unsubstantiated rumors and falsities about the events in this game are shared and discussed. I don’t necessarily agree, but again, my lack of a response regarding this implies, “I’m not interested in discussion your view of Boras.”
(As a side note, I personally do not think Boras would stretch the truth too far in the public. This man has been regularly negotiating contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars for years, and he has a reputation of being the best at it in this context. Someone with this kind of reputation has a lot to lose by potentially offending his customers by exaggerating the truth beyond reason. Add that long term, the owners and GMs have far more leverage than Boras does, and I infer Amaro’s actions reasonably lead Boras to believe he had a deal. I still happen to think some Phillies fans find this interesting. I find it interesting, and I’m not even a Phils fan.)
- I have no interest in comparing Madson and Papelbon for you. You have google. You have fangraphs. If you honestly have no idea how someone might conclude they are extremely similar, I am not interested in proving it to you, because the similarities are as clear as day for me. I can elaborate, but I don’t care enough to right now.
If your previous behavior is any indication, you will probably come back at me with another series of assumptions about my intentions, and use them as reason to say that I’m “trolling”. Frankly, this isn’t the normal tone of discussions I have with people, and I actually find your tone to be silly. I found it interesting, and I’d most certainly find it interesting if it involved my favorite team. That’s all.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
If you honestly have no idea how someone might conclude they are extremely similar
You didn’t say similar, weasel. You said identical. Don’t change your position in the middle of the argument and expect not to get caught. It’s very dishonest. Do you or do you not disagree with the notion that Papelbon is better than Madson? If you do disagree, why do you disagree?
I am not interested in proving it to you, because the similarities are as clear as day for me. I can elaborate, but I don’t care enough to right now.
Bullshit. Do you really think anyone would ever buy this garbage? You aren’t elaborating because you can’t, because you know you’ve been caught and are desperately trying to escape your own rhetorical mess. Try harder.
You have issues dude.
Honestly. You have serious, deep, very real problems.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
No he doesn’t. He’s just SICK OF THIS NONSENSE!!
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 7:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And why does someone calling you on your shit constitute deeply-rooted personal issues on his part?
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 7:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yoga.
Give it a shot.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
These yoga comments are really hurting my feelings, I’ll have you know. You mean some random asshole on the internet doesn’t like my personality? Sniff sniff. And he’s busting on me so creatively!
Not meant to hurt you.
It’s small suggestion to make this world a better place for all of us.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
Good. Now tell me:
1. Why do you think Papelbon and Madson are identical?
2. How much will the Phillies be overspending on Papelbon per year compared to Madson, and why?
3. How many wins will this overpayment cost the Phillies per year?
Complete honesty.
Based on your behavior, I’m going to abstain. 2 common options are to take it personally and get angry, or to simply respect my decision. I believe a person is defined by his/her actions, so you decide what kind of person you want to be.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
There are more options than just those two, I’m afraid. For example, I can simply observe that you’re not really being “honest”. And I can let you make your decision without “respecting” it. Your decision is to back out of a debate, knowing that you’re wrong, but putting up a front so you don’t have to admit it. If that’s what makes you happy, go for it.
Exhibit A
“Your decision is to back out of a debate, knowing that you’re wrong, but putting up a front so you don’t have to admit it.’
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
The way you’re going about this argument is actually making me laugh out loud.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 8:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Wonderful.
At least someone is enjoying the direction of this thread.
Baseball chats are supposed to be fun. Try to remember this.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
They're identical.
Happy? Is this fun for Taco Pal? Arguing semantics? Good.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 12, 2012 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
You think the difference between “similar” and “identical” is an issue of semantics? Actually, those two words have two different substantive meanings.
OK, now tell me what your basis is for believing that the two guys are identical. I know you’re “not interested” in doing that, but indulge me. I find it hard to believe that you’re willing to take the time to visit this page over and over again, enough to leave ten different comments here, but then when we get to actual baseball issue at the center of this conversation, you’re suddenly “not interested” in discussing it.
To be fair, while I don’t like how he’s been arguing, nor do I appreciate the repeated calls for you to try yoga (yoga is awesome, but the implication that you must, necessarily, be stressed or upset in order to make arguments is annoying), I do think the word “identical” was more of a rhetorical device.
That’s possible, but I gave him many opportunities to explain himself that way and he refused. So I just kept asking. Now, I’m sure he didn’t mean “identical” in the sense of them being carbon copies, but he may have meant that they’re deserving of nearly identical salaries, which I don’t think is right. I’m not saying it’s enough to justify a 3.5/year difference, but it mitigates it somewhat.
Wow.
That is all.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 13, 2012 8:36 AM EST up reply actions
It seems the story is being dismissed based on your opinion on Boras.
In this case, I’m going to charitable and conclude that you have difficulties with reading comprehension. If you would go back up and read more carefully, you would see that I did not “dismiss” the story. And while I do have some doubts as to Boras’ veracity, I explicitly stated that my point doesn’t depend on whether Boras was telling the truth or lying. Learn to read.
I don’t get trolled anymore. Life’s too short to let any idiot with a computer and free time piss me off.
But yeah, I guess it was a little off point. To be fair though, so was his response.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 12:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Is this actually a thing in Cincinnati?
by topherstarr on Jan 12, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
It just looks like a big ol’ bowl of intestinal distress to me.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Looks like there’s more cheese than there is chili.
by ThinMountainAir on Jan 12, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
All I know is it looks gooooood.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 12, 2012 1:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You say that like it’s a bad thing…
Bob.
by The Dark on Jan 12, 2012 10:11 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Wow. I must eat that. And it’s even microwaveable. Sadly, cheese is not included.
