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I hate the term sabremetrician...

It has become the rallying cry for those who oppose facts and evidence and it is really bothering me.  I was listening to sports radio last night (I loved to get enraged, apparently) and the host was talking about how the Phillies desperately need to protect Ryan Howard and should put him 3rd and Utley 4th, despite what the sabremetricians think.

This bothered me on many different levels.  First, if you are knowledgable enough to say the word sabremetrician, you should be smart enough to acknowledge their side and not just poo poo it like it is crazy talk.  

Star-divide

But what really bothers me is the term.  What is a sabremetrician?  Do you need to pass a class to become one?  Is it like being a lawyer or a doctor?  Can anyone be one?  And it is ok to just label someone as one in order to devalue their analysis?

Apparently, it is nothing more than a term used to describe elitists that can only use complicated formulas to understand the game.  It has such a negative stigma that it is always used to undercut a point, just by blowing it off as someone who can't understand the nuances of the game and thus, can't be right.  It strikes me as strange that people use terms like stathead and calculator as insults when trying to find value in play.  Has society really degraded that much where we disregard analytical thought?

The problem is that sabremetricians really aren't helping themselves either.  A lot of this is hard to grasp conceptually and even harder to explain to someone who doesn't want their mind changed.  The term has turned into a very negative one and it is used against those who aren't even using sabrementrics.  All I ever want to see are facts.  Show me evidence.  Don't give me subjective analysis.  Don't tell me what YOU saw?  I may have seen something different.  Don't try to tell me something when I KNOW your biases get in the way.  Show me something that has no bias.  Those are numbers, simple or complex.  They don't lie.  People who use them may lie, but that is where you have to use your brain to figure out if it makes sense or not.

I am just a guy looking for the truth.  The truth in something as trivial as baseball, with respect to the whole, but none-the-less, I want to find the truth.  Disregarding someone's point just by calling them a sabremetircian (or many similiar names) is an attempt to ignore the truth.  One day, the truth will set baseball free.

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Re: I hate the term sabremetrician...
"Has society really degraded that much where we disregard analytical thought?"

Well, I won't comment on society generally, but I think for baseball, it's simple: people like to think of it as fun and nostalgic and simple.  They don't want to think analytically about it.

by David S. Cohen on Feb 12, 2007 9:16 AM EST reply actions  

Re: I hate the term sabremetrician...
Jonk,

Very fair analysis and stats can never be discounted, but I believe the point is that it is not the only way to analyze sports.  If that were true, the best teams on paper would win every year, when in fact that often does not happen.  There are simply too many factors involved in winning a championship to simply look at stats.  For instance, if a player is batting .217 but has a slugging percentage of .688 because most of his hits are doubles, triples and homers (Mark McGwire?), is he really helping the team that way?  In some ways, yes.  But I would argue that the low batting average, probable high strikeouts and lack of run production outweighs the benefit of slugging percentage here.  Obviously, guys like Billy Beane have done wonders by focusing on stats like OBPS, but it is not the only factor.  If a blog becomes nothing more than trading stats, what's the point?  Why do you think teams spend so much money on psychological profiles, testing, interviewing and other forms of analysis instead of just looking at stats when drafting/paying for free agents?  How could the Yankees, with that ridiculous lineup last year, get hammered by the Tigers, who were inferior on paper?  Yes, they had better pitching, but the statistics would probably have favored guys like Jeter, ARod, Sheffield, Matsui, Abreu, Cano and Giambi over guys like Robertson, Rogers and Verlander.  Part of a blog is to offer opinions, vent frustrations, discuss what you like and don't like about your teams, AND to provide good evidence when discussing an argument.  But if everything is based on science, not only will it be very boring, it won't be very realistic.  

by delb3175 on Feb 12, 2007 9:17 AM EST reply actions  

let's take this on
Very fair analysis and stats can never be discounted, but I believe the point is that it is not the only way to analyze sports.  If that were true, the best teams on paper would win every year, when in fact that often does not happen.

