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Cole Hamels: How Much Is Too Much?

Think hard.

We've been pretty close to unanimous around here in believing that the Phillies should do whatever it takes to persuade Cole Hamels to sign a contract extension -- myself included. But lately I've been starting to wonder if we ought to be a bit more circumspect about this. Anyone can be overpaid, and some of the numbers that have been thrown around in connection with Hamels might be edging rather close to the line.

This is not to suggest that Hamels is anything but an outstanding pitcher. Last year, he was 7th in the NL in ERA, 9th in FIP, 7th in SIERA, and 5th in xFIP (of 75, min. 100 IP). He just had his 28th birthday last week. And he's suffered no major injuries in his big league career, just some nagging ones here and there. So he's clearly worth a lot of money. On top of all that, if there's a part of you that's rooting for him to get his payday because of how he's been mistreated or underappreciated by the fans at times in his career, then that's also very understandable. I don't think Hamels is underappreciated today, but he was certainly the recipient of a lot of unjust abuse back in 2009, and there would be something poetic about stamping out the haters one last time.

Nevertheless, here are four points that should perhaps give us pause.

1. Hamels has never broken 5 fWAR in any year of his career.

Here are Hamels' fWARs since 2007, his first full season in the majors: 3.8, 4.4, 3.6, 3.7, and 4.9. That's an average of 4.1 per year, which would be worth a little over $18 million in 2011 dollars, according to Fangraphs. The career-high 4.9 that he posted last year at age 27 was worth $22.1 million.

That's nothing to sneeze at. If you're worth $18 million, then you're pretty darn good. But the numbers I've been hearing for Hamels have been $20 million per year, minimum, and probably higher than that. Will that really be worth it? You've got to at least feel some trepidation about that question.

(WAR is somewhat problematic for pitchers because it's derived from FIP, and over his career, Cole has generally posted better xFIPs than FIPs. That wasn't the case in 2011 though, when his FIP and xFIP were only 0.03 apart, so it's still legitimate to say that he's never broken 5.)

I think we can surmise that if Hamels does sign an extension, his per-year salary will be in the same ballpark as his current per-year value. That means that the wisdom of the extension from the organization's perspective will be dependent on one question: Which risk is greater? (A) The upside risk that Hamels will continue to improve and/or that there will be substantial salary inflation. Or (B) The downside risk that Hamels will fall off or get hurt.

And I suspect that the latter is greater. See points 2 and 3 below.

2. Hamels probably doesn't have that much "upside" left because he isn't that young anymore.

I think we sometimes feel like Cole is younger than he really is just because most of his teammates are older in comparison. But his DOB is 12-27-83, meaning he's young but not that young. He's probably right in the middle of his prime. So while he isn't likely to go into decline for a long while yet, he also isn't terribly likely to improve much more. Chances are that if he hasn't reached his peak, he isn't far from it.

Note that I said "likely." Clearly, strange things happen in this game from time to time. When Cliff Lee was the same age, he'd barely accumulated 9.0 fWAR over about four seasons worth of major league starts. Then, the next year, he won the AL CYA and he hasn't looked back since. Still, that kind of thing is unusual. It's encouraging that Hamels had his best season ever last year at age 27, and it's possible that he'll turn into a 6 or 7 WAR pitcher at age 28 or 29 or 30, but I don't think you'd want to bet a ton of money on that.

Again, there's nothing wrong with what Hamels already is. If he's "only" likely to stay around his current level for the next few years, then he's likely to be an excellent pitcher for the next few years. But if his average salary is going to be commensurate with his current level, and if his potential "upside" of improving beyond that level is low, then his expected value will fall short of the cost of the contract unless his "downside" risk is equally low -- and I don't think it is (see point 3).

Star-divide

3. Hamels' downside risk is fairly low but it isn't insignificant.

In comparing Hamels' upside risk to his downside risk, we need to look at two things: the probability of a step up or down, and the potential magnitude of a step up or down. I think the probability of Hamels declining or getting hurt is smaller than the probability of further improvement -- but not by that much. And the potential magnitude of a step down is way bigger than the potential magnitude of a step up.

It isn't a new insight to point out that pitchers are inherently risky, even those who have no injury histories. Recall that in January 2007, Freddy Garcia was thought to be one of the most durable pitchers in all of MLB, and you know what happened after that. Even very durable pitchers are only durable until they aren't. And in any event, Hamels does have an injury history of sorts. Not in the majors, but when he was a prospect, he had lots of yellow flags around him. In high school, he broke his pitching arm and slipped in the draft because of it. The injury probably happened in a game of street football, but he was unaware of it until his humerus snapped on the mound while he was throwing a pitch, a la Tom Browning or Tony Saunders. Then in the minors, the Phillies' developmental staff (appropriately) treated him with kid gloves, and he missed a lot of games with injuries. One of those injuries was fluky, as it was the result of a bar fight, but only one. In 2004, he was limited to 16.0 IP all year because of left elbow tendinitis. I realize that this history is ancient now, and maybe it's 98% irrelevant today. But I don't think it's 100% irrelevant.

