We're going to talk about how to hit in the count and when to take and when not to. We're not...

We're going to talk about how to hit in the count and when to take and when not to. We're not talking about walks. We don't teach nobody to walk. Hitting is offense."

- Charlie Manuel

4 months ago taco pal 19 comments 0 recs |

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FFS

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Jan 31, 2012 5:31 PM EST reply actions

I was talking about this over at Crashburn Alley—to the extent that this remark even makes any sense (“hitting is offense”?), I have a hard time believing Charlie Manuel doesn’t know the value of walks, and is here merely focusing on the working the count aspect. Knowing when to take and when not is going to lead to walks anyway, but the focus isn’t on that.

by yolacrary on Jan 31, 2012 8:24 PM EST reply actions

See to me I see this

Charlie: you got 2 guys on 2nd and 3rd, wait for your pitch. Let them work the count a little but be selective, he’s gonna try and come atcha and get you to bite to get behind. Don’t. Let him get behind. Look for a pitch to drive 1-0, but make sure it’s YOUR PITCH. 2-0 he’s gonna come back again, same thing, and if you get 3-0, and he tries to fool ya in your zone, smack it.

"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP

by Joecatz on Feb 2, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions

Is it me, or are the personalities on this team growing more and more towards caricature with each passing day? If you would have written this line for Charlie in a satire, I think I probably would have panned it as going too far.

by Trev223 on Jan 31, 2012 11:52 PM EST reply actions

he sounds an awful lot like the As manager before Brad Pitt traded his best player

"My grandmom's favorite grandson, ask my grandmom" --Rone

by layout ultimate on Feb 1, 2012 12:32 AM EST reply actions

Hilarious Hugh Laurie photos aside, I think Charlie is just sick of being asked about walks. I got that feeling from Charlie and Gross last year.

Charlie’s philosophy has always been “get a pitch to hit.” The logical conclusion of working the count so you “get a pitch to hit” is that if that pitch never comes, take the walk. And traditionally, Charlie’s lineups have been pretty good at taking walks. Hell, they took the fifth most walks in the NL last year, so it’s not like they are just up there hacking away all the time.

But I think he’s annoyed that in every interview he gets asked why they don’t take more walks, and I think he’s even more annoyed that his hitters don’t get a fastball when they’ve worked a hitter’s count and they “deserve” it.

by topherstarr on Feb 1, 2012 8:42 AM EST reply actions

yeah, I agree… especially like the idea that he’s “even more annoyed that his hitters don’t get a fastball when they’ve worked a hitter’s count and they "deserve" it.”

I think it’s in this way that the game has changed, somewhat radically, and in just the last three years.

by yolacrary on Feb 1, 2012 8:53 AM EST up reply actions

In regards to how the game has changed, the video scouting apps and similar technology seem to help pitchers more than hitters, which shouldn’t be surprising.

The other thing that is probably frustrating (in the offseason at least) is that the questions often are based on what happened in a five game series, which is foolish enough. And then, they are based on a false perception of what really happened in the St. Louis series.

There is this idea that the Stl batters just stood there and tried to walk. Without looking at the numbers, it should be pretty obvious that trying to walk is the stupidest strategy anyone could ever take against Halladay and Lee and Hamels (1, 2, 5 in the NL for fewest BB/9. Oswalt would have been around 14 if he had enough innings to qualify, right behind Chris Carpenter).

Here are the numbers for the series, though.

Stl batters walked 12 times and struck out 45 times.
Phi batters walked 8 times and struck out only 29 times.

The stat I haven’t been able to find is foul balls, but that seemed to be the way the Stl hitters ran up the pitch counts (especially on Hamels). I also have no clue if fouling pitches off is a skill or not, but it doesn’t really matter. I’m pretty certain that St. Louis didn’t win that series by trying to walk. And if Charlie is being asked questions based on the premise that the Phillies were eliminated because the Cardinals were better at working walks, I can’t blame him for being annoyed.

by topherstarr on Feb 1, 2012 9:43 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs

agreed; good comment

is fouling balls off a skill? good question… I think someone looked into that in the offseason, and determined no… the Phillies happened to put balls in play that the Cardinals were fouling off

by yolacrary on Feb 1, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions

I have no problem with this comment from Charlie.

Walks are a useful side effect of a good hitting approach and plate discipline, not a goal in and of themselves.

by phatj on Feb 1, 2012 7:04 PM EST reply actions

The most important thing a batter can do is get on base. Which means that walks are more than a “useful side effect”, IMO.

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Celebrating over 50 years of slightly more Phils wins than losses: 1961-2011

by schmenkman on Feb 2, 2012 9:14 AM EST up reply actions

Sounds useful to me.

by phatj on Feb 2, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions

I mean, it’s a side effect in the sense that nobody goes up to the plate intending to try to work a walk.

What would you call it?

by phatj on Feb 2, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions

If the pitcher seems to be incapable of throwing strikes, then I intend to work a walk. I’m not going to try and get a hit off a guy who’s continually burying fastballs in the dirt.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Feb 2, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions

true, but how if is it really the case that the pitcher has simply lost the zone? yes, players need to recognize that when that’s the case, they should probably wait till he finds it again before swinging… but in normal circumstances, batters do not go up to the plate looking for a walk

by yolacrary on Feb 2, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions

just noticed the typo above…. “how if” = “how often”

by yolacrary on Feb 2, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions

I think of walks as an integral way to meet the overall goal of getting on base. But I agree in that working a walk is typicall not the objective when you go up to bat.

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Celebrating over 50 years of slightly more Phils wins than losses: 1961-2011

by schmenkman on Feb 2, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions

I don’t read the same thing from this comment as some do, maybe because of my background.

He’s talking about getting his guys to be more selective, which is a good thing. The fundamental key to hitting is plate discipline. Even saber metrically speaking, it’s rare that you’ll find a batter with better statistics behind in the count rather than ahead.

He’s talking about working a count, and also being selective enough to turn a count in your favor. It’s nballplayer lingo, but I don’t get anything negative from it personally.

"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP

by Joecatz on Feb 2, 2012 6:45 PM EST reply actions