Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Chase Utley and 50 Years of Second Basemen

Judging a player's career typically revolves around two key questions:

1) Peak: where did the player rank among his peers in his best seasons?

2) Longevity: how do his career stats compare to those of his contemporaries?

In the case of Chase Utley, his longevity was already hampered by a relatively late start to his career, and it is now looking more suspect after injuries have caused him to miss time in each of the last two seasons. However we won't be able to judge his longevity fully for (hopefully) several more years.

Best Second Basemen since 1961 by Career Peak

Utley now has 7 full seasons that we can compare to the best 7-year stretches of other players.

The method used is to find each player's best 7-year stretch based on Wins Above Replacement. Since there are some differences between the WAR from FanGraphs (fWAR) and from Baseball-Reference (rWAR), the two were averaged.

So how does Utley match up with other top second basemen of the past 50 years?

First, any discussion of the single best second baseman of recent decades does not get far beyond the name Joe Morgan. For all his faults as an announcer and analyst, on the field he was the best second baseman since Rogers Hornsby, and one of the best players of the past 50 years at ANY position.

The question of the best second basemen therefore quickly becomes a battle for second-best, but it is a battle among some great players, including:

- three Hall of Famers: Ryne Sandberg, Roberto Alomar, and Rod Carew (who played second through his age 29 season)
- one likely inductee: Craig Biggio, who was a second baseman for most of his career after starting out as a catcher
- two who deserve consideration: Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker

Without further ado, the best seven-year stretches by second-basemen in the past 50 years are shown after the jump.

Star-divide

Utley is 2nd in the averaged WAR -- 3rd in rWAR, just behind Biggio, and 2nd in fWAR, comfortably ahead of him:

7yrpks_medium7yrpksgrphonly_medium
(for all images, click to enlarge/sharpen)

You'll notice that Utley has the biggest difference among these players between their rWAR and fWAR. The differences by segment of WAR are below. It's not clear why the differences are so large for Utley, but it's worth mentioning. Again, in either case, he's in the top three:

Utfwarvrwar_medium

Looking ahead:

8-year peak: Utley is assured of 2nd place in fWAR; needs 4.9 rWAR in 2012 to move ahead of Biggio for the 2nd best 8-year peak
9-year peak: Utley is assured of 2nd place in fWAR; needs 9.1 rWAR in 2012-13 to move ahead of Biggio for the 2nd best 9-year peak
10-year peak: needs 6.9 fWAR and 12.2 rWAR in 2012-14 to move ahead of Grich for the 2nd best 10-year peak

WAR needed for Utley to have the second best peak...
Needfor2nd_medium

Extent of Utley's Decline

A look at Utley's marquee stats since 2007 gives the strong impression that he's been in steep decline for several years now:

0711marquee_medium

Part of the apparent decline is because he missed time due to injuries. That is a very real issue, but if we examine how he did when he was actually on the field, it's a somewhat different story.

This normalizes each year to 700 plate appearances:

0711all2_medium

There is real decline in aspects of his game:
- the drop in his isolated power (ISO, which is Slugging minus Batting Avg), is real, from the .230 range to the .160s
- line drive rate dropped significantly in 2011 from around 20%, to around 13%
- his HR/FB % fell to only 6.7%

So given all this, let's see how he has compared to the rest of MLB second basemen in recent years. Below are the top 10 second basemen in fWAR since 2005:

Fwarbyyr_medium
(note: in 2009, Ben Zobrist played 91 game at 2B, and 70 in the outfield)


And the same table, but this time showing the top 10 in fWAR per 700 plate appearances:

Fwar700byyr_medium

So a couple of observations:

- In 2010, for the time that he was able to play, he was still the best second-baseman in the game. And it wasn't that close. He was also the 11th best position player in baseball.

- In 2011, despite the issues with his power, line drive rate, and so on, when on the field he was a 6-win player, and still a top-tier second-baseman.

There is real decline in his offense, but it looks even worse than it is because a) hitting is down across baseball, and b) casual observers conflate the decline in production with time missed to injury.

In addition, his defense has remained as stellar as it has ever been. Again, extrapolating UZR to 700 PAs results in these ratings in 2007-2011: 14.4, 19.2, 11.4, 14.1, 13.0 (ranking 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 1st, and 4th in MLB).