Also, I note that Hamels' top two comps on Baseball-Reference are John Smiley and Greg Swindell. Those are two names I remember very clearly because they were both free agents in the 1992-1993 offseason, and the Phillies' front office got torched in the media for failing to go after either of them (or Doug Drabek, the other big FA pitcher on the market that year). Instead, the Phillies made a much less ambitious move by acquiring Danny Jackson, a fourth starter, via trade. As it turned out, Jackson had an okay year and the Phillies won the 1993 pennant. Meanwhile, Smiley and Swindell both fell off a cliff and performed horribly with their new teams. Smiley later bounced back and posted very good seasons in 1995 and 1996, but he suffered a career-ending injury (a broken humerus, actually) in late 1997 at age 33. Swindell was reincarnated a few years later as an effective relief pitcher, but he never had success as a starter again.

No one puts a great deal of stock in B-R comps and there are lots of specific reasons to discount them here. For one thing, the early '90s were a very different era. Swindell, in particular, was overworked like crazy when he was young, while the Phillies in general and Charlie Manuel in particular have been much more conscientious with Cole. (I sometimes wonder how much the current MLB-wide drop in offense and glut in pitching are attributable to teams having been much more cautious with their prospects' pitch counts in recent years.) Still, the comps are legit data points, and worth taking into account, at least a little bit.

In the final analysis, I doubt that Hamels is much more of a risk to fall apart than the average pitcher his age -- if he is, it's only by a slight margin. But even if the probability of a crash is low, the magnitude of the harm that it would inflict upon the team would be enormous -- it would basically mean $20 million per year down the tubes. Yes, the same could be said of any pitcher, but the beauty of the Roy Halladay contract and, to a lesser extent, the Cliff Lee deal is that this risk is priced into their terms. If Lee were to fall off a cliff (no pun intended), it would be equally catastrophic, but his contract is arguably worth the risk because if Lee stays healthy and doesn't decline much, then the Phillies get to pay only $24 million per year for a guy who's proven multiple times that he's able to perform at a level approaching $30 million per year. But that might not be the case with Hamels.

4. It might be more efficient to budget the money to be used on a hitter instead of a pitcher.

From where I stand, the Phillies' farm system seems to be a lot deeper in pitching prospects than position player prospects right now. If that's the case, it might make more sense to devote more money, at the margins, to hitters rather than pitchers.

Doing that might make more sense even if Hamels is better than the best position player alternative on a straight one-to-one comparison. Here's what I mean by that:

Let's say Hamels is willing to sign a $20 million/year deal, while his annual expected value over the next X number of years is $21 million. Let's also say that some hitter out there (we'll call him Zyan Rimmerman) is willing to sign for exactly the same contractual terms, but his expected value is only $19 million per year. If these are the only facts we have to go on, then you should clearly choose Hamels.

But now let's say that if Hamels leaves, the Phillies have a 75% chance of filling his vacancy with a homegrown prospect who will perform at a league-average level. Whereas, if they fail to sign Rimmerman, they have only a 25% chance of filling that void with a prospect who will be league-average. That changes the analysis because signing Hamels for $20 million = signing Hamels and a hitter for $20 million plus the cost of a second market-priced contract. Signing Rimmerman, meanwhile, is likely to cost the $20 million only, because you have the minimum-salary youngster to fill the pitching void. (Theoretically, you could sign Hamels and then try to trade your pitching prospect for a hitting prospect. But that's risky.)

This hypothetical scenario is admittedly oversimplistic, but still, of the sixteen Phillies prospects that John Sickels graded at C+ or better this offseason, twelve are pitchers, and only one of the four hitters (Sebastian Valle) played a full season of minor league ball in 2011. Devoting your next $20 million to a pitcher -- even an excellent one -- might not be the optimal strategy based on the odds.

* * * *

To be clear, I am not saying that the Phillies shouldn't sign Hamels to an extension. I'm just saying that it's a trickier situation than I, at least, originally thought. If $20 million is the minimum the organization needs to offer to even get into negotiations with Cole's agent (maybe it is, maybe it isn't), then they need to exercise some caution.