I think the issue here is that you misunderstand the point of "sabermetric" analysis. If you read Bill James, Baseball Prospectus, Rob Neyer, the Hardball Times, any of them, they will never--NEVER--state or imply that the teams with "the best stats" are guaranteed to win, or that they "should" win.

I'm not generally in the habit of quoting Donald Rumsfeld with approval, but one of his weird formulations about battlefield intelligence somewhat applies here: we have known knowns, known unknowns, unknown knowns, and unknown unknowns. Performance analysis (the phrase I prefer to sabermetrics) fills up the first quadrant. "Intangibles" probably goes in the second, and the other two I leave to the imagination (call it the realm of the Baseball Gods).

That the Tigers beat the Yankees in the ALDS, or that the 83-win Cardinals will raise a flag at their home opener, doesn't invalidate statistical findings or blunt the predictive power of the metrics going forward. It just indicates that you never know what's going to happen. Were that series played a thousand times, I'm pretty confident that the Yankees would have won more than half, maybe up to two-thirds. Were the 2006 postseason played a thousand times, I frankly doubt the Cardinals would have won it more than 20 or so times.

But the unpredictability, the random element, is part of what makes the game so compelling (if at times infuriating). Nobody here--and with the exception of the brilliant Shore, we're all very, very amateur "sabermetricians"--ever takes the deterministic, almost Marxist view you seem to ascribe to us.

Baseball isn't math; there's no surefire formula to predict performance or pick winners. (If there were, Vegas would have found it by now.) But "math" can help one understand baseball. And whether teams understand and act upon a few simple, well-proven concepts--power hitters with patience are more valuable than singles hitters who don't draw walks, high-strikeout pitchers are more likely to achieve success, teams shouldn't overinvest in unpredictable relief pitchers, most players play their best ball in their late 20s, etc--generally determine how well they do over a course of years. That's all we're saying here.

by dajafi on Feb 12, 2007 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: let's take this on
"I think the issue here is that you misunderstand the point of "sabermetric" analysis. If you read Bill James, Baseball Prospectus, Rob Neyer, the Hardball Times, any of them, they will never--NEVER--state or imply that the teams with "the best stats" are guaranteed to win, or that they "should" win."

Actually dajafi, in 2003, Neyer basically made an ass of himself when he claimed that all the chatter about the Marlins-Yankees series was meaningless, and that it was simple: "the team that gets on base more wins, that's it" (paraphrase).  Of course, in '03 the Yankees got on base more often than the Marlins...and lost.

I tend to agree with the new school approach, but to claim that they don't go over the top (a lot!) is wrong.

by kdon on Feb 14, 2007 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: let's take this on
Isn't this confusing sabremetrics with sabremetricians?  Sure, I could say that since some Catholic Priests molest children, that the whole Catholic church is faulty.  Doesn't make it true (or untrue for that matter).

by jonk on Feb 14, 2007 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

well, like I said...
That was after Neyer went behind their pay wall, so I can't be held accountable for what he might or might not have said ;)

Seriously, I probably should have stuck to what I still read, which is BP. Sheehan is always at great pains to point out that performance analysis is not deterministic, though it can help point us toward what "probably" will happen.

My personal theory is that Someone Up There (maybe that's the wrong direction) doesn't want Big Stein to win any more titles in this life.

by dajafi on Feb 15, 2007 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: I hate the term sabremetrician...
"For instance, if a player is batting .217 but has a slugging percentage of .688 because most of his hits are doubles, triples and homers (Mark McGwire?), is he really helping the team that way?  In some ways, yes.  But I would argue that the low batting average, probable high strikeouts and lack of run production outweighs the benefit of slugging percentage here."

The basic problem here is that you would be wrong - that certain things are not open to interpretation, not a matter of opinion.

If you want to argue about the relative importance of pitching, defense, and offense... or what % of pitching is actually defense... or how to effectively measure defense - those are all valid questions, open for discussion.