The graph below compares the best second basemen of the past few years. It will be interesting to see if any of the other three can maintain 6-8 win performance and challenge Utley's 7-year peak:

Fwar700grph_medium

By the way, I can picture someone who is used to traditional stats, saying "Wha?! How could Utley have been anywhere near as good as Cano in 2011?"

Utcano_medium

The answer lies in three main areas:

- Playing time: this was a real advantage for Cano. He was on the field, and he helped his team. But if we adjust their stats for playing time, they are somewhat less lopsided -- 29 HR, 105 RBI for Cano, 17-68 for Utley -- although still a significant difference.

- Walks: getting on base is the most important thing a hitter can do, and because Cano hardly ever walks, they did that about equally in 2011: .344 for Utley, .349 for Cano. That factors into the comprehensive hitting stat wOBA, which weighs OBP about twice as much as Slugging, where Cano had a clear advantage. There is still a difference in wOBA -- because of his better power, Cano was clearly the better overall hitter last year.

- Defense: As mentioned above, Utley was great as usual, while Cano was average to slightly below average, as he has been almost every year. That is enough of a difference to negate Cano's hitting advantage, and in the end their WAR per plate appearance is about equal.



Career Longevity

Getting back to the question of longevity, below are two possible career projections for Utley, showing where each would put him for his career. The first is optimistic, adding 27.5 WAR. The second (adding 15.5) may also turn out to be optimistic depending on his health, but at this point I would like to think it's realistic.

Projectss_medium

Pre60grph_medium
(click to enlarge)
Post60grph_medium

Career WAR rankings since 1961, with the two Utley projections:

Carproj_medium

Wrapping up

Chase Utley has had one of the best 7-year stretches by a second baseman in the past 50 years, and has a good opportunity to continue to be among the best for 8- to 10-year peaks as well.

Beyond that, the key of course will be how well he can manage his ailing knees and hips and continue to produce.

Comment 138 comments  |  7 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Great post, schmenk, as usual. This really illustrates how fortunate we’ve been to see him in the red pinstripes. I suppose it’s also somewhat fortunate (for us as fans, at least) that the baseball market hasn’t really rewarded non-traditional stats fairly.

I won’t pick him in the first round this year (that was a bad idea, as it turned out), but I expect a real rebound for Utley this year.

by Phrozen on Feb 2, 2012 4:35 PM EST reply actions  

I agree. I have feeling he’s going to come back very strong this year.

by yolacrary on Feb 2, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

These are some beautifully made graphs. Great post.

by taco pal on Feb 2, 2012 4:45 PM EST reply actions  

I would guess, also, that Cano’s raw offensive numbers benefited a lot from his ballpark, whereas Utley played in a more neutral scoring environment.

by taco pal on Feb 2, 2012 4:47 PM EST reply actions  

Is there a site that sorts out the park factors for righties and lefties?

by phillies0100 on Feb 2, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Another awesome post, schmenkman, always enjoy reading these statistical pieces. Also interesting to some of us, is an article posted on FG today (ironically), calling Utley the best value 2B of the last 10 years. To really put his greatness into perspective,

Even if Utley is only a 5 WAR player over the next two seasons — a conservative estimate — he’d end the contract having produced a total of 43.8 WAR, valued close to $190 million, more than double the $85 million he received.

by phillies0100 on Feb 2, 2012 4:47 PM EST reply actions  

The best things Wade ever did as Phillies GM were signing Utley and Rollins to their extensions.

by taco pal on Feb 2, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I recall people thinking that the Utley contract was an overpay. I remember thinking folks that thought that were fucking nuts.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Feb 2, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

The Utley extension was Pat Gillick.

by mm881102 on Feb 4, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe Morgan is before my time but he must have been an absolute beast.

by taco pal on Feb 2, 2012 4:48 PM EST reply actions  

When you’re bored some day go look at the lines for bench, Morgan, rose, Perez et al for those big red machine teams.

"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP

by Joecatz on Feb 3, 2012 7:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Not dead yet, folks.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Feb 2, 2012 5:02 PM EST reply actions  

Excellent post! I think, more than anything this season, I’d love to see Chase back in full blown beast-mode.

by esentman on Feb 2, 2012 5:05 PM EST reply actions  

Awesome post

shows just how important he is to the success of the Phillies

Just talkin about practice

Follow me on Twitter - @Teachin2daChoir

by The Mad Hopper on Feb 2, 2012 6:07 PM EST reply actions  

The weird thing about Morgan is that he was not an awesome defensive second baseman. For most of his career, TZ has him related as average or just below average. Though, indeed, he’s rated at his best for the first five years of that 7-year peak.

by yolacrary on Feb 2, 2012 7:56 PM EST reply actions  

I say “weird” because that means that Morgan’s huge advantage over Utley is entire due to offense, and yet Utley is a great offensive player. Morgan was unreal.

by yolacrary on Feb 2, 2012 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

A player has drawn 100 walks and stolen 50 bases in a season 14 times in MLB history. RIckey Henderson (six times), Joe Morgan (five), Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins and Bob Bescher (once each).