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Justin Verlander was worth 5/$80. Jered Weaver was worth 5/$85. I think both those guys are just slightly better than Hamels, but barely. If Hamels were to get a contract like these, I’d be very happy with it.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Jan 5, 2012 2:38 PM EST reply actions  

yeah, I was thinking those are better comps for Hamels

by yolacrary on Jan 5, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

If Hamels can be had for that much, then you can definitely sign me up. But Verlander’s contract is two years old (some inflation since then), and the Tigers were buying out two arbitration years, not just one.

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Weaver’s contract is pretty nice though. Looks like he gave the Angels a bargain.

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I believe popular opinion on the deal was that he gave up quite a bit of money in signing that extension.

by philsandthrills on Jan 5, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

How many arbitration years did the Angels buy out?

by topherstarr on Jan 5, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

philly.com link I was just looking at said 1. I guess he wasn’t a super two despite pitching a lot in 2006?

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Just curious, TP (and others) what would be your ceiling for Hamels? I’m guessing most would agree Hamels is unlikely to agree to a number lower than Weaver’s 5/$85

by topherstarr on Jan 5, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I dunno. Maybe 21 per? 20.5? Anything 20 and above and I start to get uncomfortable.

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Anybody know offhand when teams and players need to trade arbitration figures? I’m thinking they have to at least work out what they are doing for 2012 pretty soon.

by topherstarr on Jan 5, 2012 3:04 PM EST reply actions  

Last year it was around Jan. 20 or so

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Excellent post.

Well, they certainly do need to excercise caution with large contracts. Good point, though, about the situation looking different under close inspection.

That said, based on Hamels’ track record, I’d offer him $20M per year right now, and if that means we can’t sign Zyan Rimmerman in 2014, and have to experiment with Greddy Flavis or Gyler Treene instead, I’m still willing to go that route.

by Phrozen on Jan 5, 2012 3:14 PM EST reply actions  

Long response ahead

While I certainly like the premise, and it does challenge one of the widely-held beliefs here on this site, I do find that arguing against a 20 million/yr minimum takes away from the article. I don’t think anyone believes this is truly the minimum necessary to keep Cole around, especially if his arbitration year is taken up as part of an extension. 90 million over five years, I would say, is closer to the bare minimum that Cole would conceivably sign for, and most list 20 million/yr as a reasonable midpoint. Then again, I may merely be projecting my thoughts onto the fan base as a whole, but regardless, I think this is a fair point.

Now as for the first point, I think you yourself have stated several times (and do acknowledge in your post) that using fWAR is basically equivalent to using FIP with ballpark and league adjustments. While this is okay, it’s certainly not optimal. In Cole’s case, however, it probably affects projections of his future value more than most. FIP doesn’t negate HR/FB% or account for it in any way, and Cole’s career 11.5% is well above league average. Additionally, Cole since 2009 has been trending upward in GB%, which if sustained would lead to far fewer HRs going forward. If this is due to his development of a cutter, which seems to be a quite plausible explanation, than it needs to be taken into account. As such, I’d tend to lean towards viewing his 2011 as the mid-point of his projection going forward.

As for his upside, again, I’d tend to be a bit more optimistic than you. His control in 2011 was certainly the best of his career, but his strikeout rate was assuredly not. If he could retain his remarkable control while matching say, his 2010 K-rate, then he’d be approaching elite-elite numbers. Additionally, he’ll likely be able to pitching slightly more innings than he has in the past. Charlie has always coddled him in comparison to the way he treats Halladay or even Lee. Cole has certainly been capable of going longer in starts, and whether or not it’s good practice to leave him, I imagine that he’ll be allowed to go longer and throw more pitches. Just to numerically quantify this difference, I’ll give the median number of pitches per start for Lee, Halladay, and Hamels. Cole is at an even 100, Lee is at 109, and Halladay is at 112. While some of this is due to effectiveness, a lot of it is Charlie’s own decision. Going forward, I would expect much of this difference to disappear.

I don’t really have any quibble on the downside risk, but with the 4th point I can’t find a whole lot of agreement. Within the Phillies system, they really don’t have anyone particularly noteworthy that will be ready before at least 2014. And even given a great number of pitching prospects, a team must always account for the TNSTAAPP principle. Hoping for more than say, 2 good starters out of all the Phillies’ current pitching prospects is just overstating the quality and likelihood of the Phillies’ system. For even one of Trevor May, Jesse Biddle, Julio Rodriguez, Jonathan Pettibone, Brody Colvin, Ervis Manzanillo, Lisalberto Bonilla, Perci Garner, Kevin Walter, and so on, to match Hamels’ current level of performance would be a surprise. Cole Hamels is an ace, homegrown and all, and that’s just a very rare commodity. By the time the Phillies would be bringing up newer pitchers, 2014, Halladay and Lee would be 36 and 37 respectively, and on the decline. Hamels would still only be approaching the end of his prime, guaranteeing that if he stayed healthy the Phillies would have a top of the line starter. Additionally, there’s little harm in having two or three ace-level starters, as a team can use up to four in the playoffs. Finally, regardless of whether the value is being added on offense or defense, it’s being added, and net run differential, not balance, is what makes teams great.