But the investigation of "scoring runs" is complete enough that any variance between current beliefs and some cosmically dictated "real" values is negligible.   We KNOW how, and why, teams score runs.  Give anyone with a clue a team's numbers, other than runs scored, and we can tell you with very good precision how many runs they scored.  It's repeatable, it's predictable, and it's accurate.

A big problem, I believe, lies in the difference between "analyzing a team's offense", and "analyzing a team".  If I tell someone the Phillies have a great offense, I'll immediately hear that "it wasn't good enough - they didn't WIN!" or something along those lines.  Then I'll get arguments on strikeouts, and clutch hitting, and "streakiness"/consistency.  It's a ridiculous forest-trees thing; the offense was excellent last year, more than consistent enough, wasn't harmed by strikeouts, and didn't strand too many runners.  The pitching SUCKED.  That is why they didn't win - and haven't won.

by Shore on Feb 12, 2007 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: I hate the term sabremetrician...
Not to upset erf at all, but...

"Very fair analysis and stats can never be discounted, but I believe the point is that it is not the only way to analyze sports.  If that were true, the best teams on paper would win every year, when in fact that often does not happen."

Does the best subjective team win every year?  If what you are looking for is a foolproof method and nobody ever said that they exist.  In fact, the case you illustrate is a perfect example of what we look at as truth.  The best team on paper has a probability to win each game.  The problem is that that probability isn't 100%.  Even the best team has less than a 25% of winning the WS even if they make the playoffs.  

"There are simply too many factors involved in winning a championship to simply look at stats."

I also hate the use of the word "stats" since it refers to all statistics, but that is clearly not what we are talking about here.  The teams with the best sabremetric stats will be the best teams in the league.  On occasion you'll have a 2005 Clevland Indians, but those are anomolies.  

"For instance, if a player is batting .217 but has a slugging percentage of .688 because most of his hits are doubles, triples and homers (Mark McGwire?), is he really helping the team that way?  In some ways, yes.  But I would argue that the low batting average, probable high strikeouts and lack of run production outweighs the benefit of slugging percentage here."

If he is hitting .217 and his OBP is .250, then he isn't likely helping his team as much as his OPS suggests.  However, in the case of Mark McGwire, he is walking a ton and getting on base a ton.  He is likely helping his team a ton as well.  

If you "would" argue that stuff, then why don't you.  Show me how his low batting average equates to a lack of run production?  You may think it makes sense, but that doesn't mean it is true.  See, I want truth here, not perceptions.  And I haven't even said anything about a statistic yet.

"Obviously, guys like Billy Beane have done wonders by focusing on stats like OBPS, but it is not the only factor.  If a blog becomes nothing more than trading stats, what's the point?  Why do you think teams spend so much money on psychological profiles, testing, interviewing and other forms of analysis instead of just looking at stats when drafting/paying for free agents?"

Again, you don't use the term stats correctly.  You presume that any old statistic will do.  No, it is in analyzing the best statistics, arguing why they are so, and then comparing players based on it.  Is it the be all end all?  No.  A player with an OPS of 20 points higher than another player is statistically similiar.  You can then choose which player you want on hair and eye color.  And how much money DO teams spend on this?  Do you know for a fact is it "so much"?  And just because teams do it, are we to believe that is the best way?

"How could the Yankees, with that ridiculous lineup last year, get hammered by the Tigers, who were inferior on paper?  Yes, they had better pitching, but the statistics would probably have favored guys like Jeter, ARod, Sheffield, Matsui, Abreu, Cano and Giambi over guys like Robertson, Rogers and Verlander."

Let me ask you a question.  If the Yankees and Tigers were to replay that series all over again, and you had to pony up 10,000 dollars to bet on one team, who would you bet on and why?  Just because the Tigers won once, doesn't mean they'd win every time.  It's not like the Yankees had a 100% probability to win every game.  Think about this a little analytically.  This falls under the category "Shit happens."