Cherry-picked numbers, sure, but that’s pretty elite company indeed.

by Phrozen on Feb 2, 2012 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, I worded that in about the most confusing way possible, but I think you get the picture.

by Phrozen on Feb 2, 2012 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Fun facts about Morgan in 1971-77:

- Morgan’s wRC+ over those seven years was 165 — highest in the majors
- He had 62.8 fWAR, so he AVERAGED 9.0 per year over the7 years
- Nobody else (any position) had more than 46.8 (Bench)
- The top 3 in MLB over that period were Morgan, Bench, and Rose (44.6)

-------
Celebrating over 50 years of slightly more Phils wins than losses: 1961-2011

by schmenkman on Feb 2, 2012 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

strange that the Reds were so bad in those years

by yolacrary on Feb 2, 2012 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Schmidt is 8th, with 39.5, without playing in 1971 or 72 (save a callup) and being terrible in 73; 250 to 300 plate appearances fewer than all 7 players ahead of him.

by yolacrary on Feb 2, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

my PA numbers above are wrong; that’s games (duh)

by yolacrary on Feb 2, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

(beat me to it, here it is anyway)…
By the way, Schmidt had 39.5 fWAR in less than 5 seasons from ’71 to ’77. Extrapolated to the same PAs as Morgan, he would have had 56.4.

-------
Celebrating over 50 years of slightly more Phils wins than losses: 1961-2011

by schmenkman on Feb 2, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Fun facts about Morgan in 1971-77:

- Morgan’s wRC+ over those seven years was 165 — highest in the majors
- He had 62.8 fWAR, so he AVERAGED 9.0 per year over the7 years
- Nobody else (any position) had more than 46.8 (Bench)
- The top 3 in MLB over that period were Morgan, Bench, and Rose (44.6)

This. Before I saw this post, I checked Morgan’s baseball reference stats, and the fascinating thing about Morgan is he was a Houston Colt 45, and then he was traded from the Astros to the Reds. The trade was not particularly considered a blockbuster at the time, and in fact, most people as I recall thought that Morgan was more or less a slightly-better-than- journeyman second basemen. I remember him playing on the Astros when I was a kid, and it was a little surprising to me that he rose to prominence with the Reds. Advanced stats suggest that he was actually better than was thought at the time. However, the year he was traded, 1972, coincided with a complete blowup of his stats into HOF category, as schenkman suggests above. Would he eventually have done the same with the Astros? Maybe. He was traded when he was 28, the classic career-high year. Or maybe the Big Red Machine bats around him helped. We’ll never know.

GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal

by Bud in TN on Feb 3, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Excellent breakdown as usual. As awesome as Utley has been, and despite the great company he’s keeping there, I have a feeling that unless he has a Jeff Kent-like mid-to-late thirties plateau of really goodness he’s going to get the short shrift when it comes to the HoF.

Further, that shouldn’t really matter, but for some reason it kind of makes me sadfaced.

by 88Lindros88 on Feb 2, 2012 10:18 PM EST reply actions  

He’s probably got to move to a 125-135 games/year player so the knees could rest enough to bring back that faltering ISO. The key will be to beat the stubborn out of him and Cholly to do it.

by Wet Luzinski on Feb 2, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Chase Utley’s return won’t be elixir for Phillies’ offensive woes.

Au contraire…

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Feb 3, 2012 1:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I’ve heard that Chase Utley’s blood type is not negative or positive, it is awesome instead.

by Cole_Hamels_Can on Feb 3, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s unrealistic, as taco’s quotes show. What’s more likely is a few games now and again at 1B. Sacrificing his defense, yeah, but if it keeps his bat in the lineup more often, it’s a chance worth taking.

by Phrozen on Feb 3, 2012 4:25 AM EST up reply actions  

This is a fine idea as well. esp. early on in the season.

by Wet Luzinski on Feb 7, 2012 8:58 AM EST up reply actions  

We love you Chase!