However, beyond all that, not signing Hamels in order to leave an opening for a potential FA signing seems like an odd way to operate. Even if it wasn’t Zyan Rimmerman in particular, or even a 3B, you have to account for the possibilities that the FA market doesn’t develop quite as you predict it will a few years down the line, or even that desirable FA’s may choose to sign elsewhere. While the Phillies should certainly look to be cautious when doling out large contracts, they certainly have the financial standing to sign a homegrown ace for nearly 20 million a year without really restricting their future plans much if any.

by philsandthrills on Jan 5, 2012 3:31 PM EST reply actions  

I feel like I’m obligated to ironically rage at you in response.
Seriously though, thanks for that. I think that argument and discussion are really key when trying to get the full picture. And this site is great for that.

by philsandthrills on Jan 5, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Also: Pee-pee, doo-doo, butts and balls

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Jan 5, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair points.

I did mention the WAR-xFIP issue in the post though (3rd paragraph under #1), and in 2011 the distinction didn’t matter. Anyway, I kind of had to use WAR here just because there’s no easy way to convert xFIP into $, and it’s potential contract terms that I was trying to evaluate.

On Cole becoming elite-elite, usually there’s a bit of a tradeoff between being elite at GB% and elite at K% – very rare to be able to combine the two. So it doesn’t surprise me that Cole didn’t have his best K year in his best GB year. It looks like he got the better end of that tradeoff, so I’m not criticizing him for that, but there is a negative correlation between those two things, so I think it’s overly optimistic to think that since he was great at one in Year 1 and great at the other in Year 2, maybe he’ll be great at both in Year 3 (though I certainly hope that happens).

On the prospects issue, you’re absolutely right that the Phillies could very easily come up empty from their stable of minor league Ps, but I think the important issue here is relative probability. Pitchers are riskier than hitters, but when you have 12 pitchers and 4 hitters, I think the odds are still better for the former than the latter.

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

And on WAR-xFIP I skipped over the part where you said I acknowledged it. Woopsie. Anyway, my back of the envelope calculation is that Cole’s average career WAR would be somewhere to 4.5 or so if WAR used xFIP, but he still would never have broken 5. That calculation could be totally wrong though.

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

When I was stating the possibility that he improve his strikeout rate while maintaining his control and groundball rate, I only did so to demonstrate that his upside would merely be combining his past performance in a skill with his certain performance in other skills. While this is optimistic, I’d say it’s more likely than projecting someone who’d never surpassed 8.0K/9 to approach a 9.0 K/9. His upside is still not all that likely, but it’d be fairly significant development and isn’t totally out of line. I’m not sure this balances the injury risk, but given a 4.5-5.0 fWAR baseline, I’m not sure it’d have to.

And again with the prospects, I think my major qualm was that you sort of followed the fallacy that focusing all your production in pitching is somehow less valuable than balancing it between pitching and position players. The Phillies won’t be getting 3 or 4 minimum-salary aces, and as such will have room for whatever prospect develops even with Hamels in the fold.

by philsandthrills on Jan 5, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the pitching/hitting balance issue is a little different.

I’m not saying that hitting is more valuable than pitching here because the Phillies are otherwise better at pitching. I’m saying that the difference between a hitter and the alternative is likely to be larger than the difference between Hamels and his alternative. The first statement would be a logical fallacy, but I don’t think the second one is.

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

The thing I’m saying is that it’s not Hamels or his alternative vs. hitter or his alternative. You can have Hamels and the pitching prospects, you don’t have to choose one or the other.

by philsandthrills on Jan 5, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Is your argument, basically, that that isn’t the correct tradeoff here because there are five spots in the rotation?

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, I get it. Maybe a better way to put the tradeoff would be:

1. $20 million for Hamels + (100-X%) (market rate for a FA hitter) where X = probability of developing a hitter from the farm
vs.
2. $20 million for FA Hitter + (100-(A*B*C*D*E)%) (market rate for a FA SP) where A = prob. of developing a SP, B = prob. of developing a second SP, C = prob. that Worley doesn’t pull a Happ, D = prob. of Halladay staying healthy, E = prob. of Lee staying healthy

Or something like that.