"Part of a blog is to offer opinions, vent frustrations, discuss what you like and don't like about your teams, AND to provide good evidence when discussing an argument.  But if everything is based on science, not only will it be very boring, it won't be very realistic."

Science isn't realistic?  Call Newton, Einstein and Darwin.  Opinions are fine, if you aren't stating a mistruth that many opinions are.  I can opine that the world is flat, but that doesn't mean it is an opinion or true.  And the arguments against statistical analysis are very weak at best.  In fact, I haven't once seen it win.

Btw, if you have gotten this far, two changes that would help out a bit.

  1. Paragraphs.  It makes it a lot easier to read.
  2. "Reply to this comment" I think it is called that.  It drops your comment below the one you are replying to making it easier to read still.

by jonk on Feb 12, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: I hate the term sabremetrician...
Nobody is claiming that analysis of stats (and constructing teams based on such analysis) is about guaranteed 100% success.  That is impossible; after all, even the greatest of all-time great teams still lost 1/3 of their games.  Rather, it is about analyzing and capitalizing on probabilities.  Simply because something may be more probable than not is not guarantee it will actually come to pass (see, e.g., anytime you've suffered a "bad beat" in Texas Hold 'Em).  If you can put your finger on the scales and improve your team's chances by a couple of percentage points, while far from a guarantee that team will win, it does give them a better chance.

by kuff6 on Feb 13, 2007 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

It's anti-intellectualism
People like to make fun of "nerds." What else is new?

I think the more statistically minded baseball fans could do a better job of selling their case though. Like a lot of people, I was first introduced to sabermetrics by Rob Neyer on espn.com. Neyer was a fantastic writer, but also a deeply polarizing one. You either loved him or you hated him because of the way he would be perceived as talking down to the ignorant masses who couldn't grasp the obvious rightness of his point of view.

by taco pal on Feb 12, 2007 10:34 AM EST reply actions  

Re: It's anti-intellectualism
No doubt that baseball, above all other sports, allows for people to be a bit more "geeky." It's one of the things that makes the game great.

However, when people clash with "stat geeks" I don't think it's anti-intellectualism. I consider myself a bit of a baseball stat geek, but not nearly to the point of some people. Those uber stat geeks sometimes bother me because I feel they do it at the detriment of enjoying the game. Isn't that what it's really supposed to be about? I just feel like the game can get over analyzed to the point where the fun of watching it gets sucked out...

Bleeding Green Nation Philadelphia Eagles Blog

by JasonB on Feb 12, 2007 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: It's anti-intellectualism
Who's enjoyment of the game are you concerned about?

by Ace on Feb 12, 2007 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Analysis v. watching
The thing that some critics of us stat geeks don't get is that, for most of us, our analysis is completely separate from our watching the game.  Yeah, we like Bobby Abreu more than we like Abraham Nunez, but when either is up in a key situation, we're cheering hard for him.  And, when either comes through helping the team, we're just as excited.

The analysis is all about what we think the team should be doing to get better.  But, the watching actual games is all about enjoying what is happening at that moment.

by David S. Cohen on Feb 12, 2007 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Analysis v. watching
True, I do think people forget that.
Bleeding Green Nation Philadelphia Eagles Blog

by JasonB on Feb 12, 2007 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: It's anti-intellectualism
You only think the fun of it gets sucked out because you are realizing what you thought you were watching, you really weren't.  Ask any of us if we don't enjoy watching the games.  I watch probably over 130 games a year.  I enjoy every one of them.

I compare it to religion.  If I find a way to prove your religion is wrong, of course going to services ain't going to be fun anymore.

by jonk on Feb 12, 2007 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: It's anti-intellectualism
Not really, but I get your point anyway.
Bleeding Green Nation Philadelphia Eagles Blog

by JasonB on Feb 12, 2007 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: It's anti-intellectualism
It isn't making fun of nerds as much as it is using a term to undercut anything that they say.  It is like when the political right calls Hillary a carpetbagger.  And thus, she has no crdibility in anything she says.  Hey, if you want to hate Hillary because of her political actions, then that is 100% fine.  But making a comment like carpetbagger (and that is just one example) and then to presume anything she says is BS because of it is as wrong as you can get.