/apparently from the pic above, the aliens do too

GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal

by Bud in TN on Feb 3, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

They tried to beam him up, but only got his mortal essence, which is why he is slightly less awesome than before.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Feb 3, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Chase Utley withstood the force of 10 nuclear bombs from the alien lasers. That is really why he missed time last season… and he still felt like a wimp for not coming back sooner.

by Cole_Hamels_Can on Feb 3, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

In which TGP starts a Chase Utley meme à la Chuck Norris.

“Chase Utley doesn’t get hit by pitches, baseballs are just attracted to him.”

Fare thee well, JM. In my book, you were the Greatest.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7890127&c_id=mlb

by Missing Jamie Moyer on Feb 4, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

“Chase Utley has a lifetime 1.400 OBP.”

Fare thee well, JM. In my book, you were the Greatest.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7890127&c_id=mlb

by Missing Jamie Moyer on Feb 4, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Chase Utley starts at first base.

by Phrozen on Feb 4, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Chase Utley puts the FUN in HBP.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Feb 4, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

The word for a sport title used to be Ampionship, but out of respect for Chase they put a Ch on that bitch.

by Cole_Hamels_Can on Feb 4, 2012 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you ever notice how Chuck Norris and Chase Utley have the same number of syllables and both start with “Ch?” Chuck Norris is Chase Utley’s alter ego.

by Phrozen on Feb 5, 2012 4:46 AM EST up reply actions  

So, they’ve never been seen in the same place at the same time, EVER….

"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP

by Joecatz on Feb 5, 2012 7:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Chase Utley developed patellar tendinitis by roundhouse kicking the universe too many times.

Fare thee well, JM. In my book, you were the Greatest.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7890127&c_id=mlb

by Missing Jamie Moyer on Feb 5, 2012 8:52 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'll play...

Every time the phrase “Utley slides hard into second” is uttered during the game, a percentage of girls in the Delaware Valley instantly become women.

by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Feb 9, 2012 5:19 AM EST up reply actions  

What happens when “Utley scores?”

by Phrozen on Feb 9, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

The image you’ve planted in my head will never, EVER, go away…

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Feb 9, 2012 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, that explains Vernon Wells’ season, dude was probably worn out.

by Cormican on Feb 9, 2012 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

My apologies to both of you. I actually realized the team name/heavenly host shared name could cause awful imagery and thought about clarifying, then I laughed evilly and walked away.

by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Feb 9, 2012 11:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Chooch…I think.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Feb 10, 2012 5:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Awesome. I love how the heavenly light is channeled through the liberty bell.

by Phrozen on Feb 2, 2012 11:26 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Beautiful post

But you forgot some rather important stats.

Best-Looking Second Basemen in MLB History
1. Chase Utley
2. Everyone else

by ajay on Feb 2, 2012 11:11 PM EST reply actions  

Word.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Feb 2, 2012 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

What, no Mickey Morandini?

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Swoon

Fare thee well, JM. In my book, you were the Greatest.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7890127&c_id=mlb

by Missing Jamie Moyer on Feb 4, 2012 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Mullet. That is all.

by Wet Luzinski on Feb 7, 2012 8:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Please don’t tell me I’m not the only one who sees the irony of Joe Morgan being at the top of the first two graphs

All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia

by Veni Vidi Vici on Feb 3, 2012 2:09 AM EST reply actions  

/computer number’d

by Wet Luzinski on Feb 7, 2012 9:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Awesome post. It actually makes me more optimistic for Utley’s HOF chances. Unless the knee problems get really bad, he probably won’t be on the ballot for ten to twelve, maybe fifteen years. Change happens at a glacial pace in the BBWAA, but one would think that there would be a more advanced stat savvy electorate fifteen or twenty years from now.

I think we’ve discussed this here before, but I just wanted to point out that using 2007 as the starting point makes Utley’s decline look worse than it probably is. For me at least, the perception changes if you back up and use wRC+ starting with ’05.

2005: 136
2006: 131
2007: 150
2008: 136
2009: 146
2010: 130
2011: 116

So basically, his full seasons were ‘05, ’06, ’08, 09. ’07 was a career year, but shortened by a freak injury, and in 2010 he had that weird flu thing, but was nevertheless basically pretty close to his career norm until he had another freak injury. 2011, of course, is it’s own thing altogether.