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that pretty much encapsulates all my objections on the matter. The only other thing I could add is that pitching prospects, when they approach being ready for the majors, have more possibilities to be trade pieces, as starting pitching is a common need among all teams.

by philsandthrills on Jan 5, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Who the F is Rimmerman?

Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.

That is all.

by EREX21 on Jan 5, 2012 3:42 PM EST reply actions  

folk singer from Minnesota

by yolacrary on Jan 5, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

People went batshit went he went electric.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 5, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I just hope people don’t start calling him “Rimmy.” That would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Jan 5, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

...

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Jan 5, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

one of the greatest movies ever made.

Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months.

-Oscar Wilde

by VanceinmyPants on Jan 5, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Regarding FIP/xFIP in WAR

Matt Swartz has an interesting article up at Fangraphs today.

A comment on that article related to the discussion at hand:

Dekker says:
January 5, 2012 at 1:46 pm
fWAR properly takes in account ballpark factors to largely neutralize the HR/FB luck.

Anyone know anything about that? I’ve heard the argument many times that the flaw in fWAR is that it doesn’t properly account for HR/FB luck. This is the first time I’ve heard this park factors angle, though.

by topherstarr on Jan 5, 2012 3:54 PM EST reply actions  

I don’t think that HR/FB variation is entirely or even mostly due to ballpark. Or at least, I’ve never heard that claimed before.

by philsandthrills on Jan 5, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m guessing he was just using “largely” more loosely than that. I have no idea what the actual breakdown is, but if ballpark is 30 or 40 percent of HR/FB, then “largely” would be accurate enough even if it isn’t the majority.

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Even then, I think the ballpark wouldn’t really affect variation all that much excepting the case of a player moving from one park to another. If pitcher A has a 12% FB/HR in year 1 and has a 8% HR/FB in year 2 in the same ballpark, how much effect could the ballpark really have had? The ballpark itself would affect the absolute value that would be varied from, not the variation itself, in my mind at least.

by philsandthrills on Jan 5, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I call bullshit
If Lee were to fall off a cliff (no pun intended)

by Cormican on Jan 5, 2012 5:23 PM EST reply actions  

I have this lame hunch

that we wont resign Cole. He will then wind up signing back in California with the newly owned Joe Torre Dodgers. Damn.

by pf289 on Jan 5, 2012 5:50 PM EST reply actions  

Great point counterpoint here, and when I get home tonight I’ll probably delve a little deeper into this but for now two things to consider, from my point of view:

1) traditionally, Elite Pitchers hit their prime LATER than position players, usually around 31 or 32. I would argue that Hamels is actually closer to the beginning of his prime than the middle. Factor in the left handedness, and 20mm per for 5 years is perhaps a better deal than we think.

2) I think its less about the AAV as it is the length of the deal hes looking for. I know everyone is thinking he’ll want a 5 year deal, but what if he wanted 3/70 so he could hit the market again when he’s 30 as opposed to 32? I’d think log and hard about that, and probably jump at it.

"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP

by Joecatz on Jan 5, 2012 6:27 PM EST reply actions  

Good points all around, both by TP and Philsandthrills. To run the risk of calling this whole argument irrelevant (and that is not my intention here) I feel that really both arguments don’t really swing the numbers that Cole should expect to get unless some team wildly overpays for him. A Rollins-style deal for Cole would work out beautifully, in my opinion.

All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia

by Veni Vidi Vici on Jan 5, 2012 8:26 PM EST reply actions  

TP,

I’m curious. Using your scenario and assuming they take the money set for Hamels and use it for a hitter, what would you propose as a solution for the 3,4,5 slots in the rotation?

Are you figuring banking on Worley and two of the young guys (perhaps Hyatt et al until the Clearwater guys are ready) or do you see a less expensive proven number 3/4 starter at say 5-7mm per plus Worley and a young gun?

Or is it more likely that they end up going after someone they can pay 13-16 per for in that slot and go after a hitter at a comparable rate? My feelings are that the powers that be would be more likely to try and get two above average (read overpaid) marquee types

"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP

by Joecatz on Jan 5, 2012 8:54 PM EST reply actions  

Hadn’t really thought about it, but certainly Worley would be one of them, provided he doesn’t pull a Happ this year (and I don’t think he will).

Otherwise, I think it would probably be better to start with one prospect and one stopgap for 4-5, but this is a decision that wouldn’t need to be made right away, so you’d have some time to look at the prospects in-season and assess their progress. I definitely wouldn’t want to do the middling hitter + middling pitcher thing though.