Same thing happens with terms like sabremetrician.

by jonk on Feb 12, 2007 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: I hate the term sabremetrician...
Not to kiss ass, but some really interesting perspectives on this original post by jonk, especially dafaji and shore.  One point regarding Shore when you talked about the Phillies offense last year and people complaining about it.  Agreed, they lost because of pitching.  No argument from me.  But one perspective might be consistency.  The Phillies appeared (I could definitely be wrong here) to score runs in bunches if not last year, than in the last few years,(i.e. win two games in a row 11-2 and 9-6 and then score 6 runs over the next three games).  Over a five game span, they scored 26 runs, but may have gone 2-3.  It seems, admittedly, a bit far fetched to go that in-depth, but it does happen.  All teams go through this and I guess it's hard to analyze that deeply.  But that is my point about stats and averages.  They can be misleading. Finally, Shore, I'm confused why you thought my analysis of slugging percentage is wrong.  It may well be, but I didn't understand where you thought my example was wrong.  

by delb3175 on Feb 12, 2007 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

Re: I hate the term sabremetrician...
It doesn't seem far-fetched to go that in-depth. It's been done, many times over, for the past few seasons because this point about inconsistency keeps getting brought up. I think a lot of people who complain about the use of stats don't really understand all that the numbers can tell us. They get hung up on the more popular ones like OPS and think they "know stats." From looking at all the seasons that have ever been played, conclusions have been drawn about what types of things lead to different results. It's not just people throwing out theories.

by Ace on Feb 12, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: I hate the term sabremetrician...
Forgot to add that one of the cool things about stats is that you don't have to just guess at what happened or try and trust a faulty or biased memory. If you know where to look or how to figure it out or have access to Shore, you can find the evidence to see if what you remember is actually correct. Whatever the belief- the Phillies only scored runs in bunches? the bullpen blew a lead in every one of Brett Myers' starts? every other team scores more runs than the Phillies with a runner on third and less than 2 outs? We can know all that and then go from there. It makes for more interesting conversation, not less.

by Ace on Feb 12, 2007 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: I hate the term sabremetrician...
I know we did a couple of brief studies on consistency last year and in 2005.  If I remember correctly, the 2005 team did suffer from inconsistency--too many low run games which were offset statistically by high run games.  But the 2006 Phils were VERY consistent, again, if I remember correctly, the second most consistent or most consistent team in the league.  

What happens with fans is that we WATCH all the Phils games, and we see them go  up and down.  What we don't see is that other teams go up and down as much, or, as was the case last year, even more.  No team scores 5,6,5,6,5,6,5,6,5,4,7,6,5,etc. runs, they all fluctuate a lot more than that, but we THINK other teams are more consistent, because we only see them briefly, or don't care when they get shut-out or one-runned...

Minor league reviews at philliesphans.com. Also check out http://phillychuck.blogspot.com/ for prospect pics and analysis.

by phillychuck on Feb 12, 2007 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

yup
I haven't really given thought to how I'd structure this, but at some point I'd love to spent a few weeks closely following some other team to see how many of the hoary myths surrounding the Phils ("we can't hit rookie pitchers," "our offense is feast or famine," et al)  would show up for them as well.

by dajafi on Feb 12, 2007 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: I hate the term sabremetrician...
"We"=Online Phillies fans--don't remember whether I read it here or at pp.com, or elsewhere.

I thought I did one myself where I compared the Phils standard deviation in runs scored from game to game with all the other teams in the division, but I can't seem to find it.

Minor league reviews at philliesphans.com. Also check out http://phillychuck.blogspot.com/ for prospect pics and analysis.

by phillychuck on Feb 13, 2007 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

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