Maybe it’s just semantics, but it’s hard for me to come to the conclusion that there was a decline starting after 2007 when his best full season wRC+ was 2009. And 2010 is close enough to the other seasons that the argument could be made that he was basically playing at around his career level until the knee injury last offseason.

by topherstarr on Feb 3, 2012 10:51 AM EST reply actions  

but but, his batting average!

by yolacrary on Feb 3, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Early Projections

Check out where the Phils are penciled in according to OLIVER

http://www.hardballtimes.com/forecasts

by Nikk.m on Feb 3, 2012 11:46 AM EST reply actions  

Hysterical.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Feb 3, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Are they high?

How does that make any kind of sense? I mean, 84-78 for the Phils? Arizona at 82-80? Tampa at 75-87? It’s like they took the 2005 season, took a dump on the standings for good measure, and started over with random numbers.

The Mets at 86-76?!? WTF?

by Phrozen on Feb 3, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeesh, that’s awful. I mean, it was bad enough when people were picking the Braves last year just to get attention, but this is just a farce. Yes, the East is a tough division this year, and anything can happen, but the one thing that won’t happen is the Mets finishing any higher than 4th place. They’re going to be the one awful team in a good division, even if Johan comes back and is amazing.

Didn’t THT used to be a quality site? WTF happened to them anyway?

by Rujasu on Feb 3, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m pretty sure that’s computer generated. They have some sort of algorithm and that’s what it spit out. It’s not like the authors sat around and voted on this.

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It is, but something still seems fishy (not least the Marlins at 90 wins).

by yolacrary on Feb 3, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s almost definitely something wrong with the model. I’m just saying, this isn’t exactly cause for outrage.

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

No, but it’s pretty funny.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Feb 3, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe not, but the fact that they publish that ranking on the same page where they ask for money for their “respectable” site is one of the more preposterous things found on the internet, non-GIF division.

by Phrozen on Feb 3, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t read THT regularly but in my limited experience they’ve done good work.

They have a formula. It produced the results it produced. They can’t just “fix” the results after the fact. We don’t even know if the formula is bad. Even a good formula will sometimes come up with weird results when you try to predict really complicated stuff.

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, you’re right, I don’t know what their “formula” is, but out of the admittedly small sample size of one piece of output that I’ve seen, it’s bunk. Probably half of the team records don’t make any kind of sense.

It may be illogical, but since 2007, people have been calling for the “current” Phillies to fail spectacularly, and I’m getting sick of it—they’ve arguably gotten better nearly every season, and yet each offseason, it’s the same, “can’t hit, getting old, GO BARVES YEAH!” crap as before. I’m sure this formula isn’t biased, but it’s not weighted very well either.

by Phrozen on Feb 3, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

the Replacement Level Yankees Weblog did early projections based on Tom Tango’s intentionally simplistic Marcel system last week. their results were, shall we say, somewhat more plausible.

by perfectdepth on Feb 3, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

right, I was just looking for that one… it does seem more reasonable; I’m not sure what the differences are between Marcel & Oliver

by yolacrary on Feb 3, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

At the other end of the spectrum in terms of quantitative/qualitative is this : First To Worst: Who Could Do It In 2012? (Really)

The objective here is not to be accurate, since it will be quickly forgotten, but to say something controversial, or at least raise some interesting possibilities.

They won’t finish last — the Mets will prevent that — but I would not be surprised to see the Phillies start showing signs of decline, and perhaps even finish under .500.

-------
Celebrating over 50 years of slightly more Phils wins than losses: 1961-2011

by schmenkman on Feb 3, 2012 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

He’s probably remembering what happened to his team three years ago (the Cubs) and is extrapolating.

It’s not impossible, But the 2011 Phillies were a much better team than the 2008 Cubs were.

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Tigers
No.

I wouldn’t be so fast on that. Their Defense at 3rd will be awfully awful. The rotation after Verlander is pretty inconsistent, if promising. Yes, they’ll have Miggy & Prince, but First to worst is far from preposterous.

by Cormican on Feb 8, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I ain’t buying it. The Braves will be the Braves. Their pitching will be excellent, but young and overused. Their offense will be streaky, free-swinging, LOB-friendly and GiDP-happy. They’ll come oh-so-tantalizingly-close and then disappear entirely.

The Nats could be a problem. They’re not ready to usurp the throne… but they could cause some trouble for the king down the stretch.