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Neither would I but I could see Raj doing just that.

see, for me, thats why I’m okay with an overpayment for Hamels. I think it takes the option away and gives them that much less to spend on a bad decision. Its one thing if Grienke and Cain both hit the market too, but if they do, you can bet Boston, NY, Miami, maybe even Texas will be in on them and you’ll end up paying 20 per for them too.

So where does RAJ turn? David Wright and Fausto Carmona? Andre Ethier and Dan Haren? Nick Swisher and Shaun Marcum?

Thats my fear with your scenario. I agree with most everything you’ve said, I just hope it doesn’t happen.

I just can’t see us going into 2014 with a 3-4-5 or Worley, a stopgap and Austin Hyatt.

"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP

by Joecatz on Jan 5, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

You know I take a backseat to no one in my criticism of Amaro, but isn’t he more of a “go after the one big name” type? He’s made some bad decisions, but when he does, they follow a predictable pattern that doesn’t really fit what you’re fearing, I don’t think.

In any event, if we’re living in an fantasy universe where we get to make the decision on Hamels, then we’re also in a fantasy universe where we get to make the decision on his replacement. We don’t have to be afraid of what Ruben would do on part two – that’s outside the scope.

But hopefully he and Cole just make it easy and sign for $19 per or something like that, then we can just forget about the whole thing.

by taco pal on Jan 6, 2012 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair points indeed.

"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP

by Joecatz on Jan 6, 2012 6:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Andre Ethier and Dan Haren?

I’d rather have Hamels, but that option isn’t terrible.

by Cormican on Jan 6, 2012 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Bat Purrell is a good iteration of this for hitters.

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait, I think somebody said this before

by taco pal on Jan 5, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Couldn’t say when or where, or who, but somebody did.

Purell bottle and all.

by Phrozen on Jan 6, 2012 2:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Bone Chips in His Elbow

No mention of his elbow surgery here. Given the ambiguity with which baseball injuries are reported, I think this is a cause for concern. It was his throwing elbow. The Phils have seen the inside of his elbow. Perhaps this may play a larger role in their decision then they are letting on.

Most arguments are really about context.

by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 5, 2012 10:30 PM EST reply actions  

Hamels has thrown a lot of innings in recent years but seems to have been plenty durable. He supposedly was pitching with some elbow soreness this year but had one of the best years of his career. It may raise a flag, but it certainly hasn’t had a big impact on his performance. A (slight) overpayment may not be the worst thing in the world, especially if he remains effective and becomes more effective through the next two seasons or so. The fans here love him (and that does mean something).

In terms of pitching prospects, it seems to me that they have a much less likely chance of panning out than position prospects. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be valued, but you can’t expect the level of success that Hamels has had over his career and hopefully in his future despite the scouting projections. I haven’t had the same level if bad taste that some of you have had on RAJ trades these past several seasons, but I do think this is a year the Phillies really need to hang onto their prospects unless the return is drastic.

by Mattypmp on Jan 6, 2012 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

You’re missing the point. There aren’t any position prospects.

by taco pal on Jan 6, 2012 1:32 AM EST up reply actions  

No, I got that. I may not have communicated it very well, but I want to farm system to develop, draft and hold onto more position prospects. You wrote about the Phillies having far more pitching prospects than position prospects (12-4) but I think those position prospects are more important. They need to hold onto guys like Brown and see how they translate moreso than they need to hold onto pitching prospects (which they have a good amount). It doesn’t always work out so well, like trading Gio for Garcia in 2007 (which I thought was stupid considering that they only traded for Gio a year earlier and Buehrle was supposedly on the table).

The Phils have a great team going into this year though. They really really need to leave the farm system along.

by Mattypmp on Jan 6, 2012 2:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Regarding Point 2 and his age:

Colebert is the major Phillie to approach free agency who is younger than I am…. I find the notion that he is approaching the point at which he will start being referred to as “not that young” to be… grim.

As far as what our threshold is for salary/years, off the top of my head I’d say I’m alright up to $95/5.

It’s a lot, and it is a risk with some potential pitfalls (very well articulated by TP), but personally, I’ve been incredibly impressed with the player he’s developed into, I feel as if hasn’t yet even reached his ceiling, he handled what was essentially a demotion from #1 starter to #3 (I know how that sounds, but look around the league – there are a lot of guys who would have had an issue with it), and yes, he did weather a ton of shite from the WIP crowd with aplomb.