But what does “2-WAY” mean, there, on the side?
from wiki
Ordering Cincinnati chili is based on this series of ingredients: chili, spaghetti, grated cheddar cheese, diced onions, and kidney beans. The number before the “way” of the chili determines which ingredients are included in each chili order. Thus, customers can order a:
- Bowl: chili in a bowl
- Two-way: chili and spaghetti
- Three-way: chili, spaghetti, and cheese
- Four-way: chili, spaghetti, cheese, and onions
- Five-way: chili, spaghetti, cheese, onions, and beans
and optionally, the:
- Four-way bean: chili, spaghetti, cheese, and beans (beans substituted for the onions)
It’s like learning cheesesteak speak. It’s its own language, and decidedly more sexual in nature.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
by doubleh on Jan 12, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, this looks awesome, but you guys are going to have to back me up if Mrs. Topherstarr gets mad when she calls and I tell her I’m having a Cincinnati three-way.
by topherstarr on Jan 13, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
trouser chili
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jan 13, 2012 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Don’t some people worship this? The cheese reminds me of the halos in pre-Renaissance religious imagery, particularly Marian art. Could be a FSM religious image. Compare:
And this from much later (the 19th century) – query: Did Bourguereau collect plates from the Franklin Mint?:
Why look'st thou so?' -"With my crossbow
I shot the Albatross."
by RememberthePhitans on Jan 12, 2012 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
Father, Son, Dairy Ghost
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jan 12, 2012 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
Perks of the Dairy Ghost
Eli Lapp: You never had your hands on a teat before.
John Book: Not one this big.
Truth: The Amish LOVE potty/juvenile jokes like that.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jan 15, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
While the chili frightens me a bit, I have to give Cincinnati some credit in that one of the marks of a civilized city is that it has at least one signature food. Most MLB cities meet this standard, but a few don’t (Atlanta).
Got me thinking of ones that don't
Atlanta
Miami? (unless you include the Cuban cuisine, but that seems like cheating)
Tampa
Baltimore?
Houston
Dallas? (I can’t think of one. They have great steaks, but I don’t know if it’s a signature dish, per se)
Detroit
I think Cuban counts for Miami. Perhaps Joecatz can weigh in here.
Baltimore is crabcakes. I believe Detroit has some special kind of hot dog or something.
Otherwise I think you’re on target though.
Crabcakes, you’re right. I forgot about those.
Detroit’s signature hot dog is a coney dog. That feel like giving Dallas a signature food because a restaurant happens to serve Cheesesteaks.
OK let’s get sidetracked here…
Boston — CHOWDAH!
New York — Pretty much everything but the bagel is my top pick, or Jewish deli type foods generally.
Philadelphia – Cheesesteaks (for better or worse)
Balitmore – Crabs/crabcakes
Toronto – ?
DC – Ben’s Chili Bowl?
Pittsburgh – Primanti Bros.; perogies
Cleveland – ?
Cincinnati – Skyline Chili
Atlanta – ?
Tampa – ?
Miami – Cuban cuisine
Houston – Kind of a mess of BBQ and Tex-Mex influences, also Southern cuisine
Dallas – ?
St. Louis – ribs
Kansas City – BBQ generally
Chicago – deep dish / Italian beef
Minnesota – No idea
Milwaukee – SAUSAGES
Detroit – Coney Dog?
Denver – pot brownies
Phoenix – Mediocre Mexican. Geritol.
San Diego – fish tacos
Los Angeles – In-n-Out
San Francisco – Sourdough
Oakland – ?
Seattle – seafood/sushi
http://www.thegoodphight.com
by WholeCamels on Jan 13, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
Minnesota is walleye on a stick.
DC is a loser, I think. It can’t be a signature food if there’s only one place selling it, no matter how good it is.
The google says Toronto’s is the peameal bacon sandwich:
http://www.seriouseats.com/2011/02/peameal-bacon-sandwich-at-carousel-bakery-.html
Cleveland’s is mustard
The losers, in my view, are: DC, Atlanta, Tampa, Dallas, Houston, Denver, Phoenix
Stay the hell away of the Quizno’s in that airport.
That’s all I gotta say.
Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.
by TheOrangeCone on Jan 15, 2012 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
San Fran Garlic Fries. Real garlic. So good.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Chicago also has their own hot dog with like 70 things on it.
To me, Miami, Houston, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Seattle lose, as you don’t associate a specific food with those towns (maybe I’ll give Seattle seafood in general, since they have an iconic fish market and get all that great Alaskan seafood).
Also, I guess you could give Denver Rocky Mountain Oysters.
Would you eat those at a baseball game?
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Apparently Chipotle #1 and Qdoba #1 are both located in Denver. But nobody would say burritos are their signature food.
Denver (my second favorite US city)
Denver Omelet
Rocky Mountain Oysters
Western Sandwich (kind of the Denver Omelet in a sandwich form)
Mountain Pie (similar to Chicago Deep Dish, but Beau Jo’s is an awesome pizza)
The ballpark has something decadent called the TornaDOUGH.
by Wet Luzinski on Jan 16, 2012 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
That’s wherever Timmeh is playing
Bob.
by The Dark on Jan 17, 2012 12:23 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Baltimore wild card
The snow cone.
There are snow cones and then there are snow cones in Baltimore. You have not lived until you have had one in 4,000,000 degrees on a Baltimore August day with humidity so high you swim across the street in your own sweat. And the snow cone comes….with marshmallow on top. Some are made with egg custard. Snow cones in Baltimore are truly bizarre.
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/537232
Why look'st thou so?' -"With my crossbow
I shot the Albatross."
by RememberthePhitans on Jan 16, 2012 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
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