And the Marlins? I’ll believe that chaotic collection of explosively-douchey personalities isn’t a recipe for “what-the-hell-just-happened-we-had-it-all-planned-out?!” disaster when I see it after 162.

I’m not saying we’re a shoe-in for Division Champ. The Phils have some issues. I just don’t see anyone else running away with it.

And now look what I went and did…. I fed the hits-seeking-bullshit-offseason-topic troll.

Goddammit.

by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Feb 9, 2012 5:16 AM EST up reply actions  

The Marlins are still stuck with bad defense at SS, 3rd, and CF. Three key defensive positions.

Johnson/Zambrano/Nolasco/Buehrle/Sanchez is a better rotation than they had last year, but not worldbeaters. (Though if Josh Johnson can stay healthy, that will be a big boost for them)

I know they had a few big signings, but there’s still some big holes on that team (and probably the worst farm system in baseball to pull from if needed).

by Cormican on Feb 9, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

On the other hand, Mike Stanton could take another step forward and hit 55 HRs this year. Or not. But that guy has no ceiling.

by taco pal on Feb 9, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

They’ll be awesome offensively, no doubt about that.

by Cormican on Feb 9, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

When you say “no ceiling,” I assume you mean he’s not going to improve from here on out.

I’ll still welcome a guy who can average a .369 wOBA and 130 wRC+ through his career on my team.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Feb 9, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he means “sky’s the limit”

by yolacrary on Feb 9, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, almost completely OT (it does relate to the Philadelphia sports scene I guess), but watching an Errol Morris documentary about El Wingador has got to be one of the trippiest things ever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/03/opinion/el-wingador.html?_r=2

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 4:45 PM EST reply actions  

Love this.

Not sure if this belongs in the graphic, but I think a lot of casual fans (including those who love Utley, who are the majority) actually have an affirmative belief that he’s a bad fielder because he doesn’t “look smooth” and because he’s made a couple of memorable errors in postseason play.

I think some casual fans also think he’s a mediocre baserunner because he doesn’t “look fast” although I think this is a smaller group. Even most casual fans recognize that he’s a very good baserunner (if for no other reason because of their memory of the “you are the man” play). They just don’t give him quite as much credit as they could and should.

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

And then you have:

5. People from out of town who I’ve seen on places like Fangraphs, who’ve only ever seen the people in group 4 and thus accuse the Philadelphia fan base of being unappreciative of Utley because it’s stuck on worshipping Ryan Howard

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

The “out-of-towners” who snicker at the Silly Phillies Fans who idolize Ryan Howard but ignore the poor, misunderstood Chase Utley typically fail to mention that it’s casual fans EVERYWHERE who do this with Utley/Howard; it’s not endemic to Philadelphia.

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Feb 3, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

If anything I think it’s less common in Philadelphia than it is in the country at large. By a big margin too. Group 4 is the smallest of the four groups here. Group 2 is probably the biggest and might even be a majority.

Howard is certainly overappreciated by a fairly substantial % of the local fan base, but that’s balanced out by also having some extreme haters. Anyway, he’s nowhere near as popular as Utley, even among the most casual of casual fans.

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I think 4 used to be small but is growing. Most casual fans I talk to when I’m at home mention that Chase has always been overrated (though is certainly good) and they now think he is washed up.

by Cole_Hamels_Can on Feb 3, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

YMMV, I guess. I rarely ever see people like that.

Anyway, Group 4 is obviously wrong, and annoying, but I find them a little less annoying in comparison, given that the original sin lies with Groups 2 and 3.

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough…also I had never heard “YMMV” before so had to look it up. Anyway… it’s an empirical question about what the composition of people are. I definitely think that many people think Chase is washed up.

by Cole_Hamels_Can on Feb 4, 2012 1:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I wonder how much of that “washed up” attitude can be attributed to the fact that we haven’t won championships despite being the favorites to do so for a couple of years now. If we’d won in 2010 (or maybe 2009), I’d imagine that opinions towards Chase, Jimmy, etc. would be trending more towards the positive.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Feb 4, 2012 1:35 AM EST up reply actions  

While I do love his “grit”, “hustle”, and propensity to “play the right way”, what I REALLY love about him stems from the fact that he CAN look awkward.

From a pure, inherently-athletic standpoint Utley should be, at best, an average player; at worst, he’s not in the bigs.