He’s a relatively young, homegrown guy with a great work ethic, good stuff, great makeup, and enough potential upside that I’d be willing to take the chance and invest in him.

by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Jan 6, 2012 8:20 AM EST reply actions  

Ha, deal with it, youngling. At 44 I’m left with Rocky V-like characters like Jamie Moyer, and the grim task of improving my chess game.

by Wet Luzinski on Jan 7, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

The power of art


Duchamp found that chess is better with titties. Performance art chess adds a layer of sophistication to the dirty old man image.

by j reed on Jan 7, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Chess with titties. Fantastic. Rivals Chess-Boxing for incongruity.

by Phrozen on Jan 7, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

And Modern Art.

That piece behind them is Duchamp’s famous The Large Glass which resides in the Philadelphia Museum of Art’s permanent collection. Our Duchamp collection is world renowned and considered the definitive Duchamp collection by many art historians.

by j reed on Jan 8, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

                     Chess with Titties = Chessty



________]————
_____________]————
_________________]————-
______________________]————

__________________________]——————————————-dada————yoyo
_________________________________]——————————wawa————balbowa




by j reed on Jan 8, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

images
1. Mark Kauffman, Artist Marcel Duchamp being viewed through glass of his major work The Bride Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors, Even. Silver gelatin photograph. Time Life Pictures, Jan. 1, 1965.
2. Arnold Rosenberg, Marcel Duchamp playing chess on a sheet of Glass. Silver gelatin photograph, (11 × 14 inches). 1958.
3. Altered image. Hannah Wilke, Hannah Wilke Through the Large
Glass
. Still from 10 min, color, silent, 16 mm film of performance at the Philadelphia Museum of Art, June 15, 1976.
4. Unknown author. Detail from the lower half of the The Bride Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors, Even (also known as The Large Glass) at the Philadelphia Museum of Art.
5. Altered image. Unknown author. Detail from the lower half of the The Bride Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors, Even (also known as The Large Glass) at the Philadelphia Museum of Art.
6. Altered image. Unknow author. Detail from the top half of The Bride Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors, Even (also known as The Large Glass) at the Philadelphia Museum of Art.
7. Altered image. BLT & Associates, Rocky Balboa Movie Poster, 2006.
8. Altered image. A. Thomas Schomberg, Rocky. Bronze, life -sized statue. 1982.

by j reed on Jan 8, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey me and Cole are almost birthday buddies, except he has 6 years and 1 day on me.

‎"I'm terrible" - Ilya Bryzgalov

by JpH89 on Jan 6, 2012 11:08 AM EST reply actions  

I’ll bet having to endure the combined birthday/Christmas present situation is what drove him to achieve such levels of excellence.

by taco pal on Jan 6, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

My birthday’s in August and I have cheap relatives who try to pull the combined cheap present on me.

All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia

by Veni Vidi Vici on Jan 6, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow, not even close. I’m late November so I often got stuck in the Thanksgiving “no birthday cake since we just ate all that pie!” nexus.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Jan 6, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Adding…

I f***ing LOVE BIRTHDAY CAKE.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Jan 6, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Thankfully, no-one celebrates Flag Day.

by Phrozen on Jan 6, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you all know that Cole Hamels doesn’t actually throw a a change up? He just throws a fast ball but slows down time for the rest of the world.

by Cole_Hamels_Can on Jan 7, 2012 12:24 PM EST reply actions  

Cole Hamels wasn’t born, he was painstakingly assembled from the remains of Bill Brasky.

by Phrozen on Jan 7, 2012 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

It doesn’t matter what the Phillies have in terms of pitching. I know pitching wins championships but so does hitting. How many times have we lost because they can’t give Hamels support? I’m tired of losing 2-1 or 1-0 games with these aces. Sorry if I sound bitter but we lost a 1-0 deciding playoff game on our own field without getting any offense help. That’s inexcusable and so far this off season has been a bust in terms of correcting that problem. To me that indicates RAJ isn’t interested in fixing the problem that doomed us this year so why even bother with the pitching? I would love to have Hamels and Doc and even Lee for the remainder of their careers but the bottom line is this team’s offense is old and broken. I doubt we’ll even make the playoffs next year unless a major move is made. We had everything going for us, everything in our favor- home field advantage all the way- and we couldn’t even score ONE STINKIN RUN!!!!!

by Kanayd on Jan 7, 2012 10:20 PM EST reply actions  

Would’ve been nice to let the Cardinals know that you need offense to win championships, given that the Phillies outscored them in the NLDS.

by philsandthrills on Jan 7, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

The trick is having a low Standard Error of runs with a decent mean.

by Cole_Hamels_Can on Jan 7, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Obviously we need students of Student on this team.