Again, this my opinion, but he has such a great Baseball MIND, that his cerebral approach supercedes his inherent talent. Running inside the baseline to second to rob the #2 Bagger from turning a GIDP (to say nothing if the takeout slides); turning his back to the first baseman and jumping on a short hop to 1st- giving the IMPRESSION that he’s afraid to be pegged – but ACTUALLY preventing the 1st baseman from throwing out runner at home; faking a throw to 1st to goad a runner into trying for home, only to gun him out at the plate in the MOST BADASS, MOST IMPORTANT defensive play I’ve ever witnessed in person….

THESE are the things that make me ignore (to some extent) the sabr stats and writers’ association rankings, sit back & appreciate how lucky we are to get to watch this guy play.

I’ve said it before and I continue to stand by it: I’d take Chase Utley at 75% over 100% of any other second baseman in baseball.

by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Feb 4, 2012 2:44 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Please forgive me grammatical errors and chalk them up to posting at 2:30 on a Satuday night/Sunday morning from my phone… I’m frankly shocked that’s as legible as it is.

by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Feb 4, 2012 4:20 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Errors forgiven. Shoot, even I’d gone to bed already!

by Phrozen on Feb 4, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

And even more absurd, I’m just now re-reading this and realizing it was a Friday night/ Saturday morning. Man, Whiskey and Phones should be an illegal combination.

by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Feb 4, 2012 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Illegal posting combination. Ten yard penalty. Repeat second down.

by Phrozen on Feb 5, 2012 4:53 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes. #4 are the ones who call him overpaid.

-------
Celebrating over 50 years of slightly more Phils wins than losses: 1961-2011

by schmenkman on Feb 3, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Some in #3 too. They say he’s overpaid too, but more in sorrow than in anger.

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

This

GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal

by Bud in TN on Feb 3, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

rec'd

For awesomeness and the inclusion of “should of.”

http://www.thegoodphight.com

by WholeCamels on Feb 5, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

all this. Now I am going to have to think in terms of numbers for Dom Brown.

CONVERGENCE

by Wet Luzinski on Feb 7, 2012 9:03 AM EST up reply actions  

SHOULD OF CONVERGED!

by Phrozen on Feb 7, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

completely OT breaking news...

Mom & Pops DW were hired as game day employees of the Phillies to be stationed in premium services….oh lord, smh.

by DirtyWaters on Feb 3, 2012 11:15 PM EST reply actions  

Your battery-throwing days are over, young man!

by taco pal on Feb 3, 2012 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Humor me. What is “premium services?”

by Phrozen on Feb 3, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Will I be buying beer from them? If so, I would love to say hi to the parents of the best photoshopper TGP has ever seen.

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Feb 4, 2012 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

they won’t be selling beer, although I would get quite a kick from that…I would guess they would be working as ushers.

by DirtyWaters on Feb 4, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

not sure…from what they told me, I think it is going to be in the suite area.

by DirtyWaters on Feb 4, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

They would so win if they set you up with Pistachio Girl and you, in turn, posted the details.

by Wet Luzinski on Feb 7, 2012 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

great work

I’m hoping that the TLC Amaro has applied to the bench means that Manuel be going easy, or easier, on his two superior middle infielders. Maybe not so much Rollins, because Mini-Mart is such a downgrade and there really isn’t another shortstop on the roster—but with Utley, he’s got Wigginton, who played 40 games at second for the Orioles as recently as 2010, as well as Martinez.

I think the best-case scenario for Utley is that he plays about 135-140 games, gets around 580-600 plate appearances, and rebounds to something like .290/.380/.500. Obviously, this would go a long way toward division title #6.

by dajafi on Feb 4, 2012 1:55 PM EST reply actions  

That’s a sexy triple-slash line…

Some people don't think it be what it is, but it do.

by TheOrangeCone on Feb 4, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, the best case scenario is he goes 1.000/1.000/4.000, with ~600 homeruns and ~2,400 RBIs.

I think .290/.380/.500 is optimistic, but definitely reasonable. I sure hope you’re right about Manuel taking it easy with the infield. I’d go as far as to lobby for all four regular infielders to get a day off every week or so, once Howard’s returned.

by Phrozen on Feb 4, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

In some way, I almost think the best thing that can happen to the team is for Wiggington to have an insane April while Howard is out, which will make Charlie try and get him as many games here and there as he can. I’d love to see 15-20 of them happen at 2B to give utley a breather. Charlie ain’t gonna do that with Martinez unless It’s injury related.

"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP

by Joecatz on Feb 4, 2012 7:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Just curious, why Martinez over Orr?

I guess it’s probably because Martinez is younger (and maybe more versatile?) but his MLEs are basically slightly worse than Orr’s, and Orr has better speed.

They’re both AAAA players, but Martinez just bothers me because he does nothing well other than flash some leather at a few infield positions.

by 88Lindros88 on Feb 4, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Martinez does have the advantage of being on the 40 man roster. So unless Orr is significantly better, it makes more sense to just give Martinez the job.

by taco pal on Feb 4, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I suppose, but do you really think anyone would put in a claim on Martinez? He’s not good at baseball, you know.

by 88Lindros88 on Feb 4, 2012 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean, we did. That’s how he ended up here in the first place.

(He has options, correct?)

Fare thee well, JM. In my book, you were the Greatest.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7890127&c_id=mlb

by Missing Jamie Moyer on Feb 4, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably not, but even if the chance is only 1%, why take it?

by taco pal on Feb 4, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

because Martinez will make the team over Orr out of camp. But the same theory would apply if it was Orr, or any other “light hitting infielder”. It has everything to do with Charlie and nothing to do with which guy is the backup IF behind wiggington. If it’s Orr over Martinez, so be it, (i really don’t care) but neither of them is gonna get 20 non injury related starts at 2B.

"Sometimes, the balls that fall in are jam shots"...Hunter Pence, on BABIP

by Joecatz on Feb 6, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

If Wigginton has an insane April, I fear he’ll be the everyday 3b and Polly will become the Utility guy.

by Cormican on Feb 8, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe, but this is a case where “Charlie likes his guys” works in our favor. Polly’s his guy. Wiggy’s not (yet).

by Phrozen on Feb 8, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

If Wiggy’s hot, and Polly isn’t, I fear Wiggy will easily become his guy. It’s not like Cholly and Polly have a long history together.

by Cormican on Feb 9, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

True, but they have a lot in common. Not big on walks, and they don’t speak English.

by Phrozen on Feb 9, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Polanco actually speaks pretty well. Better than Charlie, probably.

by taco pal on Feb 9, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I know. Snarkometer is on low today. Obligatory jape slayn here, I think.

by Phrozen on Feb 9, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow

What a post…It really addresses a lot of questions I have had regarding Utley’s value to the team and his place in baseball. If I have one wish for the Phillies this year, it would be to see Chase healthy enough to play 130 games and healthy in the stretch…He is such a key to their entire lineup because of his ability to get on base, work the count, etc.

Over the year that I have read this blog, I have become a convert to the editors approach to these issues (although sorry, I still like Pence). It has made me begin to understand baseball in ways that are pretty illuminating. I still don’t understand half of what I read, and wonder about some of the underlying assumptions that are used to build the statistical case, but I am willing to chalk a good portion of that up to my being pretty far behind the eight-ball, notwithstanding my efforts to read the bibles out there on some of these statistical approaches.

Anyway, thanks again for the really excellent work. and Go Phils.

"I've seen George Foreman shadow box, and the shadow won." Muhammad Ali

by BenDerDonDat on Feb 8, 2012 5:15 PM EST reply actions  

No need to apologize. I don’t think anyone here hates Pence, merely recognize he’s overrated a bit.

by Cormican on Feb 9, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Analysis and features focusing on Philadelphia Phillies baseball.

FanPosts

Next Game

Philadelphia Phillies
@ St. Louis Cardinals

Saturday, May 26, 2012, 7:15 PM EDT
Busch Stadium

Kyle Kendrick vs Jaime Garcia

Clear. Winds blowing out to left field at 5-15 m.p.h. Game time temperature around 95.

Complete Coverage >

Yahoo_full_count

Blog Lords

Wholecamels_small WholeCamels

Boys_small jonk

Tecumseh_phillies_small FuquaManuel

Dsc04697_small David S. Cohen

Meltingface_small dajafi

Phillyfriar__new2__small PhillyFriar

Associate Blog Lords

Bugs_small taco pal

Greg_luzinski_small Wet Luzinski

-20100715-hamels_avatar_for_rtp_small RememberthePhitans

Phillies1980logo_small schmenkman

Lion_small philsandthrills

Madmen_icon_small lizroscher

Contributors

Ryanred_small petzrawr

Werein_small Phrozen

Trader-joes_small Joecatz

Small Dash Treyhorn

Blogger Emeritus

Colevatar_small Matt Swartz