Or Greinke and his love of sabrmetrics

Bob.

by The Dark on Jan 8, 2012 2:30 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

I’m tired of losing 2-1 or 1-0 games with these aces.

Well, it might interest you to know that the Phillies did not lose a 2-1 or 1-0 game in the regular season.

by Phrozen on Jan 7, 2012 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, I’m a moron. Of course we lost some 2-1 games.

Fixed.

Well, it might interest you to know that the Phillies did not lose a 1-0 game in the regular season.

by Phrozen on Jan 7, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

In particular, we lost seven 2-1 games this year.

by Phrozen on Jan 7, 2012 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah but two were to THE METS!! tHE METS STINK!! Fire EVERYONE and TRADE FOR DAVID WRIGHT!!

"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP

by Joecatz on Jan 8, 2012 8:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Well...

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Jan 7, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

You really don’t understand how baseball works, do you? Or math.

by taco pal on Jan 8, 2012 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah that's Wright

We need to get David Wright because he can get the Ribbies… we should trade May, Worley, Brown… whoever… we can make Terry Collins the new Ed Wade. All the pitching in the world won’t help us unless we can get real clean up hitters. I can’t believe we re-signed Rollins… RAJ obviously doesn’t want to win… we need a real lead off hitter to get runzzz.

by Cole_Hamels_Can on Jan 8, 2012 3:18 AM EST up reply actions  

so, the interesting thing about sbnation blogs, such as, say, The Good Phight, is you have to wait a day after registering an account before you can comment on any given site… what’s helpful about this, is you can use that time to investigate the site’s arguments, including, perhaps, those arguments that address the very points you feel so urgently you have to make… in doing so, you can learn if the audience will be receptive to your point, or your line of reasoning, you can take the time to ensure that in making your point, you address the arguments previously made, so that you are, in fact, entering into a conversation, and not just venting some conventional wisdome on some Phillies blog somewhere… some find this a helpful feature, but your mileage may vary, as the kids like to say, if in abbreviation form, granted.

by yolacrary on Jan 8, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

something factually based, like:

They were so horrible last year that their winning percentage in one-run games was worse than interleague play! And with all that pitching, too, and no bench to speak of.

by Wet Luzinski on Jan 8, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

and no bench to speak of

kindly

by Wet Luzinski on Jan 8, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, as my mother always said, if you don’t have anything nice to say, come sit by me.

Bob.

by The Dark on Jan 8, 2012 2:31 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

we couldn’t even score ONE STINKIN RUN!!!!!

In ONE STINKIN’ GAME!!!!!! Beyond the postseason, our offense was just fine. I hate to continue beating a dead horse, but the Phillies had the highest scoring offense in the NL since Utley came back.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Jan 8, 2012 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

No Cone, you don’t get it, they scored zero runs when it counted. Since they didn’t improve their offense this offseason, that means they’re doomed to score zero runs again in next year’s NLDS Game 5. It’s inevitable.

by taco pal on Jan 8, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I blame Dominc Brown’s lack of hustle and playing the game the right way honestly…

by Cole_Hamels_Can on Jan 9, 2012 2:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m in the “we’ll cross that bridge when we get there” camp. That’s the camp that usually gets me into trouble.

by j reed on Jan 8, 2012 3:54 PM EST reply actions  

As long as you’ve got some bridge builders in your camp, it should work out fine.

by Phrozen on Jan 8, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

           --------------------------------------------------------------Recycling the Bridges of Tomorrow-------------------------------------------------------

I got the Bridge to Nowhere Crew. In the end I usually just call it public sculpture that fetishizes the working class (See the above nod to Rocky Statue) or celebrates universal forms and hands-on craftsmanship in a world that is spiraling helplessly into the pixelated jaws of teh technocracy . I guess when it goes wrong you hole up in someplace, build killdozer or get your nerd on with sabrmetric blogma.

          
                                    Clearly a Hello Cthulhu – Jungle Gym/Stripper Pole/ Sacrifice Impaler or it’s an I-Beam Tebowing
                                    
                                    Mark di Suvero, Iroquois. Installed along the Parkway, on a grassy triangle near 25th and Spring
                                    Garden, Philadelphia. The joy of building completely irrelevant things purely for the sake of it.
                                   
                                   Just like neighborhood kids playing a pick-up game of baseball before the Phils game comes on





2nd link NSFW

by j reed on Jan 9, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I totally expected something more like this in the Killdozer link, but an actual killdozer also works.

by Cormican on Jan 9, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

HA! I considered it. But I got a Killdozer song in there. 2nd link.

by j reed on Jan 9, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

So I saw (plus the highly underrated Pegboy)

by Cormican on Jan 10, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

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